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Free/ Pre-determined Human Will?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by khuram, Oct 31, 2006.

  1. khuram

    khuram
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    Hi Friends. I am new member to this forum and belong to Pakistani Punjab. For my first post on his graceful forum, I have chosen my following article on the topic of Free/ Pre-determined Human Will:

    Free Pre-determined Human Will?

    The question of free will (more precisely the issue of “Jabar-o-qadar”) is not really simple. Once a person asked Hazrat Ali (RA) whether human will was free or not. That person was standing before Hazrat Ali (RA). Hazrat Ali (RA) asked him to upward lift one of his FOOTS. That person did it. Then Hazrat Ali (RA) again asked him to now try to lift the other FOOT at the same time. Obviously that person could not do it. Hazrat Ali then told him that HE WAS FREE IN LIFTING ONE FOOT BUT HE WAS NOT FREE IN LIFTING BOTH THE FOOTS AT THE SAME TIME.
    It is true that we do not come to this world at our own will, neither we shall go in this way. There are many other compulsions also. Our will, actually functions within the framework of its own area of functionality. The area of functionality of will is restricted by the NATURAL COMPULSIONS. Wherever there are natural compulsions, we cannot do the things according to our will. Where there are no such compulsions, we can do the things according to our own will. I have a mind, which considers itself free in its thinking. I have a body, which can follow the instructions of the freethinking of my mind. All what my mind can think by itself, my body may or may not actually perform that thing accordingly. I can think of going to my friend’s home which is located about 5 km from my home. I can think that I can reach his home if I walk towards his home for let’s say half an hour. It means that I want (my will) to go to my friend’s home by walking within half hour. Can I do it? Obviously I can do it. I can do it because the structure of the physical world and of my own body allows me to do it. In this way I did according to my will. My will was what I wanted to do.
    Now consider another case. Now I want to go to my Cousin’s home who lives in USA. I want to reach his home by walking for half an hour. It means that I want that I want to reach the home of my cousin who lives in USA by walking for half an hour starting from my home, which is located in Pakistan. Consider that here I want to do a particular thing. It means that I have a particular will. In this case however the structure of the physical world and of my own body would not let me do it successfully. This is actually the compulsion due to which I cannot successfully act according to my will. So my will is not free in this case. My will is bound by the physical compulsions here.
    Our will is free if it is not bound or restricted by the physical compulsions. And there are so many compulsions to which we all are subject to. For example you cannot touch your elbow of right arm with your own right hand even if you want to do it. There is a physical compulsion, which you can feel when you shall try to do so. Similarly when you speak, you can move only your lower jaw of mouth. You cannot move the upper jaw even if you want. You have the will to move the upper jaw but your this will is restricted by another physical compulsion which you can easily feel. so your will is not free because of being subject to physical compulsions. But you can touch the elbow of your left arm with your right hand whenever you want. What you want is your will. Your this will is not restricted by any physical compulsion. So you can easily do it. Your “will” therefore is free in this case. So our will is free but within a limited functional area.
    A very important point here is that okay we cannot remove many of the physical compulsions BUT WE ARE ABLE TO OVERCOME MANY OF THE PHYSICAL COMPULSIONS USING OUR AVAILABLE SCIENTIFIC TECHNIQUES. For example while standing, I cannot uplift both of my legs at the same time. It is due to the presence of a physical compulsion in the form of gravitational attraction force of the earth. I cannot remove this force. But I however can use some scientific technique through which I shall apply a net positive upward force in order to OVERCOME the downward gravitational force. If I do it, then I would be able to lift both my legs at the same time. I, here have made free my will from a physical compulsion using a scientific technique. In this way I actually have expanded the functional area of my will. Yes! we can expand the functional area of our free will in this way, i.e. by using proper scientific techniques. In old days, humans had many this type of wishes such that they found it impossible to act according to their those wishes due to the presence of physical compulsions. But in the present world, those type of wishes can be easily acted upon. It means that the functional area of the human will has been successfully expanded over time, as a result of the growth in scientific knowledge and techniques.
