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Dissillusioned

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Azzie, Dec 23, 2005.

  1. Azzie

    Azzie
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    Hi, this is my first time here and i just want to let a few things out.

    I find that i've become very dissillusioned with Sikhism, mostly because of what i see in my personal life.

    Because of my life circumstances i've not been one of the Gurdwara croud and have very little ties to the religion itself. I can't read or write punjabi and i can speak very little of it. Maybe that could also be a factor contributing to my disillusionment.

    I find that people think that once they have the 5K's that they are really sikhs, but i find that the 5K's are just symbolisms there to remind one of one's path.

    My grandmother is learning bani and how to play the drums and going to the temple and praying, yet she won't eat anything that anyone brings to her house for fear of black magic, my mother, is listening to more religious songs and is keeping her hair uncut and wants to stop plucking her hair after she retires, yet she thinks chinese are dirty, white's don't takes baths, muslims are..etc and the list goes on. And i cannot marry a lower caste guy because she would probably disown me, not that i am in love with a lower caste guy or anything.

    The more religious they try to become the more hyprocritical they become to me. I don't know what's written in the Guru Grant Sahib but i feel that if one is afraid of black magic, then one does not have full trust and faith in god, if one judges people and brings caste into everything then whats the use of not cutting the hair and listening to more bani's.

    I am at the point now where i think the community is made up of mostly hyprocrites who hide behind their kara and turban. Arn't we supposed to be of no caste ?? arnt we supposed to believe only in god and not in rituals. If someone becomes sikh by appearance but not by character what's the use of being one??

    I could take amrit and grow my hair and do all those things that require me to show on the outside that i'm a good sikh but if i tell my children to marry someone from the same caste, what's the use of me doing all these external things if my thoughts and my character still has stains.

    I can't reconcile myself with this, it's not the guru's i have a problem with, not sikhism itself, it's the people who aspire to be good sihks by doing all thses external things but who never examine their souls and their chaacters in the process.

    I don't think god will forsake me if i cut my hair, neither do i think i will be a good sikh if i go to the gurdwara everyday. I'm confused and disheartened. I took off my kara yesterday because i don't like what i see happening with sikhism and all it's symbolisms which seem to be taking precidence over the real meaning of sikhism.

    My father once told me that the more religious people become, the more hypocritical they are, and from what i see, i agree with him.
     
  2. hps62

    hps62
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  3. Azzie

    Azzie
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    Actually it's more like sister.

    I understand what Sikhism means to you but i don't think that sikhism is that to everyone, or if it is, they are not bothered to follow it. I don't know what sikhism means to me yet, i only know that i have a belief in god and i feel that i don't have to sit down in a gurdwara just to be close to god. A lot of times i stray and i'm still trying to understand what my place is in this world and in god's plan. I'm just tired of the people in my life who want to drink Amrit, and become closer to god, but who yet still have all these close minded ideas about caste, religion, dowdry, life.

    If i put on my kara and follow the 5ks but i still feel that i am better than the untouchables does it still make me a good sikh??

    I'm just very confused with it all.
    Since i'm not very well versed with the gurus and the guru granth sahib, can someone just tell me this. Did the gurus ask us not to judge people on caste ??
     
  4. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    wjkk
    wjkf

    dear azzie ji welcome to the sikhphilosophy.net
    yes it is written in guru granth sahib not to be proud of your caste


    ???? ???? ???? ? ????? ??? ?
    raag bhairo mehlaa 3 cha-upday ghar 1
    Raag Bhairao, Third Mehl, Chaupadas, First House:


    ? ?????? ??????? ?
    ? ?????? ??????? ?
    ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad.
    One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:


    ???? ?? ???? ? ?????? ??? ?
    ???? ?? ???? ? ?????? ??? ?
    jaat kaa garab na karee-ahu ko-ee.
    No one should be proud of his social class and status.


    ?????? ????? ?? ???????? ??? ???
    ?????? ????? ?? ???????? ??? ???
    barahm binday so baraahman ho-ee. ||1||
    He alone is a Brahmin, who knows God. ||1||


    ???? ?? ???? ? ??? ???? ????? ?
    ???? ?? ???? ? ??? ???? ????? ?
    jaat kaa garab na kar moorakh gavaaraa.
    Do not be proud of your social class and status, you ignorant fool!
    ??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?
    is garab tay chaleh bahut vikaaraa. ||1|| rahaa-o.
    So much sin and corruption comes from this pride. ||1||Pause||


    ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?
    ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?
    chaaray varan aakhai sabh ko-ee.
    Everyone says that there are four castes, four social classes.


    ?????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???
    ?????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???
    barahm bind tay sabh opat ho-ee. ||2||
    They all emanate from the drop of God's Seed. ||2||


    ???? ?? ??? ?????? ?
    ???? ?? ??? ?????? ?
    maatee ayk sagal sansaaraa.
    The entire universe is made of the same clay.


    ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????????? ???
    ??? ???? ????? ??? ???????? ???
    baho biDh bhaaNday gharhai kumHaaraa. ||3||
    The Potter has shaped it into all sorts of vessels. ||3||


    ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?
    ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?
    panch tat mil dayhee kaa aakaaraa.
    The five elements join together, to make up the form of the human body.


    ??? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ???
    ??? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ???
    ghat vaDh ko karai beechaaraa. ||4||
    Who can say which is less, and which is more? ||4||


    ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?
    ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?
    kahat naanak ih jee-o karam banDh ho-ee.
    Says Nanak, this soul is bound by its actions.


    ???? ?????? ???? ????? ? ??? ?????
    ???? ?????? ???? ????? ? ??? ?????
    bin satgur bhaytay mukat na ho-ee. ||5||1||
    Without meeting the True Guru, it is not liberated. ||5||1||

    our ancestors converted from hinduism to sikhism but they were unable to leave casteism racism .is it upto us should we continue with it or change it
    for your queiries i advise you to read guru granth sahib online
    www.srigranth.org
     
  5. Azzie

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    So now i'm supposed to stand by and watch the females in my life become more pious and more hyprocritical in my eyes. great.

    I thought if i married a sikh man i would be able to learn how to be a good sikh from him, now that the meaning of a good sikh has changed for me, it looks like i'm going to be single forever.
     
  6. hps62

    hps62
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    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    Dear sister AZZIE

    SSAKAL

    I do not know your age.

    But I can assure you that as student in year 2006 one will go thru this phase of questioning.

    I have debated this talk with my friends over nights and day to find the meaning of GOD ,try to understand his plan and my place in this universe .

    These are the question of a inquistive mind.

    Let me assure you that the words of plan , understand ; belong to the logical world of science , what I call the "why world ".

    In the "faith world" you feel a different perspective. You are not here alone to ask a purpose for an individual . You are the whole universe all linked into one fabric the cosmos.

    Here the purpose of GOD is probably "To be" for the "luv of be ".

    It is the experience of grand unification of all the things of which Guru Grant Sahib talks of as " ONE GOD ".

    This is also being pursued by the " WHY World " people in the finest scientific theory man has ever concieved called " The M theory "

    Try reading a book " The Fabric of the Cosmos: Space, Time, and the Texture of Reality:
    Books by Brian Greene .


    It does talk of the unification of all the forces of nature including the living force of who human being is one of the example much the way our GURUS taught us as a philosophy


    regards

    SSAKAL
    NNCKTBSKB

    :) hps62:)
     
  7. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    azzie ji our elders were unable to understand guru granth sahib .withthe help of internet we can read and under stand guru granth sahib.you should encourage females in your family to read guru granth sahib.and a sikh should learn sikhi only from guru granth sahib not from anyone else.
     
  8. Arvind

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    Azzie ji,

    Thanks for your post. I believe this resonates the feelings of many young sikhs or non-sikhs.

    Any one who follows teachings by Guru Granth Sahib and Rehat Maryada has nothing to do with Caste, Superstitions etc.

    Otherwise, they havent understood the essence hence hypocritical.

    Best thing is to set our own standard for ourselves, instead of looking at others and saying - see, they are like that, so i wont do it.

    Hope this helps.

    Regards, Arvind.
     
  9. Azzie

    Azzie
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    I think that knowing not all sikhs are like that does help, and yes, i shouldn't give up on my religion because of others who don't recognise it's true meaning.
     
  10. Prabhjyotsaini

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    Dear Azzie,
    Casteism, superstitions etc. are nothing to do with Sikhism. Also its not fair rather justifiable to be Sikh in ones outlook & still having negetive ideas about the world which directly indicates that one is not having faith in ones Guru & God. At the same time I suggest you to go through the various translations of Shri Guru Granth Sahib available online so as to get to know the richness of our religion & the essence of all the teachings then decide whether you get to know about the religion or not. Since different people have different hypocritical views suitable to ones own ego. After reading the various aspects of Guru Granth Sahib get to know it yourself what is Sikhism in actual & what is it for you in person. It is a beautiful religion which has given so much for the upliftment for the mankind & women in special. I mean women has been given highest place here.
    I hope various such modules will be able to take you out of your disillusionment, since a person himself/herself is responsible for ones knowledge, enlightenment & ultimately salvation. If you still want some help in this regard you are most welcome again with your questions, we will try to ponder through those & find you answers.
     
  11. hps62

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    dear Sister

    SSAKAL

    Role of individuals in community keeps on changing with time.

    You got to be soldiers some times in war which our forefathers and now also is being done in unparalled manner.

