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Gender & Sexual Orientation of the Soul

Discussion in 'Gurmat Vichaar' started by BHAGATSINGHDAVEER, Sep 30, 2008.

  1. BHAGATSINGHDAVEER

    BHAGATSINGHDAVEER
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    :advocate:
    GUR FATEH JIO!

    I HAVE READ A FEW POSTS ON HOMOSEXUALITY ETC AMONGST SIKHS AND ITS A SUBJECT THAT IS DEBATED BY ALL FAITHS. IT HAS TO BE SAID ITS A TOPIC THAT MOST SIKHS I KNOW REGARD AS UNWORTHY OF DEBATE. MANY SIKHS ADOPT A "BURY YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND AND HOPE THE TOPIC GOES AWAY" APPROACH ! lol!!!

    BY THE WAY DASS IS A PRACTICING HETROSEXUAL & HAPPILY MARRIED WITH 4 KIDS!!(IN CASE PEOPLE THINK I HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN THE TOPIC)

    THE FOLLOWING IS MY OWN HUMBLE AND PERHAPS MISGUIDED VIEW AND THATS THE REASON FOR THE POST! IF I AM WRONG PLEASE CORRECT ME AND DO SO WITH GURBANI PLEASE.

    I WOULD LIKE TO ASK MY LEARNED BROTHERS & SISTERS ABOUT THE SIKH / GURMAT VIEW OF THE FOLLOWING:
    DOES THE SOUL HAVE A GENDER ? DOES IT MEAN THAT A SOUL CAN TRANSMIGRATE TO A MALE OR FEMALE FORM? MY OWN VIEW IS THAT THE SOUL DOES NOT HAVE A GENDER AND THAT WHEN IT TAKES "BIRTH" IN A MALE/FEMALE BODY IT SIMPLY COMPLIES WITH THAT BODY'S BIOLOGICAL OR INSTINCTIVE NEEDS SUCH AS A NEED / ATTRACTION FOR A "MATE" (MALE OR FEMALE)
    IS THERE ANYTHING IN GURBANI THAT TELLS US ABOUT GENDER OF THE SOUL?

    IF THE ESSENCE OF SIKHI IS ABOUT REUNITING THE SOUL WITH THE CREATOR THROUGH SEVA,SIMRAN,& SANGAT DOES SEXUAL ORIENTATION MATTER?

    I HAVE HEARD THE ARGUMENT ABOUT SEX AND SEXUALITY SHOULD ONLY BE USED FOR PROCREATION (MAKING BABIES) BUT COME ON VEERS/BHAN JI'S LETS FACE IT IS THAT REALLY THE REALITY AMONGST "MARRIED" COUPLES EVEN RELIGIOUS ONES?

    I HUMBLY APOLOGISE IF I HAVE CAUSED OFFENCE, THIS NOT MY INTENTION JUST LIKE TO DEBATE ONCE IN A WHILE AND TO LEARN!
     
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  3. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    What is your definition of soul?
     
  4. BHAGATSINGHDAVEER

    BHAGATSINGHDAVEER
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    GUR FATEH VEER!

    HMM INTERESTING QUESTION!,
    LETS GIVE THE DICTIONARY ANSWER FIRST:
    the spiritual, non-physical part of someone or something which is often regarded as the source of individuality, personality, morality, will, emotions and intellect, and which is widely believed to survive in some form after the death of the body; b this entity when thought of as having separated from the body after death, but which still retains its essence of individuality, etc. 2 emotional sensitivity; morality
    I SUPPOSE THAT "ENERGY" WHICH WE KNOW AS SIKHS WILL LEAVE OUR BODY UPON DEATH AND MOVE TO ANOTHER LEVEL OF EXISTENCE.
    SOUL WOULD ALSO BE OUR SPIRITUAL ESSENCE, JUST LIKE A DRIVER/PASSENGER IN A CAR.ONCE THE CAR IS OF NO PHISICAL USE BEYOND REPAIR EG (DEAD) THEY / WE MOVE TO A NEW ONE TO CONTINUE THE JOURNEY.(SORRY IF I'M BEING SIMPLISTIC)

    SAT SRI AKAAL VEER!
     
