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Discussion in 'Gurmat Vichaar' started by Huck_Finn, Jan 4, 2008.

  1. Huck_Finn

    Huck_Finn
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    <<What about undeserved suffering?
    Suffering is not inflicted directly by God but is permitted by God as a test of courage and faith. Suffering is appreciated for the good that it often brings out in humanity, e.g. compassion. Suffering is seen as the remedy and pleasure the disease. >>


    can you please provide any reference from SGGS on this?
     
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  3. Sikh80

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    One of the imporatnt fact that is stated in SGGS ji at ang 1407 is as floows:


    • O Guru Arjun, You are Eternal, Invaluable, Unborn, Self-existent,
    • the Destroyer of fear, the Dispeller of pain, Infinite and Fearless.
    • You have grasped the Ungraspable, and burnt away doubt and skepticism. You bestow cooling and soothing peace.
    • The Self-existent, Perfect Primal Lord God Creator has taken birth.
    It would imply that Guru Arjan Dev ji Maharaj was self existent.To me it appears an exaggeration. Guru ji cannot be Nirankaar as he came in the Garb or ordinary man .

    This point was raised by Surinder ji in the ongoing threads and hence it is a matter of significance for all. I would request that someone may kindly take initiative to explain this.
    Regards.
     
  4. Archived_Member1

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    God reveals and manifests through all in the universe, but no finite form can be worshipped as God, who is infinite.

    seems that this answers many of the questions raised in other threads recently... also seems to be in agreement with gurbani.




    the only thing i can think of is from rehras sahib...

    dukh daroo sukh rog bhaya jaa sukh taami na hoee

    Pain is the medicine and pleasure is the disease; because where there is pleasure, there is no desire for God (sggs 469).

    however, i don't think this directly means a "test of courage and faith", but rather an explanation that one must escape maya (pleasure - and pain for that matter) to meet God.

    there are a hundred explanations of how to escape suffering in gurbani. but to say that god is "testing" us sounds suspiciously abrahamic to me...





    it would be nice to know where this "FAQ" came from.
     
    #3 Archived_Member1, Jan 12, 2008
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2008
  5. ekmusafir_ajnabi

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    The above verses form part of the Swaiyas – Poetry Written In Praise of The Fifth Guru ji

    This is not a claim by Guru Arjan Dev ji but has been written in ecstasy of the divine radiance as experienced by the poet Kal Sahar. This is an example of the love of the poet for Guru ji.
    Sikh80 , only if you had gone a few lines further it would have become clearer to you. I say this to you, Do not pick isolated lines and try to make sense of it. Read the entire shabad and then learn the message being conveyed.


    Surinder ji could not answer this :shock:. I think she was just testing you out.

    Kind Regards
     
    #4 ekmusafir_ajnabi, Jan 13, 2008
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2008
  6. Huck_Finn

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    thanks jasleeen.


    you caught the point i wanted to make :)
     
  7. Sikh80

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    I am extremely indebted to you for nice and clear explanation to almost 3 independednt questions. I fully agree that it was swayaiye that Bhatt Kaal had said things in praises. Whatever be the reason the line needed an explanation from a person like you who has a clear vision about the meaning of the lines. I had also spent sometime on this and then had gone back to the author this line,It is how the Bhatt were traced.

    Rrgards again.
     
  8. AmbarDhara

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    SO ALL WHO ARE IN FAVOR OF THE ABOVE STATEMENT, STATE THAT GURBANI IS NOT TRUE, SO GURU JI IS LYING AGAIN AND AGAIN. WOW

    Where gurbani tells us multiple times:

    THERE IS NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN GOD AND GURU. THERE IS NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN A SANT AND HIS WORD.

    gur parmesar naahi bhed.
    brahmgyani aap parmesar.


     
  9. Sikh80

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    It has been stated very clearly that it is only the creator who knows about the creation.It is admittedly stated in the jap ji sahib .

    jw krqw isrTI kau swjy Awpy jwxY soeI ] (4-19, jpu, mÚ 1)
    The Creator who created this creation-only He Himself knows.

    The one who is a part Of creation cannot be the creator HIMSELF.
    Hope it is clear .

    Yes, we may call the unknown as Waheguru.It is stated that Guru nanak dev ji also meditated on 'waheguru'
     
  10. AmbarDhara

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    THE SAME IS SAID ABOUT THE GURU.
     
  11. Sikh80

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    Creators created this creation.
     
  12. AmbarDhara

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    Sikh Ji,

    Can you tell how many creators?
     
