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Sikh News FINAL RIFT: Ravidassia shrines shift out Guru Granth Sahib saroops

Discussion in 'Breaking News' started by kds1980, Jul 19, 2009.

  1. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    Ravidassia shrines shift out Guru Granth Sahib Saroops
    WSN Bureau

    [​IMG]
    Saroops of Sri Guru Granth Sahib
    being shifted in Vienna

    For centuries, Bhagat Ravidass’ bani was preserved and celebrated because the Sikh Gurus included it in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. For centuries, Sikhs everywhere in the world have been bowing their heads before the scriptures that contain this bani of Bhagat Ravidass. For any Sikh, the Gurbani has the status of the Guru, and Sikhs seek guidance from this Living Guru.

    Now, followers of Bhagat Ravidass, who call themselves Ravidassias, are shifting out the Guru Granth Sahib from their shrines, thus making a permanent departure from the world’s fifth largest and youngest religion. In shrine after shrine, the Ravidassia sect authorities are either shifting the scriptures out or are telling the local Sikhs to take away the holy volume.

    In a most peculiar reaction, and one that may possibly not go down too well with the proud Sikh community, the SGPC president Avtar Singh Makkar is flitting from one leader to another to convince them that they should not shift out the Sikh scriptures.
    In the absence of any debate within the Sikh community (Most Sikhs, in fact, are shocked at the reaction of the Ravidassia sect), and with Makkar’s efforts largely propelled by an intention to save his boss Prakash Singh Badal from any unsavoury controversy, he does not seem to be succeeding.

    But even as such behind the scenes bids to patch the rift for some time continue, Birs of Sri Guru Granth Sahib were shifted out from six Ravidass temples in Italy.
    In Vienna too, the Saroop of Sri Guru Granth Sahib have been shifted out by the Ravidassia sect from Sri Guru ravidass Sabha, Vienna shrine. Bhai Narinder Singh of the Vienna gurdwara received the Saroops and despite the provocative step, he said in his Ardaas that those believing in the teachings of the Sikh Gurus and of the Bhagats must not let negativity rule their thoughts and lives. He even thanked those who had come to the gurdwara to hand over the birs. Hundreds of Sikhs were present when the Saroops were handed over.

    [​IMG]
    Prakash Singh Badal and Sukhbir Singh Badal paying obeisance before the portrait of the slain leader of the Ravidasias.

    The trigger for the rift was the shooting incident in Vienna where a group of Sikhs attacked the leaders of the Sachkhand Ballan Ravidassia sect who encouraged followers to touch their feet in the presence of Guru Granth Sahib, a practice considered anathema by the Sikhs. The incident was followed by widespread violence in Punjab.
    Interestingly, and ironically, the SGPC president despite his best efforts failed to even set up a meeting with Dera Sachkhand Ballan and Sri Guru Ravidass Sadhu Sampardai President Nirmal Dass. Makkar visited the dera in Ballan and also Nirmal Dass’ dera in village Rasoolpur last Thursday and efforts have been made ever since to speak to the dera head. But so far only dera incharge Surinder Dass Bawa talked to him on the issue.

    Significantly, Dera Ballan had made a clear departure from the tradition during the Antim Ardaas of Sant Ramanand, deputy head of the dera who was killed in a Vienna temple on May 24, by not organizing any Akhand Path and not having Prakash of Guru Granth Sahib in the religious function held on June 13.

