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Do we Sikhs have too much arrogance?

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by SS0606, Apr 9, 2007.

  1. SS0606

    SS0606
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    Firstly I would like to explain that my dad is Sikh and mum is Hindu and so I associate with people of both religions but mostly Sikh. I can honestly say that I go to Gurdwara more than I go to Mandir and consider myself a Sikh and to be honest, my mum has never reinforced me to go Mandir, it was always entirely up to me.

    I have a very close Hindu Punjabi friend. She is the only Hindu in our group of friends, but because she is Hindu PUNJABI she never felt out of place and we never treated her differently. Well so I thought....

    Her family recently had a havan at the local Mandir and I went, once I got there I realised I was the only person (Sikh person) from our friend group there. I asked my friend where everyone else was and her answer to me was 'I don't think they like the idea of coming to the Mandir' I was quite offended by what she said, but when I rang my friends after the havan to my suprise she was right! They made comments like 'what are we gonna do at the temple with stupid brahmins praying around fire'

    It made me quite angry, because whenever any of us have had a Kirtan at the Gurdwara she always makes the effort to come and sits throughout the paat. She has enough respect to come and show us that she cares. I felt as if my friends had given Sikhs a bad name. It was completely disrespectful.

    To add to the disrespect - as we know Vaisakhi is round the corner, each year we ask my Hindu friend to come to the Nagar Kirtan with us and she always would. She would participate equally, do seva, keep her head covered things which are essential and things which even our young SIKHS don't do at the Kirtan and just come for a joke and laugh to meet friends. This weekend one of my friends said to her 'Why are you comming? You're not even Sikh' and now for that reason she said she isn't going to come.

    Whatever she did was out of respect and I feel as if we have thrown it in her face and said we don't want it! My mum is Hindu, she goes to Gurdwara with my grandma every Sunday and my Grandma will probably go twice a year if that.

    It suprises me because Sikhism teaches us to respect other religions! I wish I could say that maybe it is just the younger generation but then where do they learn this from?

    Is this arrogance? To me it looks like school kids argueing about who's painting is better apart from in this case it's who's religion is better?


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  3. Prit paul kaur

    Prit paul kaur
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    No we are not arrogant! Some of us are immature or they donot know how to behave in such situations.May be they were never invited before to visit to mandir or they may have heard so much negative about mandir.I donot know why your friends have behaved that way but they have lost the opportunity to learn something new.
    Faith-Religion is something internal related to human subjectivity.You can visit to the religious place of any other community and respect any other religion.It will no way affect your own faith or religion.
     
  4. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    dear ss0606

    from 2 past years i am regularly participating in sikh discussion forums and what my experiance from these discussions is that sikhs living outside india are becoming intolerant of other religions especially of hinduism,mainly because of events of 80s.they even mock hindu rituals and practices and if in retaliation hindu's attack sikh practices then they feel offended.

    what happened with your hindu friend is wrong and i think you should stand for her .
     
  5. sachchasoda

    sachchasoda
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    we must love and respect all.

    avaall allah noor upaeaa kudrat ke sabh bande
    ek noor te sabh jag upjeaa kon bhalai kon mande.---

    if we call ourselves Sikhs, we must obey our Guru

    Avil Alh nUru aupwieAw kudriq ky sB bMdy ]
    eyk nUr qy sBu jgu aupijAw kaun Bly ko mMdy ]1]
    logw Brim n BUlhu BweI ]
    Kwilku Klk Klk mih Kwilku pUir rihE sRb TWeI ]1] rhwau ]
    mwtI eyk Anyk BWiq kir swjI swjnhwrY ]
    nw kCu poc mwtI ky BWfy nw kCu poc kuMBwrY ]2]
    sB mih scw eyko soeI iqs kw kIAw sBu kCu hoeI ]
    hukmu pCwnY su eyko jwnY bMdw khIAY soeI ]3]
    Alhu AlKu n jweI liKAw guir guVu dInw mITw ]
    kih kbIr myrI sMkw nwsI srb inrMjnu fITw ]4]
     
  6. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
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    I have been to Hindu mandirs, Christian churches, Jewish synagogues and Muslim mosques. As a Sikh, why would I go back to those places of worship knowing it was not for me? Such things only breed confusion. We should not mix traditions or religious paths. Tolerance is shown in not trying to convert anybody, or disrespecting anybody's free choice. It is not tolerance to participate with other faiths in their worship and rituals. The reason you visit Hindu mandir and Gurudwara equally is because thats within your family.

