Fear Of God

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

Thanks for your posts and the reference
"Akath Kahani Prem Ki, Kutch Kahi Na Jaye
Goonge Keri Sarkara, Baithe Muskae."

I cannot imagine someone smiling while experiencing love but in fear.
God is without fear. Why should HE inject His beloved ones with fear?
I have also not found any Vaak from Gurdev singing the coexistence of love and fear.

The first post of this thread is this.
suriq hovY piq aUgvY gur bcnI Bau Kwie ] (18-3, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
Surati happens. Honor blossoms. Through the spoken Gur one consumes Bhao.

This is unimaginable that through Gur Bachanee fear fills one completely.

I feel the translation provided 'Intuitive understanding is obtained and one is welcomed with honor, through the Guru's Word, filled with the Fear of God' is not convincing.

Truth is that through the Gur speech one realizes the true Sabad.
Please listen. Guru Naanak Jee is singing.
gur bcnI scu sbid pCwqw ]
"gur bachanee sachu sabadi pachhaataa." SGGS Ang 154-6

Is Gurdev singing totally the opposite here? Please ponder.
hAu mnu qnu dyvAu kwit gurU kAu myrw BRmu BAu gur bcnI Bwgy ]
"ha-o manu tanu dayva-u kaati guroo ka-u mayraa bharamu bha-u gur bachnee bhaagay." SGGS 172-2


Balbir Singh

 

[Sikh80]

Dear sir,
I have gone thru. the above post. How can one develop devotion with out fear? God is all love. He has given us that we need to be with HIM and that is the aim of Life as well. If we cannot be with HIm we will be below the expected level of purity and spirituality. Hence we should have HIS blessings and Grace to be out of this rut of Incarnations.If we could not achieve it, we have wasted this life. We get devoted to HIm for seeking HIS blessings so that we attain the level of purity. The fact that we may or we may not get that level should bring in enough fear in me that I try to follow my Gurus and do all that is expected Of a sikh [Nitnem and practising all that is prescribed ].I think we mortals have enough cause to be afraid of HIM that we may fail in the examination of life. It is this way that I have developed the concept.
Regarding your observation that Guru sahibs have not said so, the entire thread is full of quotes from SGGS ji.Still if you need you may go thru. the 'tuks' as provided.
Naam jap, simran,meditation, Going to Gurudwara and listening to HIS praises are to develop Love for HIM.

Regards.
E&OE

 

[Sikh80]

I am providing the following Lines of SGGS ji as a proof as to we should have Fear Of Almighty as an essential ingredient. I do remember that in some of my thread you have quoted this as 'Bakwaas'. But it matters a little. We are learner and that we shall be till we fade away into oblivion after some time.
****************************
Bau Kwxw pIxw AwDwru ] (151-11, gauVI, mÚ 1)
Let the Fear of God be your food, drink and support.
ivxu KwDy mir hoih gvwr ]3] (151-11, gauVI, mÚ 1)
Without doing this, the fools simply die. ||3||

 

[spnadmin]

Sikh80 ji

You are developing a topic that has interested me too. For the sake of discussion -- Could it me that fear of God could mean "awe" rather than "fear" as we normally use the world? We are struck by "awe" rather than "frightened". In other words, our "awe" in the face of the greatness of God brings us to our knees and causes us to reconsider our relationship to the Almighty.

Balbir makes an excellent point - love that is colored by fear is not truly love. But one can be in awe of the One whom we love.

 

[Sikh80]

Yes aad ji,

We are entering into the virgin land of semantics that in itsef is an interesting area of discussion.however, at present you seem to have snubbed me with your superior knowledge of language.
Let us look at the meaning of the two words as is given in the dictitionary that is in the right side Drawer of my writing Table. Let us see how it provides an interpretation. You may kindly go throw it.I am giving below the analysis of Awe and Fear.

awe
n.
1a mixed feeling of reverence, fear, and wonder, caused by something majestic, sublime, sacred, etc.
2[Archaic] the power of inspiring intense fear or fearful reverence
3[Obs.] terror; dread
vt.
awed, aw#[ing to inspire awe in; fill with awe
stand (or be) in awe of to respect and fear

