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Islam Equality of the Sexes

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Nadeem, Mar 11, 2007.

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  1. Nadeem

    Nadeem
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    Dear Surinder Kaur-Ji,

    Thank you for your message.

    In Sufism the presence of a living Sufi Master [Guru] can enable a disciple to understand that the outer forms of worship [segregation of the sexes, wearing of Hijab etc] are but symbols of inward realisation. Intelligent persons are drawn to Sufism because of its insistence that outward religion only acts as a support of the inner religion which transcends all forms. Therefore, in teaching a disciple the meaning of the inner religion, outer forms sometimes have to be stressed at this level in order for the disciple to understand the relationship between the two. The Guru or Master has to teach individuals with varying degrees of understanding; if this were not the case then great harm can be caused both to the disciple and to others. The differences between the sexes is not the invention of any religion but a fact of nature. Equally, the equality of the sexes is not the invention of any religion but a fact of our spiritual nature. These two things are not contradictory but are, at the same time, not always adequately understood by people in the way Masters or Gurus intend.

    Also, the rules governing modesty for both men and women are symbolic; for example, precious items such as Holy Books are, in many traditions, veiled or covered with a special cloth without the suggestion that such coverings are demeaning to the Book; similarly if women are regarded as precious jewels then their covering or veiling takes on a purely symbolic meaning.

    However, in God's House, there is no veiling; in Mecca men and women are not segregated when they stand in front of the Kaaba and when they perform the Hajj. So really these things are relative to our understanding. Many Sufi orders do not segregate the sexes but when they do it is usually prevent errors from occuring in the minds of the ignorant or ill-prepared. If a man is full of sexual desires and comes to visit his Guru the presence of females can disturb his mental equilibrium and so the Guru may feel that a limited degree of segregation is necessary until, at some later stage of maturity, the veils can be lifted. But, as the Sufis say: "God knows best"!


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  3. vaapaaraa

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    Nadeem, your explanation about the viel for women is perfect!

    precious jewels! dear brother, lets establish true equality by giving this high honour of wearing the viel to muslim men also!! dont you agree?? Allah created both equally, both are precious jewels

    Thanks for this view, dear brother, my only concern is that women are not robots, they have sexual desire in the company of men, so lets viel the men also, keep the game fair.

    You will be shocked to hear what i was told about the viel and black dishdasha dress of women. black symbolizing impurity and unwanted, and they were all covered and vieled to hide. And the men they wore the white dishdashas.

    Anyway, I want you to clear this doubt for me please.

    Our Gurus condemned the burka/viel as well, to promote equality of male and female.

    Just so you know, and any admins know that, Im no hater of you, I see Allah in you and all. Also, I really enjoy

    reading sufi poetry like rumi.

    One more thing, please clear our doubts women slavery in islam. Also, please tell us if you support it or not.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Islam

    There are several disabilities on the civil and economic rights of women and girls enslaved with the connivance of Islam which may affect them at all times of their lives:[25]

    * they may not inherit property, even if they are freed upon their owner's death[26]
    * their evidence is generally rejected in a court of law[27][28]
    * they cannot hold property and must hand over to their owner any they may acquire[29][30]
    * except as their master's agent they may not carry on trade or business[31]
    * slaves may lawfully killed in vengeance (talio) if their master or their master's kinfolk kill the slave of another person[32][33]
    * except in the Hanafi madhhab, slaves may be killed for killing other slaves but no free person may be killed for killing a slave.[34][35] If they are killed by a free man, the killer is only liable to at the time of the death not to pay their owner their sale value and not full blood-money compensation.[36][37] Thus, their owners may kill them with impunity.
    * they are not permitted marriage without their owner's consent. A master cannot be compelled to give his/her consent to his/her slave's marriage.[38][39] By the view of some madh'hab (but not others), a master may compel his/her slave(s) to marriage and determine the identity of their marriage partner(s)[40] [41]
    * the mahr that is given for marriage to a female slave is taken by her owner, whereas all other women possess it absolutely for themselves[42]
     
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  4. Nadeem

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    Dear Vaapaaraa,

    You write: "please clear our doubts women slavery in islam. Also, please tell us if you support it or not?"

    Did you read my post or is this just another rhetorical question?
     
  5. simpy

    simpy
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    lbu pwpu duie rwjw mhqw kUVu hoAw iskdwru ]
    kwmu nybu sid puCIAY bih bih kry bIcwru ]
    AMDI rXiq igAwn ivhUxI Bwih Bry murdwru ]
    igAwnI ncih vwjy vwvih rUp krih sIgwru ]
    aUcy kUkih vwdw gwvih joDw kw vIcwru ]
    mUrK pMifq ihkmiq hujiq sMjY krih ipAwru ]
    DrmI Drmu krih gwvwvih mMgih moK duAwru ]
    jqI sdwvih jugiq n jwxih Cif bhih Gr bwru ]
    sBu ko pUrw Awpy hovY Git n koeI AwKY ]
    piq prvwxw ipCY pweIAY qw nwnk qoilAw jwpY ]
     
  6. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Dear Surinder ji,

    From Asa Dee Var, 5th Mehl....An interesting contrast of images. As greed and carnal desire form a partnership and over many discussions create their philosophical and spiritual rationale, so the righteous squander their virtue in symbolism.
     