    Our will is not free in following cases:
    1- Where there are physical compulsions which we cannot overcome using our available scientific techniques.
    2- Where there are physical compulsions which we can never overcome because of having inherent limitations in our knowledge and abilities.
    Our will is free in following cases:
    1- Where there are no any physical compulsions.
    2- Where we can overcome the associated physical compulsions using available scientific techniques.
    3- Where we can overcome the associated physical compulsions by inventing new scientific techniques.
    Another very important thing is that a blind faith in rigid fate results in a pessimist approach. For example USA is the super power in the world whereas Eastern societies have been declined. A person who keeps blind faith in rigid fate would say that it was already decided by the fate. So even if he wants the revival of Eastern societies, he shall not do any effort to correct the situation by trying to overcome the associated physical compulsions. Why should he do any effort whatsoever? Everything, for him, already has been decided by the fate. So what shall be the use of his efforts if the things are pre-decided? As a result this person shall not do any concrete effort in order to correct the situation. At the most he can try to find some means, which can provide him a sort of psychological satisfaction. He, for example, can get the psychological satisfaction by thinking that all what the West knows today was actually told to them by the ancient Muslim or other Eastern scholars and scientists.
    A person who is having the above mentioned scientific outlook that the functional area of the human free will can be expanded with the help of scientific techniques; he shall be optimist in his approach. He shall do concrete efforts with the view to trying to correct the situation. And when he shall get the success, the pessimist person would say, “it was pre-determined by the fate”.
    There is another BIG issue about this topic. It is the question about the nature of “will”. What is this “will” after all? In general terms we can say that what we want is our will. But if we try to investigate the deep meanings of will, it would come out that “what we want” is also determined by many factors. These factors are the structure of the universe and of our own mind. Our wants and desires are actually determined by our surrounding environment and the level and type of education and experience that we get from the society. For example in some parts of the world, people can “want” to eat insects, snakes and lizards etc. We Pakistanis however cannot keep this type of wishes. Why is it so? Surely the difference in type of wishes (types of wills) is determined by the customs, traditions and ideologies of the surrounding environment and cultural forces. Our wants and wishes are actually just a state of our mind. The state of mind is the reflection of the forces of material and cultural environment. The type of material and cultural environment determines the types of our wants and wishes. we feel that we want something. This feeling is just due to our particular state of mind and that particular state of mind is the result of combined forces of material and cultural environment. If the material and cultural environment is changed, the type of wishes also changes. Present day many of Pakistani women keep this wish to not to miss the daily episode of “Saas bhi kabhi bahu thi” (i.e. a TV serial play). Just 50 years back, our women could not keep this type of wishes. The change in wishes (types of will) has occurred because a change in the material as well as cultural environment has been occurred.
    So environmental forces determine the type of wishes and the presence/ absence of physical compulsions and scientific techniques determine which wishes can be successfully acted upon. Therefore human will is free within the framework of its functional area. Functional area however is determined by many factors. Functional area actually provides an opportunity of making new expansions in it. This opportunity can be availed and can be rejected. Optimists avail this opportunity and thus expand the functional area of the human will. Pessimists on the other hand do not avail the opportunity of making new expansions in the functional area. They however do enjoy the benefits of the already expanded functional area due to the effort of optimists. So even if in the final analysis, it seems that the will is actually just determined by environmental forces, even then the role performed by optimists is better than that of pessimists. Even if we cannot find conclusive evidence about free will, still then we should be optimistic in our approach because it is the better way.


