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Existence of God and the Pain and Suffering Around the World

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by sadhu, Mar 5, 2009.

  1. sadhu

    sadhu
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    If the god exists and he is a supreme being and very compassionate and all powerful, why is there pain and suffering all over the world?
    Why are the people in misery, tensions, problems, anxieties and what not?
    Around 1 million people commit suicides all over the world, that means that there is a suicide after every 40 seconds.
    http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/wspd_2008_statement.pdf

    People are in such a pain, such a misery, that they dont even want to live anymore, they end their lives with their own hands. Why does not the god relieve them from their problems? why does not our compassionate god ends the misery of the human race? God seems to be sleeping or may be he does not even exist, because if he does exist, then why the hell are we in so many troubles?
     
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  3. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Sadhu ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Your concept of God above is the concept of God of Semitic and other religions where God is a personified deity.

    This concept has nothing to do with IK ONG KAAR which as explained by Guru Nanak in Moolmantar is Ajuni Sahibang- Creative Energy.

    That is why in my opinion it is unwise and parochial to use the name God for Ik Ong Kaar.

    I define Ik Ong kaar as ONE SOURCE of ALL which can not be a belief because Ik Ong kaar IS.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
  4. sadhu

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    but why does not your ek omkar, relieve people from their problems, if he is so powerful, so compassionate and antarjaami?
     
  5. Tejwant Singh

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    Sadhu ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    First of all it is not MY Ik Ong Kaar. It seems you did not read what I wrote or if you did, you did not grasp what was written. Please re- read it and come with some specific questions about your own understanding of the post.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
  6. sadhu

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    ik onkar satnaam
    karta purakh
    nirbhau nirvair
    akal murat
    ajuni saibhang
    gurprasad
    and so on..........

    It says that the god is one, and he is the karta purakh {everything works according to him}
    That is what i am asking you, if he is the karta purakh, then why cant he end the sufferings of his people?

    or tell me, why are the people suffering according to you, if you believe that there is a god, how would you explain the suffering of the people?
     
  7. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Sadhu ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    I once again request you to read my initial post again and if you have any specific questions about the concept in response to what I said, ask them. You seem hesitant a bit.:). What is your concept?

    I would like you to explain me your understanding of Mool Manter in your own words after we have discussed the difference between different concepts of God in different religions and more important your concept of God. I have given you the Sikhi concept which you seem to have ignored. Let us go step by step.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
  8. sadhu

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    Yea let us go step by step,

    1. So if god is just the creative energy, then why gurbani is all about loving god?

    2. Why do we have to worship this creative energy, its pointless to worship energy, as nobody worships gravity, it is also a kind of energy, whats so special about god?

    3. What is the point of bowing down to this creative energy, as nobody bows down to gravity or eletricity, which are also energies?

    4. If god is just a creative energy, what is the point of praying to it, and asking for small things and petty favours etc in your prayers?

    If god is just the creative energy then the whole point of religion is lost, which is "loving god". As energy never favours anybody nor punishes anybody, neither it gets pleased by your devotion for it. It just does whatever it has to do,
    You can pray 20 years to gravity that "hey gravity, i love you, i worship you, be good to me", and still if you jump from a building, you will definitely break your bones, gravity wont care about your prayers, it will do whatever it has to do.
    So again if god is an energy, what is the point of praying, or worshipping, or loving it?
    It seems all nonsense if god is just an energy. Dont you think so?
     
  9. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Sadhu ji,

    Guru fateh.

    You seem to be a bit confused about your own thoughts. Just re read how you started the thread and you should be brave enough to respond when asked any questions about your own thread. Why this reluctance?

    Once you share your concept of God, then we can discuss this further. Circular arguments are not fruitful and lead us no where.

    Let us interact in such a way so that both of us and all others who may want to participate can learn from this.

    You mentioned in one of your posts in another thread that you only go by what is written in SGGS. I tend to agree with that.

    Isn't that the true essence of," Mil Sadh sangat bhaj keval Naam?

    As you did agree, let us go step by step.:)

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh- not a Sadhu, Just a Seeker.
     
