Hinduism Dravidian India

[Astroboy]

Here is a slideshow (M.S. Powerpoint) I made about two years ago with the intention of searching for truth from the archeological point of view. Enjoy and discuss.

Click the attached file.


These slides are also viewable in SPN Albums. Narayanjot Kaur Ji (previously Aad Ji) assisted me in arranging them into separate pics. Thanks to the initial effort of Aad Ji who has requested me to open this thread.
Dhanwaad.

 

[dalbirk]

Naam Jap Ji , What is ur idea on Aryan Invasion theory . The chronology of events u can put from about 2500 BC to the start of AD . What were the civilizations flourishing before the advent of Aryans in about say 1600 BC in North as well as South India ?

 

[Astroboy]

Dalbrik Ji,

Let's look into Harrappan civilization in Ancient Punjab.
And also of Dwarka in Gujrat. Further reading :-

Sunken City off India Coast - 7500 B.C.

http://www.mohenjodaro.net/

 

[dalbirk]

Naam Jap Ji ,
A whole lot of REVEALATIONS & REVEALING LITERATURE had suddenly appeared on the scene post 1998 in this regard when RSS(BJP) Govt came to power . Not all but some of this could be motivated trying to undo the earlier Assumptions of Sanatan Dharma as the religion started by foreigners ( ARYANS ) , Varna system supported by FOUR VEDAS , Smrirtis , Puranic tales etc . I therefore wished to know your idea on this specifically .

 

[Astroboy]

I would invite other members to bring forth their knowledge about these subjects.
To start with one subject at a time, there is a parallel about sun-god in the various world civilizations. Wikipedia can be a good source on this issue. The sun-god appears in the most ancient text of the Vedas, the Rig Veda.

 

[Astroboy]

Click > The Aryan-Dravidian Controversy

However, Savitar is a sun-god and sun-god are usually gold in color, ... cation of deities with color i.e. Krishna as black and therefore Dravidian, ...

 

[Archived_member7]

well here is something i found :

BBC - Religion & Ethics - History: Aryan Invasion Theory
One of the most controversial ideas about Hindu history is the Aryan invasion theory.
This theory, originally devised by F. Max Muller in 1848, traces the history of Hinduism to the invasion of India’s indigenous people by lighter skinned Aryans around 1500 BCE.
The theory was reinforced by other research over the next 120 years, and became the accepted history of Hinduism, not only in the West but in India.
But many people argue that there is now evidence to show that Muller, and those who followed him, were wrong.
Others, however, believe that the case against the Aryan invation theory is far from conclusive.
The matter remains very controversial and highly politicised. The article below sets out the case made by those who believe that the Aryan invasion theory is seriously flawed.

 

[Archived_member7]

Arya i feel means a person with good values ...whatever i have read and epics like mahabharat do not mention of any aryan dravidian race...well these brits ..they were a curse to the world ..and we brown skins are the biggest fools to belive what **** they wrote for us ...divide and rule ..is what they know ...and we ..we are all ready to get divded ..

 

[dalbirk]

Arya i feel means a person with good values ...whatever i have read and epics like mahabharat do not mention of any aryan dravidian race...well these brits ..they were a curse to the world ..and we brown skins are the biggest fools to belive what **** they wrote for us ...divide and rule ..is what they know ...and we ..we are all ready to get divded ..

Rajkhalsa Ji ,
Mahabharta & Ramayana were Up-Puranas , Puranic tales did not depict Aryans & Dravidians but they metioned these as Devtas(gods) & Asuras ( Demons ) respectively . In case of Ramayana the fair skinned Ram & Lakshman were gods wheras dark skinned Ravana & his family were Demons , similarly u can trace the story of fair skinned gods & dark skinned demons in all Mythological tales of Puranas & Up-Puranas . The story of war between gods & demons for AMRIT was perhaps a depiction of Aryan invasion of Sapt Sindhu where the fair skinned gods ultimately prevailed & became the proud owners of AMRIT ( perhaps the land of Sapt Sindhu ) & afterwards Vedas were written which depict fair skinned Brahmins & Kshatriyas as superior to dark skinned Vaishyas & Shudras , give the moral authority of religion & rule to those who r Brahmins & Kshatriyas by BIRTH .