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  2. kaur-1

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    Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

    BTW Welcome to the forum.

    I assume when you said that you "belong" to pakistani Punjab, you are a muslim.

    No offense, but your long winded post gave me a headache. Sorry.!:D


    As regards to Scientific facts, Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is way further ahead than what's written in the Koran. And thats a fact.!:)


    As regards to "our women" you meant muslim womens. Yes no equality there for sure.

    You should have watched "Dispatches documentary 'Women only jihad' last night on Channel 4."

    There is a trailer for the programme here
    YouTube - Women Only Jihad

    It was about a bunch of young Muslim women who are trying to force mosques to allow women to worship in them! This must have come as a big surprise to many people that women are not allowed in a mosque. Where they are allowed, the usually have to sit right at the back or in a separate room and not in the main prayer room."

    Maybe you should post your convoluted post on your own religious website.


    BTW, Jap ji sahib on this site is a good start to read about Guru Nanaks teaching on "Hukum" and Will.


    After all, we all have the same light in us. A spark of the Divine Almight Waheguroo Satnaam.

    You really should read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. You definately will be enlightened.


    Boleh So Nihal Sat Sri AKal
     
  3. khuram

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    Sardar Ji ... I say Pakistani Punjab ... just mean my location is situated in Pakistani Punjab. I had written this article as a reply to a Pakistani fellow ... during a written discussion ... so 'our women' mean 'Pakistani women'...

    And I myself am facing difficulty in reading my own article ... bcoz here display width of text is quite narrow.

    Anyways thanks for trying to read it ... and for comments as well.

    Khuram
     
  4. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    GURFATEH

    Bimillah Al Rahman Al Rahem
    in the name of the kind and the merectfull

    Dear Brother Khuram,

    Aslam Alekum(Welfare/peace be unto you).

    As das find that you used term RA with Imam Ali(Razi.) and did not use ALS.That means that you are nearer to Suni brotherhood.Das is happy to know that.

    Das is nearer to you.Das/Banda only want to ask that is there any verse in Holy Book from God,which states that without will of Allah even a leage can not flutter?

    Do yourself have faith in Ahle Bait or Wahadut Ul Wajood?Das finds your talk with some support to Akhtiar going more towards Wahadat al Saboobot (Das could misspell it)side.

    Allah Bless.
     
  5. kaur-1

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    For one thing, I am not a "Sadar ji". If you were based in India occupying part of punjab that actually belongs to the Punjabi's mostly Sikh community, you would know this.!!

    What is your religion? As you have avoided to mentioned it again, I am going to assume again, that you are a muslim.

    I was wondering why you even posted your article of a reply to another muslim on a Sikhi website?

    Do you have a question on Sikhi regarding your conversation with your muslim friend.?

    Like I said before, please read Gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib to help you answer your question. Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji belongs to all mankind.

    Please look at the pictures in:
    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...yrdom-stories-ninth-mahal-guru.html#post47338

    What do you think of "Free Will" there. Is it right for your ancestors to do this to another human being? Is it right to do this to the Sikh Guru's. Why hasnt your religion changed to be more "humanly".

    Was it right to rip Sikh babies and toddlers "guts" outs and hang them around shocked, grieving Sikh mothers.?

    *
     
  6. Jaspal Singh

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    How did he decide to lift first leg? What guided him?
     
  7. khuram

    khuram
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    @ Vijay Deep Singh

    Thanks for pleasant welcome. Here neither I am presenting any religion nor any sect thereof. I have come here to learn rationality, which sikhism must contain. I have presented pure rational views of Hazrat Ali (RA). In the whole article, I just have expanded the rationality of Hazrat Ali (RA). And yes extreme interpretations of Quran ... like those of Imam Ghazali’s do suggest absolute control of Allah's will over all the human affairs. Historically in Islam, belief in absolute pre-determined human will was evolved after the time of Hazrat Ali (RA), the fourth Caliph of Islam. After Hazrat Ali (RA), Caliphate was taken over by Bano-Ommayad rulers. Uptill the time of Hazrat Ali (RA), Muslim community used to choose their next Caliph mainly in such way that prominent Muslim leaders elected the Caliph and then whole Muslim community used to take oath (bait lena) in the hands of newly chosen Caliph. Ommayad rulers discontinued this system and turned the institution of Caliphate into family based dynasty. Ommayad rulers were cruel and used to persecute their people because they were not popular among the masses. So in order to get political control and to just legitimize their rule, Ommayad rulers, with the help of "political Muslim scholars", promoted the belief in pre-determined human will. Their intention was to show that all what was happening around was just because God himself wanted so. Underlying idea was to stop the masses from their protest against rulers by making them believe that Ommayad rule was exactly in accordance with the Will of God. Hijaj bin Yousaf was the Governor of Iraq under the Ommayad rule. Only he had killed hundreds of thousands of his own Muslim people. And it was same Hijaj bin Yousaf who had taken permission from the then Ommayad Caliph to attack on the territory of Sind. As a result, Muhammad bin Qasim, the Army General of Hijaj (and relative also...) defeated Raja Dahir on 711 AD in the territory of Sind and thus founded the Muslim political era in the sub-continent.

