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Does the concept of Charn Amrit fail the litmus test

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Harry Haller, Jul 3, 2014.

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  1. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Very simply, it is written that prior Khande Pahul, there only existed Charn Pahul, where Amrit was the water that the foot, or the toe of the Guru had been washed in.

    I find this fails my own thoughts on how the Gurus conducted themselves, they were slaves to Creation, not ego ridden babas.

    Would Guru Nanakji have been happy to see another being blessed with the water used to wash his feet?

    Thoughts please...........
     
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  3. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    No not at all. As till today we are not able to translate meaning of simran, Jap, Naam, in similar manner all historian have simply taken the literal meaning of CHARAN Dhool as Charan PAHUL included in Bhai Gurdaas Ji’s bani without understanding the Gurbani spirit of the words. Similarly author of Bhat vahi though refers Charan Pahul but was short of understanding its meaning.
     
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  4. Abneet

    Abneet
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    Yes, yes he would be happy because supposedly that was the way amrit was taken. In the GGS, it does make references about washing feet of Saints here and there and other if i do find the references I'll post it up. Just remember whatever our Gurus did was perfect, we might seem to question for a second but they were perfect.
     
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  5. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    I am not interested in what people say they did, I am more interested in what they actually did, please do not post one liners about references, it is not references I am after, if you can post a full shabad that supports this with your own interpretation, that would be great

    he did not seem to be happy with a lot of religious traditions and rituals of the time, this argument simply does not work on any level, why would he be unhappy with threads and sun worship? that was the way worship was done in those days.....
     
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  6. Sherdil

    Sherdil
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    From what I gather, washing of a guru's feet, and then drinking that water was a customary practice amongst spiritual teachers and would-be disciples seeking initiation. It was a sign of humility and respect for the teacher. Just as people today touch the feet of their elders to show respect. For the same reason Sikhs do matha tekh to the guru, who was a living person before GGS. I don't think any ego trip was involved. It's a cultural thing. They don't see it like that.

    According to the saakhis, Guru Nanak made Bhai Lehna (Guru Angad) do a lot of menial and degrading work, which Guru ji's own sons refused to do. By proving his humility and devotion, Bhai Lehna was deemed a worthy successor.
     
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  7. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    My own interpretation is that Guru Nanak drew a very large line in the sand and started afresh. The notion that he kept on some practices does not make sense, you either start something new, from scratch, or you keep on the same old path.I would add this is only my opinion, based on his teachings.

    but did they? Would Guru Nanakji, who was an extremely humble man, as were all the Gurus, wish people to prostate themselves in front of him, would he allow it? Given the desire to show that God was everywhere and in everything, would he not discourage this in order to stop the confusion that he was a god

    you mean like sati, caste discrimination, idol worship, pointless ritual etc
     
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  8. itsmaneet

    itsmaneet
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    Well said Abneet !

    There they are. Certain Sikhs will always have doubts & it will go higher & higher till they surrender their intelligence before Akal Purakh.

    They doubted DG Ji, now doubting Charan Pahul & lets see whats next !!

    Harry Ji, ul get your answers from sukhmani Sahib Ji too...
     
  9. Sherdil

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    I think this prostration business had to have started somewhere. It's pretty likely that the current practice of matha tekh to GGS is a continuation of what Sikhs have always done.

    Moreover, they were not bowing because they worshiped Guru ji as God, they were bowing to show their respect. Just like people touch the feet of their elders. They do it out of respect, not because they think their elders are God.

    I think caste discrimination and idol worship were false practices backed by religious dogma, so it made sense for Guru ji to stand against it.

    Sati was done so the wife wouldn't remarry and have sexual relations with another man, after her husband's death. A reflection of a patriarchal society, which the Gurus opposed because they believed in gender equality.

    But washing the feet, or touching the feet, or bowing doesn't strike me as having any religious significance. It's just an expression of humility and respect. One can say it is good manners.
     
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  10. Sherdil

    Sherdil
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    I think it's good that people ask questions, like Harry ji is doing. It means he is using his brain. If we are not allowed to ask questions, then that creates dogma. If our beliefs are true, then they will withstand questioning.
     
