And Islam was revealed in 7th century and then Arabs used to bury there girls alive. In SUCH times , Islam *explicitly* commands women to get education , gives them rights of inheritance/property , right to divorce (even on the basis of sexual dissatisfaction) and right to do independent business. Can you show me any such things from the bible?...Islam demands us to practice it in moderation.. I have read the bible..Also , if you don't know , the medieval European criticism of Islam aggressively criticizes Islam because "Islam gives women and slave too much liberty" ... You don't you see all this as "progressiveness" ?
My dear brother Auzer kaurhug
As-Salaam-Alaikum!
Friend, would you mind if I offered my perspective on the above? This is a Sikh forum and I have come here to learn more about Sikhism and to grow in love with my Sikh brothers and sisters. As a result I would rather not discuss my own religion all that much however since this is the interfaith section and its about Muslims and Christians, I would very much appreciate it if you would allow me to comment on your above words.
On the one hand I am happy that you have taken the time to read the Bible which some of our Islamic brothers and sisters do not read, since they regard it as a corrupted text. I greatly appreciate and admire such open-mindedness from your good self.
I also agree with you that the Qur'an courageously speaks out against the prevalent Arabian practice of infanticide of female babies. I actually know the Sura, which is a Meccan one called the Bee (I read it many years ago when I first studied the Qur'an in depth):
"When news is brought to one of them of the birth of a female child, his face darkens and he is filled with inward grief. With shame does he hide himself from his people because of the bad news he has had! Shall he retain her on contempt or bury her in the dust? Ah! what an evil they decide on?" (Quran 16:59).
This was certainly an Islamic improvement upon the previous state of affairs in pagan Arabia.
In all honesty, however, I do see errors with your representation of the Bible which I think borders slightly on the disrespectful side (I don't think there was any need to insult my religion - Christianity - in retaliation to someone criticizing Islam).
I find it very sad that you felt the need to resort to criticizing my religion in response to criticism of Islam
You write:
In SUCH times , Islam *explicitly* commands women to get education , gives them rights of inheritance/property , right to divorce (even on the basis of sexual dissatisfaction) and right to do independent business. Can you show me any such things from the bible?
I hope you don't mind me asking but could you provide us with references for the above statements my dear friend? I think it would be beneficial to this discussion.
The Bible teaches the equality of the sexes. This equality is reflected in the Galatian baptismal formula:
"...There does not exist among you Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female. All are one in Christ Jesus..."(Gal. 3:28).
This text was most probably an early hymn or prayer that every newly baptized Christian sang or prayed with great rejoicing.
Certainly the Bible upholds woman's right to education - and most enfatically. Jesus courageously broke the social mores of his time by teaching women on many occassions (the Judaism of the time relegated women largely to the home. This wasn't the fault of the OT, per se, but rather the Rabbinic and priestly understanding of the era).
In fact so much of an advocate of women was Jesus that at his trial one of the pieces of evidence used to support his execution was to do with his emancipation of women.
A variant reading of Luke 23:2, 5 from the church father Epiphanius reads:
"They began their accusation by saying, 'We found this man inciting
our people to a revolt, opposing payment of the tribute to Caesar,
leading astray the women and the children, and claiming to be Christ,
a king:...and he has turned our children and wives away from us for
they are not bathed as we are, nor do they purify themselves."
Some Jewish Rabbis firmly declared "Let the words of Torah rather be destroyed by fire than imparted to women". The male-dominated society of the time didn't generaly value women's lives and work. An example of this can be found in the work Special Laws by the Jewish philosopher Philo: "The women are best suited to the indoor life which never strays from the house …"
The terrible sexism which Jesus had to fight is highlighted by this passage:
"...Just then his disciples came. They were astonished that he was speaking with a woman, but no one said, "What do you want?" or, "Why are you speaking with her?..."
- (John 4:27)
Jesus' attitude could not have been more different. One of the best stories highighting this is Jesus' interaction with Mary and Martha. It is, as one interpreter says, "perhaps the strongest and clearest affirmation on the part of Jesus that the spiritual and intellectual life was just as proper for women as to men" (Swidler 1979:192). :
And here it is in the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible:
Now as they went on their way, he entered a certain village, where a woman named Martha welcomed him into her home. She had a sister named Mary, who sat at the Lord's feet and listened to what he was saying. But Martha was distracted by her many tasks; so she came to him and asked, "Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me to do all the work by myself? Tell her then to help me." But the Lord answered her, "Martha, Martha, you are worried and distracted by many things; there is need of only one thing. Mary has chosen the better part, which will not be taken away from her."
