Do All Religions Lead To God?

[spnadmin]

Kirpal Singh was initiatied by his guru Baba Sawan Singh, of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, into Surat Shabd Yoga which is also known as Sant Mat. Just so we are clear that these ideas arrise in the RadhaSoami tradition.

 

[spnadmin]

Narayanjot Ji,

Ruhanisatsang has some wonderful topics but as always, they misinterprete gurbani by giving importance to a living guru.
This is not the way of mainstream Sikhism.
So it is necessary to re-interprete those particular words which create a false image of a true guru.

How can Kirpal Singh be author of all the gurbani stated by him?
How can he be author of all the other scriptue references he has made?

Well namjap ji -- I guess I am in agreement with you. If there are all these viewpoints -- none have been examined to see just how consistent they are with each other -- then I am still left with my questions. Sorry if I sound like a broken record.

And obviously Kirpal Singh ji finds God as immanent in all forms. But does this message of oneness in life and living address the question Do all religions lead to God? Some have made the argument that religions lead us away from God. BTW what is meant by "God?" Doesn't the answer to that question determine how the thread question can be answered, and how it cannot be addressed? No one has asked What is meant by God? so far. What happens if there are 2 or 4 or 6 or 8 or more answers and they are just different enough to make the thread question unanswerable? What happens to the idea of Oneness if there are 2 or 4 or 6 or 8 or more answers to the question, What is meant by God? Which One (of the lot) is immanent in me? Just a thought. These are not easy discussions.

 

[Astroboy]

Same bodies, clothes change. Satyug rath sach ka, Sat aga rathvaho. Satyug was chariot of truth and lead by Sat. dvapur rath, treta rath, Kaliyug rath agni ka, koor ag rathvahos. In long run, true self is only who's foundation is in the truth. For truth lives on, self lives on in truth.

what did I miss?

Josh martin Ji,

You have a remarkable philosophy deep within you. Possibly molded by past life karma.

 

[Astroboy]

namjap ji

is this shabd in continuation of the earlier post you made?

“Music creates order out of chaos: for rhythm imposes unanimity upon the divergent,
melody imposes continuity upon the disjointed,
and harmony imposes compatibility upon the incongruous”

Yehudi Menuhin quotes

There is music and rythm and melody and harmony in every civilisation that ever existed.
“Love must be as much a light, as it is a flame.”

Henry David Thoreau

 

[BhagatSingh]

Rabbi David Wolpe: Cuz religion is a path to God.
Sam Harris: What are you calling God? Where is God?
Rabbi David Wolpe: God is...the intagible creator of the universe in whose presence a human being can live and in according to whose dictates or will a human being can live in this world.
... continued here:YouTube - Sam Harris makes a joke and a point

 

[spnadmin]

Bhagat ji

In your post above this statement by Rabbi Volpe Rabbi David Wolpe: God is...the intagible creator of the universe in whose presence a human being can live and in according to whose dictates or will a human being can live in this world.

Now I don't have any problem at all with that sentence as it stands. That is the same One that is Immanent in me too. The problem is that when the discussion of "God" continues it invariably goes on to include MORE. And MORE often has elements that I don't feel inside and definitely do NOT want to feel inside me. Of course depending on the path -- and Sikhism's Akaal Purakh never alarms me.

 

[Astroboy]

Abraham Lincoln: When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

what is good or bad?

 

[Sinister]

what is good or bad?

anything that increases complexity of a closed system is good

anything that decreases complexity of a closed system is bad

 

[spnadmin]

What is it when something increases the complexity of an open system?

 

[Sinister]

What is it when something increases the complexity of an open system?

it would be neither good nor bad

first off, the overall complexity of an open system cannot be measured. thus change in complexity cannot be measured. making the question itself invalid.

extrapolating...good or bad cannot be defined in an open system...good or bad would not exist in an open system.


Aside: some may argue that the sum of our interactions is a closed system...because we can communicate with only a finite amount of people....many may argue that the universe is a closed system. inconclusively.

