Dilemma For Westerners?

[Tejwant Singh]

Huck_ Finn ji,

Thanks for the response.

You write:

not all make up is for flaws.I work as an artist, i make up to play roles, characters...it is a part of my task.

Make up means to make up for something that is missing. You make up as an artist to play a certain role because your actual face is not able to do that. So, in other words you hide your true self which is flawed for the role you want to play.

make up is also the exterior we assume to be one among the many. many here is subjective. I would be motivated by an internal desire to be a part of even small many. e.g the gothic culture.

Gothic culture requires one to dress, and make up so one can fit in, for example using black clothes, black nail polish and make up etc. One can not use blue or pink to look like a Gothic. There is nothing wrong with that in my opinion. I have 4 boys who owrk for me and belong to the Gothic culture with chains and boots in the hot summer of the desert. But this is nothing to do with our interaction.

fit in

we fitting in goes both ways.

What made you fit in the Gothic culture? or What attracted you to it and what kind of acceptance you are looking for by dressing up as a Gothic?

What do your parents think of it? I have no idea how old you are but is it a kind of rebellion against their value system without understanding why they have those values?

Forgive me if I am assuming too much.

all institutions are based on assumptions that a limited number is true and there is more false than truth.

So being a part of institution is the process of fitting in.

Do you consider the institution you are part of a false one? If yes, then in what way? If it is a false one then why this desire to fit in a false institution?

Why be a part of institution?

i have no answer to that

Well, if one knows it is a false institution then one must have the answer or the reason why one wants to be a part of something false, fake and sometime make believe hence not true.

This seems to contradict your statement in the other thread in which you said:true path and the markers are constant.

my way of dialog is wee bit odd, hope you are comfortable with this.

This is your own presumption, not mine.

Tejwant Singh

 

[spnadmin]

Huck Finn ji

I do hope you will answer Tejwant ji's quesitons with more specificity. You ask "Why be part of an institution? That is a fair question in another context.
If the discussion were "Why Choose Religion?" or why be a member of any organized religion, then I think your question invites a reasonable response. Of course I am assuming that religion is a formal institution in making my remarks.

Are you saying that being part of an institution is a waste of time and energy? How are you defining "institution?"

But should anyone have to justify the decision to convert or continue to be an adherent of any formal religion? Why should someone have to do that just because someone else feels that being part of an institution is a waste of time? I don't know if you do see formal religion in that way.

Beyond that observation --- the thread is about the dilemmas faced by westerners who are considering converting to Sikhism. How does asking "Why be part of an institution?" address the original concern.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

tejwant ji

there is a saying in punjabi

baal di khall udherni and you have made quite a tangle out of it.



let's go one qn at a time again

<<Make up means to make up for something that is missing. You make up as an artist to play a certain role because your actual face is not able to do that. So, in other words you hide your true self which is flawed for the role you want to play.>>

no

make up is to display what "others" want to see. This has nothing do do with flaws or beauty or whatever you might be presuming.

<<Gothic culture requires one to dress, and make up so one can fit in, for example using black clothes, black nail polish and make up etc. One can not use blue or pink to look like a Gothic. There is nothing wrong with that in my opinion. I have 4 boys who owrk for me and belong to the Gothic culture with chains and boots in the hot summer of the desert. But this is nothing to do with our interaction.>>

i am not sure that why this is not relevant to discussion?

why do anyone trying to be gothic needs to have black nails etc...??

try extending that to our discussion.

<<What made you fit in the Gothic culture? or What attracted you to it and what kind of acceptance you are looking for by dressing up as a Gothic?

What do your parents think of it? I have no idea how old you are but is it a kind of rebellion against their value system without understanding why they have those values?

Forgive me if I am assuming too much.>>

yes sir, you assumed quite a bit

I am nowhere near to Gothic culture, in act its the antithesis of what my opinion is.

and why does following own path gets labeled as rebellion?

<<Do you consider the institution you are part of a false one? If yes, then in what way? If it is a false one then why this desire to fit in a false institution?>>

all institutions that propose to be the bridge between Akal and me are false for me.

but there are other institutions that i cherish -my country, my professional associations. They help me achieve my worldly objectives.