SYN.—awe refers to a feeling of fearful or profound respect or wonder inspired by the greatness, superiority, grandeur, etc. of a person or thing and suggests an immobilizing effect; reverence is applied to a feeling of deep respect mingled with love for something one holds sacred or inviolable and suggests a display of homage, deference, etc.; veneration implies worshipful reverence for a person or thing regarded as hallowed or sacred and specifically suggests acts of religious devotion; dread, as it comes into comparison here, suggests extreme fear mixed with awe or reverence [a dread of divine retribution]


fear
n.
1a feeling of anxiety and agitation caused by the presence or nearness of danger, evil, pain, etc.; timidity; dread; terror; fright; apprehension
2respectful dread; awe; reverence
3a feeling of uneasiness or apprehension; concern !a fear that it will rain"
4a cause for fear; possibility; chance !there was no fear of difficulty"
vt.
1[Obs.] to fill with fear; frighten
2to be afraid of; dread
3to feel reverence or awe for
4to expect with misgiving; suspect !I fear I am late"
vi.
1to feel fear; be afraid
2to be uneasy, anxious, or doubtful for fear of in order to avoid or prevent


SYN.—fear is the general term for the anxiety and agitation felt at the presence of danger; dread refers to the fear or depression felt in anticipating something dangerous or disagreeable [to live in dread of poverty]; fright applies to a sudden, shocking, usually momentary fear [the mouse gave her a fright]; alarm implies the fright felt at the sudden realization of danger [he felt alarm at the sight of the pistol]; terror applies to an overwhelming, often paralyzing fear [the terror of soldiers in combat]; panic refers to a frantic, unreasoning fear, often one that spreads quickly and leads to irrational, aimless action [the cry of “fire!” created a panic]

Fear looks to be slightly inferior as compared to awe inso far as it generates lower feelings like anxiety, agitation. Awe gives some room for a feeling of fearful or profound respect or wonder inspired by the greatness, superiority, grandeur, etc. of a person or thing and suggests an immobilizing effect.

The chances are that I would be only 50 percent with you till I have understood the meaning Of both the words and its implications in the context. One reason the Fear is used in Translations is that it is fairly simple meaning word.

 

[spnadmin]

Yes aad ji,

We are entering into the virgin land of semantics that in itsef is an interesting are of discussion.however, at present you seem to have snubbed me with your superior knowledge of language.
Let us look at the meaning of the two words as is given in the dictitionary that is in the right side Drawer of my writing Table. Let us see how it provides an interpretation. You may kindly go throw it.I am giving below the analysis of Awe and Fear.

Dear Sikh80 -- Did I offend you? I did not mean to do that at all, but rather was taking your ideas and responding to them.

The analysis of "awe" and "fear" is an excellent strategy. What I get from your analysis is that "awe " can include the idea of "fear". But "fear" doesn't seem to include the idea of "awe".

Also, you have taken a very original approach that helps to sort things out. While you were doing your research on the English language, I was looking at the words used in Gurmukhi for awe and fear in SGGS. What I found was that there are several words that can mean "awe" and several that can mean "fear". Not just one word for either. And "bao" "bhao" "bau" "bhau" have been use to mean both "awe" and "fear".

To make things more complicated:

ਕੈਸੀ ਆਰਤੀ ਹੋਇ ॥ਭਵ ਖੰਡਨਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਆਰਤੀ ॥
kaisee aarathee hoe || bhav khanddanaa thaeree aarathee ||
What a beautiful Aartee, lamp-lit worship service this is! O Destroyer of Fear, this is Your Ceremony of Light.
​

The One whom we fear, is the Destroyer of Fear. A wonderful concept!

This is why translation is so tricky. Let's keep at this. And forgive me if I offended you.

 

[Sikh80]

Yes aad ji,

We are entering into the virgin land of semantics that in itsef is an interesting area of discussion.however, at present you seem to have snubbed me with your superior knowledge of language.
Let us look at the meaning of the two words as is given in the dictitionary that is in the right side Drawer of my writing Table. Let us see how it provides an interpretation. You may kindly go through it.I am giving below the analysis of Awe and Fear.

Dear Sikh80 -- Did I offend you? I did not mean to do that at all, but rather was taking your ideas and responding to them.

The analysis of "awe" and "fear" is an excellent strategy. What I get from your analysis is that "awe " can include the idea of "fear". But "fear" doesn't seem to include the idea of "awe".

Also, you have taken a very original approach that helps to sort things out. While you were doing your research on the English language, I was looking at the words used in Gurmukhi for awe and fear in SGGS. What I found was that there are several words that can mean "awe" and several that can mean "fear". Not just one word for either. And "bao" "bhao" "bau" "bhau" have been use to mean both "awe" and "fear".