 

[spnadmin]

Sinister ji

I like that reply. Going with the force -- open systems, their unmeasurable complexity, their inability to calibrate good and bad -- questions that are invalid because the variables cannot be demonstrated with statistical probability - all of that excites me. SPN is almost like that. :happy: Or on second thought, maybe not.

Maybe what you have just described is sehaj:meditation::meditation::meditation: You have to float!

 

[Satyaban]

Jeez closed system , open system, ajar systems, betting systems, whatever systems pshaw we can really make things complicated so we forget the question. What was the question, "What is good and what is bad?" The answer for me is incredibly simple, there is no good or bad there just is. Yup that's it.
Let me give you an example:
Bob is a printer and has a job at a fine company. John is also a printer in the same town with a family and has been out of work for nine months and hasn't been able to find another job in his trade. On a Tuesday Bob has a very bad car accident and will never be a printer again. On the following Thursday John not knowing of the accident applies for Bob's job and gets it.
Was Bob's accident good or bad or good and bad or a push.
We as humans can only see the tiniest glimpse of the picture so we want to jump to a conclusion based on how we think we are affected. When we step back and say it is God we see it differently. When we read of a huge earthquake while filled with compassion we must say it is Shiva or God or Allah or Jim if that is the name you choose to use. But it is God and there is no question to be asked. No good no bad it just is just divine.

Peace
Satyaban

 

[Tejwant Singh]

What is it when something increases the complexity of an open system?

Narayanjot ji,

Guru fateh.

Open system means to break the walls of complexity. It is like untangling the tangles of life, one at a time.

Tejwant Singh

 

[Sinister]

Jeez closed system , open system, ajar systems, betting systems, whatever systems pshaw we can really make things complicated so we forget the question. What was the question, "What is good and what is bad?" The answer for me is incredibly simple, there is no good or bad there just is. Yup that's it.
Let me give you an example:
Bob is a printer and has a job at a fine company. John is also a printer in the same town with a family and has been out of work for nine months and hasn't been able to find another job in his trade. On a Tuesday Bob has a very bad car accident and will never be a printer again. On the following Thursday John not knowing of the accident applies for Bob's job and gets it.
Was Bob's accident good or bad or good and bad or a push.
We as humans can only see the tiniest glimpse of the picture so we want to jump to a conclusion based on how we think we are affected. When we step back and say it is God we see it differently. When we read of a huge earthquake while filled with compassion we must say it is Shiva or God or Allah or Jim if that is the name you choose to use. But it is God and there is no question to be asked. No good no bad it just is just divine.

Peace
Satyaban

Oh Satyaban! if only life were that simple and everything could be explained with carefully constructed examples…it is not…and in some deep part of yourself all of you understand...that there is greater complexity involved and evolved within us.

Time for me to change your case study:

What about if John carefully planned to sabotage Bob so that the position would open? (maybe he disconnected the brakes to Bob’s car that caused the accident)

What chemical and neural logarithm do you use to calibrate the best decision you can make? Would it be the time to “step back and see and say it is god”? or do you pull that trigger and make fate your own? (bringing us back to the debate on free will)


Duality, a pervasive property of arithmetic structures, holds that two operations or concepts are interchangeable, all results holding in one formulation also holding in the other, the dual formulation. In psychology Emile Durkheim termed it the Homo Duplex.


“human duality consists of a ‘controlled -processing’ mode in which thought is conceptual and action intentional, and an ‘automatic-processing’ mode which is much older and operates largely outside of consciousness. In contrast to Durkheim’s model, this mode contains both homeostatic motivations and the foundations of human sociality and morality. Nevertheless, Durkheim’s larger point remains true: Religious belief is born of the conflict between these two parallel modes of processing, as individuals behave and perceive under the influence of social influences that are transparent to their conscious awareness, and are compelled to reconcile the two modes via the construction of the sacred. In short, religion is an expected and predictable by-product of human dualism.”
Abstract lifted from: Douglas A Marshall "Durkheimian Dualism Redux: Homo Duplex and the Origins of Religion"


We are topsy turvy and twisted animals. Always contradicting ourselves yet somehow we arrive at some sort peace which allows us to function and make predictable decisions while displaying predictable feelings… accepting at different times a closed and open system.

