Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

Does SGGS tell us to kill infidels and muslims?

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Amardeep, Jun 6, 2006.

  1. Amardeep

    Amardeep
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2006
    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    5
    my friend asked me the above question, and showed me these verses. i must say i was schocked..
    what do they mean?


    ਜੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਸਾਂਈ ਨਾ ਨਿਵੈ ਸੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਡਾਰਿ
    जो सिरु सांई ना निवै सो सिरु दीजै डारि ॥
    jo sir saaN-ee naa nivai so sir deejai daar.
    Chop off that head which does not bow to the Lord.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਸੁ ਪਿੰਜਰ ਮਹਿ ਬਿਰਹਾ ਨਹੀ ਸੋ ਪਿੰਜਰੁ ਲੈ ਜਾਰਿ ॥੧॥
    नानक जिसु पिंजर महि बिरहा नही सो पिंजरु लै जारि ॥१॥
    naanak jis pinjar meh birhaa nahee so pinjar lai jaar. ||1||
    O Nanak, that human body, in which there is no pain of separation from the Lord-take that body and burn it. ||1||

    Page 89, Line 2

    and also says that muslims who dont offer five prayers shoould be killed.


    kabhee chal na aa-i-aa panjay vakhat maseet. ||70||
    You never come to the mosque for your five daily prayers. ||70||

    ਉਠੁ ਫਰੀਦਾ ਉਜੂ ਸਾਜਿ ਸੁਬਹ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗੁਜਾਰਿ
    उठु फरीदा उजू साजि सुबह निवाज गुजारि ॥
    uth fareedaa ujoo saaj subah nivaaj gujaar.
    Rise up, Fareed, and cleanse yourself; chant your morning prayer.

    ਜੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਸਾਂਈ ਨਾ ਨਿਵੈ ਸੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਕਪਿ ਉਤਾਰਿ ॥੭੧॥
    जो सिरु सांई ना निवै सो सिरु कपि उतारि ॥७१॥
    jo sir saaN-ee naa nivai so sir kap utaar. ||71||
    The head which does not bow to the Lord - chop off and remove that head. ||71||

    ਜੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਸਾਈ ਨਾ ਨਿਵੈ ਸੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਕੀਜੈ ਕਾਂਇ
    जो सिरु साई ना निवै सो सिरु कीजै कांइ ॥
    jo sir saa-ee naa nivai so sir keejai kaaN-ay.
    That head which does not bow to the Lord - what is to be done with that head?

    ਕੁੰਨੇ ਹੇਠਿ ਜਲਾਈਐ ਬਾਲਣ ਸੰਦੈ ਥਾਇ ॥੭੨॥
    कुंने हेठि जलाईऐ बालण संदै थाइ ॥७२॥
    kunnay hayth jalaa-ee-ai baalan sandai thaa-ay. ||72||
    Put it in the fireplace, instead of firewood. ||72||
    Page 1381, Line 13

    how are these verses to be understood? :s
     
    #1 Amardeep, Jun 6, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  2. Loading...

    Similar Threads Forum Date
    Hard Talk What Does It Mean To "Desecrate" SGGS / Gurbani? Hard Talk Mar 5, 2016
    How do you know God Exists? does SGGS prove god exists? Questions and Answers Mar 24, 2013
    What does SGGS say about "freedom of speech"? Sikh Sikhi Sikhism Feb 6, 2010
    Does Reading Baani Magically Affect Our Body And Psyche? And Does The Effect Depend On The Bani Read Intellectual Translations by SPNers Apr 30, 2016
    Does God Care What You Wear? Gurmat Vichaar Apr 23, 2016

  3. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2004
    Messages:
    1,744
    Likes Received:
    86
    Gurfateh

    Ang 89

    here God tells Second Nanak to have that sort of mind for yourself

    salok mehlaa 2.
    Shalok, Second Mehl:

    ਜੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਸਾਂਈ ਨਾ ਨਿਵੈ ਸੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਡਾਰਿ
    जो सिरु सांई ना निवै सो सिरु दीजै डारि ॥
    jo sir saaN-ee naa nivai so sir deejai daar.
    Chop off that head which does not bow to the Lord.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਸੁ ਪਿੰਜਰ ਮਹਿ ਬਿਰਹਾ ਨਹੀ ਸੋ ਪਿੰਜਰੁ ਲੈ ਜਾਰਿ ॥੧॥
    नानक जिसु पिंजर महि बिरहा नही सो पिंजरु लै जारि ॥१॥
    naanak jis pinjar meh birhaa nahee so pinjar lai jaar. ||1||
    O Nanak, that human body, in which there is no pain of separation from the Lord-take that body and burn it. ||1||
    Here body and Head are been talked of regarding Second Nanak himslef ie Head and skelton here refrer to that of Bhagat.
    We need to ahve such type of tenendcy within us.


    Then further elaboration Guru did with 5th Mahal added within verse of Shek Fareed that Baba Fareed in 1385 ang also were being addersed to himself and not others.



    ਜੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਸਾਂਈ ਨਾ ਨਿਵੈ ਸੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਕਪਿ ਉਤਾਰਿ ॥੭੧॥
    जो सिरु सांई ना निवै सो सिरु कपि उतारि ॥७१॥
    jo sir saaN-ee naa nivai so sir kap utaar. ||71||
    The head which does not bow to the Lord - chop off and remove that head. ||71||

    ਜੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਸਾਈ ਨਾ ਨਿਵੈ ਸੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਕੀਜੈ ਕਾਂਇ
    जो सिरु साई ना निवै सो सिरु कीजै कांइ ॥
    jo sir saa-ee naa nivai so sir keejai kaaN-ay.
    That head which does not bow to the Lord - what is to be done with that head?

    ਕੁੰਨੇ ਹੇਠਿ ਜਲਾਈਐ ਬਾਲਣ ਸੰਦੈ ਥਾਇ ॥੭੨॥
    कुंने हेठि जलाईऐ बालण संदै थाइ ॥७२॥
    kunnay hayth jalaa-ee-ai baalan sandai thaa-ay. ||72||
    Put it in the fireplace, instead of firewood. ||72||

    ਫਰੀਦਾ ਕਿਥੈ ਤੈਡੇ ਮਾਪਿਆ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਤੂ ਜਣਿਓਹਿ
    फरीदा किथै तैडे मापिआ जिन्ही तू जणिओहि ॥
    fareedaa kithai taiday maapi-aa jinHee too jani-ohi.
    Fareed, where are your mother and father, who gave birth to you?

    ਤੈ ਪਾਸਹੁ ਓਇ ਲਦਿ ਗਏ ਤੂੰ ਅਜੈ ਪਤੀਣੋਹਿ ॥੭੩॥
    तै पासहु ओइ लदि गए तूं अजै न पतीणोहि ॥७३॥
    tai paashu o-ay lad ga-ay tooN ajai na pateenohi. ||73||
    They have left you, but even so, you are not convinced that you shall also have to go. ||73||

    ਫਰੀਦਾ ਮਨੁ ਮੈਦਾਨੁ ਕਰਿ ਟੋਏ ਟਿਬੇ ਲਾਹਿ
    फरीदा मनु मैदानु करि टोए टिबे लाहि ॥
    fareedaa man maidaan kar to-ay tibay laahi.
    Fareed, flatten out your mind; smooth out the hills and valleys.

    ਅਗੈ ਮੂਲਿ ਆਵਸੀ ਦੋਜਕ ਸੰਦੀ ਭਾਹਿ ॥੭੪॥
    अगै मूलि न आवसी दोजक संदी भाहि ॥७४॥
    agai mool na aavsee dojak sandee bhaahi. ||74||
    Hereafter, the fires of hell shall not even approach you. ||74||

    ਮਹਲਾ
    महला ५ ॥
    mehlaa 5.
    Fifth Mehl:

    ਫਰੀਦਾ ਖਾਲਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਲਕ ਵਸੈ ਰਬ ਮਾਹਿ
    फरीदा खालकु खलक महि खलक वसै रब माहि ॥
    fareedaa khaalak khalak meh khalak vasai rab maahi.
    Fareed, the Creator is in the Creation, and the Creation abides in God.