<<Well, if one knows it is a false institution then one must have the answer or the reason why one wants to be a part of something false, fake and sometime make believe hence not true.

This seems to contradict your statement in the other thread in which you said:true path and the markers are constant.>>>
:rofl!!:

well, you would have understood by now what i meant by Baal di khall udherni.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

<<But should anyone have to justify the decision to convert or continue to be an adherent of any formal religion? Why should someone have to do that just because someone else feels that being part of an institution is a waste of time? I don't know if you do see formal religion in that way.>>

ji

i absolutely agree that by denouncing religion, i am actually building another institution

and i agree, everyone makes personal choices.

I amply made it clear that am not make a stand of superiority. Just my opinions.

<<Beyond that observation --- the thread is about the dilemmas faced by westerners who are considering converting to Sikhism. How does asking "Why be part of an institution?">>

it absolutely is

the convert needs to ask himself/herself

whether they are going to follow Sikhi or be a part of the institution that Sikhism is ?

well, even those born in families who live in the institution need to introspect.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

<<How are you defining "institution?">>

i could write an essay

later for sure :yes:

 

[spnadmin]

OK then Huck Finn ji -- I would like to return to the thread's basic themes. The thread explores dilemmas encountered by "westerners" in particular one who was considering becoming adherents of Sikhism.

Aus Desi ji, With your indulgence -- You have made three very interesting observations about change. I want to turn them into questions that may continue discussion about dilemmas faced by "westerners."

I think I agree with the view that its all in your mind. If you really have the will to achieve success then your religious beliefs should not matter.

Could adherence to religious beliefs provide even greater resolve and lead to greater success -- even if there were obstacles and mishaps along the way.

One of the ways you can tell its in the mind is when people from India move over to the states. Even if they don't have a turban they still feel something is holding them back. Some change their names. Some change their religions to fit in.

What is holding them back?

The problem is that they might have had a physical journey but they haven't had a inner journey.

What needs to happen in that inner journey?

They feel that a turban or a name or a religion is just an accessory that is attached with them. Anyone who realises that these things make them who they are will never change them.

Do the inner changes and the outward signs ever work in unison?

Questions for anyone who is interested to consider.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Huck_Finn ji,

Guru Fateh.

You seem offended and become a bit edgy it seems when the questions are asked based on your own statements so one can understand what you are trying to say.

Let us go through them one by one, if you do not mind the indulgence.

there is a saying in punjabi

baal di khall udherni and you have made quite a tangle out of it.

Again that is your own presumption. It shows you are irritated when asked about what you said. I thought you wanted to be taken seriously.

My quote:
<<Make up means to make up for something that is missing. You make up as an artist to play a certain role because your actual face is not able to do that. So, in other words you hide your true self which is flawed for the role you want to play.>>

Your response:

no

make up is to display what "others" want to see. This has nothing do do with flaws or beauty or whatever you might be presuming.

How do you know what others want to see that? What makes you so sure or {censored}y about other people's desires and needs? Secondly, please read again what I said. I will repeat it here. You claim that you use make up to role play another character that you are not, which naturally means that your own face is flawed to play that role, hence you are forced to use make up.

My quote:
<<What made you fit in the Gothic culture? or What attracted you to it and what kind of acceptance you are looking for by dressing up as a Gothic?>>

Your response:

I am nowhere near to Gothic culture, in act its the antithesis of what my opinion is.

Well, this is what you said which seems to contradict your above statement. If Gothic culture is the antithesis is what your opinion is then what is the reason using the Gothic culture as an example? You shared your internal desire in the following and then contradicted yourself. The reasons only know to you and I hope you would share them with us.

I would be motivated by an internal desire to be a part of even small many. e.g the gothic culture.

My quote:
<<What do your parents think of it? I have no idea how old you are but is it a kind of rebellion against their value system without understanding why they have those values?>>

Your response:

and why does following own path gets labeled as rebellion?

I do not think you noticed that it is a YES or NO question. There is nothing why or but about it. Honesty and sincerity are important in any sort of interaction if one wants to be taken seriously.

My quote:

<<Do you consider the institution you are part of a false one? If yes, then in what way? If it is a false one then why this desire to fit in a false institution?>>

all institutions that propose to be the bridge between Akal and me are false for me.