  13. Sikh80

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    AMqu n jwpY kIqw Awkwru ] (5-8, jpu, mÚ 1)
    The limits of the created universe cannot be perceived.
    AMqu n jwpY pwrwvwru ] (5-8, jpu, mÚ 1)
    Its limits here and beyond cannot be perceived.
    AMq kwrix kyqy ibllwih ] (5-8, jpu, mÚ 1)
    Many struggle to know His limits,
    qw ky AMq n pwey jwih ] (5-9, jpu, mÚ 1)
    but His limits cannot be found.
    eyhu AMqu n jwxY koie ] (5-9, jpu, mÚ 1)
    No one can know these limits.
    Guru Nanak dev ji in Jap ji sahib...
    ************************
    Guru Nanak ji even did not know the limit Of creation. How can he be the creator?

    HE IS ONE ;THE TRUTH,



    *************************************************

    whether spelled as creator/s is meaningless.Good pun,:idea:
     
    #12 Sikh80, Jan 14, 2008
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2008
  14. Archived_Member1

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    just curious, but where is it stated?

    waheguru only comes in two shabads in SGGS that i know of, neither of them by Guru Nanak Dev ji.

    i've always wondered where we got this myself. :)
     
  15. Sikh80

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    May be you are right.It should be atleast 3/4 times.I am not sure. Wahegur is satated in Swayee by Bhatts.[ poets.] I shall also have to look into to find out where exactly 'waheguru'has appeared. I think it should be in the second half and somewhere aroung ang 1400 +-30pages.

    Regarding Nanak dev ji's meditating on wahegurr, I shall have to check .
     
  16. BhagatSingh

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    I am not trying to preach against Sikhi and not trying to break down its belief systems(like some people think, you know who u r), In fact I think Sikhi is the best religion known to man(and woman). But I have a few things stuck in my head, if anyone can shed some light on these things that would be awesome. Please organize your posts in the numbers as suggested. Thanks. BTW IF someone asked me these questions,I would have a valid reply for them.
    1. Can the creator BE the creation? Yes or no?
    1. Yes? Explain.
    1. No? Then there is something that the creator cannot do as He/She cannot BE the creation! Therefore, there ARE limits!

    2. Can the creator have a form?
    2. Yes? But in SGGS it says that He/She doesn't!? So explain.
    2. No? Again, there is something the creator cannot do and does not have!

    3. <to be continued>

    I was going to compile all my questions and make a new topic but thanks to SIkh80's FAQs, I am going to put these here, if no one minds or thinks I am anti-Sikh :rofl!!:.
     
  17. spnadmin

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    Jasleen ji and Sikh80

    At this link:
    NationMaster - Encyclopedia: Waheguru
    quote
    Waheguru (and its variant, Wahguru) is used only 16 times in the Guru Granth Sahib. Of these, Waheguru occurs 9 times on page 1402 and 4 times on page 1403. Wahguru occurs 2 times on page 1403 and 1 time on page 1404.
    end quote

    A caution about the above link. There are some serious errors. On Ang 1402 and 1403 - the Bani is of Bhagat Gayand. Also found in the bani of Guru Amardas ji 96 times but not as Waheguru or Vaheguru, but in various combinations, such as vahi, vahi, vahi.

    Bhai Gurdas discusses this name for God, but I sense that some of us would rather not go there tonight. So I will honor that.
     
  18. Sikh80

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    Thanks for input.We needed it. Regarding spl. waheguru or Vaheguru, it means same.It is the choice of the translator.

    Dear Bhagat ji,

    I think you should post yoour queries in a new thread.The topic may be of interest to others and we may as well learn.
     
    #17 Sikh80, Jan 15, 2008
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2008
  19. spnadmin

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    we just need to be careful. there are some big panga mistakes in that article. so maybe the number is not right either.
     
  20. Sikh80

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    You may try to give the correct figures if you can.
     
  21. spnadmin

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    You know, I will try. But it is hard because the spelling is not the same throughout the Scripture. And there are different combinations. Sometimes vahiguru, vahee guru, vaheguru, vahi vahi guru, vwhigUrU, and so forth. I will tackle it. Give give me a day or two.


    OK. Good that you challenged me. Right away I discovered that the article is wrong. the lines that follow are in Raag Kirtaan Index .

    1. Page127 Line 1 Raag Svaiyay Mehl 5: Bhatt Gayandh, Shabad :2451 -

    vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jeeo

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
    vahiguroo vahiguroo vahiguroo vahi jeeo ||
    Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o.

