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Discussions about Projectnaad

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Astroboy, Sep 3, 2008.

  1. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    Members of the Sikh community are invited to discuss this website if it actually supports Gurmat or not. After reading a few articles which say otherwise, I want the opinion of other viewers to give their opinion on whether Panthic Weekly is making a mountain out of a mole-hill.
     
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  3. spnadmin

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    NamJap

    ProjectNaad -- is not set up as an organization that is theologically focused. As I understand it Project Naad is disseminating information to Sikhs and non-Sikhs that who might otherwise not have access to information about Sikhism at a fundamental level.

    So whether their publications consistent with Gurmat or not is kind of irrelevant. Their puiblications have only slight connection to the "Truth of the Guru." What matters is whether they are publishing information that is factual. Truth is a term with a meaning that varies according to context.

    The Panthic Weekly represents an extremely conservative side of Sikhism and some of its views can also be assailed using the same arguments now being lodged against Project Naad.

    The Sikh religion does not have a clergy or a hierarchy of individuals who give the stamp of approval based on divine inspiration. There is SGPC of course, which is a committee of ordinary folk who work through a consensus process to determine what practices are consistent with Sikh belief and values. And there are various jathedars. However, these are political appointments not part of a line of succession from the Gurus. So the burden lies on Panthic Weekly, in my humble opinion, to demonstrate that it has the high ground.

    Hope ProjectNaad stays cool. This has happened to other organizations.
     
  4. spnadmin

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    Sorry, but allow me to add.

    This is a perfect example of the kind of confusion that is raised up. From the Panthic Weekly article.

    The article quotes and interprets as follows. Gurbani says:

    ਪਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਪੇਖੈ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ॥
    “The eyes should not gaze upon the beauty of another women.”
    (Ang 274)


    The Panthic Weekly interprets the verse to mean:

    Friendship with the opposite sex is not prohibited. However, to go beyond the lines of innocent friendship would be contrary to Gurmat.

    This is not a prohibition against dating. It is a prohibition against lustful thoughts. If you follow the Panthic Weekly line of argument to its ultimate conclusion the only acceptable way to meet a spouse would be an arranged marriage in which both partners do not see each other until the day of the wedding. This does go on, but it is a cultural pattern and has nothing to do with Gurmat. Men and women would be living segregated lives like the ancient Spartans. Blindfolds would be a hot stock. Parents would advertise how unattractive their daughters were in the Matrimonials to get a jump start on the betrothal. Come on!!!!!!

    Another quote from the article in Panthic Weekly:

    ਦੇਖਿ ਪਰਾਈਆਂ ਚੰਗੀਆਂ ਮਾਵਾਂ ਭੈਣਾਂ ਧੀਆਂ ਜਾਣੈ ॥
    "Men should look at the opposite gender as mothers, sisters and daughters, (women should look at the opposite gender as fathers, brothers and sons)."
    (Bhâî Gurdâs: Vâr 29/ Paurî 11)


    Here is what Panthic Weekly says this vaar means.

    There is no if or but about dating or seeing the opposite gender in any other light other than one’s own sister or brother. Intimate relationships at any level are harmful – whether it is physical intimacy or emotional one.

    However, a deeper look at the life, history and work of Bhai Gurdas leads one to an entirely different conclusion. Sikhism, in big part because of Bhai Gurdas, is probably one of the few nonsexist faiths. The line is saying something else. It is reinforcing the intrinsic value of women as people and raising them above the status of cattle, property and sex objects that was the rule of the day. And sadly continues in some places even today.

    So my vote is to read Panthic Weekly with a block of salt. :) The writers are human just like you and me. They do not have a lock on Gurmat and often their writing is heavily motivated by political strategy.
     
  5. Admin Singh

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    Looking forward to exposure of SPN by PW soon. :happy: Free publicity!! Just kidding. :D
     
  6. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Aman Ji......a caution..if i may...dont wish wantonly...it may just come true....:happy:
    I have heard many comments like..SPN....full of....Neo-this and Neo that...on other Forums.....it pays to remain below the radar....because then we can carry on doing the Guru's Work..rather than fencing/playacting...with the likes of PW "investigative" journalists...:whisling:

    2. Just because a lable says..Panthic..Panth Rattan..Gurmat..Gursikh..Sant-Sipahi..etc etc is no guarantee of proper credentials....there are just too many "panthic" and sants sipahis and Panth Rattans...all self created and promoted...:ice: I FI..You FI..and we all Wifi..or as my son says..I scream..You scream..we all scream..for ICE CREAM.:ice:

    SPN is doing really well....well -balanced...well-planned...well-spreadout...well-adminsitred......about the only thing i am not happy about is..its NOT...well-FUNDED !!
    Maybe you should think about setting up a Cyber Gurdwara..complete with Cyber Goluck !!!...goodbye to funding problems...:thumbup:

    Gyani Jarnail Singh
     
  7. pk70

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    So my vote is to read Panthic Weekly with a block of salt. :) The writers are human just like you and me. They do not have a lock on Gurmat and often their writing is heavily motivated by political strategy.

