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Do we need "intermediaries" in Sikhism ?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Gyani Jarnail Singh, Jan 5, 2005.

  1. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

    Looking at the preponderance of "Sants" and "Brahmgianis" on the Sikhi Scene today I cant help but wonder If we have fallen into the Well that Guru ji pulled us out of.

    When GURU NANAK JI came on the Scene...."Satgur nanak Pargitaya, miti dhund jagg chhanann hoiya" Bhai Gurdass ( and Bhai Ji is NOT discussing the weather here !!)..the BRAHMAN/PROHIT/MIDDLEMAN/SADHU/HOLYMAN/God's AGENT etc had the entire Hindu Population by the NOSE RING. NO ONE dared say a single word agaisnt the Brahman...every thing was done after consulting him..he had an absolute stranglehold on everybody's lives...KNOWLEDGE/LANGUAGE/SACRED TEXTS were his EXCLUSIVE DOMAIN...any body else specifically forbidden at pain of DEATH to listen/read these texts etc...a Shudra who even accidentally happen to "hear" the sacred texts being read would be punished by having molten lead poured into his ears..or his tongue pulled out if he was caught reading them...

    GURU JI began His 250 Year LONG and arduous MISSION to UPROOT the BRAHMAN..GURBANI was written in the Comon man's language, Gurbani was made accessible to all, no intermediraies was made the RULE rther than the exception, For EACH SIKH was Guru ji made it Compulsory to study his own scriptures, do ardass, pray etc..no dependance on the Priests or Brahmans..slowly but surely Guru ji succeeded in His Mission..the Brahman was uproted from Sikhi... but in the 200 years after 1708..Sikhs again fell into the same well... the "BRAHMAN" was back in SIKHI GUISE as the BRAHM-GIANI"..Ordinary Siksh placed these on such a High Pedestals that no Brahmgiani could do NO WRONG..He was as INFALLIBLE as the POPE of Middle Ages..Siksh began to quote sukhmani SAHIB... Brahmgiani ki gatt Brahmgiani janneh... ONLY a Brahmgiani can really know a Brahmgiani..efectively SEALING off all debate about accountability/mistakes/errors.. The SIKH had disregarded His GURU JI's ADVICE and put the Brahman noose in his nose and handed the string to the BRAHM-GIANI to pull in whichever direction he pleases.

    When we have a "surprise" for a loved one, we tell him/her.."close your eyes" and open them when I tell you to....a Brahmgiani in 1984 told an Entire Mass Grouping to CLOSE YOUR EYES KHALSA JI....and keep them closed until I tell you to open them...20 Years passed...no "surprise" is revealed...instead DEATH intervened...and....the Noose string is handed over to the next instant "Brahmgiani"...to keep the eyes closed until told to open them...for the surprise to unfold... amazing !!!..YES.. This is the power of the brahmgiani..Gurbani, GURU , Common Sense, everything takes second place... what the Brahmgiani says goes 100%...even when his words have been proven hollow.

    SIKHS must go back to their roots...GURBANI and GURU JI's EXAMPLE whereby NO intermediary is needed between aSIkh and Akal Purakh. There is NO priest, no sant, no sadhu, no barhmgiani in Sikhism..ALL these are for themsleves.NOT for us. Gurbani clearly and conclusively says..At the Darbar of Jam..NO ONE..not your dad, mum, grandpa, grandma, sant,baba,maharaj,brahmgiani, is going to STAND in for YOU... as you sow so shall you REAP.EACH person is rsponsible for his own. For over 400 years 1469-1930..there is NOT a SINGLE HUMAN addressed as SANT/BRAHMGIANI..in Sikh History... this mushrooming began after 1945..and since 1984 has grown expotentially...soon there will be more brahmgianis than sikhs. WHAT does this FACT PROVE ?? Judge for yourself.

    Jarnail Singh Gyani
     
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  3. Amarpal

    Amarpal
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    Dear Gyani Ji,

    I have an intermediary, i.e. Sri Guru Granth Sahib. I do not need any one else.

    With love and respect for all.
    Amarpal Singh
     
  4. drkhalsa

    drkhalsa
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    Dear Jarnail Singh ji

    Excellent topic gain by you but can you tell what specifically ( I mean person ...)you are trying to indicate in thi s quote


    Jatinder Singh
     
  5. Neutral Singh

    Neutral Singh
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    Just a vague guess... Gyani ji is refering to Baba Thakur Singh Ji who passed away recently ?
     