    While it is a kind invitation and intended with friendliness, to accept would be innapropriate. First, for a Hindu, nothing in a Gurudwara would offend the Hindu faith. However, to go to a mandir dedicated worship of plural gods and idols and ritualistic practices is not a part of Sikhi. All places of worship should be shown utmost respect because Akal Purakh is in those places. Nothing should be mocked or disrespected, neither should it be accepted and agreed with. Can you join in singing bhajan kirtan to Hanuman and Durga ma? Should you eat parshad offered to idols? For what purpose are you there?

    Taking this example of tolerance to another level, what would be wrong in visiting a Muslim mosque? Or attending Muslim events, such as debates or teaching of Quran with a Muslim friend? Is it tolerance to mix in like this? Or does it expose someone to influences which don't blend in with Sikhi? The Gurudwara is open to all faiths without expectation of conversion. But all faiths want to subsume Sikhi within the umbrella of their fold. Muslims and Christians want conversion. Hindu's consider Sikhi a sect of Hinduism.

    To visit a Hindu mandir as a Sikh is to be honoring the gods of that mandir. If you have a friend and she likes to participate in Sikh events, well and good. But why is part of being her friend involving Sikhs in Hindu practices and worship? What are you going to do in that mandir? Stand there and refuse everything as "not a Hindu?" Or participate as "not a Sikh?" Now if it is a wedding invitation of a friend or something, that is different. Otherwise, it's simply an invitation to participate in Hindu way of worship. While this path has a lot of beauty and wisdom within it, the path is a valid path for Hindus but Sikhs do not belong there at all. You should correct your friends for their disrespect, but not badger them into going. Perhaps they can apologize to her for any bad comments and gently explain why they cannot go. Then it is up to her to accept or not.

    [​IMG]
    Why would a Sikh be in this Temple?
     
  7. simpy

    simpy
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    Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,


    when you have friends from all over the world and from many religious beliefs, it is not easy to skip their religious functions. i take it as an opportunity to know what they do in their ceremonies. sometimes it is totally opposite to what my beliefs are, does it matter-not to me.

    just being there does not take anything away from me. if you are always engrossed in NaamSimran, nothing can effect you negatively. i never participate, but always aware of what they doing and simply watch them performing their rituals.

    i can understand it is hard for some people, i am married to one who cannot tolerate this. and i respect that, if you cannot do this without getting angry or feeling awkward; simply avoid this kind of situation.

    but for me this kind of social behavior has brought many of our friends(from other faiths) to attend our religious functions, and many of them are always borrowing books from me to read about Sikhism. lots of my friends and my kid's friends are already learning Gurbani.


    forgive me please
     
  8. Boota

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    You have to look at the situation in the round. The fact is that we are not arrogant enough. We are allowing ourselves to be immersed into another religion without even putting up a fight. Our forefathers would be ashamed of us. What is happening to Sikhi where we think more of other faiths than we do of our own? What do the Sikh youngsters know about their faith and what is happening to them?

    There is concerted, organised effort going on to by groups to eventually ‘hijack’ Sikhism and streamline it into mainstream Hinduism. You can see it gradually unfolding before your eyes.

    It is time to go back to basics and learn what is the real meaning of Sikhism and why it came into existence.
     
  9. SS0606

    SS0606
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    Dear Boota ji

    I completely agree that youngsters in my age group have little or even no knowlegde of Sikhism but that still doesn't give us the right to criticise other religions. When my Hindu friend comes to gurdwara she receited what the rest of the sangat would be saying as well. If you were to go to a mandir would you sing along to the artis they sing?

    As Surinder Kaur Cheema ji pointed out just being at another religious place of worship, it doesn't take away the fact that one is a Sikh. She also pointed out that if you are always engrossed in Naam Simran, nothing can effect you negatively.