Once again you have shown as a habit of dodging the questions which are based on your own statements. One wonders why!

but there are other institutions that i cherish -my country, my professional associations. They help me achieve my worldly objectives.

So, you like to be part of an institution? Thanks for admitting that after denying it repeatedly.

What kind of institution is your country? Does everyone in your country adhere to the same rules to be part of the institution?

My quote:
<<Well, if one knows it is a false institution then one must have the answer or the reason why one wants to be a part of something false, fake and sometime make believe hence not true.

This seems to contradict your statement in the other thread in which you said:true path
and the markers are constant.>>>

Your response which is nothing but a repetition:

well, you would have understood by now what i meant by Baal di khall udherni.

I would call this nothing but a cop out and shows timidity from someone who wants to be taken seriously.

If you do not have the courage to respond to your own statements then the statements themselves become futile and irrelevant.

Tejwant Singh

 

[Archived_Member_19]

<<Again that is your own presumption. It shows you are irritated when asked about what you said. I thought you wanted to be taken seriously.>>

tejwant ji

i hope you understand the meaning of this symbol

i have this spread out liberally to share my mood.

<You seem offended and become a bit edgy it seems when the questions. are asked based on your own statements to one can understand what you are trying to say.>>

absolutely not

however, questions asked without contemplation and reviewing the perspective display haste in trumping one's point rather than interest in understanding.

<<Well, this is what you said which seems to contradict your above statement. If Gothic culture is the antithesis is what your opinion is then what is the reason using the Gothic culture as an example? You shared your internal desire in the following and then contradicted yourself. The reasons only know to you and I hope you would share them with us.>>

why not?

why would i not try to understand what i do not believe in?




I never implied that "I" wanted to be a part of Gothic culture.

that is what i meant by when i said that my mode of dialogue is different, i liberally tend to use "I" instead of third person reference like someone etc. This helps me channelize my own opinions better.

<I do not think you noticed that it is a YES or NO question. There is nothing why or but about it. Honesty and sincerity are important in any sort of interaction if one wants to be taken seriously.>>

it was not a yes or no question.

the question was leading qn based on your assumption that i belong to gothic culture. It had assumptions and i tried to answer the theme which i could answer - Rebellion.

My question was that why is someone's action to follow their own choice termed as rebellion

Discussion is a two way street, please feel free to share why you term it as rebellion?

<<<<Do you consider the institution you are part of a false one? If yes, then in what way? If it is a false one then why this desire to fit in a false institution?>>

Quote:
all institutions that propose to be the bridge between Akal and me are false for me.
Once again you have shown as a habit of dodging the questions which are based on your own statements. One wonders why!>>

i couldn't be more crystal clear. I am not a part of any -ism institution. why in my sane mind would i join an institution that i deem as false?

a small request, please stop judging, you are putting your own foot in your mouth

<<but there are other institutions that i cherish -my country, my professional associations. They help me achieve my worldly objectives.
So, you like to be part of an institution? Thanks for admitting that after denying it repeatedly.

What kind of institution is your country? Does everyone in your country adhere to the same rules to be part of the institution?>>


i do not denounce Institution. They serve a purpose. For me the worldly purposes need institutions.

my country is an institution as defined by the constitution.

last time i checked, there were some basic criteria to be a citizen of my country.

and you did not digest what i wrote in previous line, i am reposting it here again:

all institutions that propose to be the bridge between Akal and me are false for me.

<<I would call this nothing but a cop out and shows timidity from someone who wants to be taken seriously.>>

i am really taking you seriously now :rofl!!:



p.s. btw i have been on internet boards and lists for around 15 years now. Your style of discussion is very typical, and i am not falling for it :}{}{}:

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Hick_Finn ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for contradicting yourself and your statements above show that it is you who judges and dodges. First person becomes the third person when challenged.

I do not care how long you have been on the internet, nor does it affect or bother me. When you say you are not falling for it, I know people like you who cop out and run away when challanged about their own statements. And as you must have noticed I did not fall for that.

Thanks for the indulgence. I have no more questions for you as you are not capable of responding but good at dodging.