  7. Nadeem

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    Aad0002 writes as follows:

    "As greed and carnal desire form a partnership and over many discussions create their philosophical and spiritual rationale, so the righteous squander their virtue in symbolism."

    Clearly, a narrow dogmatism, instead of joining us to the formless and total truth, results in a kind of paralysis by denying its intellectual potentialities and attributing to itself an absoluteness that only the formless itself can possess - hence the denial.
     
  8. spnadmin

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    Nadeem ji

    My humble and limited interpretation only. However, it seems that the Guru's point in the verse is that intellect has the potential to make anything sound right as long as it is well-formed. In response, the righteous throw up their hands in despair and resort to ritual and symbolism because they need a spiritual safety net. The path to satgur is felt not analyzed, and happens in the heart not the head.

    Peace!
     
  9. Nadeem

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    Dear aad0002,

    You last comment is as follows: "The path to satgur is felt not analyzed, and happens in the heart not the head"

    The true path to Satgur is indeed through the heart and not the head but the heart is a deep ocean that contains every form and all symbols. The symbolism of veiling or covering the head is not open to intellectual analysis in the way you suggest in your post. The wearing of the turban is practiced by both Sikh and Muslim men and the practice of wearing a dupatta or a veil by Muslim women. The symbolism is the same, mutatis mutandis!
     
  10. unbiasedview

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    what are you talking brother!turban is not symbolism!It makes complete sense!You are protecting the power centre of your existence,your head!protecting your head is more important than protecting your any other part of body!how is it symbolism?,it makes complete sense to even a low iq person!you are protecting your head from stroke(in summers,you are protecting your head from cold in winters.you are protecting your head from injury!how is it pure symbolism to you?Its complete dress!why dont you go around keeping rest of your body naked?about dupatta,its role is to hide breasts,a stronger provocation for beginners!Why u challenge gods brain?why he created morphologically different male and female?if female appearance was that big provocation,he could hv just kept the differentiation to organs!whom do you think is more complete?prophet muhammad or god?you people do sunnat!do you think god made a mistake in organogenesis?!islam teaches you to avoid woman?it was right rule for that barbaric society,but now we can manage to see beauty and not lust in face of a woman,thanks to higher ideals introduced to us by our gurus!iam atleast that mature about my sexuality!and if iam,then surely their are lots of people as mature as me!you people are so shallow that u get carried away just by seeing the face of a woman?face of a woman is an object of beauty,not lust?intellectual state and spiritual state are two unrelated things!for that barbaric society where woman were nobody,only object of sexual desire,a mans fiefdom,hiding woman might have been solution!but present world treats woman far better than that time!although still there is lot to improve!but not facing the problem and hiding away from it can never be the ultimate soln!
     
  11. unbiasedview

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    The basic difference between your religion and our religion bro is
    that we believe in mastery over 5 chors(kaam,krodh,moh,maya,ahankaar)
    you by hiding women have already given up on fighting the kaam!listen bro,mind can be trained!for example your mother and your sister is also a woman!And inside a house
    u are exposed to their faces,there complete looks!But is their sexuality about them?
    No!Because your mind has been trained from childhood that this is mother,this is
    your sister,it just doesnt thinks that way!This mind can be trained anyway!
    Everything can be mastered!guru nanak did it,why cant we?he has left the footprints for us to follow!Doesnt this gives more utopian society,where both men and women are equally free!Now u are master,not a slave of urges!In this way there is no need to hide woman!They are equal in all respect!I guess if you cant concentrate on god simply by looking at a womans face,trust me ur are no where on spiritual path!go to himalyas then!A woman face is object of beauty!beauty is soulful thing,not haram!i can appreciate a womans face as a beautiful creation of god!This is hypersenstivity bro!no offence intended!Society at that time was barbaric!women were pushovers!they were paer ki jhutti!they were like slaves of men!prophet muhammed stemmed the rot!His reforms were massive for that society!But at present world over,except for islamic countries,women are lot more equal!and people are very comfortable in seeing the faces of women!They dont get sexually charged up seein a women's face only!Curves might present a challenge,but only face?thats never a sensual provocation to me! you know immunity?It comes from controlled exposure to the organism which causes disease!give yourself controlled exposure or you will remain susceptible to the disease all your life!Thats why we say sikhism is relevant to all religions!A face is physical identity of a person!nobody has right to take away identity of a woman permanently!This world,God belongs equally to woman and men!Dont try to see the world through mans eye only!see it through womans eye also!All the rules of Islam are made as this world seen by man! train your mind through guru nanaks words from day one of your life and you wont see lust in a womans face!you know,every human being is a female to begin with!The Y chromosome contains the gene for testosterone and it is this hormone which causes the expression of male appearance.If there is failure to express this gene,the child will be morphologically a female despite XY!By this token this world is more of females than males!who are we to put them into hiding!Another consequence of hiding the females is increased incidence of sodomy in muslim world!infact the word sodomy has been derived from kingdom of sodom situated on the banks of river jordan!I know these are very basal derivations,but my point here is only very basal beginners are the ones who can be distracted away from spirituality by a womans face!So they can also go towards homosexuality! Dont be scared of a woman so much!Sikhism doesnt fiddles at all with gods principles!It is completely in sync with gods layout of this world,both spiritually and intellectually!
     