    I understand that going to a mandir and joining in with the paat they do is out of the question (or any other religious place). What my point is, is that we should go out of respect and especially if the person who invites us, respects us as Sikhs and come to Gurdwara.
     
  10. Boota

    Boota
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    I agree with all of that of course.

    The key is determining if someones is inviting you with respect or whether there are ulterior motives. My point is that there is a great deal of the latter going on. It is not a question of disrespecting other religions, but of self-preservation.
     
  11. ISDhillon

    ISDhillon
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    I have hindu freinds too, when they go to the gurdwara they criticise pictures of 84 shaheeds, this makes me not want to go to the mandir as I see it as an insult to go to a place with people who dishonour the dead that I respect, sometimes its just best to listen to youre instinct, this is not ego, its self-preservation, would you rather I sit amongst a people that offend those I care about?
     
  12. Rubicon

    Rubicon
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    Interesting thread to read. I appreciate the opportunity to have a glimpse of other points of view. Thanks you for that.
     
  13. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
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    The average Sikh is nowhere near this level of spiritual jeevan, and thus he is completely vulnerable to sophisticated political agendas and negativity. While everyone has their individual choice, no Sikh should ever be shamed or badgered into attending a Hindu mandir or Muslim mosque or Christian church just because their friend likes to attend Gurudwara.
     
  14. simpy

    simpy
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    Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,

    if we are at some place-leave alone what type religious or unreligious, if our mind is not accepting what is going around us and causing aggitation-WHAT IS THE USE TO BE THERE???


    ARE WE ASKING OURSELVES-WHY OUR MIND GETS AGITATED??????


    AND THEN WHAT TO DO TO BRING IT TO PEACE??????


    DHAN DHAN SIRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI-every panna has the answer all over........

    Do we want to listen to Guru Ji and then live accordingly????

    -----again MIND has to accept the WORD-------


    forgive me please
     
  15. sachchasoda

    sachchasoda
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    suixAw mMinAw min kIqw Bwau ]
    AMqrgiq qIriQ mil nwau ]
    siB gux qyry mY nwhI koie ]
    ivxu gux kIqy Bgiq n hoie ]

    I am surprised we want nonSikhs to come to Gurdwara

    they shouldn't feel awkward there-after being among those where most people are walking around with Kirpans!

    We shouldn't go to their religious places because we have all the good reasons.
    And Gurbani tells us-
    rwmklI mhlw 5 ]
    koeI bolY rwm rwm koeI Kudwie ]
    koeI syvY guseIAw koeI Alwih ]1]
    kwrx krx krIm ]
    ikrpw Dwir rhIm ]1] rhwau ]
    koeI nwvY qIriQ koeI hj jwie ]
    koeI krY pUjw koeI isru invwie ]2]
    koeI pVY byd koeI kqyb ]
    koeI EFY nIl koeI supyd ]3]
    koeI khY qurku koeI khY ihMdU ]
    koeI bwCY iBsqu koeI surigMdU ]4]
    khu nwnk ijin hukmu pCwqw ]
    pRB swihb kw iqin Bydu jwqw ]5]



    Alhu gYbu sgl Gt BIqir ihrdY lyhu ibcwrI ]
    ihMdU qurk duhUM mih eykY khY kbIr pukwrI ]



    BweI gurdws jI-

    isv skqI noN swDkY cMd sUr idhu rwq sdwey]
    suK duK swDy hrK sog nrk surg puMn pwp lµGwey]
    jnm mrx jIvn mukiq Blw burw im`qR SqR invwey]
    rwj jog ijx v`s kr swD sMjog ivjog rhwey]
    vsgiq kIqI nINd BuK Awsw mnsw ijx Gr Awey]
    ausqiq inµdw swD kY ihMdU muslmwn sbwey]
    pYrIN pY pYKwk sdwey ]






    this will be 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999(9 even more 9999)% of this earth for most of us
    9999((getting furious))9999


    Is being a friend is only limited to non-religious friendship. i dont think True friendship is limited to anything. We cannot call them our friends who are with us only on the basis of their or our RELIGIOUS CONDITIONS. This makes it a conditional friendship-matlab prastee.