  10. lalihayer

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    sadhu ji,
    Aren't you same chap who was advocating for a human living Guru?
    If you already found a human Guru, are you looking for answers here or just trolling?
    You claim to know so many people ( hundred!!) who reached God, why can't you understand this question ?
    Anyway, tusi great ho! You are very rare gifted person, who knows hundreds of poeple who attained God. :wah:
     
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  11. sadhu

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    Guru fateh.

    How can i tell you my concept of god? I am not reluctant but i am ignorant as i dont know what god really is. You may be having a concept, but i dont have any.
    I asked you straight questions, may be you did not have the answers, so you say that i tend to circle things up and make them confusing.

    If you feel that i am confused, then why dont you clear my confusion, and why dont you answer my questions.

    You tend to defend yourself from my questions, this is what i can see, as you have never answerd me directly, you have just dodged my questions, may be because you dont know the answers yourself.

    Now try to answer my questions, because for the moment i am accepting your view of god, that the god is the creative energy. So to support your point of view answer my questions otherwise my questions are more valuable then your concept of god. Otherwise my questions can easily shatter your point of view, as your concept cannot answer my questions.

    Or try to figure out a better concept.

    your turn
     
  12. sadhu

    sadhu
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    at lali hayer
    i am definitely great my friend, and you too are great, infact everybody is great.

    I never advocate anything my friend, gurbani advocates the importance of a living guru not me.
     
  13. lalihayer

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    Another great post from you
    Now how I dare question you or answer any question from you? You don't have any stand.
    I salut! I salut!:wah: Like the Borg says, "Resistance is futile." How can anybody dare to debate such a person, who has freedom of posting contradicting statements?
    How can I be great? You claim to know hundreds of people who attained God. Very rarely we see anybody on this forum who claim to know hundreds of people who attains God.
     
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  14. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    Warning from Mod: Debate the issue not the person.
     
  15. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    Sadhu Ji,

    Allow me to quote a gurbani tuk with regards to the attitude of people in today's world and how heavily they are dependent on answers from the outside of themselves. Compare the 'needs' of today's world with what a gurmukh will ask for.


    ਜੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਦੇਹਿ ਤੁਝਹਿ ਅਰਾਧੀ ਦੁਖਿ ਭੀ ਤੁਝੈ ਧਿਆਈ ॥੨॥
    जे सुखु देहि त तुझहि अराधी दुखि भी तुझै धिआई ॥२॥
    Je sukẖ ḏėh ṯa ṯujẖėh arāḏẖī ḏukẖ bẖī ṯujẖai ḏẖi▫ā▫ī. ||2||
    If You will bless me with happiness, then I will worship and adore You. Even in pain, I will meditate on You. ||2||

    ਜੇ ਭੁਖ ਦੇਹਿ ਇਤ ਹੀ ਰਾਜਾ ਦੁਖ ਵਿਚਿ ਸੂਖ ਮਨਾਈ ॥੩॥
    जे भुख देहि त इत ही राजा दुख विचि सूख मनाई ॥३॥
    Je bẖukẖ ḏėh ṯa iṯ hī rājā ḏukẖ vicẖ sūkẖ manā▫ī. ||3||
    Even if You give me hunger, I will still feel satisfied; I am joyful, even in the midst of sorrow. ||3||

    Ang 757
     
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  16. lalihayer

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    Guru Nanak says it all.
    ਮਃ ੧ ॥
    First Mehl:
    ਨਾਨਕ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਝਖਣਾ ਦੁਖ ਛਡਿ ਮੰਗੀਅਹਿ ਸੁਖ ॥
    O Nanak, it is absurd to ask to be spared from pain by begging for comfort.
    ਸੁਖੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਦੁਇ ਦਰਿ ਕਪੜੇ ਪਹਿਰਹਿ ਜਾਇ ਮਨੁਖ ॥
    Pleasure and pain are the two garments given, to be worn in the Court of the Lord.
    ਜਿਥੈ ਬੋਲਣਿ ਹਾਰੀਐ ਤਿਥੈ ਚੰਗੀ ਚੁਪ ॥੨॥
    Where you are bound to lose by speaking, there, you ought to remain silent. ||2||
     
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  17. lalihayer

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    Sadhu ji,

    Fifth Master on Panna 259.
    ਦੁਖ ਸੁਖ ਉਆ ਕੈ ਸਮਤ ਬੀਚਾਰਾ ॥
    They look upon pleasure and pain as the same.