    Absolutely true, Gurbani is being used for different kinds of agenda people have by distorting it.
    All organizations using wonderful words do not attract my attention any more. When my way of life and thinking was hit by the truth expressed in Gurbani, I felt ashamed that being born into Sikh family, how miles away from Gurmat I lived. Then I visited India as a follower of Gurbani. Amridhari people attracted me; I thought, these people have been faithful to Sikhi and I felt very inferior to them. Slowly and slowly that illusion was shattered and reality shined like a star. I saw them in high gravity of anger, I saw them cheating and I saw them lying through teeth. Suddenly I realised, hypocrisy has many facets. Now all what is said in namjap ji's post, sounds very familiar to me and there is no surprise. As ek musfir ajnabi wrote some place, people make small niches and love to live only in those niches, Gurbani, instead of becoming an inspiration, becomes their tool to defend themselves. Just be aware of their arid idiology.
     
  8. lionprinceuk

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    So by dating do you mean a gf-bf relationship/partnership?

    IF so, I have to disagree with you, I have gotten to know many people without ever having to do dating with them.

    I see dating as being liberal, and there are better and more respectable ways to get to know anyone including the opposite gender. I only see dating as an excuse by people either living in a liberal environment or coming from a liberal background. I do not see how I need to do "dating" to get to know girls, when we are perfectably capable to get to know them without it ?!?
     
  9. spnadmin

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    Veer ji,

    I was not discussing dating - pro or con. I was discussing misinterpretations of Gurbani -- reading things into the shabad that are not there.
     
  10. lionprinceuk

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    Bhaji,

    I was mainly arguing against this: "This does go on, but it is a cultural pattern and has nothing to do with Gurmat. Men and women would be living segregated lives like the ancient Spartans. Blindfolds would be a hot stock. Parents would advertise how unattractive their daughters were in the Matrimonials to get a jump start on the betrothal. Come on!!!!!! "

    But now I see you were explaining this lol :
    "If you follow the Panthic Weekly line of argument to its ultimate conclusion the only acceptable way to meet a spouse would be an arranged marriage in which both partners do not see each other until the day of the wedding."

    So nevermind

    Interestingly, the translation on another site,
    Sri Granth: Sri Guru Granth Sahib
    is given by:

    ਪਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਰੂਪੁ ਪੇਖੈ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ
    पर त्रिअ रूपु न पेखै नेत्र ॥
    Par ṯari▫a rūp na pekẖai neṯar.
    whose eyes do not gaze upon the beauty of others' wives,

    My multilingual skills do not realy surpass punjabi, but I am getting a rough idea of the meaning.
    I know in punjabi terms for men such as admi can also be used for husband. So could this shabad be talking about a wife in the same context for a woman?
    And what does ਪਰ mean in this shabad, does it mean but/however or it has some other meaning?

     
    #9 lionprinceuk, Sep 17, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  11. spnadmin

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    ਪਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਰੂਪੁ ਪੇਖੈ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ
    पर त्रिअ रूपु न पेखै नेत्र ॥
    Par ṯari▫a rūp na pekẖai neṯar.
    whose eyes do not gaze upon the beauty of others' wives,

    Yes Lion_Prince ji,

    The problem for me is this. The shabad is cautioning against looking at, focusing on, paying attention to the wrong things about other people. "Gaze" means more than to notice a person's beauty. "Gaze" means to look for a period of time. Gaze upon the beauty.... So, why steady your attention on physical beauty instead of other qualities of a person, the shabad asks?

    In dating one can either stay focused on physical beauty, or a person can focus on other qualities like spirituality. If one never dates, but meets people in other ways, one may still stay focused on physical beauty instead of other qualities like spirituality. So why ban dating? That is the part of the Panthic Weekly argument that is preposterous to me. It teaches puts emphasize on something like dating that in the end doesn't really make a difference. What makes a difference? Getting one's priorities straight. ;)
     
    #10 spnadmin, Sep 17, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  12. lionprinceuk

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    The thing is now, even for dating, it does normally involve looking at the person. I don't think people would take a step such as dating if the attraction wasn't strong.