    ਮੰਦਾ ਕਿਸ ਨੋ ਆਖੀਐ ਜਾਂ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਕੋਈ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੭੫॥
    मंदा किस नो आखीऐ जां तिसु बिनु कोई नाहि ॥७५॥
    mandaa kis no aakhee-ai jaaN tis bin ko-ee naahi. ||75||
    Whom can we call bad? There is none without Him. ||75||

    here we can see that we are not told to offend others but rahter sometime weourself have tendency to avoid devotion for God and at that time and at point of state when we are after body and its comfort and away from God,we need to think that this body and head is deacyable and will be over but God is eternal,that God,we do not long to unite due to this bodyly pleasures.We need to hate hatred towards that body which hinders our unuin to God.


    Burning or beheading means to leave attachment to bodylyl pleausere and let that sort of body be desstroyed and we have thinking of such body which is only Rath or chariot of spirit to untie with unversal soul.


    It is not to tell about suicide of body but attachemtn to bodyly pleausre which lert our ego and mind reamin intact and we are in Duja Bhav or dultiy(beholding ourselves other then God or thinking any other Thing exisit other then God).So more been told to kill self ego.
     
    #2 vijaydeep Singh, Jun 6, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  4. BaljeetSingh

    BaljeetSingh
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2005
    Messages:
    84
    Likes Received:
    25
    This post reminded me of a story I used to hear when I was a kid. This story is about 5 blind men who were travelling together. One day they happen to come across an elephant. They had never come across anything like an elephant before. Since, they were blind, they started to feel the elephant by their hands to find out what it was.

    First blind man was around the legs of the elephant. He felt elephant's legs and declared that this is a pillar.

    The second blind man got hold of the tail of the elephant and declared it be a big rope.

    The third, forth and fifth blind men got hold of elephant's ears, tusks and trunk and declared it to be a huge fan, pointed spear, etc.

    Moral of the story: Never look at anything in parts, you need to see the complete picture before you declare what that item is.

    Similarly, please do not quote one or two lines from SGGS and mis quote them just to sensationalize the post or to attract readers. I recommend you read the entire shabad from where you have picked up these lines and try to understand the complete meaning of the shabad. The "Rahao" line should have the central meaning of the shabad.

    Your truely
    Baljeet
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. kds1980

    kds1980 India
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,504
    Likes Received:
    2,738

    very well said.all the sikhs are doing this
     
  6. hps62

    hps62
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2005
    Messages:
    241
    Likes Received:
    12
    This is an absolutely bizzare way of interpreting these lines.

    Sikhs talk of and in there daily prayers utter

    " nanak nam chadi kala tere bana sarvat the bhalla".

    It would be stupid to attribute these qualities to a modern an progressive and forward looking people called sikhs.

    We are learners of truth not of violence.

    Arms are only excixed against tyranny , injustice and in self defence.

    some ones way of practising and worshipping god is not a reason to harm him.


    i hope such point less issues are not at all given any notice . the need the same response as of chrisitians to da vinci code " a cool ignore " .

    let us be on our journey of life of a SIKH as a learner .

    love

    hps62
    the saint warrior
     
  7. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,623
    Likes Received:
    14,188
    This is a Classic example of Taking Tuks out of Context, separate them from the Shabad, IGNORE the Metaphors and Symbolism used, Misinterpret and take things LITERALLY....all the wrong things to do....