 

[Archived_member7]

well if authority was the aim...what abt Ramayan authored by Valmiki..he was ..well if we go caste and class wise ..perhaps the lowest ...Kalidas..was a Goswami ..again neither a brahmin not a Kshatri...

Our culture ..if we see has the best of the Bhagats and Sants from the lowest strata of the society...I understand your view ...but the thing is we should see things as right and wrong..not as Arya dravid ...did Raja Ramchanderji slay Ravan because he was dark skinned and a Dravid ...??? NO...

This bloddy concept has created enough havoc ...we need to ask ourself ..do we want HINDUSTAN, BHARAT ...or do we want a tamilistan, khalistan and many such stans ...

 

[pk70]

Truth about the history must be shared, it should not divide the communities. Lot of stuff happens today. Sikhs went through genocide of1984, do they hate all Hindus? Do all Sikhs demand Khalistan? No, they should never never think like this because there were Hindus who stood by Sikhs in those bad times. Only fanatics coin excuses to ruin harmony of the communities. I appreciate Namjap ji and dlbirk's efforts for discussing this topic.

 

[Astroboy]

Shiva's idols found near Afghanistan excavations.
I watched 4.03 mins. onwards with great interest.
Reminded me of a warhead (missile containing a God of destruction).


YouTube- Secrets of Lord Shiva!

 

[dalbirk]

well if authority was the aim...what abt Ramayan authored by Valmiki..he was ..well if we go caste and class wise ..perhaps the lowest ...Kalidas..was a Goswami ..again neither a brahmin not a Kshatri...

Our culture ..if we see has the best of the Bhagats and Sants from the lowest strata of the society...I understand your view ...but the thing is we should see things as right and wrong..not as Arya dravid ...did Raja Ramchanderji slay Ravan because he was dark skinned and a Dravid ...??? NO...

This bloddy concept has created enough havoc ...we need to ask ourself ..do we want HINDUSTAN, BHARAT ...or do we want a tamilistan, khalistan and many such stans ...

Dear Raj Khalsa Ji ,
I like to share my views with u.First of all I'm no Khalistani radical.You can say I'm against it . I live in India.All Hindus r my best friends.But I have different view regarding Ram.Writes Pt.Jawahar Lal Nehru in his book DISCOVERY OF INDIA page no.143 "The Brahmins establish idols of dead foreign kings Ram,Shanker,Krishna make people worship them & fleece them for their own livelihood." Dr.S.Radha Krishnan past president of India writes in First Chapter of his book BHARAT DARSHAN on page no.7"Ramayana & Puranas including Mahabharata are false mythological & miraculous books".Philosopher Sh.Ghasite Lal writes in his book 'All Human Castes Are Equal Nobody is Down Trodden or High Caste' on page no.127 Poet Tulsidass has himself written in 'Ramchritmanas' by Geeta Press,1st Sopan Bal Kand page no.19th doha 2nd Chopai"Banchak Bhagat Kahai Ke Kinkar Kinchan Kohi Kaam Ke,Tih Me Pritham Rekh Jag Mohi,Dhiya Dharam Dhwaj Dhandak Dhori".Means 'Those who fleece people by calling themselves Ram Bhagats,Those who are slaves of Sex,Anger & Greed,Those who Hoist the False Flag Of Dharma But r carrying the load of Falsehood & Deciet,I am the first leader of all those People.'
Sh.Ram Goyal(M.A.,P.H.D.)Reader History department,Jodhpur University writes that the real name of the king of Ayodhya Raja Ram was 'Pushp Mittar Shung'who was a Chinese Brahmin & in the year 186 BC was the General of Samrat Ashoka's Great-Great-Great Grandson'King Wahah Darab'.In a military exhibition he killed his master & became king himself.The Brahmins in the name of this Pushpmitra Shung wrote "False Ramayana"under the garb of poet Valmiki & made him King Dashrath's son Ram.(This story is repeated in Harish Chritra of Baan).This has been mentioned in book'Vishav Ki Prachin Sabhyatayen 323 AD published by 'Vishav Vidyalaya Prakashan',Varanasi.This book has been accepted as true by Dr.B.R.Ambedkar,Pt.Jawahar Lal Nehru& Dr.Sampoorna Nand.
See the analysis of this:
1.There was no Valmiki ever born , in whose name a complete community has been created after Independence.
2.King Wahab Darab was a Buddhist by faith.Any Brahmin killing a Buddhist was naturally a hero.
3.If there was never a Ram born in Ayodha then what is Ramjanambhoomi.
4.The demolition of Babri Masjid,Bombay Riots were perpetuated to get power in Delhi by RSS(BJP)at the expense of muslims arousing communal passions.
The ASI affidavit in Delhi High court & the expose by Tamil Nadu Chief Minister Karunanidhi who took wind out of RSS Sails(LIES).This has made at least 10% of the Hindus aware of the mythology of the character RAM .