    Sikhs consider it surprising that even within the Ravidassia sect, little debate has taken place about their relations with the Sikh community and one wonders if the leaders have thought the implications of distancing themselves from a heritage earned over centuries, that too belonging to a community that accords great respect to Bhagat Ravidass ji.
    The latest move seems to be a peculiar way of identity assertion by the Adharmi community.
    15 July 2009
     
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  3. Hardip Singh

    Hardip Singh India
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    No problem to us in Sikhism from this act. A day will come and they will relise the mistake they had made. It was due to our reverened Gurus that Bhagats got their fair place with due respect in the religious history of India. The respect to Bani of Bhagat Ravidass jee, which it had recieved from our Gurus donot have any parallels. god bless them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  4. ISDhillon

    ISDhillon
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    This article is strange. This is exactly what we want to happen from all places which have a dehdari guru installed. How can you have 2 gurus in one place? it does not make sense. The ravidassia community should have never installed SGGS in the "temple". I would not worry about separation from the ravidassia community this act should strengthen ties with the ravidassia community and the sikhs as they have showed respect.

    I think we as sikhs misunderstand that the inclusion of bani of a bhagat in SGGS does not mean that we "share" our guru with members of the bhagats community, there is a place called the gurdwara where all humans can go to but if people need "more" than this they have to produce their "own" and i cannot go to such a place because it is not universal. Jatts incur alot of criticism from dalits about control of gurdwaras but i have yet to see a gurdwara being named after a jatt bhagat.

    please see this link:

    YouTube - Motive Behind Punjab Riots 24-25 May

    This individual and her views need not come near my guru.

    Thanks,

    Indy
     
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  5. Hardip Singh

    Hardip Singh India
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    Dear Brother Indy jee,
    Pl refer to the news on todays first page of Punjabi Tribune. It says that they had changed the basic name of all their religious places from Gurdwaras or Ravidass Gurdwaras to 'Aaad Duwaree'. Moreover, they had denounced their relationship with us (Sikhs) by installing their latest book or granth called " Sri Aaad Parkash Ratnaker Granth' instead of SGGS which they were doing till date. Copies of this granth has been printed both in Punjabi and hindi and things are being arranged to send these copies to all over world to their sect's religious places in order to install insted of SGGS.
    Really bad news.
     
  6. ISDhillon

    ISDhillon
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    Dear Hardip Ji,
    Why is this bad news?, what did you want from these people? people have the freedom to practice "their" religion, "they" were changing our religion previously to satisfy their ego, people who constantly need societies-acceptance will now find self-acceptance in their new found religion.

    If we look a black churches in america we can see the difference in preaching under the banner of christianity, our religion was also heading for the same difference but now sikhism has freed itself from such harm and by doing so has given them more honor if they see themselves as unique they maybe able to give greater mobility to their own community which was not happening in sikhism as they did not see sikhism as their own.

    You see the problem here is not that sikhism has become caste orientated, the problem is that under the current reality and times we live in, society causes groups and identities to become more self-conscious, well sikhism rejects this as attachment and ego, the ravidassia community does not want to be a part of sikhism it wants to be a part of "itself" because of individual freedoms, and this is not a sikh trait but a choice resulting from the human condition when adapting to freedom. American white sikhs were free a long time before the ravidassias were and they do not feel the need to separate, the test of freedom and its general birth pangs amongst the ravidassias community will be a short lesson i sincerely believe this new religion will be short lived and the next generation won't identify with any community simply because religion just wont be that important.
     
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  7. Kuldeep Singh Anand

    Kuldeep Singh Anand
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    Every religion have its own codes and conducts,which have to be kept in mind while taking directions from others religion and using their themes for one's own school of thoughts, if that are not taken careof, ill things could be happened. Sikhs have no person suprime than "Sh. Guru Granth Sahib Ji" who is full of complete knoledge of God ,its reality could not be challanged and like a Mile stone gives right direction to any one who wants to learn something in this regards. Thanks to Shri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Ji's Who have saved us from so called modern Kami,land grabers,mayadharies Guru's, It is good if they could not give due respect to shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji it is better to place them in Gurudwaras.
     
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  8. AusDesi

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    I don't see why it would be a problem for Sikhs. Ravidassis consider themselves different already. Infact, I think removing the SGGS while a stange act considering they've had it in their deras for 100s of years is actually better for them. The reason is that once with SGGS is removed Ravidassis are well and truely free of any other religion.
     
