Does Religion Oppress Women?
Hi Lee
<?"urn:
fficeffice" />Man does indeed appear to have a propensity for grouping and as history shows that mass collective can be directed into either good or bad, unfortunately more often bad.
The difference with religion as a group is when it goes bad all natural guilt which could modify their sickening conduct is absolved because they as religiously motivated believe their butchery is an act of righteous service to their god.
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Hi Lee
ffice
Man does indeed appear to have a propensity for grouping and as history shows that mass collective can be directed into either good or bad, unfortunately more often bad.
The difference with religion as a group is when it goes bad all natural guilt which could modify their sickening conduct is absolved because they as religiously motivated believe their butchery is an act of righteous service to their god.
Thecoopes,
Guru Fateh.
Sorry to barge in but I felt compelled to comment on your post. It seems you know little or nothing about Sikhi or about Gurbani- The Sikh Scriptures. I would urge you to read. Knowledge is everyone's friend and gets rid of ignorance which breeds hatred and disdain which you seem to have shown in the other thread. That is the reason in your posts under this thread and the other you tend to mix apples and oranges and give a racist tone to your posts which shows how insecure you feel in your own white skin. FYI, English was not the official language of India till the fiendish Brits showed up in Calcutta in the farce of East India Company.
Tejwant Singh
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They used to say the last refuge of a scoundral is patriotism, it appears that has been replaced with the refuge of racist as an acusation.ffice
ffice" /><?"urn:<img src=" />I am baffled why you are trying to attribute to me such an acusation?
Where have I ever been racist? You on the other hand bring in the issue of colour “White” and Nationality, “Fiendish Brits”!
NB: as the topic was general vis a vis “Religion” not Sikhism, your point in singling out one religion is myopic.
Please don’t ever acuse me of racism, “are you insecure in your brown skin?” Now how does that sound? Not very nice.
So lets have a sensible discussion without the personal acusations.
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They used to say the last refuge of a scoundral is patriotism, it appears that has been replaced with the refuge of racist as an acusation.ffice
I am baffled why you are trying to attribute to me such an acusation?
Where have I ever been racist? You on the other hand bring in the issue of colour “White” and Nationality, “Fiendish Brits”!
NB: as the topic was general vis a vis “Religion” not Sikhism, your point in singling out one religion is myopic.
Please don’t every acuse me of racism, “are you insecure in your brown skin?” Now how does that sound? Not very nice.
So lets have a sensible discussion without the personal acusations.
thescoopes,
Thanks for the reply. Please respond to my following question before you try to mix Sikhi with other religions.
What do you know about Sikhi and how it is similar or different from the Abrahamic religions?
You can call me a fiend if my acts dictate that.
. The fact of the matter is and if you know history, you would know why I said fiendish brits. Nothing to feel upset and uptight about the facts of history. One has to learn how to accept the truth and then admit it. Denial takes us no where.It is our worst enemyTejwant Singh
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Many ex-colonies, most of which are developing or under-developed, now have an automatic advantage over others when communicating internationally. Especially in the case of an emerging country like India.
India has always been a land of diverse cultures, boasting several languages and many dialects. The use of English and a western style of education which were introduced and promoted by the British colonial empire, served to unite north India with Dravidian southern India, becoming the lingua franca of the Indian nationalist movement. Post independence English became embedded in Indian culture.
English provides Indians with a valuable asset when it comes to emigration and performance of transactions within an international system.
“So not everything the British done was bad.”
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thescoopes,
Thanks for the reply. Please respond to my following question before you try to mix Sikhi with other religions.
What do you know about Sikhi and how it is similar or different from the Abrahamic religions?
You can call me a fiend if my acts dictate that.
Tejwant Singh
Your question “What do you know about Sikhism and how it is similar or different from the Abrahamic religions?”ffice
ffice" /><?"urn:<img src=" />The term “to know” implies too much as there are over 4,000 religions of which 12 are designated as the major religions.