    2. Page 127 Line 5 Raag Svaiyay Mehl 5: Bhatt Gayandh Shabad :2451 - vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jeeo

    ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥੬॥
    sath sach sree nivas adh purakh sadha thuhee vahiguroo vahiguroo vahiguroo vahi jeeo ||1||6||
    You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||1||6||

    3. Page284 Line 9 Raag Amrit Keertan: Bhai Gurdas ji Shabad :1738 -

    nij futhe bulaa-ee sathiguroo keeno oujee-aaraa u

    ਹਰਿ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਮੰਤਰ ਅਗੰਮ ਜਗ ਤਾਰਨਹਾਰਾ ।
    har vahiguroo manthar aganm jag tharanehara a

    4. Page337 Line 22 Raag Vaars Bhai Gurdaas: Bhai Gurdas ji Shabad :1719 -

    naaraaein nij roop dhar naathaa naath sunaath kuraaei-aa

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ ॥੧॥
    vahiguroo gur sabadh sunaeia ||1||

    Word Wahiguru was imparted (by Guru Nanak) to the people.

    5. Page338 Line 5 Raag Vaars Bhai Gurdaas: Bhai Gurdas jiShabad :669 -

    gur sikhuhu gur sikh hai peer peeruhun ko-ee

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੂ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਹੈ ਜਪ ਹਉਮੈਂ ਖੋਈ॥
    vahiguroo guroo manthr hai jap houmain khoee||

    His Guru-manta is Vahiguru, whose recitation erases egotism.

    6. Page338 Line 8 Raag Vaars Bhai Gurdaas: Bhai Gurdas ji Shabad :1751 -

    nirunkaar aakaar kur joth suroop anoop dhikhaaei-aa

    ਵੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਅਗੋਚਰਾ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੁ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਸੁਣਾਯਾ॥
    vaedh kathaeb agochara vahiguroo gur shabadh sunaya||

    The Gurus recited Word-Guru as Vahiguru who is beyond the Vedas and Katebas (the semtic scriptures).

    7. Page338 Line 19 Raag Vaars Bhai Gurdaas: Bhai Gurdas ji Shabad :80 -

    abuguth guth abiguth dhee kuo alukh lukhaaee

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਲਾਹਣਾ ਗੁਰ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਅਲਾਏ ॥੧੩॥
    vahiguroo salahana gur shabadh alaeae ||a||
    Vahiguru, God, is eulogised through recitation of the Word of the Guru, Gurbani.

    8.. Page338 Line 21 Raag Amrit Keertan: Bhai Nand Lal Shabad :2065 -

    saar munthr chaaro kaa chaar

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਨਿਰਧਾਰ ॥
    vahiguroo manthr niradhhar ||

    9. Page338 Line 27 Raag Amrit Keertan: Bhai Nand Lal
    Shabad :2065 - saar munthr chaaro kaa chaar

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਪਦਪਾਵਨ ਕੀਨਾ ॥
    vahiguroo padhapavan keena ||


    10. Page629 Line 4 Raag Vaars Bhai Gurdaas: Bhai Gurdas ji Shabad :668 -

    gur sikhee gur sikh sun andhur si-aanaa baahur bholaa

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਲੈ ਪਿਰਮ ਪਿਆਲਾ ਚੁਪ ਚਲੋਲਾ॥
    vahiguroo gur shabadh lai piram piala chup chalola||

    The Guru's word he receives is Vahiguru, the wondrous Lord, and remains silently immersed in delight.

    11. Page629 Line 21 Raag Vaars Bhai Gurdaas: Bhai Gurdas ji Shabad :1889 - prem pi-aalaa saadhusung subudh suruth anehudh livulaa-ee

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਡੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥੮॥
    vahiguroo vaddee vaddiaee ||a||

    Wondrous is the Vaheguru whose greatness is grand.

    12. Page630 Line 4 Raag Vaars Bhai Gurdaas: Bhai Gurdas ji Shabad :709 -

    gurumukh junum sukaaruthaa gurasikh mil surunee aayaa

    ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪੁਰਖ ਦਇਆਲ ਹੋਇ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਚੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਸੁਣਾਯਾ॥
    sathigur purakh dhaeial hoe vahiguroo sach manthr sunaya||

    Becoming kind, the Guru recites true mantra Vaheguru for him.