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  9. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    The loss is that of Ravidassias not Sikhs. Because their children and generations to follow
    will have no chance to read the SGGS.
    They will be confined to Bhagat Ravidass's bani only, like Kabir Panthis.
     
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  10. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    A clarification with the indulgence and patience of the forum. Kabir Panth is multi-denominational. Kabir Panthis come from many different religious paths to worship as Kabir Panthis, as Kabir Panth is not a religion but is a worldwide organization for structured gathering and worship, with a leadership, and a framework for worship. But one does not give up one's religion to worship in this panth. Muslims, Hindus, Christians and others join as the panth periodically for prayer and devotion. So they add the granth of Kabir to pre-existing scriptures of their own religion.
     
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  11. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    To be honest it will be a loss for both.sikhism will loose many ravidaasia which could become good sikhs in future. while many ravidaasia's will come under the fold of christiany,islam and hinduism .So it is a loss of both side's
     
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  12. roab1

    roab1
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    Ravidasi were like a cancer in the body of Sikhi. It's good they have themselves gone away thereby giving Sikhs the opportunity of not taking a hard and painful decision. My friends father was denounced by his 'super-rich' grandfather becoz he had cut his hair in 80's. Older generation Sikhs didn't care about losses or loosing numbers, they cared more about piyaar, sharda and rehit. And Sikhi flourished well under them. Ravidasis now are another hindu group based on myths and legends, which are not historically true. When historians will write history they won't know what to write about them. It is better they are gone, otherwise they would have spoiled Sikhi. A bad fish makes the whole pond dirty. Thank god the fish is out of water.
     
  13. AusDesi

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    roab1 ji,

    They are not a hindu group and will never be one.
     
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  14. Hardip Singh

    Hardip Singh India
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    But as per the law of the Indian state, they remain a Sikh-sect under the religion heading of ' Hindu' in the Indian constitution. Media also clearly projects them as a Sikh-sect only. It is not easy to demarcate them clearly. Law of the land had to be changed which we as Sikhs could not got done even after sixty years. We still remain partr of Hindus as per the law. Irony of the fate and due to our great panthic leaders!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
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  15. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Roab1 ji

    I am not sure if you realize how your post reads to some people. Do you understand that some of this "rift" comes from generations of hatred that is fueled by statements such as "Ravidasi were like a cancer." Ravidasi are in the main Dalits, already for centuries on the margins of society, then working their way toward the center, and now called a "cancer." Sikhism one would think can preserve its principles (such as keeping hair) and can do that from a position of spiritual confidence, so that it is not even necessary to say "a bad fish makes the whole pond dirty." This kind of language reflects a fixation on purity that is part and parcel of caste consciousness. We should be free to state our dislike of Ravidassi practices. And Ravidassi should feel free from rank hatred. If this kind of rhetoric does not stop neither will the dera shootings nor the riots nor the upheaval in Punjab. Do you really want this kind of thing to go on endlessly? Please don't say Yes because that is the only way to return control of Punjabi to .....and finish anyway you like. That would be a personal tragedy.
     
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  16. roab1

    roab1
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    yes i know my post may sound offensive and a bit harsh to some or many people. But i am not a politician or need to be political correct. I will change my statement to 'those ravidasi who are doing this act were/are a cancer to Sikhi'. Regardless of how they are potrayed in Media, ravidasi were never Sikh. And violence has been in society since society came into being. It is eternal and will remain as long as man walks on this earth.

    Truly you have stopped just a step short of receiving a one and only warning from me. Be cautioned, Narayanjot Kaur.
     
  17. harbansj24

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    It is this sequence that is distressing. First the lower cast Sikhs were no different from all the Sikhs. Then they established their Gurdwaras and called themselves as Ravidassiss and they have formally severed that link too.

    It is distressing because we the mainstream Sikhs have failed to shed our caste bias in spite of the fact that one of the main tenets of Sikhism is that we will not practice caste ism. Unknowingly or otherwise we have failed in this aspect.

