Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

Does God control everything?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by bindi, Jan 7, 2006.

  1. bindi

    bindi
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2005
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    2
    Sat Sri Brothers and Sister,
    I have one question which has been on my mind for many-many years and for which I am until today unable to find a satisfactory answer. This question can be summarize as "Does God control everything in the Universe?" Allow me to explain myself...

    In the Guru Granth Sahib, there appears countless times verses stating to the effect that :- "God is in charge and controls everything in the Universe. That nothing happens which is outside the Will of God. That God is the doer of all. That literally God IS All." These are not exact verses from the Granth Sahib but rather my understanding of verses. I do not think it would be necessary to quote any verses from the Granth Sahib as anyone reading it will bound to find countless verses stating to the effect.

    The problem I find is elsewhere the Granth Sahib (and many other holy scriptures) also state that: "Man is responsible for his actions. That Man has free will and can and should decide what is right and wrong."

    My dear brothers and sisters, I am confused! To my thinking both statements are contradictory. If God is the controller and doer of all, how can Man have free will? If man has free will, then how can God be said to control and do EVERYTHING? If free will is within the Will of God, how can we say it is FREE?
    If free will is an illusion, then why does God punish Man by sending him to hell or reward him by sending him to heaven? What need be there for a heaven or hell if all that man does is according to His Will?

    I am utterly confused and puzzled by this enigma! I have searched for an answer in many books and scriptures but the answer eludes me. I have searched through this website and found only ONE thread discussing free will. Kudos to Etinder for his lengthily exposition on free will. While I found his discussion very enlightening on the topic of free will, it still did not resolve my conflict. This is because Etinder choose to discuss free will from the philosophical point of view, leaving God out of the question. What I need is an explanation from Gurbani i.e. a theological or religious point of view.

    If there be among you an enlightened one who can solve this mystery for me I shall forever be great full to him or her.

    Thank you in advance.

    Guru Ki Fateh
    Balbinder Singh
    Ipoh, Perak
    Malaysia
     
  2. Loading...

    Similar Threads Forum Date
    Does God Care What You Wear? Gurmat Vichaar Apr 23, 2016
    What Believing In God Does To Your Brain Interfaith Dialogues Mar 26, 2016
    What Does God Do for Us ? Sikh Sikhi Sikhism Jun 12, 2013
    How do you know God Exists? does SGGS prove god exists? Questions and Answers Mar 24, 2013
    Does God Exist? Sikh Sikhi Sikhism Sep 1, 2012

  3. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2004
    Messages:
    1,744
    Likes Received:
    86
    Gurfateh

    Well refer to verse in Japu Ji Sahib.


    ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੋਵਨਿ ਆਕਾਰ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਕਹਿਆ ਜਾਈ
    हुकमी होवनि आकार हुकमु न कहिआ जाई ॥
    hukmee hovan aakaar hukam na kahi-aa jaa-ee.
    By His Command, bodies are created; His Command cannot be described.

    ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੋਵਨਿ ਜੀਅ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਵਡਿਆਈ
    हुकमी होवनि जीअ हुकमि मिलै वडिआई ॥
    hukmee hovan jee-a hukam milai vadi-aa-ee.
    By His Command, souls come into being; by His Command, glory and greatness are obtained.

    ਹੁਕਮੀ ਉਤਮੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਦੁਖ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਈਅਹਿ
    हुकमी उतमु नीचु हुकमि लिखि दुख सुख पाईअहि ॥
    hukmee utam neech hukam likh dukh sukh paa-ee-ah.
    By His Command, some are high and some are low; by His Written Command, pain and pleasure are obtained.

    ਇਕਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਬਖਸੀਸ ਇਕਿ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਸਦਾ ਭਵਾਈਅਹਿ
    इकना हुकमी बखसीस इकि हुकमी सदा भवाईअहि ॥
    iknaa hukmee bakhsees ik hukmee sadaa bhavaa-ee-ah.
    Some, by His Command, are blessed and forgiven; others, by His Command, wander aimlessly forever.

    ਹੁਕਮੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਹੁਕਮ ਕੋਇ
    हुकमै अंदरि सभु को बाहरि हुकम न कोइ ॥
    hukmai andar sabh ko baahar hukam na ko-ay.
    Everyone is subject to His Command; no one is beyond His Command.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਜੇ ਬੁਝੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਹੈ ਕੋਇ ॥੨॥
    नानक हुकमै जे बुझै त हउमै कहै न कोइ ॥२॥
    naanak hukmai jay bujhai ta ha-umai kahai na ko-ay. ||2||
    O Nanak, one who understands His Command, does not speak in ego. ||2||

    See the last two lines das always rember.It is clear.

