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Hinduism Does Sikhism Confirm the Existence of Hindu Gods/Goddesses?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by badshah, Mar 2, 2011.

  1. badshah

    badshah
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    When I was younger and probably most of you would have been taught about things like Diwali at school, Ravan having 10 heads and just through reading you may have learnt about goddesses such as Durga with many arms, Hanuman in monkey form etc etc

    Since Sikhism mentions all these gods and goddesses especially in Dasam Granth about goddess Durga, does that mean the gods/goddesses actually existed with ten heads, ten arms etc etc?

    The reason I ask is that if I look at these things now from a Scientific point of view that to append 10 heads on a body or many arms is just not practical and may not work

    So does Sikhism say that these gods/goddesses in appearance were symbolic in nature or they actually did exist?

    Thanks

    :interestedmunda:
     

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  3. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    badshah ji you are missing a big piece of understanding Sikhism puzzle.

    Let me explain.

    Our Gurus, teachings and Gurbani is related to real life people not Gods or God's messenger. The technique deployed in all teachings and Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is to not talk elitist. The people's understanding of concepts, beliefs, living styles were used as something to be recognized in developing Sikhism so that the "Andh Vishvas" (blind faith) into Brahminic, Islamic elements in particular could be exposed for what it was so that people could get spiritual freedom. In this process everything and anything was talked about but always keeping the end higher ideal in mind. So literals, devi devta names, devi devta descriptions need to be read in the global context in which the Sri Guru Grant Sahib ji and other writings were framed.

    I think you come across to me as a Hindu at Heart who is using tools to create doubtful topics. Yes these elad to discussion but they also create false headlines. I find some of your comments like the following naive and insulting,
    Take care and I hope I am wrong in the above.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
  4. Seeker9

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    No I don't think it does but if you were to copy and paste the references you have come across, then there are several scholars here who could analyse the context and confirm this

    As for the impracticality of the multi head thing, one way to interpret this quality is that said individual had the intellect of many men so depicted as having multiple heads....not that I believe in any of the gods/goddesses stuff....
     
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  5. badshah

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    I am not going to say that you are correct about me or you are wrong about me, but I do find it fascinating how you have come to your conclusion over the internet

    I will leave it to your mind to conclude to what ever you want

    Hold on, what do you mean insulting...... if Dasam Granth mention goddess Durga then that means she existed...... but with the many arms? Or was it just poetry regardless of whether the goddes actually existed to simply motivate troops to fight a good battle through the stroy of Durga
     
  6. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    God gives us eyes to see (I read your threads), God gives us brain to connect the dots (I see the essence flowing through threads/posts by you).

    Of course I can be wrong. Only you can correct though!

    Take care.
     
  7. badshah

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    You can have all the eyes, ears, noses and brains you want but it comes down to your processing power, not every one has the latest Pentium chip in their head

    Good day Sherlock.....
     
  8. Seeker9

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    Dear fellow SPN'ers

    I can see a bit of personal ping pong developing here on more than one thread!
    swordfight

    Ultimately, I am uncertain as to what can be achieved and would humbly suggest we stay on topic (if admins don't mind me stealing their thunder!)
     
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  9. Ambarsaria

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    Let us enjoy some Durga spirituality in reference to the following in your post to go above baby talk (if Dasam Granth mention goddess Durga then that means she existed),
    climax from the movie "DEVI DURGA SHAKTHI"

    YouTube - climax from the movie "DEVI DURGA SHAKTHI"

    Badshah ji I watched the above video and mentioned it above so I must be believing in Durga too Eh!

    Cheers.
     
  10. badshah

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    Believing in Durga and accepting that she existed (mentioned in Dasam Granth) are two different things, I never spoke of believing in Durga FYI!
     
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  11. badshah

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    Do you think that Dasam Granth is simply poetry some of which is based on Hindu legends such as elements of the story of Durga to simple get people in the state of mind to fight regardless of whether she existed, has lots of arms or not?
     