  5. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    Ok so you define soul to be energy. So does energy have a gender? no.

    That driver in the car analogy doesn't work. Dissecting the car will reveal the driver. Dissecting the body won't reveal the soul.
     
  6. ekmusafir_ajnabi

    ekmusafir_ajnabi
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    DOES THE SOUL HAVE A GENDER ?
    No

    DOES IT MEAN THAT A SOUL CAN TRANSMIGRATE TO A MALE OR FEMALE FORM?
    Yes, and vice versa.

    MY OWN VIEW IS THAT THE SOUL DOES NOT HAVE A GENDER AND THAT WHEN IT TAKES "BIRTH" IN A MALE/FEMALE BODY IT SIMPLY COMPLIES WITH THAT BODY'S BIOLOGICAL OR INSTINCTIVE NEEDS SUCH AS A NEED / ATTRACTION FOR A "MATE" (MALE OR FEMALE)
    Yes, Soul has no Gender. But Gender is selected by the soul

    IS THERE ANYTHING IN GURBANI THAT TELLS US ABOUT GENDER OF THE SOUL?

    Not in plain words. But metaphorically the soul is at times treated as female.

    IF THE ESSENCE OF Sikhi IS ABOUT REUNITING THE SOUL WITH THE CREATOR THROUGH SEVA,SIMRAN,& SANGAT DOES SEXUAL ORIENTATION MATTER?

    No it does not matter. But male are more successful than females. (No dis-respect intended). Seva , Simrat and Sangat alone does not bear fruit.


    I HAVE HEARD THE ARGUMENT ABOUT SEX AND SEXUALITY SHOULD ONLY BE USED FOR PROCREATION (MAKING BABIES)?

    There was an era when Sex and Sexuality was used as a tool for attaining enlightenment. The intention of nature is to keep one busy and occupied in this act. Kam reduces spiritual powers. It has a detrimental effect on the body.


    BUT COME ON VEERS/BHAN JI'S LETS FACE IT IS THAT REALLY THE REALITY AMONGST "MARRIED" COUPLES EVEN RELIGIOUS ONES?
    What happens between couples and what is intended for spirituality are two different things. Our behavior is based on instincts and our Poorav Janam.


    I HUMBLY APOLOGISE IF I HAVE CAUSED OFFENCE, THIS NOT MY INTENTION JUST LIKE TO DEBATE ONCE IN A WHILE AND TO LEARN!

    Some topics cannot be talked about openly in forums for the reason that people of all categories visit these sites. They may or may not be mentally mature to grasp the concept. This was the reason why spiritual teachings were limited to Ashrams where the candidate was personally selected the Master.
     
  7. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
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    Helllo friend, could I humbly ask you not to use caps when posting as it is the equivalent of shouting.

    On the issue.

    The soul has no gender.

    SExual Orientation and reuniting with the creator have no relevance. Men are NOT more successful in this respect, it is just that men are probably more publicised.

    Marriage is about love, and the sexual act is about love. If that sexual act is purely for gratification then it is selfish and is Kaam. Therfore sex is not necessarily about procreation but expression of love. Unfortunately some people get too obsessed with sex, hence Kaam.
     
  8. spnadmin

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    Randip ji

    Thanks for indicating this.

    Men are NOT more successful in this respect, it is just that men are probably more publicised.

    Thanks for pointing out that efforts and achievements of men are more likely to be broadcast. This is characteristic of patriarchies which are more numerous worldwide than other cultural arrangements. In patriarchies the efforts and achievements of men are more likely to be valued as important -- thus, more likely to be broadcast.