  6. drkhalsa

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    Well I aspected a answer from Jarnail ji any i yhink this is what he also meant and to my surprise It never came to my mind why would any body will say so (Jarnail singh Bhindrawale)is still alive when we have documentation and even vedio of his body , but I could not think of any reason but now at least i have one rational reason for such statement .
     
  7. drkhalsa

    drkhalsa
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  8. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki fateh.

    Yes i meant baba Thakur Singh Ji who passed away without revealing where Sant ji jarnail Singh is ....and the mystery is passed on to the next Jathedar to uphold.

    The Sikh kaum has been put into "PAUSE MODE" for the past 20 years by this move....just what the GOI needs to get its act together....

    The Mahaan Shahedee of a great martyr has been "paused" and thus nullified. Waiting for a nonexistent leader ??? is just passing the buck ?? NO deciisons need be made..because - stock answer is _ "Wait for SANT JI to come back..He will do what is necessary !!!" NO DIRECTION was given to us for 20 years and we are still being asked to keep our eyes closed..UNTIL SANT JI comes back.

    SANT JI was never afraid of any jail or any Govt..he went everywhere fearlessly and bravely.... so it is not his chracter to keep him hiding for 20 years...what can he posssibly do now that he couldnt do in the past 20 years IF he is indeed alive and in hiding ??? Clearly his "disappearance and hiding" is just a PAUSE MODE trick to put off decision making responsibility ( low level staff use this trick...Wait for the BOSS...i cant make any deciison..." )

    jarnail singh
     
  9. TeraRoop11

    TeraRoop11
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    Waheguru Ji KaKhalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

    Giani Jarnail Singh Ji, I think this is a great topic you have started. I would like to say, however, that I believe Brahmgianis do exist. Not in the way the Hindu Brahmins were, however, and definitely not the way those people are who claim to be sants and babas in the newspapers and magazines. For Sikhs, a Brahmgiani is that person who was the perfect Sikh, and they are God. In sukhmani Sahib da paath, there is also a tuk "Brahmgiani aap Parmesar." Brahmgiani is himself God, there is no difference. Or "Brahmgiani sadh jeevai, nahi marta." Like God, for he is God, Brahmgiani never dies. Even after there is a saskaar for the body, the Brahmgiani can come back into this world. And "Brahmgiani ka Kathhiya na Jaaye Adhaakhar." What Brahmgiani says will happen, WILL HAPPEN. The Brahmgiani's word is Waheguru's word, and no one can change that.But that Brahmgiani does not announce to the world, "LOOK! I'M A BRAHMGIANI! I AM GOD'S FAVORITE, AND I CAN SAVE YOU AND FIX ALL YOUR PROBLEMS IF YOU PAY ME!!!" No, we can only trust that person to be Brahmgiani which helps us without asking for anything in turn, without trying to make the status of a king in others' eyes. Only that person who really does try to help other Sikhs, and people in general, to find the path to God, without trying to make them run around behind him like a crazed fanatic who can't see anything else as right.


    And about Sikhs waiting around for 20 years before they could open their eyes and see the surprise and dance in glee, newsflash - you're not getting it. So all those people who are waiting for SANT Baba Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa, Bhindranwale to come back, they need to think why their mahaan, bahaadur leader would hide for TWENTY years, when they've been waiting for him so PATIENTLY to come and LEAD them, because they obviously don't know what to do. How long will they wait? They've already waited 20 years, will they wait another 20? 40? 100? It doesn't end. It never will. That's why you shouldn't wait. Instead of hoping and wishing and praying, and using a mountain of different arguments and well-known people's assurances to convince yourself that he will come back, because you're SO COMPLETELY lost as to how to live a religious life, maybe we should move on, and pave our own way for ourselves and our faith. So, Giani Jarnail Singh Ji, you're right, they've waited too long for someone to 'come back from the dead'. Everyone must move on. If you believe he has died, believe it, end of the matter, end of the discussion. And if people want to believe that he's alive, let them wait for him to come back and lead them.

    I hope no one took offense at my words. ::cool:2: I just spit out what I think, without stopping to think. ::cool:: Regards to all . . . . . . . . .
     