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  12. Seeker9

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    Dear Badshah Ji

    As per my earlier post, if you could copy and paste these passages you refer to, we could attempt to understand the context within which they are written

    Until I see those passages, I'm afraid I really don't know how to answer your question

    And I think the multi limb references are symbolic to represent an aspect of power e.g intellect or physical strength etc and to emphasise the superiority of and difference between the various deities and normal humans
     
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  13. Ambarsaria

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    So basically any mention of names like Ram, Ravan, Durga, Bandar (Hanuman) in Gurbani implies their existence but for me doing the same it means nothing. Please try to understand Gurbani beyond the literals.

    I understand what you are driving at :Missy:japposatnamwaheguru:

    Sat Sri Akal.

    PS: Just to let you know I am not a Durga pujari or actually a pujari of anything or believing in any pujari!
     
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  14. Ambarsaria

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    Seeker9 ji from my understanding and how Professor Sahib Singh ji explains, the Gurbani poses and disposes (past "rahao" or pause in a shabad) or states and then describes the truth in shabads. So references to existing people so that they could relate to their concepts or beliefs, it relates and then gets to the essence of how to nullify or revisit such for spirituality and God if these are false or Andh Vishvas (blind faith), (to line pockets of Brahmins through ignorance of the masses).

    Take care and thanks for trying to create peace :afriends2:

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  15. Seeker9

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    That's what I suspected but couldn't be sure
    Thanks for this
     
  16. jhelmick

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    I thought Sikhism was monotheistic. Am I mistaken?
     
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  17. spnadmin

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    jhelmick ji

    You are 100 percent correct. This thread has a shelf life of about 1 to 2 more days, when it will need to shape up into something informative, or it will be closed. Your question is a perfect example of why people who start threads like this need to be more aware and more responsive to the fact that an entire Internet theoretically has access to these discussions. Among those viewers are non Sikhs, students of religion, experts on religion, who will see this kind of dialog and wonder if Sikhism has been turned over end like a salt-shaker.

    The gods and goddesses referred to in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji nearly always are part of longer sections of shabads that can be connected exactly to Guru Nanak's journeys to preach to those who worshiped idols. This point is missed over an over again, when there is focus on the names of these Hindu deities, or when it seems that a shabad is extolling a Hindu deity. This is not the case. The shabad read in its entirety, and also shabads that precede and/or follow, are teaching people of one section of India or another, that the god/goddess they worship cannot lead them to meet the one eternal and timeless divine truth.

    [​IMG] Play Audio
    ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥


    Ik Oankar Sat Nam Kartar Purakh nirbhao nirvair. Akaal moorath ajooni saibhang Gurprasaad. There is ONE Creative being, whose identity is truth, the doer of everything, without hatred nor fear, who is timeless, self-existent, and self-created, and known through the Guru's Grace.

    This is a divine nature that is Nirankaar an unchanging truth. Nirgun or formless and Sargun or penetrating throughout all creation and all forms of creation.



    The amazing wonder is that our Gurus were able to do this, challenge the basic tenets of other religions and paths, without being insulting or defamatory and did it with great respect. :happykaur:Thanks.
     
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  18. Ambarsaria

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    jhelmick ji welcome to SPN.

    You are enlightened of course with that comment (you are correct) versus straws others (either detractors or confused) are trying to grab on to, to make it look like Hindusim. This being an open forum we still try to give benefit of the doubt in answering/dialog regardless.

    The following is in Punjabi but the translation is in English on the page as well,

    Awal Allah Noor - Mohinder Singh Bhalla.