    Your question is also not by you but Akal wanted you to ask.

    and das replys by will of Akal.


    Man and universe is composed of Akal and absolute truth is Akal.


    Our forms,our deeds,our souls are not ours but apearntly our.

    what we see or feeel by other sense is nothing but God.

    So as per Gurmat no one is high or low as no one is doer.

    in Mool Mantra Karta Purakh means doer of complete(all).

    The other concept of free will or man doing his deeds is contradictory to Gurmat.

    Term Karam is not used for deeds(in Sankrit) but for Karam from Arbic ie Kareem is Akal.

    So Karam is mercy which also is wil of Akal.

    We have one God Akal and one direction and that is all doer is Akal and it is said in one verse that till Some one behld that he/she is doer ,that person will be reborn.(it is perhaps in sukhmani Sahib).


    Das repeats that idealogy of deeds done by Humans and responsibilty of humans for that is anti Gurmat.

    Murderer or protector all are in control of God.Holy Vedas and Holy Old Testment give testomany of it.
     
    #2 vijaydeep Singh, Jan 7, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  4. devinesanative

    devinesanative
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    511
    Likes Received:
    10
    Dear friend

    Both the statements are not contradictory , but both neutralize at a ZERO .

    When something happens , If you believe and understand Gods Hukum then you wont Feel either worry or happiness , simply peace state of mind .

    If you don't believe and understand God's Hukum But your Deeds , then Man is responsible for his own deeds . This if you acknowledge your deeds then you neither feel worry nor happiness , simply peace state of mind .

    This peace state of mind is ZERO State ....

    It might have taken care to bring both Gurmat and Manmat at a peace state of mind .
     
  5. bindi

    bindi
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2005
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    2
    At the end of the first pauri of Japji, it says:-
    “O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will.”

    The next pauri goes on to say that God is in absolute control, that nothing happens without Him:-
    By His Command, bodies are created; His Command cannot be described. By His Command, souls come into being; by His Command, glory and greatness are obtained. By His Command, some are high and some are low; by His Written Command, pain and pleasure are obtained. Some, by His Command, are blessed and forgiven; others, by His Command, wander aimlessly forever. Everyone is subject to His Command; no one is beyond His Command. O Nanak, one who understands His Command, does not speak in ego.

    And still in pauri 33 it says that we are powerless to do anything:-
    No power to speak, no power to keep silent. No power to beg, no power to give. No power to live, no power to die. No power to rule, with wealth and occult mental powers. No power to gain intuitive understanding, spiritual wisdom and meditation. No power to find the way to escape from the world. He alone has the Power in His Hands. He watches over all. O Nanak, no one is high or low

    The question that begs to be asked is: “If we are powerless (as according to pauri 33) as God made us so (according to the pauri 2), then how can we follow God’s command as He requested (in pauri 1)?”

    If God alone causes everything to happen and we cannot do anything by ourselves, then where does sin come from? Is not sin from God also? If sin is from God then why is it we who must go to hell?

    I am in no way questioning the validity of the Guru’s statements. To me these are mystical statements. What I am questioning is our way of understanding them. I believe there must be a coherent way to understand and explain these seemingly contradictory statements. That’s what I hope we will find.
     
  6. devinesanative

    devinesanative
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    511
    Likes Received:
    10
    There is no Sin or Virtue , Or Good or Bad , these are all relative terms .

    The pauris are coherent in themselves but not contradictory .

    If you are feeling hungary then it is by the command of God , to quench your hunger you might desire to have chicken .

    So , if you are having chicken as your food then it is also by the command of God .

    The chicken you might in your food , was the chicken who might have been going through one of the phases of the order of 84.00 million species .

    The buther who has chopped off the Chicken has done so by the command of God , because the God might have wished that the chicken has lived so and so life , so he/she must be sent into another birth so as to count the 84.0 milion species .

    The butcher , who is cutting the chicken might have been the Chicken itself in the past life and the Chicken who is being chopped , has chopped the butcher in the past life .

    This whole process is a very complex chain Reaction Which happening with the Command of God.
     