Closed when we need motivation

Open when we? When we need peace, consolation and spiritual rejuvenation?

Simple, not overcomplicated, and it makes sense.

 

[Astroboy]

The answer for me is incredibly simple, there is no good or bad there just is

Page 1018, Line 6
ਸੁਭਾਇ ਅਭਾਇ ਜੁ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਆਵੈ ਸੀਤੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਜਾਇ ॥
सुभाइ अभाइ जु निकटि आवै सीतु ता का जाइ ॥
Subẖā▫e abẖā▫e jo nikat āvai sīṯ ṯā kā jā▫e.
Good or bad, whoever comes close to the fire - his cold is taken away.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


Page 186, Line 6
ਬੁਰਾ ਭਲਾ ਕੋਈ ਨ ਕਹੀਜੈ ॥
बुरा भला कोई न कहीजै ॥
Burā bẖalā ko▫ī na kahījai.
Do not say that anyone is good or bad.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

 

[Josh martin]

Josh martin Ji,

You have a remarkable philosophy deep within you. Possibly molded by past life karma.

Satyug rath santokh ka (ofcourse you knew this already) is from Asa di var, Which I heard in sadh sangat. Philosophy is merely stuff I hear in katha and pass on. Interest in Gurbani maybe something from past life karma.

 

[Satyaban]

Sinister Ji even your amended version of my story could be extended to those effected but not a part of said conspiracy. It was still God John could have had a heart attack or any such thing but didn't. The bottom line is our determination of what is good or bad or good or evil is based on our position on this temporal ever changing plane of time and space under the illusion of maya. How could we possibly know. I don't have God consciousness do you if so I bow to you and kiss your feet.

Namjap ji:

Thank you for your post.

Peace
Satyaban

 

[Sinister]

Sinister Ji even your amended version of my story could be extended to those effected but not a part of said conspiracy. It was still God John could have had a heart attack or any such thing but didn't. The bottom line is our determination of what is good or bad or good or evil is based on our position on this temporal ever changing plane of time and space under the illusion of maya. How could we possibly know. I don't have God consciousness do you if so I bow to you and kiss your feet.

Namjap ji:

Thank you for your post.

Peace
Satyaban

The bottom line is our determination of what is good or bad or good or evil is based on our position on this temporal ever changing plane of time and space under the illusion of maya. How could we possibly know.

Perhaps; by how we and others around us truly feel 'after the fact', could be an indicator of what is good or bad? (like that Lincoln quote)

anyways ....I have made my points...and althoug we disagree slightly, i have the feeling that world views coalesce given enough time and effort.



i had no intention of hijacking the post and i intend to bring it back to its 'rightful' owner (aman ji)

what are your views (and the rest of the forum members views) on christian existentialism?

and then if we could kindly progress to answer aman ji's question:

do all religions lead to enlightenment? if so how can such distinct philosophical differences be reconciled? (if what i posted above is not universal enough)


side note: "do onto others as they would have do onto you"...the golden rule as spoken by Jesus. what significance if any does this play in a world without free will?

 

[Satyaban]

Sinister Ji:
Christian existentialism? I have read some some existentialists' books but I think they were either Jews or atheists. So I'll have to get back to you on that so I know a little of what I am talking about. I really have to be on my toes here. LOL
My favorite Lincoln quote goes like this "If I were two faced would I go around wearing this one"
Lincoln had a great wit and also loved to Indian wrestle.
Let me ask you this. When God kicks off a new universe, I like the Big Bang theory, do you believe it is known what will happen from beginning to end as I do. Therefore there can be no divine intervention because that would mean God made an error he had to correct which of course is impossible. We must remember that like pulling a thread on a great rug altering an event would change time and events for ever, of course there a theory that an alternative universe starts immediately, anyway if you believe this isn't free will an illusion and predestination driven by Karma the rule? I have asked this of Christian friends and most can't grasp the concept.
Anyway I will have to get back to you my friend.

Pray for peace
Satyaban