 

[kds1980]

Dalbirki ji

I appreciate your research on this but Muslims are as much responsible for Babri masjid dispute as Hindu's are.What significance Babri masjid is for muslims? Yes BJP Made it an issue and got lot of votes but muslims too allowed them to do it by fighting for dhaancha
which don't have any historical significance for them

 

[AusDesi]

Dear Raj Khalsa Ji ,
I like to share my views with u.First of all I'm no Khalistani radical.You can say I'm against it . I live in India.All Hindus r my best friends.But I have different view regarding Ram.Writes Pt.Jawahar Lal Nehru in his book DISCOVERY OF INDIA page no.143 "The Brahmins establish idols of dead foreign kings Ram,Shanker,Krishna make people worship them & fleece them for their own livelihood." Dr.S.Radha Krishnan past president of India writes in First Chapter of his book BHARAT DARSHAN on page no.7"Ramayana & Puranas including Mahabharata are false mythological & miraculous books".Philosopher Sh.Ghasite Lal writes in his book 'All Human Castes Are Equal Nobody is Down Trodden or High Caste' on page no.127 Poet Tulsidass has himself written in 'Ramchritmanas' by Geeta Press,1st Sopan Bal Kand page no.19th doha 2nd Chopai"Banchak Bhagat Kahai Ke Kinkar Kinchan Kohi Kaam Ke,Tih Me Pritham Rekh Jag Mohi,Dhiya Dharam Dhwaj Dhandak Dhori".Means 'Those who fleece people by calling themselves Ram Bhagats,Those who are slaves of Sex,Anger & Greed,Those who Hoist the False Flag Of Dharma But r carrying the load of Falsehood & Deciet,I am the first leader of all those People.'
Sh.Ram Goyal(M.A.,P.H.D.)Reader History department,Jodhpur University writes that the real name of the king of Ayodhya Raja Ram was 'Pushp Mittar Shung'who was a Chinese Brahmin & in the year 186 BC was the General of Samrat Ashoka's Great-Great-Great Grandson'King Wahah Darab'.In a military exhibition he killed his master & became king himself.The Brahmins in the name of this Pushpmitra Shung wrote "False Ramayana"under the garb of poet Valmiki & made him King Dashrath's son Ram.(This story is repeated in Harish Chritra of Baan).This has been mentioned in book'Vishav Ki Prachin Sabhyatayen 323 AD published by 'Vishav Vidyalaya Prakashan',Varanasi.This book has been accepted as true by Dr.B.R.Ambedkar,Pt.Jawahar Lal Nehru& Dr.Sampoorna Nand.
See the analysis of this:
1.There was no Valmiki ever born , in whose name a complete community has been created after Independence.
2.King Wahab Darab was a Buddhist by faith.Any Brahmin killing a Buddhist was naturally a hero.
3.If there was never a Ram born in Ayodha then what is Ramjanambhoomi.
4.The demolition of Babri Masjid,Bombay Riots were perpetuated to get power in Delhi by RSS(BJP)at the expense of muslims arousing communal passions.
The ASI affidavit in Delhi High court & the expose by Tamil Nadu Chief Minister Karunanidhi who took wind out of RSS Sails(LIES).This has made at least 10% of the Hindus aware of the mythology of the character RAM .

All of this sounds plausible though can never be proven 100% same as how its a mystery what happened to Jesus between the toddler stage and the crucifixion stage.

One thing that I cannot get though If Brahmins did infact create this out of thin air, why did they make these people Kshatriyas. Why did they invent the story of Valmiki being a low caste. Surely, if they had wanted to invent all of this they would have made everyone a Brahmin in the story.

Even more weird is the fact that in this made up tale, the villian is a brahmin while in your story the hero is brahmin(pushyamitra) and the villian is buddhist(brihadtrata).