  7. devinesanative

    devinesanative
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    511
    Likes Received:
    10
    Hey , I did't wrote that Stuff , It was GOD who was commanding me to do so . ;)
     
  8. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2004
    Messages:
    1,744
    Likes Received:
    86
    Gurfateh

    DS Ji are correct.

    anyway Bindi Ji,

    Das think you are talking about Huqum Rajai Chalna Nanak Likhaya Naal.

    It is to be more clear words of God which tell Guru go happy with orders of God.

    Feel happy as God comands So this can happen by will of Akal.

    If you read anand Sahib,it is clearly stated Puni Paap Vicharde Tate Sar Nan Jani..

    It deals with those who ting of good and bad do not know the essance of summery or what we can say real thing.

    Then universe is told sleeping under three quality ie Bad,Practicle and good.


    Sikh has to live in fourth or Chautha gun ie doer or Karta is Akal.

    for a person with ego it could be sin on him if some one cheats him from that some one.

    but in real may be by that chheating Akal is giving him some lesson to be more carefull.

    Jo thud Bhave Sai Bhali Kar Tu Sada Salamat Nirankar.

    What so ever you like that is good deed(by you) you are ever happy oh formless.

    das would recomend you to read the Bani of Tenth Master in Dasham Granth Sahib Ji.

    It all states that what so ever happens does happens for good as Akal makes it to happen and Akal knows what is good for us.

    Even we do not know what is Good for us.Say even when it will be good for us to die so will Akal let usleave this body.

    das is very Happy that you are thinking in correct direction of Panth and god is realy happy with you that you are realising the real roop of Akal.

    Ekai roop anup Saroopa.
     
  9. devinesanative

    devinesanative
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    511
    Likes Received:
    10
    dear Vijay Deep ji

    I agree with you . I really agree on the line about cheating .

    Yes , it is true that God wants to make you learn .

    There was once a time when I cursed that why everyone cheats me . But one day Some 5 years back when I Sat in Cool and Lonely place and tried to go into the flash back .

    What i observed that whatever God was doing was doing right . God was actually Training me to face this tough world in the years to come .

    One thing I have learned that no one cheats you , But it is you and only you who gives the permission to the other to cheat you .
     
  10. rosethorne

    rosethorne
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2005
    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    1
    WJKK WJKF

    Dear Vijeydeepji, devinesanativeji and offcourse Bindiji, It is a question of no despute about the control of GOD in everything. But also GOD is not stoping us to do wrong things, He is giving a sense to our brains that to do whatever your Brain says. This is called KARMA. What BinLaden has done to America? Wasn't that wrong? But that happened and a History of America now. Then what GOD is doing to stop the wrong things. HE is doing that he is giving the permissiom to learn and do the things. God never comes down to earth to stop one but HE really do make the right thinking at the right time not the negetive one. It is the Kirpa Of Satguru which is easiely accesible to Gursikhs But Never to Manmukhs.
     
  11. kharkoo4life

    kharkoo4life
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    May 31, 2005
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    2
    The concept of Divine Will is not an easy concept to understand. Particularly when we try to understand it against the 'free will' we humans are granted. At first glance this seems contradictory, that if God is the doer of all then what value does our free will hold.

    The Divine Will of God is something so grand and complex that it is beyond mans full understanding. The more we try to break it down and analyze it the more confused we will get. That being said, gurbani still does use some simple examples to give us hints or basic ideas of how this Divine Will vs Free Human Will works.

    One of the examples often used to try and illustrate free will is that of animals kept on farms. For instance, an ox is kept tied to a tree with a rope. That ox walks around freely on the nearby pastures in whichever direction it pleases, eating whatever grass it wants all the time thinking that i am free and can do whatever i wish. It does not realize that its free will, while it indeed exists, is confined within the greater will of its master (thru the rope). The ox is only able to do as much on its own as the master permits it to. Whenever the masters wishes it can pull the ox back into line with a simple tug.

    Such is the state of man as well. God has given us a certain amount of free will. To live life, to experience the joys and sorrows of this world, to make new decisions everyday on how we wish to live our life. Gods love for man is so immense that he has given man certain freedoms. IF we were kept tightly shackled to a single spot for our whole life what kind of expression of love would that be from the master? It is because of this free will of each man that each man is so unique. This is why so much variety exists in this world in terms of attitude, personality, emotions etc just like a beautiful garden with an endless variety of flowers.