An answer to your question depends on what you mean by “Know” if as Muslims say that no one can “Know” Islam unless they have read the Koran in Arabic, then I do not “Know”, if however you accept that the principles of Christianity founded on the cornerstone of Abraham and bought to us through the prophets with Jesus Christ being the fulfilment of the that Abrahamic covenant being my understanding of Christianity, and Sikhism was founded by Guru Nanak in the 16<SUP>th</SUP> century thereafter 9 Guru’s followed. Guru Arjan completed the establishment of Amritsar as the capital of the Sikh world, and compiled the first authorised book of Sikh scripture, the Adi Granth.
As to any further dissecting of each religion then the web is a powerful storehouse of knowledge and as this is a web based forum that is a good place for information.
So how does your question relate to the fact that All religions have the propensity to dominate those who are not followers.
We are not discussing here that some religions are very very violent and others less so, but religion as an entity is the poison.
Peace.
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Your question “What do you know about Sikhism and how it is similar or different from the Abrahamic religions?”ffice
The term “to know” implies too much as there are over 4,000 religions of which 12 are designated as the major religions.
An answer to your question depends on what you mean by “Know” if as Muslims say that no one can “Know” Islam unless they have read the Koran in Arabic, then I do not “Know”, if however you accept that the principles of Christianity founded on the cornerstone of Abraham and bought to us through the prophets with Jesus Christ being the fulfilment of the that Abrahamic covenant being my understanding of Christianity, and Sikhism was founded by Guru Nanak in the 16<sup>th</sup> century thereafter 9 Guru’s followed. Guru Arjan completed the establishment of Amritsar as the capital of the Sikh world, and compiled the first authorised book of Sikh scripture, the Adi Granth.
As to any further dissecting of each religion then the web is a powerful storehouse of knowledge and as this is a web based forum that is a good place for information.
So how does your question relate to the fact that All religions have the propensity to dominate those who are not followers.
We are not discussing here that some religions are very very violent and others less so, but religion as an entity is the poison.
Peace.
John,
Thanks for the reply however superficial it is. Islam is part and parcel of the Abrahamic religions which also inculde Judaism and Christianity. You can not separate these 3 because the umbilical cord is the same.
Sikhi is not a religion. It is a way of life because it is based on pragmatism, unlike other main religions including the Abrahamic ones which are based on religious dogmas.
This wonderful forum is full of great threads for you to understand Sikhi and have a bit deeper knowledge so you do not mix everything in the same pot out of habit and the superficial knowledge of things. You do injustice to your own intelligence with that.
Regards
Tejwant Singh
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Pleaseee, you never set the question, what do you “know” about is too vague. If you wanted to know whether I knew Judaism, Christianity, and Islam shared a common foundation stone with Abraham then that was the question you should have asked.
<?"urn:
fficeffice" />So your opinion as to Sikhism not being a religion maybe at odds with the founders of this site.
As to claim it is a way of life and not subject to dogma then you need to remove your 5 articles of faith, as I think they are somewhat dogmatic like the Jewish kappel.
Anyhow It never cesses to amaze me how every religion believes their religion is true because it is not like such and such.
peace
:happykaur:
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Pleaseee, you never set the question, what do you “know” about is too vague. If you wanted to know whether I knew Judaism, Christianity, and Islam shared a common foundation stone with Abraham then that was the question you should have asked.
ffice
So your opinion as to Sikhism not being a religion maybe at odds with the founders of this site.
As to claim it is a way of life and not subject to dogma then you need to remove your 5 articles of faith, as I think they are somewhat dogmatic like the Jewish kappel.
Anyhow It never cesses to amaze me how every religion believes their religion is true because it is not like such and such.
peace
:happykaur:
John,
As I said in my post. Knowledge is your best friend. Do not make it your enemy. It is bewildering to me that how parochial minded you are, just like the fanatics in any other religion.
FYI, One does not need to have the 5 articles to be a Sikh. I thought you knew that.
So, have a nice learning journey.
Regards
Tejwant Singh
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John,
As I said in my post. Knowledge is your best friend. Do not make it your enemy. It is bewildering to me that how parochial minded you are, just like the fanatics in any other religion.
FYI, One does not need to have the 5 articles to be a Sikh. I thought you knew that.
So, have a nice learning journey.