To make things more complicated:

​

​

ਕੈਸੀ ਆਰਤੀ ਹੋਇ ॥ਭਵ ਖੰਡਨਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਆਰਤੀ ॥
kaisee aarathee hoe || bhav khanddanaa thaeree aarathee ||
What a beautiful Aartee, lamp-lit worship service this is! O Destroyer of Fear, this is Your Ceremony of Light.​

The One whom we fear, is the Destroyer of Fear. A wonderful concept!

This is why translation is so tricky. Let's keep at this. And forgive me if I offended you.

First Of all I want to make it clear that I am not at all offended, as there is no reason for this.
Yes, we shall discuss this at length. However, The destroyer Of fear [Bhao/v Khandana] is always The Creator if we completely surrender to HIM.
Thus we shall have only ONE to be afraid of or to be in awe of.[which ever word fits in]. I am also inclined to agree to use/prefer to the word 'awe' instead .But Fear is more commonly employed word, hence the reason for continuing with it one because of its proximity to the exact meaning of the word and the other because of simplicity.
E&OE
We have both choices to use.

 

[spnadmin]

Sikh80

Glad you decided to continue the discussion. And very happy that I didn't say something that hurt you. These are the kinds of threads that are learning experiences -- because one has to go back time and again to Guruji to find answers.

What I wanted to ask, because English is my native language and therefore I don't know the answer --

When someone born a Sikh and a native speaker of Punjabi reads "bhao", or the other spellings, is "Fear" the automatic understanding of the word "bhao"? Or does the meaning depend on the context in which the word is used?

 

[Sikh80]

'Baho' is a hindi word[bhay] as well meaning almost the same i.e fear.[should be afraid of as english equivalence]But in Punjabi also we do not have any equivalence of 'awe'. May be there is some word but it shall not convey the idea in Toto.
Both the words, as per english Translations, as per word meaning given above, have some degree of overlap.
Awe contains fear as:
a mixed feeling of reverence, fear, and wonder, caused by something majestic, sublime, sacred, etc. Archaic] the power of inspiring intense fear or fearful reverence , terror; dread

Similarly Fear would mean to include Awe as well:

' respectful dread; awe; reverence'

Both the words have some element of
Synonymity between them.

Coming back to your question ,it is to state that there is no Punjabi equivalence of Awe.

 

[spnadmin]

Sikh80

Very interesting. So my next point of curiosity would be -- In Punjabi, does the meaning of "bhao" change from simple fear to fear with reverence, awe, respectful fear, wonder, or other uses of fear according to the sentence or context in which the word is used?

If this is getting on your nerves, let me know.

 

[Sikh80]

No ,my nerve fibres are ok. I am taking time as the question that you have required to be answered is tricky. I am tempted to write that 'Bhao'/'bhay' can be treated as mathematical constant to mean to be 'afraid of.' It should lead to that there is no element of 'reverence ' attached to it unless the context makes it clear by use of some adjective etc. or

The subject matter states so.

What are you arriving at. ?????

You want to replace 'Fear' with 'awe'.

 

[Sikh80]

Many are Ruined without Fear OF Lord.

fwhpix qin suKu nhI ibnu fr ibxTI fwr ] (933-14, rwmklI dKxI, mÚ 1)
In jealousy, the body is not at peace; without the Fear of God, multitudes are ruined.

 

[Sikh80]

Without Fear of God no devotional worship
BY ibnu Bgiq n hoeI kb hI BY Bwie Bgiq svwrI ]6] (911-3, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
Without the Fear of God, devotional worship is never performed; through the Love and the Fear of God, devotional worship is embellished. ||6||

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

Quote from your post #31 of this thread "Regarding your observation that Guru sahibs have not said so, the entire thread is full of quotes from SGGS ji."
Perhaps it is the misleading translation. The entire thread is full of those.
The true Guru's Vaaks is ever original Truth.

Quote "Still if you need you may go thru. the 'tuks' as provided.
Naam jap, simran,meditation, Going to Gurudwara and listening to HIS praises are to develop Love for HIM."
Thank God, the true Guru's Vaaks are developing Love for HIM, not fear. I have heard preachers trying to develop fear in listeners.
Does the Guru help developing love but God wants people to live in fear? Are they working against one another?

Quote from your post #32 of this thread "I am providing the following Lines of SGGS ji as a proof as to we should have Fear Of Almighty as an essential ingredient. I do remember that in some of my thread you have quoted this as 'Bakwaas'."