    So you tell me, my friends father died, he was only 51 years old. My friend is a Christian. We both live together in the dorm, we eat together, we talk everyday for endless hours. Can I refrain myself from being with my best friend at this sad occassion of his life? Should I bring my religion/his religion in the way. DOESNT HE NEED ME AT THIS HOUR? Or should I start thinking -oops it is in a church, and tell him-sorry I cant come.
    what a friendship!
    Does Gurbani teach us this?
     
  16. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
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    I said in the above post that for special occasions like a wedding or something where you have a business to be there what could be at issue. Tell me where Gurbani says Sikhs have to attend worship services of other religions to be friendly and accepting of people. Just mixing it up with other religions is destructive. Again I say, why should a Sikh, or anybody be BADGERED AND SHAMED into having to prove loyalty to a friend by having to attend worship services not of his own faith? So he can stand there and not participate? Or so he can become accustomed to the services and begin to participate? What would be the point? If it's liberalism and tolerance, then lets all go the the local Mosque and listen to classes on the spiritual supremacy of Islam where scholars will come to denounce Sikhi with well-planned arguments. You don't see the danger, well thats okay.
     
  17. sachchasoda

    sachchasoda
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    Ji Harjas Ji I love it when you go to the extreme. I am not sure, sometimes i feel this from your posts- do you believe that Sikhs are superior than others?

    Because all the arrogance you show could be from that type of thinking.
    Guru ji want us to become SAGAL KI RENKA-dust of everybody's feet.

    bhul chuk maaf karna
     
  18. JtotheAtothe...

    JtotheAtothe...
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    We are all arrogant.

    Everyone.

    Regardless of religion.
     
  19. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
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    Thank you for your kind words. Guruji DOES NOT want Sikhs to be the dust of the feet and trampled into nonexistence by missionaries of other religions.

    Do you see Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Christians mixing and diluting their traditions by absorbing influence of every other faith? No! Yet you are not calling Hindu's, Christians, Muslims or Buddhists arrogant...

    only Sikhs are said to be arrogant, unspiritual, prideful who are not groveling at the feet to eat the dust of attacks by Hindutva missionaries, Muslim missionaries, Christian missionaries...This is kaliyug, not an era of respectful unity like satyug. In this era we must be guardians of our children's faith from relentless undermining. If we cannot be defenders of ourselves, we cannot be any kind of defender of the rights of anybody else.

    NO ONE SHOULD BE FORCED, BADGERED, SHAMED TO ATTEND WORSHIP SERVICES OR TEMPLE OF ANOTHER FAITH OUT OF SELF-RESPECT, NOT ARROGANCE!

    Sikhs need more SELF-RESPECT, more actual knowledge of Sikhi, especially the kids before they go out and indiscriminately absorb ideas and practices different from the teachings of their own faith. It's beyond arrogance to presume Sikhs have to grovel at the feet of the religious beliefs of others. No orthodox Jews in their right mind would visit a Buddhist temple or allow his kids to go. No orthodox Christian would even be seen in a Muslim Mosque. No Hindu joins in Christian celebrations or Muslim debates. WHY? Because they are avoiding missionaries who insist they degrade their own independant faiths and encourage their assimilation into the dominant faith. These religions all have self-respect and independant autonomy. Why dont we?

    It is not "spiritual" to eat dust of the feet of assimilation.

    Rashtri Sikh Sangat RSS Hinduization
    Panthic Weekly: Hate Crimes Against Sikhs Eventually Recognized by Police
    Christian Aggression - Sikh and Destroy
    Panthic Weekly: Punjab – Missionary Zeal & Extremism
     
  20. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    harjas kaur ji

    its true for christianity and islam but for hinduism and buddhism its not true.there is a lot of influence of other religion on hinduism.millions of hindu's in india visit dargah's.similarly many hindu's also visit gurdwara's and some also visit churches
    buddhism is also practiced in china ,japan and lanka in different ways with lot of influence of their native religion.

    christian and muslims
     
  21. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
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    Hindu's don't have missionaries? What is RSS-VHP? It's not Gurmat to allow assimilation and infiltration.





    [​IMG]
    Distortion calculated to assimilate.
     

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