    But living within this free will man forgets that just like the ox his own will is finite and exists within the greater Will of God. When we get engrossed in thinking that everything we do happens by our own will, that is when we begin to experience pain in our life. When we strat thinking that it is i who studied so many hours ang got this degree, or that it is I who worked so hard and made enough money to buy this house etc. Even when it comes to the domain of religion, if we think we can walk this path on our own and achieve union with GOd by our own thoughts, actions then we are mistaken.

    AwpxY BwxY khu ikin suKu pwieAw AMDw AMDu kmweI ]
    Tell me, who has ever found peace by following his own will? The blind act in blindness.

    There is an old story of a fakir and his disciple where the disciple also confused in thinkin that free will is absolute asks his teacher, "Oh sire we are taught that we have free will then i wish to know why we are also told to follow the will of God. Am i not able to do whatever i want by the power of my own will?"

    The fakir answers, "let me show you what the free will of man is". The disciple was standing so the fakir asks him to life one foot off the ground. The disciple lifts his left foot off the ground, thinking to himself, see i made the decision adn then carried it out. No one had any control over.

    The fakir then tells him "now lift ur right foot off the ground, but the condition is that you can't put your other foot down while doing so." The disciple tries, but as much as he tries he is unable to lift his right foot off the ground without bringin his left back onto the ground.

    This is the state of mans free will. We make one decision but as soon as we are faced with another decision we have to recant or change our previous decision so that the new one can be carried out. What kind of absolute free will is it where we cant even hold on to our previous decisions? Where we repent our eariler decisions and have to change them because they don't allow us to carry out new ones.

    This is why the guru has taught us that if u wish to use your free will for anything use it to submit yourself to the will of the guru. That is why each time we mutha taik, we are saying that GuruJi, i know nothing and am capable of nothing so please take me under your guidance and show me the correct way.

    so isKu sKw bMDpu hY BweI ij gur ky Bwxy ivic AwvY ]
    He alone is a Sikh, a friend, a relative and a sibling, who walks in the Way of the Guru's Will.
    AwpxY BwxY jo clY BweI ivCuiV cotw KwvY ]
    One who walks according to his own will, O Siblings of Destiny, suffers separation from the Lord, and shall be punished

    This serves two purposes. Firstly, the will of the Guru is the same as the Will of God for the guru lives 100% in accordance to the will of God. Everythin the guru says or does is in tune with the Will of God.

    Secondly, it instill a sense of humility in the Sikh. The Guru Granth Sahib begins with the question how can man come to realize God and become one with Him and the answer follows by living according to the Divine Will. This is the foundation of a Sikhs life. Now somone can easily start following His Will, they can start keepin their hair and say see i am keeping hair cuz it is Gods Will, they can adopt the five kakaar and say see i am keeping the uniform of Khalsa cuz it is the Gurus will, and so on. IN each case while they are indeed following the Will of God/Guru a sense of ego develops in their mind that look how wonderful a devotee of God i've become thru my following the Divine WIll. But the guru says, one who still holds onto even the slightest sense of "I" or "me" that person is still far from living according to Gods will.

    That is why in the very next lines of Guru Granth Sahib, the guru goes on to give us some example of the absoluteness of the DIvine Will and how everything ultimately falls under it. In the very end the guru says:

    hukmY AMdir sBu ko bwhir hukm n koie ]
    Everyone is subject to His Command; no one is beyond His Command.
    nwnk hukmY jy buJY q haumY khY n koie ]2]
    O Nanak, one who understands His Command, does not speak in ego.

    This does not mean that we will completely be able to explain or comprehend every detailed working of His Will. For that is beyond mans comprehension. Whatit means is when a man comes to appreciate and understand the fact that no matter what he does, God is aware and present in that, that our own free will is miniscule and powerless in the face of Gods Supreme Will, that person will humbly submit himself before the LOrd and start living according to the Will of God.

    He will no longer try to resists or oppose Gods will by doing things according to his own likings or preferences. He will no longer say that what happened here was bad and become angry or sad, and nor will he say what happened here was great and become ecstatic. He will accept whatever God does as good, and anything good which happens in his own life he will not take credit for it but say that it is the grace of God Himself who made it all possible.