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  11. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Harry ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    I am glad you raised this very vital point. Many Sikhs take this charade as a real event through second hand fairy tales while ignoring the teachings of SGGS, our only Guru. They blindly believe in something that makes no sense based on Gurmat values and without studying it by themselves, which is only upon them as Sikhs. They give a long list of 'believers' to those who question this questionable and eyebrow raising ritual as something etched in stone via hear says.

    @Sahni Sahib. Thanks for explaining the Charan Pahul in a precise manner.

    We should never forget that Bhai Gurdas’ Vaaran were not added to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, because it did not pass our Gurus’ high benchmark that had set forth for any poetry by anyone to become Gurbani.

    The other thing one can gather from the oral history of Sikhi if one has studied it through different references is of utmost importance, that Bhai Gurdas was born 12 years after Guru Nanak took his last breath which could be debatable because our visionary Gurus never wrote any of their history, nor got their portraits painted, both of which were easily accessible through many people in the Mughal era.

    My personal view is that as Sikhi is idea based not personality based as most of the major religions are, our visionary Gurus took the back seat and put their Idea of Sikhi on the throne rather than themselves.

    The fact is that they never called themselves Gurus like Bhai Gurdas does and they are also mentioned likewise in Bhatt Vani in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

    Our Gurus gave themselves numbers, no titles, no name, which is an important factor to keep in mind.. This shows how important the Idea of Sikhi was for them to put forward than anything about themselves.

    Charan pahul was very common during Guru Nanak’s time among the Hindus Brahmins, Mahants, Udasis, Masands and others who wanted to have their disciples with stern obedience to follow them as a flock.

    It is also said that Sri Chand the eldest son of Guru Nanak started charan pahul after he was rejected to be the second Guru by his dad and hence created his own udasi sect/flock.

    One more important thing to notice. Yogi Bhajan, the founder of 3HO was one of those who kind of worshiped Sri Chand and as a result he erected his statues in most of his ashrams. His cult/flock follows the same too and many of his ex-disciples claim that Yogi Bhajan gave charan pahul to some of them for some reason. However, there is no confirmation about it.

    Many other Sants and Babas are said to do the same till today.

    The modus operandi was/is as follows:
    They used to dip their big toe in some sweetened water and make people drink it in order to create their respective flocks. For me, this is nothing but a Me-ism ego trip where the person giving Charan Pahul is full of himself which was not the case of our Gurus as mentioned above.

    Looking at our Gurus’ history and their approach as little as we know about them, one can categorically conclude that our Gurus could have never started this kind of charade. They were conversationalists, not preachers sitting on some pedestal. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is its proof and so are many Sakhis that complement our Gurmat ideals.

    Sadly, many Sikhs and lots of other cults, which have great influence on many lazy Sikhs that love second hand information from Sants, Babas and other snake oil salesmen rather than studying Gurbani on their own to have a firsthand experience of this beautiful gurbani, believe in this charan pahul without giving it a second thought.

    Let’s for the sake of argument say that the above claim were true. If it were, then only people who took charan pahul from Guru Nanak and from the following 8 Gurus would be called Sikhs, no one else. Otherwise, this charade defeats its own purpose.

    One more important point to notice in this serious topic is that Khandei de Pahul was voluntary, and after Panj Pyaras, many others took it but many did not. One of them is the famous Bhai Nand Lal.

    Secondly, if the above claim of charan pahul were true, then Guru Nanak must have done the same with Bhai Lehna before making him Guru Angad which was not the case. History says that he did Matha Tek to Guru Angad with a currency coin of some denomination and other Gurus followed in the same manner.

    Lastly, if the above claim of charan pahul were true, then all the writers in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji would had to have taken the same, hence many poets whose Gurbani is included in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji would not have qualified because most of them were in this world before our Gurus’ time.

    Following is the whole Vaar 23 which has so many anti Gurmat things in it that I do not happen to agree with. The literal translation in English has many flaws. But this is what it is.

    Tejwant Singh

    The main verse about charan pahul is in bold/italics and under lined .

    https://searchgurbani.com/bhai_gurdas_vaaran/vaar/1/pauri/23

     
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  12. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    One more rather interesting point is that there is no Gurbani in SGGS titled "REHRASS"...
    theres is ONLY SODAR....and SOHILA....