  10. Neutral Singh

    Neutral Singh
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    Dear Faujan, there is no need mention this... we are all here to collectively learn and evolve... feel yourself at home and ask & express anything that comes to your mind.. :)

    Please continue with the discussion... Regards
     
  11. Gurpreet Kaur

    Gurpreet Kaur
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    Despite what has been said, there are Brahmgyanis who do exist and have, take the example of Baba Nand Singh Ji..that should answer the original question. Something which may be hard for Jarnail Singh to accept as he seems to have a agenda against all Mahapurush.
     
  12. drkhalsa

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    Dear Khalsa ji

    I agree with you that brahmgyani do exist but this is no new thing they have always existed and they were there even at time of our guru ji even at that time there were many Brahmgyanis
    But the thing is what is their role in our life Brahmgyanis are there but for sikh Brahmgyani has nothing to give
    1 .The first thing is it is extremely difficult for any one to recognize and say for sure That particular person is Brahmgyani ( I think you will agree with me and gurbani also supprts this). You cant waste your precious life in identifing one and then following his advise . And when our ten Guruji Who were for Sure were Brahmgyanis gave us the Khazana of Guru Granth Sahib Which included all the possible help many brahmgyani can give you . So we have easier and trusted and sure way then why go for untrusted risky incomplete way

    2 . Even if you happen to meet a Bhramgyani what can he do for you , If we cant take inspiration from life of our guruji ( All Ten ) and learn anything do you think we can learn anything for present day Brahmgyanis

    I Agree with you I am not absolutely in any way in position to judge present day Brahmgyanis whether they are true or false . But ven if they are true and genuiene Brahmgyani even then I cant take the same inspiration from them ( for example Baba Nand JI ) as I can take from life and gurbani of Our ten Guruji
    And I can say without doubt That if it comes to showing path the life and teaching of our guruji is far far superior , doubtless when compared to Brahmgyani like Baba Nand ji so there is no question of confusion

    For me it is just matter of focus in life Brahmgyani do exist ok many true khalsa exist ok but Akal Purakh has not given me this life to identify them and then respect and follow them andat the end of my life basically waste my life Our Guruji Did this job of identifying nad making a True path for us we just have to travel on it and for this Guru granth Sahib is only thing we need And not any Brahmgyani


    Just as a example
    Baba Nand ji way of life confuses me bit like Baba nand ji did Kathoor Tapasya in forest , He never marries and as matter of fact ven advised other taking care of religious premesises to do so all these things prove that their way of life cant be compatred to way of life our guruji lived and expected their sikh to live like
    Rest is your own understanding till now all these thjings confuse me alot so In a way I am bit against the culture of Brahmgyanis whether he is a true or false

    Jatinder Singh
     
  13. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Bhen ji, I dont have any "agenda"..except to Actively PROMOTE the ONE and ONLY Sacha GURU-BRAHMGIANI AAP PARMESHAR- Dhan Dhan GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI..in whose August presence all other "brahmgianis" pale as stars when the Sun is out.

    No DOUBT as you put it...."brahmgianis" do exist..just as "STARS" also exist..Today as well as tomorrow....But the 64 million Dollar question is who needs "stars" when we have the SUN.



    I agree with what veer Ji Jatinder Singh says below:



    Dear Khalsa ji

    I agree with you that brahmgyani do exist but this is no new thing they have always existed and they were there even at time of our guru ji even at that time there were many Brahmgyanis
    But the thing is what is their role in our life Brahmgyanis are there but for sikh Brahmgyani has nothing to give
    1 .The first thing is it is extremely difficult for any one to recognize and say for sure That particular person is Brahmgyani ( I think you will agree with me and gurbani also supprts this). You cant waste your precious life in identifing one and then following his advise . And when our ten Guruji Who were for Sure were Brahmgyanis gave us the Khazana of Guru Granth Sahib Which included all the possible help many brahmgyani can give you . So we have easier and trusted and sure way then why go for untrusted risky incomplete way

    2 . Even if you happen to meet a Bhramgyani what can he do for you , If we cant take inspiration from life of our guruji ( All Ten ) and learn anything do you think we can learn anything for present day Brahmgyanis

    I Agree with you I am not absolutely in any way in position to judge present day Brahmgyanis whether they are true or false . But ven if they are true and genuiene Brahmgyani even then I cant take the same inspiration from them ( for example Baba Nand JI ) as I can take from life and gurbani of Our ten Guruji
    And I can say without doubt That if it comes to showing path the life and teaching of our guruji is far far superior , doubtless when compared to Brahmgyani like Baba Nand ji so there is no question of confusion