    Thru reading gurbani we should come to understand that:

    qU krih su scy Blw hY gur sbid buJwhI ]
    Whatever You do is good, O True Lord; this understanding is obtained through the Word of the Guru's Shabad.
    qU krx kwrx smrQu hY dUjw ko nwhI ]
    You are the Cause of causes, the All-powerful Lord; there is no other at all.

    jo ikCu kry so Blw kir mwnIAY ihkmiq hukmu cukweIAY ]
    Whatever the Lord does, accept that as good; do away with your own cleverness and self-will.

    And ultimately we will reach the stage where we see nothing but God and Gods doing all around us and be able to emrace it with open loving arms, just as the thousands of shaheed singhs and singhnis of the past equaly embraced the gruesome tortures they were put thru with the same smiling face as they embraced the companionship of the guru.

    PrIdw duKu suKu ieku kir idl qy lwih ivkwru ]
    Fareed, look upon pleasure and pain as the same; eradicate corruption from your heart.
    Alh BwvY so Blw qW lBI drbwru ]109]
    Whatever pleases the Lord God is good; understand this, and you will reach His Court.


    Im sure ive left a great deal unexplained for i myself am just starting to understand many of these deeper concepts within Sikhi. Hopefully others will be able to add to this and give better explanations and examples.
     
  12. devinesanative

    devinesanative
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    511
    Likes Received:
    10
    Guru is one who removes darkness and enlightens you , a Guru can be anything or anyone .

    Even if by grace of God , words of wisdom are uttered by a prostitute which removes darkness and enlightens you , then she is also a Guru .

    If any event in your life removes darkness and enlightens you then that event is the Guru.

    As Gurumukh is not one who worships a bodily human being , but one who thoughts and actions are in syncronous with Gods Will , and has 360 degrees perception, and that also by will of God.
     
  13. bindi

    bindi
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2005
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    2
    I agree with kharkhoo4life exposition of Divine Will vs. Free Will. But there is one statement of his which I don't agree:-

    "This does not mean that we will completely be able to explain or comprehend every detailed working of His Will. For that is beyond mans comprehension."

    While it is true that we may never be able to COMPLETELY COMPREHEND and EXPLAIN the concept of Divine Will and Free Will, that should NEVER stop us from striving to develop a better picture or a better model of understanding it.

    The present method of explanation, that is to say "All is the will of God, realize this and you will be happy" is just too simplistic. It sounds shallow and unintelligent. It shows our lack of depth in understanding Gurbani. It?s the sort of answer one would hear from someone who hasn?t fully gasp the concept at hand. It illustrates a lack of insight into the subject.

    This is not to say such a statement is wrong. Indeed, in a higher plane of awareness it might be all that?s true. But for the common Sikh who is still struggling to come to terms with his existence and his will (what more the will of a supremely divine being), such explanations does not endear Sikhi to him or her. That's one of the reason the present younger generation of educated and thinking Sikhs are shying away from Sikhi. Many feel that religion is too mysterious, to occultist to fathom. And what they don?t understand, they don?t bother to practice. Such explanations may have been sufficient for our forefathers who were simple minded peasants and farmers in Punjab, but to today?s Sikhs, educated in some of the finest universities in the world and holding down distinguished jobs and business, such explanations no longer cut it. Statements like "don't try to understand, just follow the Guru" irritate people. Did our Guru prohibit us to understand? Did our Guru want us to follow him blindly? Did our Guru asked us to stop asking questions? Why have we become dum-witted? Why have we stopped pondering, stop probing into the very heart of Sikhi?

    I remember the shakhis of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. He was quite the trouble-maker when he was young. Forever questioning the wisdom of his day. Is this not what made him special? He questioned the Arabic alphabets, he questioned the customs and traditions of his time, he even question the way people prayed.

    Why can't we do the same now? Why can't we question, probe, analyze, theorize, develop models of understanding to explain the very things our forefathers thought were unexplainable?

    I believe there is a logical way to explain God's Will and Free Will. It need not be perfect. It need not even be true. But as long as it helps us to make better sense of Gurbani and bring us and our younger generation closer to our Guru then it has done it's job. The next generation can refine it, alter it or even throw it out in favor of a better explanation. That way we would have prevented our religion from becoming fossiled in thinking and in faith.

    The point I'm trying to make is that to say vital parts of Sikhi cannot be explained does not help anyone. We must be open to new ways of thinking. We must develop newer understanding and newer explanations. It will not make our religion less real or less original. In fact I think it will breathe a new fresh air of faith into it. It will rejuvenate it. It will make it ever more relevant to the challenge of our times.

    I feel the Guru would want us to do just that - keep Sikhi ever new and ever fresh.