    13. Page1016 Line 11 Raag Amrit Keertan: Rehat Nama Shabad :1984 - ran mai jaa-e naa kabhoo bhaajay

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਨਿਤ ਬਚਨ ਉਚਾਰੇ ॥
    vahiguroo nith bachan oucharae ||

    14. Page1016 Line 12 Raag Amrit Keertan: Rehat Nama Shabad :1984 -

    ran mai jaa-e naa kabhoo bhaajay

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਕੋ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਧਾਰੈ ॥
    vahiguroo ko hiradhai dhharai ||

    15. Page1016 Line 14 Raag Amrit Keertan: Rehat Nama Shabad :1984 -

    ran mai jaa-e naa kabhoo bhaajay

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਕੀ ਫਤੇ ਬੁਲਾਵੈ ॥
    vahiguroo kee fathae bulavai ||

    16. Page1016 Line 26 Raag Amrit Keertan: Rehat Nama Shabad :1984 -

    ran mai jaa-e naa kabhoo bhaajay

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਸੁ ਜਾਪ ਕਰ ਇਸਨਾਨ ਪੜ੍ਹੈ ਜਪੁ ਜਾਪੁ ॥
    vahiguroo gur manthr s jap kar eisanan parrhai jap jap ||

    17. Page1016 Line 59 Raag Amrit Keertan: Rehat Nama Shabad :1984 -

    ran mai jaa-e naa kabhoo bhaajay

    ਕਰ ਇਸਨਾਨ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਬਹੈ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਿਨ ਅਵਰ ਨ ਕਹੈ ॥
    kar eisanan pavithr hvai behai vahiguroo bin avar n kehai ||

    18. Page1016 Line 68 Raag Amrit Keertan: Rehat Nama Shabad :1984 -

    ran mai jaa-e naa kabhoo bhaajay

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਿਨ ਕਹੇ ਜੁ ਪਾਵੈ ਵੇਸ਼੍ਯਾ ਦਵਾਰੇ ਸਿਖ ਜੁ ਜਾਵੇ ॥
    vahiguroo bin kehae j pavai vaesha dhavarae sikh j javae ||

    So far: 18 minus 7 from Bhai Gurdas equals 11 to start. I will continue.


    Now that was in the Raag Kirtaan Index. Here are 8 more so far from Sri Guru Granth Sahib. All in praise of Guru Ram Das, by Baghat Gayand.

    1. Page1402 Line 11 Raag Sava-yay (praise of Guru Ram Das: Ga-yand

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
    vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jeeo ||
    Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o.

    2. Page1402 Line 14 Raag Sava-yay (praise of Guru Ram Das: Ga-yand

    ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥੬॥
    sath saach sree nivaas aadh purakh sadhaa thuhee vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jeeo ||1||6||

    You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||1||6||

    3. Page1402 Line 18 Raag Sava-yay (praise of Guru Ram Das: Ga-yand

    ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥੭॥
    sath saach sree nivaas aadh purakh sadhaa thuhee vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jeeo ||2||7||

    You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||2||7||

    4. Page1403 Line 2 Raag Sava-yay (praise of Guru Ram Das: Ga-yand

    ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥੮॥
    sath saach sree nivaas aadh purakh sadhaa thuhee vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jeeo ||3||8||

    You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||3||8||

    5. Page1403 Line 12 Raag Sava-yay (praise of Guru Ram Das: Ga-yand

    ਸੇਵਕ ਕੈ ਭਰਪੂਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਭੁ ਸਦਕਾ ॥
    saevak kai bharapoor jug jug vaahaguroo thaeraa sabh sadhakaa ||

    Your servants are totally fulfilled, throughout the ages; O Waahay Guru, it is all You, forever.

    6. Page1403 Line 15 Raag Sava-yay (praise of Guru Ram Das: Ga-yand

    ਸੇਵਕ ਕੈ ਭਰਪੂਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਭੁ ਸਦਕਾ ॥੧॥੧੧॥
    saevak kai bharapoor jug jug vaahaguroo thaeraa sabh sadhakaa ||1||11||

    Your servants are totally fulfilled, throughout the ages; O Waahay Guru, it is all You, forever. ||1||11||

    7. Page1403 Line 18 Raag Sava-yay (praise of Guru Ram Das: Ga-yand

    ਕੀਆ ਖੇਲੁ ਬਡ ਮੇਲੁ ਤਮਾਸਾ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਭ ਰਚਨਾ ॥
    keeaa khael badd mael thamaasaa vaahiguroo thaeree sabh rachanaa ||

    You have formed and created this play, this great game. O Waahay Guru, this is all You, forever.

    8. Page1404 Line 2 Raag Sava-yay (praise of Guru Ram Das: Ga-yand

    ਕੀਆ ਖੇਲੁ ਬਡ ਮੇਲੁ ਤਮਾਸਾ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਭ ਰਚਨਾ ॥੩॥੧੩॥੪੨॥
    keeaa khael badd mael thamaasaa vaahaguroo thaeree sabh rachanaa ||3||13||42||

    You have formed and created this play, this great game. O Waahay Guru, this is all Your making. ||3||13||42||

    We are up to 19, if we count raag kirtann separately from verses in SGGS. Signing off. Will continue tomorrow.
     
    #20 spnadmin, Jan 15, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 15, 2008

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