    We SIKHS actually DISRESPECT the House of Guru Nanak Ji Sahib when we DISREGARD the transparently clear FACT that the GURU did actually BRING the Brand New Latest GYAAN....He BROKE with every single bit of the old established "gyaan" even to the extent of USING the Language PUNJABI to spread His Divine Message. WHY dive into such a COMPLEX and extremely DIFFICULT subject as Brand NEW ALPHABET..Gurmukhi/and Language PUNJABI..when there were already established texts and langauges and vocabualry etc which were well known and well spread?? The Reason is surely that the GURU needed and thought it vital to have a Brand NEW language/writing system to DISTINGUISH his Latest GYAAN from the old tattered pieces spread around Him.. The GURU didnt just IGNORE the old..HE studied the Sanskrit, the Hindi, the Devnagree and Persian...BUT then went ahead to use his own Gurmukhi/Punjabi to spread HIs DIFFERENT MESSAGE.

    Therefore its entirely LOGICAL to not fall back on the OLD to get at the MEANINGS of the NEW GYAAN...that is only possible through the SGGS itself...If we care to look deeply and with concentration..ALL and Each of our questions are ANSWERED in the SGGS...there is no need to go OUTSIDE of SGGS to know what the GURU means.
    As long as we continue to rely on the discarded baggage..we will keep getting waylaid...confused..go in the wrong direction...and MISS the BOAT.....Yes the VEDAS has "maps" of the Solar System..or even the Universe..BUT the MAPS that GURU NANAK Ji wants us to see are even better than the latest ones being mapped by NASA !!!..so WHY continue to beleive the earth is being supported on the Horns of the Bull and when it shakes earthquakes occur..when GURU Nanak ji has debunked that tall tale and told us Dhaul Dharam Dya ka Poot which is an entirely new concept...

    We are being NIGUREH when we disregard the GURU as SAMPOORAN...wed Doubt HIM..because we seek "knowledge" elsewhere..when the 100% entire knowledge is in the PIO DADDEH DA Khazanah the SGGS...
     
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  13. SaintSoldier1699

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    Problem with the "charan pahul" concept also, is the extended levels of abuse happening to this day with the same principle being promoted.

    I've seen first hand, people drink used water from washing feet/hands in a bid to obtain wisdom/luck from their "holy men", eating left overs, calling it "seetal prasad", yet no change to behavior's.

    To hearing of other weird one's, making tea out of the used water. Drinking water squeezed out of the kachera worn by holy men! It gets worse by the day. :eek:
     
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  14. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    What we chose to disregard ( and its a notion strongly SUPPORTED by the Un-Holies self proclaimed babas, gurus, sants, brahmgyanis etc etc..and PROOF of their dings are a aplenty on You Tube and the Internet)....are:

    1. DEH - Human Body..and its related "vitals"..like shoes, cholas, kacherras, bathrobes, bedsheets, pots, pans, sofas, chairs, horses, pugghs, etc etc etc etc..were given ABSOLUTELY NO SIGNIFICANCE BY our GURU SAHIBS. Hence no portraits and no pictures and no "auto-biographies" and history recordings of personal events, family records etc etc. On the OPPOSITE END..ALL SUCH objects are of IMMENSE "VALUE" to those FAKES who are in essence "EMPTY VESSELS". SO what IF I CANT WRITE A SINGLE TUK EVEN REMOTELY RESEMBLING GURBANI...I have in my possession the "thalee that Guru Nanak ji used to eat in...I have his chola..I have His juttee..I have bred the SNAKES from the pure line Cobra Snake that "shaded" Guru nanak !!! ...and based on just this..many thousands will MATHA TEK and Give their hard earned money to such a Charlatan..as has been done in the case of the Ganga sagar Carrying Fake...all over the world where he visits Gurdwaras each year to make his fortune !!!.....and thats simply becasue ist the EASY PAATH..water flows in path of least resistance...and being asked to READ GURBANI..follow its teachings, CHANGE BAD HABITS..etc etc..is akin to being asked to carry water UPHILL...majority would rather POUR their buckets on the ground and hope its all for the BEST...and the "unholy HOLIES" of course suggest you pour all your water on their FEET and go back home happy...!! who cares what happens to YOUR SOUL...many FOOLS love to live in such a PARADISE !!!