    In my next posting I hope to show how that is possible.

    Guru Ki Fateh.
     
  14. devinesanative

    devinesanative
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    511
    Likes Received:
    10
    Why one should Read and Follow in toto the religious Scriptures ?

    The Religious Scriptures are Itself written by human beings , as per their perception.

    The Life itself is a big and great Book to read and Understand and analyse .

    Its okay that whatever is happening its happening due to God .

    But , the way people percieve God , is not that way . God is not dicatating each and everyone to do this and to do this .

    The God has delegated some responsibilities to human beings also , not only human beings but also to animals , thats why He has given to some animals fierce paws to prey for their food .

    If everything God would have been controlling then human beings would have been multiplying like amaeba ...

    Believing and having Faith in God is , When we exercise and use the resources gifted to us by God rather than relying on books , which are also written by those who have exercised and used the gifts of God .


    Sometimes , human beings , use God as ScapeGoat ...
     
  15. drkhalsa

    drkhalsa
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Messages:
    1,308
    Likes Received:
    54
    Dear Bindi

    Sat Shri Akal


    I read your question and felt i should also try to explain as understanding given to by AKAL

    Your question is very essential and relevant for any body on spirtual journey and is also menifestation of what be call dubida/ duality.
    I think such question should dissapear once the duality is gone

    That also happens with the will of AKAL

    Now lets take up some terms which we usually use in such disscusion I mean the disscusion of Free will

    HUKAM of AKAL , Mans Free Will , Gods Will

    Now take an very common example which every vody especially new generation relate very well i.e Vedio Game

    If you have come accross some game like MAX Pane , Halo some other Mission based game ,there are many available in market

    Now the Programmer of the Game is Like God And the game he has programmed is Like the creation created by GOD

    Now when we play such games there are thousand of possible moves , and many many ways in which you go about the game and that is like free will of man in life with millions of moves
    Now the important point is even though there are thousand of moves in games but each and every move is designed comciously by the programmer he has been designing each and every of it , no matter how different move you choose while playing it has been designed by the programmer and you cant go beyond that moves
    Similarly the AKAL the Greatest Programmer has planned unlimited moves for man but still he is the programmer and he himself designed each and every move so No matter how creative man become and everything he do is something which has been programmed By AKAL

    Now Think of your questions again man has a free will offcourse as it appears here but mans free will is limited by the will of akal and in real sense just the will of akal .
    as each and every possible thing that man can do has been hand designed by Akal the Graetest programmer even before the man was created

    So Now Man has a Free Will but Still it is Will OF AKAL in Real sense


    Now coming to second issue of HUKAM OF AKAL

    Coming back to Vedio game again now in each game there is mision to be done to progress to next stage or finish/win the Game

    So there are some set of particular moves which you have toperform so that you can complete the mission and obviously these moves has been decided by the Programmer of the Game . the moment you follow them you clear the stage or complete the mission

    This is just like HUKAM OF AKAL for each and every situation in life there is a move or choice with Human that is designed by AKAL and that is the HUKAM OF AKAL and as the human follows it man clears the Missiom of his life as required by AKAL

    Now Look at all the things Together


    For each and every situation in life every human has a tool of Free WILL which essentially the included in WILL OF AKAL But there is one right choice that is HUKAM OF AKAL which will coplete the mission

    Now last thing is It is Clear that Man has a Free Will BUt it is still a will of AKAL but the Mission of mans life is Recognize that Hukam OF AKAL

    So for A GURMUKH / Enlightened One there is essentially no Free Will BUT Only The HUKAM OF AKAL


    Now at LAST one more Thing when People say that if Everything is iWill of AKAL /GOD
    the why we get punishment

    Now come gain to the game thing
    In a game if go by particular move and suffer loses and even die in game than will you blame the programmer of the game about your condition in game
    Essentially NO because you will know that you have done particular moves and you got yourself in particular situation

    And we start labelling the Situations in Life as punishment or reward but essentially whole creation is just Game of AKAL .and there is no Heaven No Hell they just the labels who we precieve the WILL OF AKAL


