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Faith and Sikhism

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Harry Haller, Jul 9, 2015.

  1. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Faith, its a dirty word to me, its like something people use to fill in the blanks, where huge gaps exist, thats ok, we will fill it with faith, and everything will be ok. In my view, Creator and aspects of, are much too important to take on faith, we have Bani, which if anything should be used to replace faith with fact.

    Screen Shot 2015-07-09 at 5.50.30 PM.png

    So I started thinking of when it all began, 1699, Guru Gobind Singhji asked for 5 heads, and 5 men stood up. Was the Guru testing their faith? It all starts to get a bit Abrahamic here, is it a bit like god asking for human sacrifice? Is it a case of 'jump of that cliff and you get a reward for blindly following', I do not really think that anything can seriously be learned from that, and of course, the Guru is not the Creator, and he was very keen for us to remember that, and given the presence of the Guru Granth Sahibji around that time, the tenth master must have realised that a point needed to be made, and in a dramatic way, to ensure that the 11th Guru held firm for eternity.

    In my view, it was his word, and ultimately the words contained in the SGGS that he wished us to follow, to trust, not to have 'faith' in, in fact to have no faith at all, but complete and utter confidence, I may have some faith that someone will bring me chocolate today, but I have complete and utter confidence that there is a Creator, only one, that it is timeless, and that it stands for the truth, and in me, for truthful living.

    I find those that say they have faith, to be, in essence, admitting that they have blanks in their thinking, any comments appreciated!
     
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    #1 Harry Haller, Jul 9, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2015
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  3. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    faith is required in any walk of life where the end goal has not been achieved or the end goal can not entirely be seen or accountable by our 5 senses...

    have you reached the end goal that gurbani described. From your post, all i see is a thesaurus of words...faith can be intermingled with confidence...and also belief...also trust. they are not all mutually exclusive...things aren't that simple and clear cut.

    i will post a shabad below...contemplate at first the sorrow felt by guru ji...describing a lost soul searching for vision of Waheguru...and then the joy once it has been found...have you reached that end goal...is how you feel comparable to how Guru Ji describes?

    is the unstruck melody vibrating within your home (body)...can you hear it? commune with it? if not...by your words...you believe...have have faith, you have trust and confidence....use all the words...or use just one...it doesn't really matter does it?

    why pick on a single word... :) you are in essence saying the same thing...

    look at this result from a thesaurus:
    Synonyms for faith
    noun trust in something
    that's all you have done is use words that mean a very similar thing :) ... whats the purpose of this thread? :) lol



    raag gourree shha(n)th mehalaa 5

    Raag Gauree, Chhant, Fifth Mehla:

    <> siqgur pRswid ]

    ik oa(n)kaar sathigur prasaadh ||

    One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

    myrY min bYrwgu BieAw jIau ikau dyKw pRB dwqy ]

    maerai man bairaag bhaeiaa jeeo kio dhaekhaa prabh dhaathae ||

    My mind has become sad and depressed; how can I see God, the Great Giver?

    myry mIq sKw hir jIau gur purK ibDwqy ]

    maerae meeth sakhaa har jeeo gur purakh bidhhaathae ||

    My Friend and Companion is the Dear Lord, the Guru, the Architect of Destiny.

    purKo ibDwqw eyku sRIDru ikau imlh quJY aufIxIAw ]

    purakho bidhhaathaa eaek sreedhhar kio mileh thujhai ouddeeneeaa ||

    The One Lord, the Architect of Destiny, is the Master of the Goddess of Wealth; how can I, in my sadness, meet You?

    kr krih syvw sIsu crxI min Aws drs inmwxIAw ]

    kar karehi saevaa sees charanee man aas dharas nimaaneeaa ||

    My hands serve You, and my head is at Your Feet. My mind, dishonored, yearns for the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan.

    swis swis n GVI ivsrY plu mUrqu idnu rwqy ]

    saas saas n gharree visarai pal moorath dhin raathae ||

    With each and every breath, I think of You, day and night; I do not forget You, for an instant, even for a moment.