Also, what proof is there that Shungs were Chinese? What proof is there that they were not from India. Why would the mauryans have a chinese for a general. and why would a Chinese be a brahmin since they are not part of the 'aryan' invasion theory.

I think your story is just connecting random things. The central of which is the persecution of buddhists. I have no idea if Rama existed and I doubt that Brahmins in 185 BC would devise all of this to claim a small spot in Ayodhya.

There are lots of things which have been found out about ancient hinduism which are true like there were no sudras(claimed by Ambedkar). You mention Ambedkar but Ambedkar himself rubbished the Aryan invasion theory.

Another thing, If it took 20th century research to find out that Rama was indeed Pushyamitra then how would Tulsidas have known that? Tulsidas was living at a time when bullock carts were ferraris. How could he have researched that Rama was made up.

 

[dalbirk]

Ausdesi Ji ,
I like to make my views clear . I have read some introductory pages of ' Who were the Shudras ' by Dr. BR Ambedkar . I read that he commented that Shudras were no special race . They were just victims of some fued between tribes . I'm not commenting on Aryan Invasion Theory . I'm just quoting the book ' Vishva Ki Pracheen Sabhyatayen 323 AD ' published by Vishva Vidyalaya Prakashan , Varanasi .
As for the name Ayodhya I happened to saw a BBC documentary on History of India , it was in 5 parts . In that the narrator travelled all over South Asia, India , Pakistan , NWFP, Afghanistan . The whole history from Indus Valley Civilization to modern India was documented in it . There he narrated an interesting trend in Indian traditions . He told that Mahabharata was older Epic than Ramayana . Both these epics had become almost folklores . Which ever incident people wished to save , was added to these epics & so these epics became bigger & bigger . He told that King Samudra Gupta ( The Gupta King 335-380 AD ) was willing to develop Ayodhya as a central tourist place , so that it could develop more . In those days only tourism was religious tourism wherein people travelled regularly & thus benifitting , so he asked scholars to add this city's name Ayodhya to epic Ramayana which was the most popular epic so that it could attaract tourists like Varanasi & Dwaraka . Thus the Ayodhya episodes were added . I was not able to find that episode You Tube .
Another thing is the name of Valmiki , which may have been added because Shudras were converting to Buddhism in very large numbers . So in order to stem their conversion , the name of Low Caste Valmiki may have been adopted . Just a guess of mine , no independent sources . This whole story I had read in Spokesman , monthly magazine some five years back when under some Puran Singh gave this statement that Guru Nanak Dev Ji's lineage is from Lav , Kush & Golden Temle is an ancient Hindu pilgrimage .

 

[AusDesi]

He told that King Samudra Gupta ( The Gupta King 335-380 AD ) was willing to develop Ayodhya as a central tourist place , so that it could develop more . In those days only tourism was religious tourism wherein people travelled regularly & thus benifitting , so he asked scholars to add this city's name Ayodhya to epic Ramayana which was the most popular epic so that it could attaract tourists like Varanasi & Dwaraka . Thus the Ayodhya episodes were added . I was not able to find that episode You Tube .

It is possible but with the modern science it would get found out quickly because for one part to have been changed, the entire book would have to changed as the language would have changed in 500 years. If that happened then comparing language would not be too hard.

However, language changes or language comparison irregularities have been found in Mahabharata not Ramayana. Some linguists have claimed that the Gita was added to the Mahabharata later.

Another thing is the name of Valmiki , which may have been added because Shudras were converting to Buddhism in very large numbers . So in order to stem their conversion , the name of Low Caste Valmiki may have been adopted . Just a guess of mine , no independent sources . This whole story I had read in Spokesman , monthly magazine some five years back when under some Puran Singh gave this statement that Guru Nanak Dev Ji's lineage is from Lav , Kush & Golden Temle is an ancient Hindu pilgrimage .

So to counter Mr Singh's argument someone said Rama is made up?


Though I agree that Ramayana is generally symbolic as its impossible to have monkeys and bears fighting against humans but this story of trying to disprove Rama's existence(as a human being) has too many holes to be believed.

Anyways, your original post and this post are completely different. The reference to Karunanidhi is quite funny. Its obviously his right to say that Rama is a myth but would he says the same about the southern gods? I highly doubt it. its all a political game.