    Guru Nanak on Panna 598.
    ਆਪੇ ਦੁਖ ਸੁਖ ਭੋਗਿ ਭੋਗਾਵੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੋ ਅਨਰਾਗਾ ॥੨॥
    The Lord Himself causes him to enjoy pleasure and endure pain; the Gurmukh, however, remains unaffected. ||2||

    Guru Nanak on Panna 1032.
    ਦੁਖ ਸੁਖ ਹੀ ਤੇ ਭਏ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੀਲੁ ਸਨਾਹਾ ਹੇ ॥੮॥
    The Gurmukhs remain unaffected by pain and pleasure; they wear the armor of humility. ||8||


    Guru Nanak, Panna 1270
    ਦੁਖ ਸੁਖ ਦੋਊ ਸਮ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨੈ ਬੁਰਾ ਭਲਾ ਸੰਸਾਰ ॥
    He sees pleasure and pain as both the same, along with good and bad in the world.

    Guru Arjun Dev, Panna 1342
    ਦੁਖ ਸੁਖ ਕਰਤੇ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਰਜਾਇ ॥
    Pain and pleasure come by Your Command, O Creator Lord.

    ਪੰਨਾ 1342, ਸਤਰ 15
    ਦੁਖ ਸੁਖ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    that I rise above pleasure and pain; I attain the most wondrous devotional worship of the Lord. ||1||Pause||


    Fifth Master, Panna 1357.
    ਪੰਨਾ 1357, ਸਤਰ 9
    ਗ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੰ ਸਮ ਦੁਖ ਸੁਖੰ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਨਿਰਵੈਰਣਹ ॥
    Those who have the wisdom to look alike upon pleasure and pain, live the immaculate lifestyle, free of vengeance.

    Ninth Master, Sri Guru Teg Bahadur Ji in Panna 1427.

    ਸੁਖੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਜਿਹ ਪਰਸੈ ਨਹੀ ਲੋਭੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥
    Whomsoever touch not pleasure, pain, avarice, worldly love and self-conceit.

    ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੁਨੁ ਰੇ ਮਨਾ ਸੋ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਭਗਵਾਨ ॥੧੩॥
    Says Nanak, hearken, O man, He is the very image of the Lord.

    ਉਸਤਤਿ ਨਿੰਦਿਆ ਨਾਹਿ ਜਿਹਿ ਕੰਚਨ ਲੋਹ ਸਮਾਨਿ ॥
    He who is above praise and dispraise and, to whom gold and iron are alike;

    ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੁਨਿ ਰੇ ਮਨਾ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਤਾਹਿ ਤੈ ਜਾਨਿ ॥੧੪॥
    Says Nanak, hearken thou, O man, deem thou him to be emancipated.

    ਹਰਖੁ ਸੋਗੁ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਨਹੀ ਬੈਰੀ ਮੀਤ ਸਮਾਨਿ ॥
    He, who is affected not by pleasure or pain and to whom friend and foe are a like.

    ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੁਨਿ ਰੇ ਮਨਾ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਤਾਹਿ ਤੈ ਜਾਨਿ ॥੧੫॥
    Says Nanak, hearken thou, O my soul, deem thou him to be emancipated.
     
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  18. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    It boils down to expectations, whether they are in accordance with His Will or our will. From experience we should already learn that what we expect to happen, rarely does because we often act in accordance with our fickle mind and not on Guru's well-tested age-old wisdom.

    When we put high expectations on matters worked out by our cunning mind, we are bound by the snares of Maya.
     