    nwnk swirMg ijau ipAwsy ikau imlIAY pRB dwqy ]1]

    naanak saari(n)g jio piaasae kio mileeai prabh dhaathae ||1||

    O Nanak, I am thirsty, like the rainbird; how can I meet God, the Great Giver? ||1||

    iek ibnau krau jIau suix kMq ipAwry ]

    eik bino karo jeeo sun ka(n)th piaarae ||

    I offer this one prayer - please listen, O my Beloved Husband Lord.

    myrw mnu qnu moih lIAw jIau dyiK clq qumwry ]

    maeraa man than mohi leeaa jeeo dhaekh chalath thumaarae ||

    My mind and body are enticed, beholding Your wondrous play.

    clqw qumwry dyiK mohI audws Dn ikau DIrey ]

    chalathaa thumaarae dhaekh mohee oudhaas dhhan kio dhheereae ||

    Beholding Your wondrous play, I am enticed; but how can the sad, forlorn bride find contentment?

    guxvMq nwh dieAwlu bwlw srb gux BrpUrey ]

    gunava(n)th naah dhaeiaal baalaa sarab gun bharapooreae ||

    My Lord is Meritorious, Merciful and Eternally Young; He is overflowing with all excellences.

    ipr dosu nwhI suKh dwqy hau ivCuVI buirAwry ]

    pir dhos naahee sukheh dhaathae ho vishhurree buriaarae ||

    The fault is not with my Husband Lord, the Giver of peace; I am separated from Him by my own mistakes.

    ibnvMiq nwnk dieAw Dwrhu Gir Awvhu nwh ipAwry ]2]

    binava(n)th naanak dhaeiaa dhhaarahu ghar aavahu naah piaarae ||2||

    Prays Nanak, please be merciful to me, and return home, O my Beloved Husband Lord. ||2||

    hau mnu ArpI sBu qnu ArpI ArpI siB dysw ]

    ho man arapee sabh than arapee arapee sabh dhaesaa ||

    I surrender my mind, I surrender my whole body; I surrender all my lands.

    hau isru ArpI iqsu mIq ipAwry jo pRB dyie sdysw ]

    ho sir arapee this meeth piaarae jo prabh dhaee sadhaesaa ||

    I surrender my head to that beloved friend, who brings me news of God.

    AripAw q sIsu suQwin gur pih sMig pRBU idKwieAw ]

    arapiaa th sees suthhaan gur pehi sa(n)g prabhoo dhikhaaeiaa ||

    I have offered my head to the Guru, the most exalted; He has shown me that God is with me.

    iKn mwih sglw dUKu imitAw mnhu icMidAw pwieAw ]

    khin maahi sagalaa dhookh mittiaa manahu chi(n)dhiaa paaeiaa ||

    In an instant, all suffering is removed. I have obtained all my mind's desires.

    idnu rYix rlIAw krY kwmix imty sgl AMdysw ]

    dhin rain raleeaa karai kaaman mittae sagal a(n)dhaesaa ||

    Day and night, the soul-bride makes merry; all her anxieties are erased.

    ibnvMiq nwnku kMqu imilAw loVqy hm jYsw ]3]

    binava(n)th naanak ka(n)th miliaa lorrathae ham jaisaa ||3||

    Prays Nanak, I have met the Husband Lord of my longing. ||3||

    myrY min Andu BieAw jIau vjI vwDweI ]

    maerai man anadh bhaeiaa jeeo vajee vaadhhaaee ||

    My mind is filled with bliss, and congratulations are pouring in.

    Gir lwlu AwieAw ipAwrw sB iqKw buJweI ]

    ghar laal aaeiaa piaaraa sabh thikhaa bujhaaee ||

    My Darling Beloved has come home to me, and all my desires have been satisfied.

    imilAw q lwlu gupwlu Twkuru sKI mMglu gwieAw ]

    miliaa th laal gupaal t(h)aakur sakhee ma(n)gal gaaeiaa ||

    I have met my Sweet Lord and Master of the Universe, and my companions sing the songs of joy.

    sB mIq bMDp hrKu aupijAw dUq Qwau gvwieAw ]

    sabh meeth ba(n)dhhap harakh oupajiaa dhooth thhaao gavaaeiaa ||

    All my friends and relatives are happy, and all traces of my enemies have been removed.