    For me it is just matter of focus in life Brahmgyani do exist ok many true khalsa exist ok but Akal Purakh has not given me this life to identify them and then respect and follow them andat the end of my life basically waste my life Our Guruji Did this job of identifying nad making a True path for us we just have to travel on it and for this Guru granth Sahib is only thing we need And not any Brahmgyani


    Just as a example
    Baba Nand ji way of life confuses me bit like Baba nand ji did Kathoor Tapasya in forest , He never marries and as matter of fact ven advised other taking care of religious premesises to do so all these things prove that their way of life cant be compatred to way of life our guruji lived and expected their sikh to live like
    Rest is your own understanding till now all these thjings confuse me alot so In a way I am bit against the culture of Brahmgyanis whether he is a true or false

    Jatinder Singh<<<<<<<<<<<<




    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    I would be very pleased to hear an explanation based on Gurbani quotes as to HOW Baba Nand Singh Ji lived his life ( in accordance with Gurbani)..when GURBANI not only DISCOURAGES..but condemns TAPPISUYA, Giving Pain and suffering to this Human body which is GOD’S HARMANDIR ( sacred palace), fasting, sitting in one place, NOT DOING any HONEST KIRT KAMAII ( and thus NOT having anything to WAND CHHAKNA), Gurbani advises.. ENCOURAGES very strongly the Life of a HOUSEHOLDER and CONDEMNS Bachelorhood/Brahmchariness as a way to GOD…Sanyiasees, yogis, tapasvees etc are NOT role models according to GURBANI. Our GURU SAHIBAANS are the TRUE Rolemodels for us….True BRAHMGIANIS….and NOT a SINGLE GURU JI did GHOR Tapissaiya in JUNGLES, far away from home, subsided on SEWAKs” OFFERINGS for sustenance ( Maang Khaanna), OUR Guru jis got Married had families. .sons and daughters, carried out their daughter’s marriages, participated in Society as we all do…AND most important of all WROTE GURBANI for our guidance.



    NONE of the SANTS…BABAS… ( no need to name any names, but you are welcome to name any that fit the GURU’s description of a Brahmgiani)..Followed the example of our GURU SAHIBAANS….they followed the Rasta of the sanyiasees, the yogis, the sidhs.. etc. NOT GURBANI…IMHO, it is the so called sants/babas.maharajs etc who have their own personal “AGENDAS”…deras, parchaar tours, chelas…Fan Clubs…and own “Maryadas” that divide Sikhs.





    Manukh kee sewa BIRTHEE JAAN – GURU ARJUN JI. ( show me a “Brahmgiani” who is NOT a MANUKH …and I will do “his” sewa…till then I will do as GURU JI tells me.)





    Love for ALL….lets do the Guru’s Work..





    Jarnail Singh
     
  14. Sher Singh

    Sher Singh
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    for me, i think there are brahamgiani's but not true ones. No, i dont htink that Sikhi will be all about Brahamgiani's and not Sikhs. I think that slowly, there will be a day when we as a Sikh nation will realize what's happening to us, what's become of us, and then we will awake from our slumber and awaite for the Guru's hand for help. Nowadays, we see sikhs cutting their hair, etc, not caring about Sikhism and its value. But rest assure, there will be a day where Guru Ji's Khalsa will rise. No brahamgiani, Brahman, or anyone will stop them.
     
  15. Lionchild

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    Thanks for bringing this up! I would like to add that if you are a person who does independent research into you path, an intermediary is irrelevant.

    We get so caught up in telling people what we do, that we ourselves do not know what is true. No group or person has the right or position to tell others what to do, nor how to be "sikh"
     
  16. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    In Malaysia, sehajdhari sikhs are getting more interested in bringing their children to participate in all sikh activities. The only difference being that they want to remain sehajdharis. They have also voiced complains that the Gianis and other preachers constantly degrade them with their speeches about 5K's and they are never allowed to become fore-front sewadaars, esp. like taking part in doing Kirtan. If Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan can do Kirtan with his group, then why not Sehajdharis ?

    YouTube - Koi Bole Ram Ram - Dr. U.K. Sahni
    YouTube - Koi Bole Ram Ram - Dr. U.K. Sahni Part 2

    I wonder if this is also the case in other countries.
     

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