"Sat at the Lord's feet" (10:39) is a particularly significant phrase, because Jewish disciples or students sat at the feet of their chosen rabbis or teachers. The apostle Paul, for example, says that he was "
brought up. . . at the feet of Gamaliel" (Acts 22:3). In our Mary-Martha story, "
Luke is intimating that Mary is a disciple, and as such her behavior is to be emulated" (Witherington 1990:100). Disciples attached themselves and gave their allegiance to particular teachers and the movements they led, as did Jesus' followers, including Mary. To "sit at one's feet" then is a first century Rabbinic phrase indicating that one is receiving instruction in Torah; that is education from one's Rabbi.
"
The teaching of women by Jesus is particularly significant when we consider the customs of Judaism in his time. Women. . . were not permitted to study the Scriptures with a rabbi. . . .The story of Mary and Martha (Luke 10:38-42) clearly shows Jesus' willingness to consider women as worthy students. In this text, Mary takes the traditional male role of 'sitting at the feet' or studying with the rabbi. Jesus approves of her interest in intellectual and spiritual matters, for she is told that she has chosen the better part" (McHaffie 1986:15).
Property/inheritance:
Not an area the New Testament speaks on specifically, since its not a matter of faith and morals (but a secular matter for the state to determine not religion) however women are equal heirs in every respect:
"...You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way...since she is a woman; and show her honor as an equal heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered..."
- 1 Peter 3:7
Right to divorce
In Jesus' time, a man could divorce his wife, but the wife had no right to divorce her husband. There were no references to a woman giving her husband such a bill. In Mark 10:11-12, Jesus overthrows this tradition and states that neither spouse can divorce the other; he treats the wife and husband equally. In a similar passage in Mark 10:11–12, Jesus widens the scope of the teaching to show that such dissolution may apply to the behavior of either the man or the woman (even though in Jewish custom women could not divorce their husbands, Jesus includes women equally in his charge): "
Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her; and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery."
Right to do independent business
Jesus' ministry was funded by many women of independent means. One of these, his chief provider, was Mary Magdalene an unmarried, wealthy, self-made woman who possesed her own resources and freely lended her patronage to the Jesus Movement:
Luke 8:2, 3: "
and certain women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities—Mary called Magdalene, out of whom had come seven demons, <SUP>3</SUP> and Joanna the wife of Chuza, Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others who provided for Him from their substance."
Also , if you don't know , the medieval European criticism of Islam aggressively criticizes Islam because "Islam gives women and slave too much liberty" ... You don't you see all this as "progressiveness" ?
I honestly cannot see this as being the medeival European criticism of Islam given that Christianity had all but eradicated slavery from the Christian populations of Europe by the 1100s.
"Nature having made no slaves, all men have an equal right to liberty"
- Pope Alexander III, 1159
"Not only the Christian religion, but nature herself, cries out against slavery"
- Pope Leo X, 1513
James Bowden writes of Leo:
"...Pope Leo X declared against slavery at a very early stage of its existence, and he did so under somewhat extraordinary circumstances...Leo X was one of the most learned of the popes, and, doubtless was fully aware that, mainly by the voice of the Church, slavery had been extinguished in western Europe..."
"...
The maternal love of the Catholic Church embraces all people. As you know, venerable brother, the Church from the beginning sought to completely eliminate slavery, whose wretched yoke has oppressed many people. It is the industrious guardian of the teachings of its Founder [Jesus] who, by His words and those of the apostles, taught men the fraternal necessity which unites the whole world. From Him we recall that everybody has sprung from the same source, was redeemed by the same ransom, and is called to the same eternal happiness. He assumed the neglected cause of the slaves and showed Himself the strong champion of freedom. Insofar as time and circumstances allowed, He gradually and moderately accomplished His goal. Of course, pressing constantly with prudence and planning, He showed what He was striving for in the name of religion, justice, and humanity. In this way He put national prosperity and civilization in general into His debt. This zeal of the Church for liberating the slaves has not languished with the passage of time; on the contrary, the more it bore fruit, the more eagerly it glowed... St. Gregory the Great, Hadrian I, Alexander III, Innocent III, Gregory IX, Pius II, Leo X, Paul III, Urban VIII, Benedict XIV, Pius VII, and Gregory XVI stand out. They applied every effort to eliminate the institution of slavery wherever it existed. They also took care lest the seeds of slavery return to those places from which this evil institution had been cut away..."
- Pope Leo XIII, CATHOLICAE ECCLESIAE, 1890
A Protestant historian Rodney Stark has a great article on how the Catholic Church fought against the institution of slavery:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/julyweb-only/7-14-53.0.html
Also see this website:
http://www.cuf.org/news/newsdetail.asp?newID=81
Much love to you!