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  19. Archived_Member5

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    Mans mind is led away from his Supreme conscience, he is cast into suffering, and rather than the collective community extend a hands as fellow men, we cite his troubles as God given, therefore exacerbating his pain, and assisting the perpetrators of the sinfulness. Where suffering occurs we declare it God ordained, God’s will, where in our heart of hearts we know it is evil, wicked and wholly wrong. The torturer inflicts suffering and pain, and when afflicted mankind curse, lament, decry their God and creator for casting innocents into a world that in the lair and den of evil and the wicked. Gods power is diminished thereby, as the very word of ‘’God’’ and ‘’Lord’’ invokes hatred and deep seated anger in the bellys of those who have witnessed the meaningless and senseless misery and struggle of the innocent whilst the sinful and wicked gloated and laughed at them and their ‘’God’’. How many of us have been exposed to the word, ‘’If their God is so powerful, let him save them’’ whilst simultaneously exerting great application of devilish witchery to increase the pain if only to confront a God in any guise should he be so moved to appear.

    The good evoke God’s mercy, whilst the satanic wolves lie in wait with their witches to capture and destroy any God seeking to eliminate or limit their own evil power. It is a holy war. Bani is powerful, daily prayer is cleansing, love cures all, if one is able to overcome the demons en route to that beautiful paved path to Gods threshold. Diligence and a repudiation of all evil persons no matter how aggrandised or empowered, popular or enticing, will overcome any periods of trials. As one who battles with her demons to simply pray each morning, a prayer seemingly vexing the demons. And for some reason {url not allowed} have placed praying mantis spiders upon each prayer hymnal. Probably a small oversight on the administrator’s part, but surely a horrid sign for ones already tormented....

    One will also note he greater ones hardship the increase in tendency to lament and plead to God whilst the inclusion of the invocative words of our tormentors ensures power by association and affiliation to God for the evil thereby. Religion must now be studied from a scientific view for the Sikh intelligentsia, if only to spare the suffering people greater hardship to comprehend and annihilate Kalyug and herald the Age of Aquarius or SatYug. ....

    {Next question – Methods to destroy and eradicate completely sin nature and paap, the destroyer of mankind’s soul. for those who boast this to be impossible to provide reasons as to why other than their own inability to overcome the duplicitous temptations at play in society.}
     
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  20. Archived_Member5

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    Spiritual life force energy, Jeevan Jorsh, similar to thermodynamic heat emission but far more powerful is a propagating energy force. Love is a chemical emission, a spiritual energy force able to cleanse and purify the mind and spirit of not only the one so infused but others by the presence of such a pure and sacred soul. Bowing to this energy means to supplicate ones intellect {mind} and heart {faith] to the existence of such a force, and in doing so increasing this spiritual positive energy until one is able to discern its presence and is provided with evidence of it in the doing so.

    Worship is a wrong word, belief in its power, the power of each individual to contribute to the creation of sacred love, harmony and peace whether in their own, mind, home and society will activate this force. Belief being a large part of the evidence. Faith creates the right environment for the proliferation of peace and prospering of the soul. {The spaghetti monster anecdote attests to the fact that a supplicated and trusting people can be led by thereafter by anyone, mindful enough to seek such glory and power.} Therefore the route must be primarily through localized individuation than allowing the same sowers of evil to continue their barely concealed tyranny by donning mantles of religiosity. It is a battle for the Great Puran Patti Parmeshwar indeed. Leading an easily duped people through a quagmire of deception to salvation and freedom.

    It is said in most ordinary cases each individuals good deeds, character and standing accrue him as much good fortune as his own sense of deservedness allows. The clear conscience, moral mettle, unassailable steadfastness and intellectual integrity cannot be misfortune for long. We examine and study why certain individuals are stricken or befallen and we observe a negative attitude gained by struggle and disillusion perpetuates the struggle and alienates the person from his true path. One prays therefore to still and concentrate one’s mind, apply resolve and fortitude and all one requires should there remain any want or need can be accomplished. It is overcoming the negativity, anger, resentment, and the demons inciting misfortune that is mans path and task should he be so befallen.

    Understanding of Gurmat and its daily changing methodology assists on this journey and spiritual path to liberation …
     
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