    So I think t:welcome: we should all get together and see what can be done so that Sikhism does not become a religion of elite castes only.


    .
     
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  18. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    Sikhs had never given equal status to Ravdasis anyway. Why ? Because of caste problem.
    Although Sikhism does not believe in castes but from past behavior patterns, the 'lower caste' people
    have been observed to be lacking in general cleanliness, as a result, many Gurdwaras have had their cups and plates
    separated out and labeled unhealthy for general use.

    This has been ingrained in upper caste society from time immemorial.
    Although this fact is far from the truth today, but the psychological rift has been created in the minds long ago.
    So my question is how can this misunderstanding be cleared. We need to get down to the bottom of this matter.
    They are not our enemies, they are not very far from Sikhi. The problem mainly lies in our attitude towards them.
     
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  19. AusDesi

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    Im not talking about Indian constitution. Hinduism exists outside of India. Religiously and Culturally, Ravidas religion is not part of Hinduism.

    Though they take things from hinduism like Aarti and many other things, they also take alot from Sikhism. Infact, the only thing that has made Ravidas religion survive is the fact that Lower caste sikhs joined it en masse.

    In addition, the consitution of India was actually headed by a Dalit Buddhist who started a Buddhist sect whose core is to denounce hinduism. However, that doesn't change the fact that Sikhism is under Hindu religion. That should be changed. I have no reason to say Sikhism should be part of Hinduism. Infact, I wonder how many times a Sikh will be the PM of the country. This is the best time to do it.

    PS - I say "Lower Caste Sikhs" in cultural terms not religious. I know that Sikh religion and SGGS denounce castecism.
     
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  20. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Sadh Sangat,

    A lot of people have expressed their views about the above event. Allow me to add my 2 cent worth and stir the pot a bit more.

    We all know that SGGS is our ONLY GURU bestowed upon us by our Dasam Pita Guru Gobind Singh ji. Keeping this in mind and our only benchmark, there can not be anyother Guru, either in the scriptural form as SGGS is, nor in a personified form as our Gurus were.

    In other words, there can not be any Dehdhari Guru which can either subsitute SGGS or be considered equal to our ONLY GURU, SGGS.

    Anyone from any creed, hue or faith can buy, download Gurbani which is in SGGS and study it and I am sure after they have begun to do that, it would be like tasting mangoes, if one had never tasted them before.

    Chanting and or listening to Gurbani in the poetic/musical form, the way it is originally written makes us dance from the within. It breaks our inner walls. It makes us come out of our self created cocoons. Finally it makes the bubble burst and makes us free from our own self created shackles. We feel liberated sans any sham defences behind which we hid ourselves from us for so long. One gets hooked on to this like a junkie, in a positive sense.

    Once, when we get liberated and are free atlast, then we are open to understand what the message of Gurbani is. This freedom eventually makes us accept the message as the healing ointment on our self inflicted wounds.

    Once we accept the message and start practicing it in our everyday life, then we do not only feel free but live free. The sacrifices of our Gurus have taught us the cost of freedom.

    When we live free then death is not a fear anymore as in most of the dogmatic religions but a welcome sign. Gurbani teaches us to see our lives through the lens of pragmatism so that we can live our lives with our full potential. This is the miracle of freedom.

    So, any sects like Radasoamis, Namdhari, Nirankaris, Ravidasis, Kabirpanthis etc. etc., that use SGGS as a sweet bait ( like Mithai) to attract flies should invent their own Granths. Let us see how well they write. Let them invent their own baits to attract the flies.

    What Ravidasis did is a good stepping stone and a warning to all other sects who have Deh Gurus and SGGS in their Deras.

    As mentioned above, they use SGGS as a sweet bait to attract the flies. In other words, they MISUSE it which is blasphemy and disrespect to our only GURU.

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  21. ISDhillon

    ISDhillon
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