    Anhq vwjy vjih Gr mih ipr sMig syj ivCweI ]

    anehath vaajae vajehi ghar mehi pir sa(n)g saej vishhaaee ||

    The unstruck melody vibrates in my home, and the bed has been made up for my Beloved.

    ibnvMiq nwnku shij rhY hir imilAw kMqu suKdweI ]4]1]

    binava(n)th naanak sehaj rehai har miliaa ka(n)th sukhadhaaee ||4||1||

    Prays Nanak, I am in celestial bliss. I have obtained the Lord, the Giver of peace, as my Husband. ||4||1||
     
  4. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    well you have replied to it, so I would ask what the purpose of your reply is?
    you complain when your threads get hijacked, and I have done my utmost to try and ensure this does not happen, yet here you are doing exactly the same.
     
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  5. Ishna

    Ishna
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    Harry ji, I agree with your sentiments around the word 'faith'.

    To me, it means 'believing in things that are unfounded, or illogical/irrational'. You have faith in something when you have no solid ground on which to base your reason for believing.

    If "Sat" is True, why would anyone need faith?
     
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  6. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    the point is...Harry said...he doesnt need Faith...he already has confidence....its the same thing :) just a different word lol

    both are based on not truely knowing the truth...both have a gap to fill...both live on a belief..both have the same foundation

    so unless harry Ji...or yourself...have experienced the truth first hand...then it is still just faith...wrap it with any word you like...trust, confidence...etc etc

    he's basically saying " i don't need to have faith that an Orange tastes tangy.....i have full confidence that it is tangy"....both have no subjective certainty to it...there's still a gap there...he won;t know if the orange is tangy unless he picks it up and tastes it...until then, it contains a gap lol
     
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  7. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    i'm confused at what point you are trying to make with this thread...

    people can't use the word faith because it shows there is a gap somewhere that they are trying to fill..

    but you're saying that you have confidence....which also still has a gap...as the words portray pretty much the same thing in essence :) so the thread is pretty much mute
     
  8. Original

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    Brother H - forgive me for revisiting some of the stuff already discussed on other threads. I thought Ishna Ji may find it useful to make sense of loose ends.

    Ishna Ji

    "Faith is to believe what you do not see, the reward of this faith is to see what you believe, especially @ AV" Chaz Singh.

    Consider the following:

    A King wanted to know what truth was; an elephant was produced into the King's Court along with seven blind men. Asked to describe the animal, each one's perspective varied, based on which feature was close at hand, the slender rope like tail, the mighty tree-like legs, the twisting snake-like trunk, and so forth. Each man's version was wrong, but each one of the men possessed an element of the more complex elephantine truth.

    And, so is "sat" - the elephantine in all - just need to have a feel for it.

    Our beliefs come in many shapes and sizes, from the trivial, "I believe it will rain today" to the more profound, "I believe in God". Taken together they form a personal guidebook to reality, telling us not just what is factually correct but also what is right n good, and hence how to behave towards one another. One of the long-standing problems with studying beliefs is identifying exactly what we are trying to understand. The general consensus amongst the academia crowd is that belief is a bit like knowledge, but more personal. Knowing something is true is different from believing it to be true; as a result, knowledge is objective and belief is subjective. And, it is the faith of the individual that constitutes belief.

    Thank you for allowing me the time n space to have a say.
     