    YouTube - Awal Allah Noor - Mohinder Singh Bhalla.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  19. Archived_member14

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    Badshah ji,


    I had said that I will not poke my nose into discussions where I come in as an outsider with little or no knowledge and/or standing against views reflecting the Sikh perspective, given also that the intentions are far from pure. I did initiate a discussion however, one which was meant to avoid this situation and aimed at reputing an outlook, not peculiar to any religion, but one held by all people including those influenced by science. I must confess that I am somewhat angry and disappointed that the two members who asked me to elaborate on my ideas have not yet given any response. But of course this is all about ‘me’ and ‘my expectations’. Still, after some deliberation, I’ve decided that in spite of the self-serving intentions, what I have in mind may nevertheless be useful for some people reading in.

    You wrote:
    Since Sikhism mentions all these gods and goddesses especially in Dasam Granth about goddess Durga, does that mean the gods/goddesses actually existed with ten heads, ten arms etc etc?


    C: It is fair that you ask why they are mentioned and I think Ambersaria ji’s explanation to you may actually reflect the truth of the situation. What I think and would like to add is this; the concept of a creator God, the way I’ve seen expressed here, must be incompatible with that of “gods” as conceived of by Hinduism. You can’t have that which controls and permeate all that exists and goes on, expecting humans to come to ‘realize’ this, and believe in the roles and powers of such entities as Brahma, Vishnu, Siva, Durga, Indra etc. at the same time.

    As for me, I don’t believe in any of these gods. My reason however is this; any being in any form must exist from a cause, and when the cause exists no more, so too that ‘being’. In other words, if Siva must exist, he must have been born and must age and finally die. This being born is due to force of Karma and so too the continuation of the life however short or long, and finally the death. And because the karma never runs out given the accumulating nature of volitional actions, death must in fact be followed by rebirth, immediately.

    The existence of gods as believed in by the Hindus, as far as I know; do not follow such kind of law. Likewise the powers attributed upon those gods that must necessarily conflict with these same laws. This leads me to conclude that they must therefore be a product of people’s imaginations, ones driven by ignorance and craving.

    On the other hand however, when it comes to beings with many arms for instance, this I have absolutely no reason not to believe. After all, I can imagine for example, given my sense about mass and weight of metal 2000 years ago, and lacking necessary scientific facts, I’d never believe in airplanes, rockets and guided missiles. Or if I perceived only bipeds all my life, it would be hard for me to accept the possibility of there being animals with no legs or with four and more of them. And all this is within the “known” world!

    Indeed I have no reason to reject planes of existence, labeled for example, heaven and hell. And although I do tend to conceive of the beings residing there as human-like whenever I must think about these things, this is only because any other form would only be pure imagination. Of course I do not believe that they would have human form, but having an existence outside of my limited perceptions, this I most definitely will not reject, given also that they have been pointed out as existing by those I consider enlightened.

    But heaven or hell, these and the beings living there, all are subjected to laws of cause - effect and conditionality; such that they come into existence, maintain the state and fall away only to condition other such states on and on. Material existence goes by one set of laws and mental ones by other set of laws. And this is what we all need to understand with reference to our own lives *now*, else we just go around accepting one thing and denying another without any basis whatsoever. And we continue arguing with those who we disagree, without any good coming out of it all.

    In other words, that someone denies the existence of gods from a scientific viewpoint does not mean that he must be on the right track. After all this is not from any understanding of the way things are, but rather to do with preference for one set of beliefs over another, although it no doubt appears logical and reasonable to the ‘believer’.

    I had a few more things to say, but have forgotten. Did not have a good sleep last night after having had a gastroendoscopy earlier yesterday, so please excuse any incoherence of thought.
     
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  20. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Read what Dr Karminder Singh Dhillon writes about the Hindu Trinity..and Akal Purakh in Gurmatt...
    entirley different in all ways..

    Sikh Bullettin Jan/feb 2011 attached...Page 6.
     
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  21. Kanwaljit Singh

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    It's just like the story of Santa Claus, made up so that people are nice and giving on Xmas and buy gifts for the family. Of course he doesn't exist.

    If you hear the story of Durga from Dasam Granth, YOU are supposed to become Durga with ten hands and a Khanda in each hand chopping off the heads of enemies. If you haven't become Durga yet, read again.
     
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