    I would also like to suggest that probably there have been fewer women in this category for a similar reason. Over the thousands of years that humankind has sought spiritual enlightenment, the inherent nature of women may not have been valued enough to look kindly on a life of spirituality for them. Whether pressured into marriage and childbearing, or expected to do same through arranged or forced marriages, this was our role. The pursuit of enlightenment -- a ridiculous thought where women were concerned. Women in patriarchies were property of their fathers and then of their husband's families, and their duties fairly well excluded any time free for meditation and simran, and literacy is necessary for sustained dhyann. Gladly we have many historical exceptions in Sikhism, but even here women are culturally discouraged from a spiritual life. Generalizations are always dangerous, but you may agree that this is the general rule.

    What I am noticing nowadays, and only very recently, is more information and more media coverage, especially on the Internet, of women who are gyanni. In a small gurdwara nearby my own neighborhood, there is a woman who is I think a very spiritual individual. Whether she has acheived the "sat" I don't know. But times are changing.
     
  9. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
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    Yes, people like Mary Magdelan, Bebe Nanaki, Mai Bhago, Rabia etc etc are there for us to see in history. There are many many more if people did some research.
     
  10. BHAGATSINGHDAVEER

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    gur fateh jio,

    my heartfelt thanks to all my veer's who have replied to my post.humble apologies for using caps, not quite used to the rules for posting. you have all raised interesting points.

    "ekmusafir_ajnabi"ji please elaborate when you say the soul selects the gender and on what basis as this is something i have not come across.


    So far we mostly agree that the soul has no gender and as my veers have pointed out sexual orientation does not or at least should not matter. the view of much of the sikh "leadership" eg Singh Sahib Vedanti ji etc is at odds with this as (if i am not mistaken) they only last year made statements against "gay" issues such as the right of marriage.

    i will post more about the sikh "leadership" or hierarchy in due course but for now this much will suffice.


    when i was younger i held certain views akin to anti gay this or that and the older i have become the more i have mellowed my stance with the help of sikh philosophy/and a little bit of study into the more spiritual aspects of our faith.

    bul chuk maaf.

    sat sri akaal ji


     
  11. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    There is an interesting contrast with Sikhism in your reply above. I wonder if you realized it. Mary Magdelan was depicted as a loose woman who was rescued by religion, but nonetheless a loose woman. In Sikhism, we point with pride to women of spirit many of whom where wives and mothers. And our janamsakhi relate how the Gurus themselves encouraged the life of spiritual development for women and for men.Many female "sants" in Christianity renounced wordly living to be able to pursue a life of the spirit. In Sikhism our spiritual women are with one or two exceptions also wives, mothers, householders, warriors.

    The historical research would certainly help. As you have raised this point, the names are coming fast and furious.:)
     
  12. ekmusafir_ajnabi

    ekmusafir_ajnabi
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    Deleted

     
    #11 ekmusafir_ajnabi, Oct 1, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  13. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Deletion on my part as well.
     
    #12 spnadmin, Oct 2, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 2, 2008
  14. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
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    I think there were many "loose" men too that were rescued by Sikhism :D

    But nonetheless your point on renunciation stands....in Sikhi we reject such things, but the point I am making is that there are women who reach higher levels of spirituality, but I don't think society were willing to listen to them , due to their social standing.
     
  15. spnadmin

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    Randip ji

    I agree with you. You are zooming in on a pattern that obscures the spirituality of women.

    Do you see it changing?
     
  16. Randip Singh

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    I think we have many Saint today, men and women, but they just quietly get on with it.

    I hope it does stand, but you pick up the average magazine and the woman is still portrayed superficially. For that matter men are in same boat now. Emphasis on external appearance, slim fit bodies>>>>look at Bollywood a prime example, the proliferation of steroids is no accident:

    http://www.currybear.com/wordpress/?p=1659
    Akshay Kumar takes on steroid-pumped Bollywood hunks

    The culture of superficiality is rampant at the moment I am afraid, and the people who actually ttry and make a difference are quietly behind the scenes.

    In Sikhism we are required to develop our mind and bodies, but not because of some superficial nonsense , but to reach higher spritual goals.
     

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