  9. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    are they the same?

    you have a point, I will edit the above so that it makes my point more succinctly, if you have no objections

    I have to concede this, thank you for pointing it out
    we are getting warm here though, you are correct, unless I have experienced the truth, so I accept I am limited to what I know to be true. Of course the question then is that my own truth is obviously subjective.

    absolutely, I concede fully
     
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  10. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    In my view, it was his word, and ultimately the words contained in the SGGS that he wished us to follow, to trust, not to have 'faith' in, in fact to have no faith at all, but complete and utter acceptance, I may have some faith that someone will bring me chocolate today, but I have complete and utter acceptance that there is a Creator, only one, that it is timeless, and that it stands for the truth, and in me, for truthful living.

    thank you chazji for your input
     
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  11. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Taken at face value this can only intimate that Sikhism is a highly personal relationship with Creator, it can only then follow that no two people can have the same relationship or understanding. How many potential answers are there to the question?
     
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  12. Original

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    Two observers experimenting one phenomenon cannot arrive at identical results. Why ? Because of their vantage point, that is, spaced apart. However, an event can occur at two different locations at the same time. How does this fits in with creator and creation ? Well, in Sikhism the creator and the creation is one, that is, two events occurring at the same time [sargun and nirgun]. It is through personal relationship [sargun] the doorway to Akal Purakh is opened. In other words the sargun [form] culminates into the nirgun [formless]. There is only one answer, one's own "personal".
     
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  13. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    let me get your thinking right on this, and it does make sense in some respects, all paths are individual until complete connection and consonance has taken place, after which it is universal?
     
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  14. Original

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    ..this connection occurs in a very personal way and the consonance [with the formless] is an experience which is described as occurring beyond time and space because it defies the laws of nature. Had the consonance [universe n you becoming one] been captured by science n technology it could have been explained [objectively] but because it hasn't been, its left to individual experience, hence, Chaz crying wolf coz he connects with it on and off.

    I've used science, if you like, to show Akal Purakh as "time" being in two places, that is Harry the physical and Harry the spiritual. You only see your physical self at the moment, where as Chaz connects to his spiritual whilst retaining physical [only as a shell during AV]. The beauty of all this is found on page 644 of SGGSJ.

    The important observation is, when the time is "right" that consonance will happen, you don't know and I don't know - hence mystical or universal. It is not time bound nor space defined.
     
  15. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Originalji, many thanks for the answer, however, the question that is really exciting me

    all paths are individual until complete connection and consonance has taken place, after which it is universal?

    what do you think?
     
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  16. Original

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    Forgive me for not being direct, but yes all paths are individual journeys, what you're relationship n experience with Akal Purakh is, is personal. The complete consonance is taken to mean mergence with the "one" and yes, literally universal.

    Hope it helps !

    Goodnight
     
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  17. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    would you then say that Chazji is having experiences with Akal Purakh already?, no trap, genuinely curious and enquisitive
     
  18. Original

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    I'm afraid I'm unable to confirm, only Chaz can, but what Gur Ghar describes as Anhad Shabd, [sound] and Anubhav Prakash [light] being within the reach of humans is the domain and abode of AP. Belief being the operative word.
     
  19. Tejwant Singh

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    Chaz Singh ji,

    Would you be kind enough to post the page number and also the original in Gurmukhi as requested by Ishna ji?

    Thanks
     
  20. Ishna

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    Chaz Ji

    I don't have time for a proper reply right now, but I just wanted to say that the noun "faith" has a few meanings. One is "trust or confidence in a person or thing", (I have faith in your abilities). Another is "belief that is not based on proof". These are different meanings of the same word.

    I believe Harry Ji is talking about this second definition of faith.

    Yours faithfully
    Ishna
     
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  21. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    then i would say harry ji needed to be very clear as to what kind of faith he doesn't like. Do you think when he says he doesn't need faith that he has confidence instead...that that is also a confidence based on 'not requiring any proof'?


    i would say for a sikh...faith is used as a precursor...a katapult to seek actual experience...
    "i have faith alton towers has fixed all it;s ride issues and is now safe again....but i won't stop there, i will go and check for myself"

    after which hope, belief, faith (in its two forms), trust, confidence is no longer required..because you know, have seen, have felt, have heard the truth for yourself...what a feeling that would be....to just know...
     

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