    One more thing when I say that human has to recognise the Hukam OF Akal thet doesnot mean that for each and every situation you start looking in the Scripture for the Hukam of AKAL
    Because the HUkam of akal is not a sataic message but the state of being when you realise the GOD/ Become Gurmukh/become Enlightened Hukam just happens to you spontaneously
    and ther is no other choice
    Take an example from Sikh History When Kashmiri Pandit Came to Guru Teg Bahadur
    So the Great Great Personalities who were one with AKAL I mean Guru Teg Bahadur And Guru Gobind Singh JI ( were very young at the time) were faced with situation and they had no problem taking the choice Because they had no Choice just the Hukam of AKAL
    Both Spontaneously recognised it and agreed on it that Guru Teg Bahadur will give His Head for Kashmiri Pandit so there was no Question no disscusion Just the Hukam of AKAL


    I am not sure that all I have written will make any sense to anybody but I am thankful to YOu that you gave me chance to write this and during the process I learned man things and many new things came to my mind with The Will of AKAL


    Jatinder Singh
     
  16. Amarpal

    Amarpal
    Expand Collapse
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2004
    Messages:
    591
    Likes Received:
    364
    Dear Bindi Ji,

    The answer to your question based on my understanding is No and Yes both.

    If God was controlling every thing then every one would have been a sage. We all know that it is not so. It tells that God is not controlling every thing.

    As I understand, each individual is autonomus. The individual is free to act, but the outcome is fully controlled by 'Laws of Karma', which is totally controlled by the God. To conceptualise it, for understanding, I divide it into three parts (i) the actions of the individual are the input to the process, these are in the individual's domain (ii) the 'Laws of Karma' is the process to which the individual's actions are the input and (iii) The Hukam of the God is the output of the process of 'Laws of Karma', which impacts on the individual in positive or negative manner.

    For an ordinary self-centered worldly person (Manmukh) the first element is with the individual the second and third are with God.

    For the God-centered person (Gurmukh), even the first element too is godly, as Gurmukh is an instrument of the will of God, this individual has shed her or his selfcenteredness; she or he has willingly surrendered the individuality to the God.

    So you can see there cannot be a very clearcut answer to you question in the form yes or no. The answer is dependent on the spiritual level of the individual.

    Further the Karma is not to be taken as a specific action at a time. It is some total of all the past actions to which the latest act is to be added. The sum total of Karmas include the Karmas of the individual's past births also.

    With love and respect for all.

    Amarpal Singh
     
  17. devinesanative

    devinesanative
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    511
    Likes Received:
    10
    Dear Drkhalsa,

    Your Post did make a sense and is wonderfull , in a concrete way .

    I liked it .

    By the way , How did you Stole my idea ?:p
     
  18. drkhalsa

    drkhalsa
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Messages:
    1,308
    Likes Received:
    54
    Lately Vijaydeep Singh has been teaching me about his techniques of mind reading and now I think Its clear how I stole it .....! Right!
    :u): :p :rofl:



    Jatinder Singh
     
  19. bindi

    bindi
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2005
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    2
    Veer Jatinderji allegory of God's Will vs. Free Will using the environment of a computer video game is very interesting.

    Like him, I have often thought of creation as a programmed entity - one with a fixed set of laws - something very similar to a video game alluded to by him. Following these laws leads one to emancipation. Breaking these laws leads one to damnation. But unlike Veer Jatinderji, I have never really been comfortable with such a metaphor. The reason for this is not because the allegory in inaccurate but because of it?s underlying connotations. Let me explain.

    In a video game the player has options to make choices. This is liken to free will. But the number of choices are limited. You only have a fixed set of function keys and even a fixed set of weapons. Even your energy or "lives" are limited. This fixed set of functions, weapons, energy or lives make up your resources. You use these resources to accomplish whatever task you want. Thus although you can make choices, your choices or resources are limited in scope.

    This illustration fits well with what we observed in life. In life although we are free to make choices, still our choices are limited to our resources. Beyond our resources we can only wonder what we might accomplish. Thus free will is at best only a freedom to choose from a certain set of resources. Free will is not the freedom to choose anything or everything.

    If we to turn our attention onto the detailed investigation of how human make choices, we will uncover even more unpleasant truths. We said earlier that free will is the freedom to choose. However often times, our decision to choose is not always ours to make. Our decisions are influenced by a many factors - chief among them are the availability of resource and our capacity to use them. Science have also uncovered that our decisions are also influenced by our sub-conscious mind. Since we do not know how our sub-conscious mind influence our decision-making, we have no way to control it. Thus our decisions may already have been made deep within the sub-conscious mind, long before we are given the opportunity to exercise it. This cast serious doubts on our believe of a free will.