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    #10 unbiasedview, Apr 25, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2013
  12. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    agnostic eh?

    I think that could do with a change, as the above post seems pretty Sikh to me!
     
  13. Satyaban

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    Namaskar

    I may be taking the hard line but those who do not believe the sexes are equal in every way do not belong in this century. Those who believe women must be covered from head to toe do not belong in this century or the last 500.

    Symbols have a real purpose but when they become mandatory their purpose is perverted. A person, and we are really talking about women because there is little religions try to require of men, can be very different in their heart than what they wear expresses or the viewer infers.

    If a woman prefers to wear a hijab, burqa, scarf, short pants and a tee shirt or whatever is her choice and should be judged by it. It so happens that at the moment it is the Wahhabi and the Salfis who are driving this oppression on women and they are not doing Islam any favor by it.

    Om shanti shanti
     
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  14. unbiasedview

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    I used sikhi to explain what seems true to my mind,
    I dont have reason not to believe
    Sikhi in this aspect!
    Sikh appearance tries not to fiddle with
    gods design,thats why i said its intellectually
    also compatible with gods layout!
     
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    #13 unbiasedview, Apr 25, 2013
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  15. unbiasedview

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    Its not a narrow dogma,its a very high statement!
    It simply means until you havent mastered your
    kaam ,krodh,moh,maya and ahankar,your intellect will
    find you explanations to justify your belief!islam doesnt
    took on kaam!It has avoided it buy putting a woman under
    complete purdah!while sikhi believes in taking on
    kaam too!Thats why sikhi is higher idea for me than Islam!
    you have right to differ and you have right to believe your way!
     
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    #14 unbiasedview, Apr 25, 2013
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  16. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    unbiasedview ji

    Nadeem ji (who has not been around for a long time) was trying very hard to destroy trust in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. His comment puts intellect on a throne, so to speak, by making it part of the "formless." The aim of his string of messages was to undermine Sikh confidence in teachings of the Gurus. He was not trying to make any kind of intelligent contribution.

    It is obvious that Nadeem ji did not understand the Sikh meaning of "formless" or nirgun, or he would not have said something so ridiculous and off-planet. All part of a conversion/reversion scheme to get Sikhs to doubt Sikhi and turn Muslim. Note, that what he said has nothing to do with Islam either. His purpose was just get everyone twisted in their knickers... and then strike hard with the Quranic messages, according to Nadeem ji. Who can tell if he even gets Islam or the Quran correct?
     
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    #15 spnadmin, Apr 25, 2013
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  17. spnadmin

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    p/s This is an older thread. We are visited from time to time by members of other faiths whose sole purpose is to flame the forum with conversion speeches. First they try to undermine Sikhism and then they spam us with the message of a different religion. It always backfires on them. I would be ashamed myself to do this on a forum of another religion. These sorts are incapable of feeling shame.
     
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  18. unbiasedview

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    SPNadmin ji
    Everytime i see a muslim guy in an inter religious discussion,im honest to admit,that i take everything they say with a pinch of salt!I know,they would never discuss with honesty!They always talk from position of authority becoz they think only their book is god sent,which is extreme ignorance of these people!U Mus hv seen zakir naik,u must see arrogance in his talk!how could such a biased person,such an arrogant person compare mind states,or u can say soul state of prophets!I personally believe prophet muhammad was absolutely great,saintly soul,near god!But so is budha,so is guru nanak!Infact i would wish to state with my limited brain,that guru nanak buddha achieved moksha,or u can say became one with god,but prophet muhammad was probably 1step short,as he could see god outside of himself not inside.he said god lives in seventh heaven!god is nothing but supreme consciousness of soul!My point here is,i too hv explanations but i always doubt myself and would never compare,bcoz i know im limited consciousness!But what the s e muslims do,they force their opinion!They dont discuss!U cant hv honest discussion if ur aim is not to learn but teach!
     

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