    2. SECOND FACT that cannot be denied is OUR PRESENT GURU is SGGS...and The Charan of SGGS is the PATH the Gurbani asks us to follow..and the AMRIT is the Gurbani inspired feeling of BLISS that results IF we follow the TEACHINGS. Has ANYTHING CHANGED from 1469 -1708 to NOW ?? I think NOT !! The EXACT SAME GURU, same Charan and the same AMRIT. NOTHINGS CHANGED.

    3. Even if for a moment we accept the fact that the GURU in 1469-1708 had "human charan"....we CANNOT disregard the FACT that that so called "human with human feet" also had GURBANI (AMRIT) FLOWING from their MUKH and its solidly available in the SGGS as proof. BUT...ALL those UNHOLY FAKES busy peddling their DIRTY WATER as "Amrit" have NO GURBANI flowing form their Mukhs and MAJORITY of them are ILLETERATE and cant Write a single word in legible script..... much less as the Masters of multiple languages the Gurus were.....so where is the COMPARISON ?? Why are we paying good money to buy "glass beads of REJECT quality and discarding the Beshkeemtee khazanah..the Royal jewels left us by the GURUS.
     
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  15. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Wrong application of "Charan" and "Amrit" then leads to the following:
    1. Sikh women tying "rakhrees" to the Peerhee legas of Plakis, peerhas, of SGGS.
    2. Sikh women "massaging", ghutting, oiling etc the peerreeh legs, palki legs in the mistaken notion that they are in fact massaging the legs of Guru nanak ji !!
    3. Sikhs placing water bottles (with caps open ) under the Peerreehes plakis to be changed form ordinary water to "amrit".

    BTW...the other day a local Learned Holy Man here was put his question. It seems that a few "holy Books" left unattended in a cupboard at the local "holy place" were consumed by WHITE ANTS. The Learned Holy man reply: Collect all the white ants, put them in a Blender and water and make JUICE and bottle that. Since the white Ants have "consumed" the WORD of GOD...they have been blessed and whoever drinks that juice will automatically get the "powers" of reading so many holy books. ( I have not used the relevant right words for the persons and religion involved to avoid hurting religious sentiments). My question is..Are we SIKHS also heading in this direction ? Will Sikhs think that White Ants who have eaten their way through an unattended copy of the SGGS, have becoem holy and by consuming them a Sikh can get the automatic phall of doing multiple sehaj paaths >??? Some years back a big Gurdwara had indeed found that Birs of SGGS had been attacked by SIONK and these were then saskarred. What will happen a few decades down the line ??:kaurkhalsaflagblue::happymunda:
     
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  16. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    and heres some lighthearted banter..relevant to this mediation japping etc (no ACTION to CHANGE)...

    Three sons left home, went out on their own and prospered. Getting back together, they discussed the gifts they were able to give their elderly mother.
    The first said, "I built a big house for our mother."
    The second said, "I sent her a Mercedes."
    The third smiled and said, "I've got you both beat. You remember how mom enjoyed reading the sukhmani Daily? And you know she can't see very well. So I sent her a remarkable parrot that recites the entire SGGS. It took the Five Takhat jathedars 12 years to teach him. He's one of a kind. Mom just has to name the Raag and Shabad and Mahallah/Bhagat, and the parrot recites it."
    Soon thereafter, mom sent out her letters of thanks:
    "Jarnail," she wrote one son, "The house you built is too huge. I live in only one room, but I have to keep the whole house clean!"
    "Aman," she wrote to another, "I am too old to travel. I stay at home most of the time, so I rarely use the Mercedes."
    "Dearest Bhagat," she wrote to her third son, "You have the good sense to know what your mother likes. The chicken was delicious!:soccersingh:
     
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  17. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Gyani ji,

    LOL.

    You summed it up so well as usual.
     
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  18. linzer

    linzer Mexico
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    To hearing of other weird one's, making tea out of the used water. Drinking water squeezed out of the kachera worn by holy men! It gets worse by the day.

    Yuck !!That's just plain sick and wrong.
    I missed it but my wife observed people drinking the foot washing wáter in the Gurdwaras in India. Great way to get atheletes tongue.
     
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