Regards
Tejwant Singh
My next door neighbour calls himself a Sikh and has no articles of faith, I think your view is myopic don’t mistake objectivism with criticism. Also do you put yourself above knowledge by implying it is my best friend, I think you also need to drink from that well, and pleaseee stop being so condescending in your replies, stick to fact.
peace:happysingh:
John,
As I said in my post. Knowledge is your best friend.
So, have a nice learning journey.
Regards
Tejwant Singh
So I have learnt from you that Sikhism is not a religion, has no dogma, doesn’t need any articles of faith, I think the other 26million Sikh’s around the world must be labouring under a misconception, especially as Sikh’s have had so many legal battles with Western authorities that carrying the kirpan is a religious duty.
ffice
ffice" /><?"urn:<img src=" />Also the fact there are those that feel they need the 5 K’s to be Sikh, and there are those like you who feel you do not, implies that there is within Sikhism different views as to what it actually is to be Sikh.
It is the same in the Christian church, part of the Christian dogma is to preach evangelism, many see themselves as Christian even though they have never preached the gospel!
We could go on and on but I am sure you must by now get it, anyhow it is, here in England almost 2010.
As with all things the united states will eventually follow, see you in 2010.
Peace.
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Sadh Sangat,
It is not the question whether a religion oppresses a woman or not as the title of the thread would indicate. It is if we who call ourselves Sikhs get the message from the beautiful Gurbani from the SGGS, our only Guru.
When we sing the beautiful shabad in Asa di Vaar by Guru Nanak," Why talk ill about those who even give birth to the Kings", our upper bodies swing with bliss and ecstasy while sitting cross-legged pretending that we men have gotten the message and accepted it.
The actuality in Sikhi shows it otherwise and exposes our hypocricy.It's time for us men to walk the walk rather than just swing the swing while chanting the Shabad.
The change should start from the top. Let's have a woman as the Jathedarni of the Akal Takhat. Let's have a woman the Head Granthi of the Harmander Sahib the most sacred place of Sikhi and other historical Gurdwaras. Let's have women as sevadarnis inside the square at Harmander Shabib while the woman Head Granthi is doing the chor sitting on the tabia. Let's have women do Keertan at Harmander Sahib. Let's have women do Seva after midnight.
Once this starts happening then it will trickle down to all walks of life in the Sikhi spectrum.These well deserved steps taken by us men will show the equality that Guru Nanak, the first feminist preached.
These steps will stop the female infanticide because this will show that women do not have to fight for the rights they were bestowed upon. They do not have to work for the fighting chances of life.They deserve to be there. This will stop honour killings because women will be not treated as mere disposable objects.
It all depends on us men because without the women, we would not exist.
Let 2010 be the year when we men, walk the walk. Otherwise listening to the beautiful Gurbani about equality and swinging along is nothing but a faux pas.
Happy New Year.
Tejwant Singh
It is not the question whether a religion oppresses a woman or not as the title of the thread would indicate. It is if we who call ourselves Sikhs get the message from the beautiful Gurbani from the SGGS, our only Guru.
When we sing the beautiful shabad in Asa di Vaar by Guru Nanak," Why talk ill about those who even give birth to the Kings", our upper bodies swing with bliss and ecstasy while sitting cross-legged pretending that we men have gotten the message and accepted it.
The actuality in Sikhi shows it otherwise and exposes our hypocricy.It's time for us men to walk the walk rather than just swing the swing while chanting the Shabad.
The change should start from the top. Let's have a woman as the Jathedarni of the Akal Takhat. Let's have a woman the Head Granthi of the Harmander Sahib the most sacred place of Sikhi and other historical Gurdwaras. Let's have women as sevadarnis inside the square at Harmander Shabib while the woman Head Granthi is doing the chor sitting on the tabia. Let's have women do Keertan at Harmander Sahib. Let's have women do Seva after midnight.
Once this starts happening then it will trickle down to all walks of life in the Sikhi spectrum.These well deserved steps taken by us men will show the equality that Guru Nanak, the first feminist preached.