    You may have to do farming at times which is done till today in the best manner.

    As to the future goals we must seek for our comunity is discussed by me on this site under "Modern Sikh Soldiers of the Globe - New "Enemies", "battle fields" & "Weapons"


    I hope it will reply some of your quieres

    with regards

    WGKWGF

    brother
    hps62:)
     
  12. Hari Atma

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    Dear Azzie,:)
    This is my first time here too, besides yesterday saying that the puppy suicide game on this site was not Khalsa! The true Sikh path is very hard to do. The rehit given by Guru Gobind Singh was to make us accountable, to ourselvesTo stand out like a ray of hope for others, but first for ourselves.All of this worldly life is a challenge otherwise we'd be dead. My experience is we are all human and as such have faults, no matter who we are. The caste system was ruled out by Guru Nanak, yet even today you see women, different races,etc being treated inferiorly worldwide.Here is something to ponder that came from our beloveed SGGS p.1807 "If thou man has no faith in the mind, embracest not love for the Lord, and enjoyest not the Name's relish, what praise of the Master shalt thou sing through forcing thy mind. Nanak his advent is approved , who by Guru's instruction merges into the true Lord..." For me it was heartwarming to read this quote. It also agrees with what you are saying.
    Hari Atma Kaur
     
  13. kharkoo4life

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    Dear Azzie,

    I completely understand and can sympathize with your present state of disillusionment and skeptisicm towards the Sikh faith. I too was once at a similar crossroads in my life but through the grace of the loving Lord i was shown the true essence of Sikhi. I shall try to share my own experience and understanding with regards to your present dillema.

    Sikhi is not merely recitation of bani nor is it merely wearing of the 5 k's. Sikhi is a complete way of thinking, a new mindframe which once adopted should guide you in every aspect of your life. The problem with the current practice of Sikhi is as you also hinted towards in ur post, that we have turned the practice of Sikhi from a complete lifestyle into a part-time liesurely activity. ANd like most liesurely activities, the focus is more on the outward physical self rather than the true inner self.

    I realize and agree it is very disheartening to see the majority of sikhs wake up in the morning recite jap ji sahib, yet as soon as they walk out their doors they completely forget the message of jap ji and actively engage in activities which are strongly condemned by the bani.

    The problem with Sikhi is not the philosphy of SIkhi but rather that we as followers of Sikhi have failed to understand the true meaning of this philosophy. Yes we recite the bani, but how many actually understand and follow the message of the bani? Instead of understanding its true meaning and how it relates to our inner soul, or spirituality, we have made sikhi merely contigent on our physical self.

    As a simple example i will share the first pauree of Jap Ji sahib. It is filled with the essence of the entire bani, and it would not be an understatement to say the essence of all guru granth sahib. It gives a succint summary of all the methods man employs to 'show' his spirituality to others, and to achieve the mision of human life -- oneness with God. If we read this pauri and relate it to todays Sikhi we will quickly realize what is wrong with how most of us practice Sikhi.

    The first line tells us mere physical efforts are meaningless if one wants to attain realization with God. IT gives the example of bathing oneself repeatedly as a means of becoming "pure" and says that such thinking is baseless. Yet today how many sikhs refuse to eat with other people, even other sikhs, because they have not taken amrit? OR that they do not use "special" cooking utensils in making that food? Was such thinking not condemned by Guru Nanak?

    The second line tells us that by remaining quite, or in a meditative trance will not help us become one with God. Yet how many parents yell at their kids to shut up n be quiet as they are doing their 'simran', even if all the kid wants is somethign to eat, or needs some important advice about some matter? Do we feel that sittin in a quiet "meditative" cross legged posture for one hour is a more meaningful display of our sikhi than sitting amongst our children, spouses and actively engagin in purposeful communication and discussion of problems, questions, dillemas and helping to solve them?

    The third line tells us that fullfilling our minds desires in order to achieve the perment bliss of contentment (i.e. oneness with GOd) is also futile. The Guru tells us that mans desires will never end so trying to fulfill these as a means to achieve peace of mind is pointless. Yet how many parents work two jobs, with repeated overtime all in an effort to buy a nicer car, a bigger home, or fulfill the wants of their kids (e.g. clothes, toys etc.)? The whole push behind most parents in raising their kids is to get them to attain as high an education as possible so they can get "good" jobs (lawyers, doctors, engineers) and make "good" money and live a "comfortable" life. How many of these parents stress the goodness of serving others, of doing good deeds, of speaking kind words? HOw many parents teach their kids that true comfort is not from acquiring material goods but from living a honest life and loving all of GOds creation as equal?