Thanks for referring the wonderful Vaaks from Gurdev.
Bau Kwxw pIxw AwDwru ] (151-11, gauVI, mÚ 1)
Let the Fear of God be your food, drink and support.
ivxu KwDy mir hoih gvwr ]3] (151-11, gauVI, mÚ 1)
Without doing this, the fools simply die. ||3||

I feel the wrong translation may incite blunders. So is the case with the above translation that is Bakwaas.
Bhao eating and Bhao drinking are idiomatic expressions. Those express the opposite meanings. Bhao Khaanaa (eating) means to have fear. Bhao Peena (drinking) means getting rid of fear.
Are the readers sure Bhao means fear like the translators?
In my observation, today's Sikh is a translated Sikh, not the true Guru's Sikh.


Balbir Singh

 

[Sikh80]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

Quote from your post #31 of this thread "Regarding your observation that Guru sahibs have not said so, the entire thread is full of quotes from SGGS ji."
Perhaps it is the misleading translation. The entire thread is full of those.
The true Guru's Vaaks is ever original Truth.

Quote "Still if you need you may go thru. the 'tuks' as provided.
Naam jap, simran,meditation, Going to Gurudwara and listening to HIS praises are to develop Love for HIM."
Thank God, the true Guru's Vaaks are developing Love for HIM, not fear. I have heard preachers trying to develop fear in listeners.
Does the Guru help developing love but God wants people to live in fear? Are they working against one another?

Quote from your post #32 of this thread "I am providing the following Lines of SGGS ji as a proof as to we should have Fear Of Almighty as an essential ingredient. I do remember that in some of my thread you have quoted this as 'Bakwaas'."

Thanks for referring the wonderful Vaaks from Gurdev.
Bau Kwxw pIxw AwDwru ] (151-11, gauVI, mÚ 1)
Let the Fear of God be your food, drink and support.
ivxu KwDy mir hoih gvwr ]3] (151-11, gauVI, mÚ 1)
Without doing this, the fools simply die. ||3||

I feel the wrong translation may incite blunders. So is the case with the above translation that is Bakwaas.
Bhao eating and Bhao drinking are idiomatic expressions. Those express the opposite meanings. Bhao Khaanaa (eating) means to have fear. Bhao Peena (drinking) means getting rid of fear.
Are the readers sure Bhao means fear like the translators?
In my observation, today's Sikh is a translated Sikh, not the true Guru's Sikh.


Balbir Singh

Keeping Rest aside your posts , as usual, are very informative.Will keep the view posted on your observations.

 

[Sikh80]

suriq hovY piq aUgvY gurbcnI Bau Kwie ] (18-3, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
1.Intuitive understanding is obtained and one is welcomed with honor, through the Guru's Word, filled with the Fear of God.
[kindly check the meaning of the above]

 

[Sikh80]

BY ibnu inrBau ikau QIAY gurmuiK sbid smwie ]1] rhwau ] (18-6, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
2.Without the Fear of God, how can anyone become fearless? Become Gurmukh, and immerse yourself in the Shabad. ||1||Pause||

[Balbir Ji,
Kindlly check the meaning of this as well.

 

[Sikh80]

jhvw ieMdRI eyku suAwau ] (153-5, gauVI, mÚ 1)
The tongue and the sex organs each seek to taste.
idsit ivkwrI nwhI Bau Bwau ] (153-6, gauVI, mÚ 1)
The eyes which look upon corruption do not know the Love and the Fear of God.
Awpu mwry qw pwey nwau ]2] (153-6, gauVI, mÚ 1)
Conquering self-conceit, one obtains the Name. ||2||
sbid mrY iPir mrxu n hoie ] (153-6, gauVI, mÚ 1)
One who dies in the Word of the Shabad, shall never again have to die.

[Balbir ji,
Kindly check the meaning Of this as well.]

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

Quote "Kindly check the meaning Of this as well."
In my view, those are out of track.

One who is blessed with true Naam Simran and his conscious mind is growing listens Guru's word and experiences His Wisdom.
Others spend life in reading and searching for its meaning.

**************

This is what Gurdev is singing in the first Vaak.
ijhvw ieMdRI eyku suAwau ]
"jivhaa indree ayku suaau." SGGS Ang 153-5
Tongue sense has one purpose.

The funny translation provided is 'The tongue and the sex organs each seek to taste'.
May I ask since when sex organ tastes like tongue and the word sense (indree) means sex indree?


Balbir Singh

 

[Sikh80]

Dear BalBir ji,
One should not try to distort the Bani. There is warning to this effect in Guru Granth sahib ji as well. It would be advisable for you that you do your home work properly so that you arrive at the meaning correctly. I cannot translate things for you. Please check the meaning at other site before commenting on the forum.It may be quite prejudicial to the interest of others who are learning.
I am not oblidged to make you see the point.