    After the fall of Ommayad rule, Caliphate took over by Abbasid rulers. Early Abbasid era is actually the most glorious period of Muslim rationality and enlightenment. A rational Muslim sect named "Al-Mutazillah" emerged during the early Abbasid era. This "Al-Mutazzillah" school of thought rejected the notion of pre-determined human will and emphasized on belief in free human will. Renowned Abbasid Caliph Al-Mamoon Rasheed also adopted this "Al-Mutazillah" faith. It was Caliph Al-Mamoon Rasheed who established "bait-ul-Hikmah" in Baghdad and appointed many Jews and Sabi scholars to translate the great intellectual works of Greeks and Indians. In this way now ground was ready to produce some great intellectual scholars in the Muslim world. Thus the first ever rational Muslim Philosopher i.e. Abu-Ishaq-Yaqub-Al-Kindi was Mutazilli in faith. Later giant Muslim philosophers like Al-Farabi and Ibn-e-Sina just had expanded the work of Al-Kindi in greater depths.

    This Al-Mutazillah faith faced stiff opposition by another school of thought named "Al-Asharism" -- which was founded by Abu-Al-Hassan Al-Ashary who first belonged to Al-Mutazilla school of thought but later on turned against it and founded his own school of thought. Alashrism was in favor of pre-determined Human will. A big attack on belief in free human will come from a later giant Al-Ashray scholar named Imam Ghazali. Imam Ghazali rejected even the cause-effect principle by saying that events occur not because of any underlying physical cause but because God himself directs the events to occur in particular way. As Al-Ashrism assumed political power, they forcefully eliminated the views of Al-Mutazillah by using such means as torturing the Al-Mutazilli scholars as well as burning up their books in fire etc. It was this “Al-Asharism” which later on adopted the name of “Ahl-e-Sunnat-Wal-Jammat” (i.e. its abbriviation is famous “sunni”). This name was adopted with the view to clearly differentiate this sect from “Al-Mutazillah” sect because Al-Mutazillities used to call themselves as “Ahl-e-Adal-Wal-Tauheed”.

    After the elimination of Al-Mutazillah faith, long era of belief in pre-determined human will initiated in Muslim history. After Imam Ghazali, only two renowned intellectuals came from Muslim societies. First was Spanish Ibn-e-Rushd. He was great interpreter of Aristotle and he had served the role of connecting bridge between Muslim enlightenment and Western Enlightenment because Europeans were first familiarized with the views of Aristotle through the Italian translations of Arabic Interpretations of Aristotle by Ibn-e-Rushd. Ibn-e-Rushd is still known in West by the name of Avveroes whereas Muslim society gave no importance to the work of that great intellectual. Second was Ibn-e-Khuldun who came up with his rational interpretation of the process of history. But Muslim society ignored his work too and it was the European scholars of eighteenth century who eventually discovered his great work and realized the importance of it. Under the political control of Al-Ashrism, another class of Muslim scientists i.e. Al-Akhwan-al-Safah had been remained secretly active in Iraq. They secretly published about 56 journals on philosophical and scientific issues. Obviously they also had adopted many things out of the works of great ancient Greek and Indian Scholars. But now over-all Muslim society was under the trance of belief in pre-determined human will. It was mainly due to this reason that then Muslim societies could not give birth to any other great intellectual. In Indian History, it was Sir Syed Ahmed Khan who had tried to promote old Al-Mutazilli views among his contemporary Muslim society.




    Perhaps you wanted to talk about “Wahad-ul-Shahood”. In Indian Muslim history, this view has been emerged quite late … i.e. in the period of Emperor Jahangir. This view however has had far reaching impacts up till the present times. Not only Hindus and Sikhs have been suffered because of this view but common Muslim is also suffering the consequences of this view … because this view has been the founding stone of the emergence of Muslim orthodoxy in the sub-continent. Early Wahdat-ul-Wajoody Muslim Sufis like Khawaja Mueen-ud-Din Chishti and Khawaja Nizam-ud-Din Awliah etc. were Humanitarians, basically. Wahdat-ul-Wajood gives the idea of unity of Creator and creatures and since all creatures share the same divine spirit … so it results in belief in universal brotherhood of humanity. Wahdat-ul-Shahood on the other hand emphasizes on ‘separateness’ of Creator and creatures. As secondary consequence, this ideology ends up in emphasizing of group differences on the basis of religion or even sects. Behavior of Emperor Aurangzeb Alamgir was actually shaped by this ideology of “Wahdat-ul-Shahood”. So basically this view is responsible for the contemporary extremist Muslim behavior.