    1. First of All in the House of nanak..ALL are WELLCOME..no body is an infidel here. Nanak naam Chardeekalla Tere bahneenh SARBATT da Bhalla..SARBATT means all the 6 BILLION..men women and children standing on this Earth...Osama Bin Laden INCLUDED !! Sikhsim deosnt seek the bad of anyone...There is NOT a single tuk In the 1429 Pages SGGS that speaks ILL of anyone.
    2. Certainly there is NO Tuk that calls for anyone to be killed....all that has to be "killed" is the Ego..the Kaam Lust, The Krodh Anger...the Attachment..The Haumaii..the "I AM"..the PRIDE...and ultimate MERGER into AKAAL..Allah, Raam rahim, is to be attained by all...SGGS is the One and Only Scripture that contaisn all the Names of GOD in one place..we have ALLAH, we have RAAM, we Have Hari...Awwal ALLAH NOOR upaiyaj sabh kudrat ke bandeh....Na Ko Beri Nahin Begana...Tera Bhanna Meetha laggeh....Guru Arjun Ji didnt even say a single word agaisnt his tormentors while seated on the Burning Hot Plate..He asked for TERA BHANNA Meetha Laggeh...MIAN MIR the Great Muslim Pir REQUESTED Guru arjun Ji's Permission to strike Delhi and Lahore into DUST through his vast spiritual powers..GURU JI said NO WAY....what harm have the millions of people living there done to me ???
    3. DONT look for the God of the Koran/Bible in the SGGS....that type of GOD is missing here...the Allah The Raam The Rahinm of SGGS doesnt strike ciites dead....drown the entire world in a flood..or send PLAGUES to smite the Land..killing first borns of Egyptians..or making rivers into blood so that even the fish die.Dont look for any such messages as Kill all INFIDELS..kill all KAFIRS etc in the SGGS....there are NONE....not a single one.

    Gyani jarnail Singh
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. BaljeetSingh

    BaljeetSingh
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2005
    Messages:
    84
    Likes Received:
    25
    May I suggest the moderators to remove such posts which refer to individual lines rather than the entire shabad.
     
  9. Arvind

    Arvind
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Contributor Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    2,365
    Likes Received:
    379
    Baljeet veer,

    I am in favour of keeping such posts.. bcos after going through the thread completely, one can make a balanced decision about not taking a single tuk out of context. If we remove such threads, these kind of questions are bound to surface again and again. Actually, even same reason applies for many acidic posts with rough comments, so that one understands the psyche of people from different backgrounds. If more of you disagree, then we will take further step. so I request you to review your perspective.

    Regards, Arvind.
     
  10. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,623
    Likes Received:
    14,188
    Agree 110% with Veer Arvind Singh Ji.

    We should NEVER sweep things under the carpet....not only does this action "spoil" the carpet....it breeds more " dirt" which we think should be swept away..and then no carpet is big enough for all our dirt...

    Not everyone here is "biased", or "ignorant" or "well read", 'competent"..each has his her own standards...we are all learning..at our own pace...let the questions be asked and answered..even many times...the "sikhe" and Gurmatt can stand the test of time...every time for all time...we have nothing to hide or "explain away"...

    Gyani jarnail Singh
     
  11. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer sikhiart.com

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2006
    Messages:
    2,912
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    i think that the first one is a metaphor saying that if a head doesnt bow to god then it is useless again this is also a metaphor.. its just telling u to follow naam. Alot of the gurbani is metaphors no wonder people have trouble understanding but once u understand the basic concepts u can relate and clear up the confusion

    its not saying kill them its saying they are useless meaning dead already!! if u dont do naam simran then ur dead .. its figure of speech
     
  12. Kulbirrose

    Kulbirrose
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2014
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    21
    Yes, thank you; people everywhere will take things out of context often.
    To answer the question simply, no, we are not enjoined to literally go out and kill anyone who is not a Sikh. What we are being asked to do is to always remember God.
     
  13. Kulbirrose

    Kulbirrose
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2014
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    21
    These verses are meant as metaphors; they do not mean for Sikhs to go out and kill people who are not Sikhs.
     

Share This Page