These steps will stop the female infanticide because this will show that women do not have to fight for the rights they were bestowed upon. They do not have to work for the fighting chances of life.They deserve to be there. This will stop honour killings because women will be not treated as mere disposable objects.
It all depends on us men because without the women, we would not exist.
Let 2010 be the year when we men, walk the walk. Otherwise listening to the beautiful Gurbani about equality and swinging along is nothing but a faux pas.
Happy New Year.
Tejwant Singh
Tejwant ji
Do you really think that these steps will prevent Female foeticide?When Indira gandhi the most powerful women of India was prime minister then female foeticide started also at the same time Dowry deaths became a norm in urban India.Women are still climbing ladders at top but at Ground level no change is happening.
Kanwardeep Singh ji,
Guru Fateh.
Yes, I do, provided we use the tools bestowed to us in SGGS, our only Guru.
Pardon my ignorance, but I have no idea what Indira Gandhi has to do with my post. My post is strictly directed to the Sikh men who hold power and do not give the women a fighting chance to break the domed ceiling.
Indira Gandhi was a ruthless,asexual, give a damn kind of person who wanted to be a king. I use the word asexual because she did not care about anyone no matter what gender one was from. She was power hungry, Hitler without the whiskers.
Tejwant Singh
Exactly what I meant!
I think also each sex male and female have to accept their limitation and accept them too. The workings of testosterone and oestrogen on the body do enable us and limit us.
Indira Gandhi is Still the role model for Indian Feminists irrespective of what she did with the sikhs.Congress still promote Priyanka Gandhi as Indira because they know women love Indira.
Anyway My point was women need more support at ground level than at top level.India ,Pakistan,Bangladesh are all countries where women Reached the top most post And USA still is a country where There is no woman President
but condition of women is much better in USA than in India.I don't think in sikhism we need to do show off to make a woman jathedar .If a woman is capable Its O.K. no problem
Kanwardeep Singh ji,
Guru Fateh.
I still have no idea what my original post has to do with your responses. Yes, USA is one of many countries where woman has not been on the top political post. That could be one of many measuring sticks. Just research how many women are CEO's in the US and other countries that had women as heads of the states. But that is not the point I was trying to make anyway. You seem quite imaginative to make things up that were not even mentioned in the posts.
And your claim that ," we need to do show off to make a woman jathedar " shows your own disdain towards women, it seems. I never mentioned that in my post, to the contrary. Show off to whom, how, and why? Does SGGS, our only Guru teach us to do that as you claimed above. What qualifications do women need that they lack and men are born with, to be the Jathedarnis or Head Granthis? Would you be kind enough to list them for me? Why this macho attitude?
My post was based on practicing the tools given to us in SGGS, our only Guru. Your claim is not based on that but the way you think about women, sad to say.
It is ok to disagree and we do disagree on this matter, but please do not cook things up to make up some kind of point against the women.
Regards
Tejwant Singh
UGH!! i do not like these types of arguments
Everyone knows their own physical limitations through common sense (although after last night, i would say some learn there limitations a little late in life
).the discussion should involve a phrase like 'psychological equality'. Where a desirable state for a feminist involves both sexes being viewed as equal agents of intelligeant thought.
accepting limitations only leads to the construction of more limitations, and, sadly, i doubt it redirects us to any useful tasks, but will just stifle imagination.
The Feminist task is NOT to provide equality amongst the sexes, which agreeably would be impossible, but at least a sembelence of equal oppurtunities...whether it be about education, challenging patriarchal inheritance, career oppurtunities, etc.
and in doing so provide an equal plain where ideas from both sexes combine and are taken with equal regard. (opening up/unlocking talents that have henceforth been oppressed by a social structure.)
and the belief that any group should have enough respect to grant the other equal oppurtunities is not much to ask, by any movement (feminist or human rights movements)
that is very true and interesting points..but i disagree on some
roles should not stifle oppurtunities because they might hamper innovation or kill the spirit of ingenuity. diversify roles and the outcome, according to a darwinian social model will be positive.(as everyone knows diversity within a species, or in this case, diversity within social roles, leads to higher chances of survival).
the diversification of applicants to specific roles in society is just another step of social evolution
also read post above
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