    We ask then does free will really exist? All that we can be certain is we have choices. Whether we are truly "FREE" to make the best choices for ourselves may not always be true. Sometime choices are made for us. Sometimes we have no freedom to make the choices we would otherwise want to make. Sometimes it seems, no matter what choice we make, we are stuck with the same outcome ? a catch 22 situation. Sometimes we don?t even know how we made our choices or even why we made them!

    Thus I would conclude that life gives us only an illusionary control over our destiny through the instrument of free will. Free will can effect choices but it cannot determine the future outcome of those choices. Thus free will has no macrocosmic significance. It only has microcosmic importance.

    Therefore it would seem that after a long and hard search, I have come to the same conclusions as the Guru ? namely that man is not the ultimate maker of his destiny. What does this mean for the question we posed earlier - ?does God control everything??. Does free will?s lack of independence suggest that God is in charge of everything?

    To me both are separate questions. The answer of one does not automatically settled the enigma of the second. This means that if free will is not King, it does not mean God?s Will is controlling everything. We will see why in my next posting.

    Bindi
     
  20. bindi

    bindi
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2005
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    2
    We continue our discussion on the topic ?Does God control everything??. In my previous post I have concluded that Man?s free will does not govern everything ? not even his own destiny. I suggested that though the question of Man?s free will appeared answered, it does not yet answer the main question if God controls everything.

    Delving deeper into the video game allegory used earlier, we uncover even more disturbing truths. A video game is created by the programmer for the purpose to entertain. If we liken our life to a video game, does it mean that Life is created for someone's amusement? Is someone playing with us? It would certainly appear so. Before you say that I am over-reacting, let?s take a look at how Sikhs? view life.

    For the Sikh, life is ?God?s play? as stated in the SGGS:-
    Page 8, Line 11
    Day and night are the two nurses, in whose lap all the world is at play. - Guru Angad Dev

    Page 11, Line 18
    All living beings are Your playthings. - Guru Ram Das

    Page 18, Line 8
    The world is a drama, staged in a dream. In a moment, the play is played out.- Guru Nanak Dev

    There are so many verses that speak of the play of life that we can quote. I do not thing it is necessary to quote more.

    Thus to the Sikh mind, God created this play. This play according to Sikhi is not REAL. It is only a dream, an illusion. If Life is a dream, an illusion, what about us? Are we also nothing more then someone?s dream. Are we not REAL?

    Some Sikhs say that WE are REAL but Life is NOT. They say that the atma is REAL but the body we live in is NOT real. That means God put us real people into an illusionary body to dream? Is that what we believe? If this is true than we need to ask these people why God did that? Why did God put us ? trap us ? into an illusionary life? What?s the idea? For what purpose?

    Some Sikhs say that God want us to escape from this circle of births and deaths through Naam Simran. If God wanted us to escape from this circle of births and deaths why did He create such a circle in the first place?

    Look at us Sikhs. What type of God do we believe in? A God that make a play out of life? A God that ?plays? with us? A God that traps us in an endless circle of births and deaths and then gives us a hukam to escape from it? Is this our God? Is this what Akal Purukh really is? To me it does not sound like a good God. Does it sound like a good God to you?

    Some will say that God created the universe and Life so that we may ?realize? him. If so why did he not make us angels or something ? creatures who are forever in his presence? Why did he exile us on this lonely planet doomed to wander year after year if He even care if we exist? Why put us through all this dukh (suffering)? Some then will cleverly say that dukh is brought about by Karma. And who created this law called Karma? I certainly didn?t. Did you?

    So we are left to wonder if God really is in charge of everything. We are left to think if this idea isn?t just a myth handed down through the generations.

    Bindi
     
  21. devinesanative

    devinesanative
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    511
    Likes Received:
    10
    Nothing is as cleverer as the human beings on this planet earth .

    The Human beings are the only cleverer creatures , who even don't spare GOD in their cleverer tricks to survival .

    GOD is just used as the scapegoat by human beings their survival and fulfillment of their desires .

    Those who talk about sin , bad ,evil even they know that nothing sort of that thing exists ,

    The desire of one human being is a sin for another human being .


    All over the world , religions are only made for this :

    "I can do all the things , If you do any of these things what I do , You have committed a crime , sin , evil"

    Each and every human being follows the above line whether directly or indirectly .

    Even if there is .001 truth in this world , then that truth is the fodder for justification for those commit falsehood and tell lie.
     

Share This Page