    @ Kaur-1

    Thanks for clarification regarding my wrong use of ‘Sardar ji’. I am sorry for the wrong usage. Secondly here I am not representing any religion. I am new to this forum. All the terminology of Sikhism is quite new for me. Obviously I shall take some time in becoming familiar to basic and contemporary Sikh ideology.


    Here I have posted an article of mine whose topic is a general issue. The only thing is that originally it was written as a reply to another Pakistani person who was insisting on ‘pre-determined’ human will. But the topic on the whole is on a general issue. If sikhi website does not allow such topics then administrators can delete this post. But since I have posted it in ‘General Philosophy’ section of forum, so I think that forum administrators may allow this topic.

    And I have no any such question. I just had told you what meaning of “our women” … in the article had. I had told you that meaning of “our women” was just “Pakistani women” … who are really very fond of watching Indian Drama serial “Saas Bhi Kabhi Bahu Thi” … on daily basis.

    And thanks for referring me to other important thread of the forum. Obviously I am going to read that thread now. As I have said earlier, I am quite new to Sikhism terminology, so I may take some time in becoming familiar to it.

    Secondly, I know Emperor Aurangzeb Alamgir had tortured and killed innocent Sikh babies. Emperor Aurangzeb also had killed his own Sufi type brother Dara Shiko. This is also a fact that Aurangzeb Alamgir is still a hero for many Extremist Pakistani Muslims. But I myself am quite helpless before the mighty power of those extremists. In my assessment, Muslim extremism shall further grow in near future and it can lead to more miseries and chaos.

    May we all feel the light of rationality and wisdom!

    Thanks
     
  8. khuram

    khuram
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    @ Jaspal Singh

    Apparently it was his rationality, which guided him so....
     
  9. kaur-1

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    Dear khuram

    As the heading indicated under General philosophy:
    "Explore relationship between Sikhism and other philosophies under this section only."

    It wasnt clear what exactly in your muslim philosophy article you were trying to explore with in Sikhi. Your post was rather a ramble hence the headache. Apologies.

    To tell you the truth, I believe that the scared and factual writtings in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are the only way for a human being to live their existance in this human form, the way Waheguroo wanted us to.

    This also means to mingle with Gurmukhs, Gursikhs ie mingle with the right company to enhance ones spirituality.

    BTW, I dont speak for all the Sikh members in SPN. This is my personal view.

    There are too many negative, distorted and inaccurate recordings in the holy books of other religions. (Your article proves some of this distorted recordings)

    Therefore, I advise you to read Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. You need answers to human will questions or any other questions, they are in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

    Another thing I will also inform a muslim (again I dont speak for other Sikh members here, this is my personal view), from history to date, its a well know fact that muslims cant be trusted.


    Facts: from a horses mouth:=

    "but in Quran in al Taqqiyaa it is allowed for us to lie to non muslims to show them the goodness of islam"

    The word "al-Taqiyya" means: "Concealing or disguising one's beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and strategies at a time of eminent danger to save oneself from physical or mental injury." A one-word translation would be"Dissimulation." In Arabic the translation would be "hypocrisy in the pursuit of a greater purpose."

    Thats is why I am extremely suspicious and dubious of what a muslims says or writes. Sorry.

    Personally, my aim is to only explore "THE TRUTH", the "SAT", THE TRUE NAAM as writtened in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

    Reading and contemplating Gurbani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is enough for me. I know enough about other religions to know that its a total waste of my precious time to contemplate on what their holy books are saying.

    Sikhs have a priceless gem in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. The Guru is "in" the bani, talking to us, advising us, guiding us. Praises to Waheguroo are in this precious bani too.

    Personally I rather look the Guru's direction then in any other.
    The secret of human existance in this Kajug is in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.


    For eg see: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/47474-post1.html
    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/47369-post1.html
    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/47339-post1.html
    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/47197-post1.html

    And many more under Gurbani Vichaar


    I hope soon with Waheguroo's Kirpa, I will be an "Ideal" person. That is what Sikhi wants a human being to achieve. Being an Ideal human being. As in the english dictionary "An excellent or perfect example of something or somebody, or something that is considered a perfect example"

    But this doesnt mean that other SPN members cant put forward their views.
     