    Also there is quite a deal of attachment involved in dating, and the broken hearts of others throught my short life experience has kept me away. I mostly disagree with the being bg-gf part, as I see this as being partners just like husband and wife. And I absolutely disagree with people being others exes, I see this very similarly to being divorced and makes it seem that the persons who partook of dating did believe themselves as being partners.

    I am fine with meeting, I am fine with talking, but dating and the context it is normally used, doesn't agree with me. To be honest, when I was a young teenager, I thought dating was aboout people sleeping with someone, probably due to seeing most of dating from soap operas on television, but then this is also where many asians seem to have picked up this habit in the uk, and now it has only increased here, since originally many indian families were conservative.

    I also do think that some cultures that follow sikhi are more tolerant with dating that others, so banning it would be enforcing ones culture onto others, such as the conservative jatt culture of the SGPC which would probably be against dating. Also I do think the Guru jis' kshatriya cultural background would be against dating. However I do not see sikhi as destroying mulitculturalism, and diferent cultures should be tolerated. But this is my view. :)

    I have heard views from/about some sanatan sikhs that they are ok for dating, including it seems projectnaad, as I talked to the singh and he said he was sanatan, although he had earlier extremist views that didn't seem sanatan, but he has changed views now lol
    But on the other hand, I know some sanatan sikhs, one is a khatri that is udasi, and the other his friend a jatt that is towards nihang and udasi tradition where both seem against it. I do not see as sikhi saying you should or shouldn't do dating, but more of the individuals cultural background. However, we should beware of things like lust and attachment. I have seen the attachment of dating hurting many people.

    My background is wary of dating as we are quite hardcore traditional annakhi background that sees woman as izzat of family and find it utmost important to protect the women lol In UK, stuff like conversions has caused much paranoia amongst dating, and is very much more associated with the pub/club type culture and hedonism. But there are some very honourable people that seem to be in a dating type of relationship that do marry, or it seems almost certain that they will marry. Its only bad when some guys were only out for pre-marital fun, and the girl is given a "tokha" like a false promise of marriage.
     
  13. spnadmin

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    Lion_Prince_Jatinder ji

    This is turning into a cordial and very interesting exchange for me. I hope for you too.

    You said, Also there is quite a deal of attachment involved in dating, and the broken hearts of others throught my short life experience has kept me away. I mostly disagree with the being bg-gf part, as I see this as being partners just like husband and wife.

    So is the problem really "dating" or is it really about how hard it is to learn to overcome attachments of any kind?

    A thought -- if we avoid situations where we may form attachment, and then be deeply hurt, then how do we ever learn what attachment is, how it feels, or most importantly, how to become better at "letting go" at learning how to "detach?"

    Just my thoughts ;)
     
  14. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    These people have the same "problem" with.....words like..Darshan !!
    To them DARSHAN..means GAZE upon..see...look at...blah blah blah.
    SO wehn the Bard Tall declares..So kaho Tall GUR seveah... ahnes sehaj sbahi...DARSHAN parseeah Guru ke janam maran dukh jai...
    IS Tall talking about "GAZING"..looking AT the Guru ?? Seeing the Guru..??? Can merely GAZING at the GURU..do all that..janam maran dukh jaiyeh ??
    SO DIDNT..Jehangir GAZE at Guru Arjun Ji..didnt Prithi Chand Gaze..didnt Chandu GAZE ?? Imho Chandu Really GAZED long and steadily at Guru Arjun Ji...enjoying the sight of Guru Ji Roasting on the Hot Plate...did all his Janm marans disappear
    More IMPORTANTLY... Tall and his GURBANI would become TIME BOUND...as TALL only could GAZE at Guru Angad/Arjun JI.... we who read his gurbani TODAY cannot GAZE upon Guru Angad Ji or Guru Arjun JI.... so is Talls DARSHAN valid TODAY ??
    OBVIOUSLY..to take Darshan to mean mere GAZING/looking etc is FAULTY LOGIC.
    People infatuated with such faulty logic are the ones who Take OFF the Rumalls of SGGS..to take a "peek"....that is "Darshan" of the Guru for them !!!! Ha ha..such people come to Gurdwara to "GAZE" upon the SGGS...what does such GAZING ACHIEVE ?? NOTHING. period.

    Gyani JS:happy:
     
  15. pk70

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    ਡਿਠੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜਿਚਰੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਨ ਕਰੇ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥(SGGS594)
    Diṯẖai mukaṯ na hova▫ī jicẖar sabaḏ na kare vīcẖār.
    One is not liberated by merely seeing Him(Guru), unless one contemplates the Word of His Shabad.
    ਮਃ 3
     
    #14 pk70, Sep 17, 2008
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