    FInally, the fourth line gives the example that trying to attain God thru lengthy studies of scriptures alone, or acquiring as much intelligence and knowledge is also on its own futile. God is not obtained thru how much knowledge u have but rather by the kind of lifestyle u live. Yet how many granthis are out there who daily give lectures and sermons at the gurdwara and show off how much gurbani they have memorized yet when they go home treat their wifes as nothing more than child bearing maids and cooks? HOw many kathavachiks (lecturers) on gurdwara stages, radios and tv's give sermons bout the beauty and magnificence of the gurus teachings yet fail to follow it themeselves?

    The whole point of this is to try and show that the reason so many young people (including myself a short time ago) have become skeptical and questioning of the Sikh faith is that for the most part the practice of SIkh faith is filled with hypocricy. As sad and troubling as this is, there is nothing either you, me or anyone else can do overnight to change this. How people choose to practice Sikhi is upto the individual.

    However, with regards to our own life, if we feel any love or interest towards the message the Gurus tried to share with us then the final outcome of wether we will be succesfull and find anything meaningful from adopting a Sikhi lifestyle lays squarely on our own shoulders alone. It is upto each of us as individiuals to go out, learn about the true meaning of Sikhi, to read about the illustrious sikh history, to go out and read as much gurbani as possible and try to relate it to our own lives. I can guarantee you, that if you do this with a open honest heart, then u will undoubtedly become more inspired with each passing day to follow Sikhi.

    Again i sympathize with u completely, that its hard to digest what the practice of Sikhi has become today. And its impossible to change the effects its had on us overnight. What it will take from you is a inner desire to search for the truth complimented by a dedication to keep making efforts every day, regardless how small they may be, to increase your own understanding of SIkhi and how it should truly be practiced. Only then will u feel the value and importance of Sikhi in ur life.

    I apologize for the rather lengthy post, but having gone thru a similar stage in my own life, i just wanted you to know that do not give up so easily, keep faith in God and by His Loving Grace He shall guide u on the path to true inner happiness and bliss.

    As a last note, i realize there is added pressure and difficulty being a women in todays world particularly the Indian community, but we are fortunate to have been blessed by a faith which speaks so highly and lovingly of women. Hopefuly the following words from Guru Nanak will serve as an inspiration for you to find your way thru this clouded world of ours.


    Come, my dear sisters and spiritual companions; hug me close in your embrace.
    Let's join together, and tell stories of our All-powerful Husband Lord.
    All Virtues are in our True Lord and Master; we are utterly without virtue.
    O Creator Lord, all are in Your Power.
    I dwell upon the One Word of the Shabad. You are mine-what else do I need?


    Rab Rakha

    "The Lord God is my Friend and Companion. God shall be my Helper and Support in the end. "
     
  14. Prabhjyotsaini

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    Very nice post & everything very nicely & elaboratedly explained. I am highly impressed, since being a Sikh from birth I have read the meanings of japji Sahib many times but I think this was the betterone to explain Thanks for all the effort. But I want to ask you one thing, could you tell me from where you extracted those lines of Guru Nanak which you have referred at the end. Actually from translated version I could not recall those. Hope to hear from you soon since I want to read all those again.
    Regards,
     
  15. kharkoo4life

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    It is translated from the following shabad of SGGS (page 17):

    Awvhu BYxy gil imlh AMik shylVIAwh ]
    Come, my dear sisters and spiritual companions; hug me close in your embrace.

    imil kY krh khwxIAw sMmRQ kMq kIAwh ]
    Let's join together, and tell stories of our All-powerful Husband Lord.

    swcy swihb siB gux Aaugx siB Aswh ]1]
    All Virtues are in our True Lord and Master; we are utterly without virtue.

    krqw sBu ko qyrY joir ]
    O Creator Lord, all are in Your Power.

    eyku sbdu bIcwrIAY jw qU qw ikAw hoir ]1] rhwau ]
    I dwell upon the One Word of the Shabad. You are mine-what else do I need?

    jwie puChu sohwgxI qusI rwivAw iknI guxNØI ]
    Go, and ask the happy soul-brides, ""By what virtuous qualities do you enjoy your Husband Lord?""

    shij sMqoiK sIgwrIAw imTw bolxI ]
    "We are adorned with intuitive ease, contentment and sweet words.

    ipru rIswlU qw imlY jw gur kw sbdu suxI ]2]
    We meet with our Beloved, the Source of Joy, when we listen to the Word of the Guru's Shabad."

    Gurbani is filled with such emotionaly wrenching, inspiring words which leave any reader filled with nothing but love for God and all His Creation. There is only the need for us to take the time each day and simply spend a few moments reading the wonderful message the Guru has blessed us with.
     
  16. Prabhjyotsaini

    Prabhjyotsaini
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    Thank you for the quick response. I more thing could you tell me which source you refer for translations & references since I came to Canada, I could not get enough meterial to read about Sikhism.
    Regards,
     

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