  10. khuram

    khuram
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    @ Kaur-1

    Sir/ Madam,

    I am not here for any religious discussion. Name of this forum is "Sikh Philosophy". I had found this forum on google search. My search terms were "Indian Philosophy". I respect your views about Sikh and Islam religions. As I said ... I have no intention of not reading the teachings of Sikhism. I believe in picking up the light of wisdom ... wherever it is found. I do not believe that all the light is restricted to my own culture or religion. I even cannot fully express myself before my religion fellows. I am very much different from them. I have my opinion regarding speaking of truth or lie on different occassions. But I would never like to tell lies with the view to spread my religion ... even if my religion really has given such directions. At the same time ... I do think that sometimes we have to tell lies. For example if my less wicked lie could save someone from grave loss ... then I should speak lie ... Or I can keep sielence on that matter etc.

    And with a complete raw mind, it is difficult for me to understand the depths of Sikh leader's views. So I shall be thankful if you tell me something about his teachings in a simple and summerized way. After it, it shall be easy for me to read those threads at my own.

    Thanks
     
  11. Ishminder

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    Kaur-1, I think khuram presents a good point there and its a question that should be looked into. Even in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, there is some controversy as to how much free will we really have. Although it is written that everything is in Hukam, and we have no "jor", there is also written that karmi apo apni, ke nere ke door. There really isn't a simple answer as to how much free will we have, if we have any, and it is something to be looked at...whether you read the Guru Granth Sahib Ji or the Quran. Also, my personal belief is that muslims are just like people...and if we create a line as to which religion can be trusted and which cannot, we have not learned anything from our gurus. We must remember that the Quran was not written by Prophet Muhammad so there is some chance of certain things not making sense, or maybe we did not even get the proper picture. In the same case, our Dasam Granth, which has been widely accepted, has some lines which contradict Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Dasam Granth was also not written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji, rather many years after his demise. If you like, I'd be more than glad to send you an attachment of the Dasam Granth Debate which shows how it actually came into place and what proof we have. I also request that before we go passing judgement to other people as to what they should read or not, we should read the quran and decifer for ourselves, because as written in Rehraas Sahib (or Kirtan Sohila) any religion that makes god great is good. Please feel free to critisize wherever you thought I was wrong.
     
  12. kaur-1

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    Thanks for your first ever post on this site. Yes I agree that we all have the spark of the divine in us.

    As regards to getting the real picture of the Quran. No thanks to that. My views on Islam and their method of teachings still stand as per my previous post.

    Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji has authentic recordings of Guru's divine words (Guru ki bani), I dedicate myself to just those divine words.

    I dont see why I should "muddle" by brain with semi-factual words of other holy books.


    No thanks to the Dasam Granth attachment. There is an eddict passed to not argue over this issue. And I stand by that.

    As regards to reading the koran or bible, my previous post on this stands.

    Sikhs have a precious jewel in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and thats the only direction I will spent my energy on.

    As regards to what people should read or not: - as this is a Sikh forum site and I am a Sikh, I would obviously promoted the reading of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.
     
  13. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh

    Bimillah Al Rahaman Al Raheem,

    Bro das is realy happy to have you with here.And das will try to bring in one of his Nirmala brother someday who has been rather too much aligned to Shias and das does not like his(this Nirmala Brother) too much of something putting Sunni ideas as not OK.Das thinks that yourself could help das to counter the claims made by this Shia brother.

    coming to another doubt.

    As per Hanifi Sunnni school,They talk about a sort of Iron plate on which whole life is wriitan in advance about any hummand being.Das appriciateis your comments.


    Das anyway has seen Shias more talking about humand will while sunnis as all predestained.

    Das will talk about rationaity in Gurmat(das finds it more like 73rd Shara of Islam only) only a bit over here.


    If das is not mistakne should rationality is meant by some thing which could be explanied logiaccly?

    If it is so then as per scince we have only reached very little while Last Prophet(SWAS) did made some theroy of scines as [part of the faith.

    Like as world is round so in any dierction there is a smal or great circle which paaases from a person and to holy Mecca and that symbolisis Great Allah in all direction.Das could be wrong but will try to study more and as Rasol(SWAS) told need to go till China to get knwoledge.
     
  14. singhmanveer

    singhmanveer
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  15. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    There are many sites that deal with sikhism and sikh philosphy only. You may as well refer to the various posts that are posted on this forum so that you get acquainted with the basics.
    All thread are yours once you are a member of site. Self learning is the best way to learn new things.
     

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