Now, follow what Narayanjot ji said, follow and adhere to the topic of the thread. If you want to talk in first person and pretending to be the third person, you have the liberty to start a new thread.

Nice make up btw.

Tejwant Singh

 

[Archived_Member_19]

I hope today's discussion made you feel very happy

btw

i was wondering, what was the last point you made on the topic?

you were really busy nitpicking my one liner

 

[Archived_Member_19]

funny...the wise ones have disappeared

 

[Archived_Member_19]

Tejwant singh ji

i am so small compared to your lofty intelligence, how dare i teach you anything. Water flows from Higher to lower grounds and not other ways. Please share the ambrosial nectar of your understandings with us critters.

Thanks for complimenting my copy paste skills, it pays you know

please stick to the topic and add if you have anything useful for us nimaneyshttp://www-ai.ijs.si/eliza/eliza.html

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Tejwant singh ji

i am so small compared to your lofty intelligence, how dare i teach you anything. Water flows from Higher to lower grounds and not other ways. Please share the ambrosial nectar of your understandings with us critters.

Thanks for complimenting my copy paste skills, it pays you know

please stick to the topic and add if you have anything useful for us nimaneys

Huck_ Finn ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for proving my point which I mentioned in my other posts about copping out being natural for you.

When you write a post and Copy & Paste something, it is your duty and responsibility as a human being ( I have no idea and do not care what institution you belong to, btw Sikhi has no- ism) to explain what you mean.

My 6 year old niece also knows how to copy and paste quite well.

So, thanks for running away from your duties and responsibilities. The words become empty echo chambers when not explained.

Tejwant Singh

 

[Archived_Member_19]

<<Huck_ Finn ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for proving my point which I mentioned in my other posts about copping out being natural for you.

When you write a post and Copy & Paste something, it is your duty and responsibility as a human being ( I have no idea and do not care what institution you belong to, btw Sikhi has no- ism) to explain what you mean.

My 6 year old niece also knows how to copy and paste quite well.

So, thanks for running away from your duties and responsibilities. The words become empty echo chambers when not explained.

Tejwant Singh>>

you are so bright !

i am dazzled by the wisdom shining through your post.

Please

please contribute something that we may benefit from your thoughts.

Alas, all you do is rebuke me, a lowly illiterate.

i copy and paste the shabd with translations as i was told to do so. It is a forum rule.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Huck_Finn ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

i copy and paste the shabd with translations as i was told to do so. It is a forum rule.

You mean LITERAL translations? Have you checked them if they are correct or just blindly posted them?

Gyani ji, many others including myself have urged all who COPY & PASTE Shabads to also give their own versions because most of the literal translations are incorrect and misleading.

I have no idea why you feel insecure in expressing what you want to say in your own unique way as you proclaim to have..

So, if you have no idea what you are copying and pasting, it is unwise to post. Don't you think Prophet Huck_Finn?

What is the idea of copying and pasting something that you yourself do not know whether it is correct or not? You are an intelligent person. I have no idea why this certain metamorphosis into Ahimsa.

Tejwant Singh

 

[Archived_Member_19]

ELISA syndrome

 

[Archived_Member_19]

<<So, if you have no idea what you are copying and pasting, it is unwise to post. Don't you think Prophet Huck_Finn?>>

you are a slick baiter...aren't you?

i am amazed to read your posts in various threads....same trick over and over again

you are a one trick pony my boy...go learn some new tricks. You aren't gonna flame me :u):

 

[Archived_Member_19]

<<I have no idea why you feel insecure in expressing what you want to say in your own unique way as you proclaim to have..>>

everyone has limitations...i am glad you came to know yours.



my style is mine...you like it, read on, else...go fetch !

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Huck_Finn ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

my style is mine...you like it, read on, else...go fetch !

One can see you are getting angry and agitated. It happens when people are caught making things up and then timidly cop out when challenged.

Thanks for admitting that your style is to copy and paste the literal translations of the Shabads without having any idea what they mean.

Finally, we are beginning to seek the truth here, it seems.

Next time when you copy and paste literal translation of a Shabad, read it to check if it is correct which you admittedly said you did not do when you have posted many Shabads to try to prove your point. How can one prove one's point when one does not know what he is talking about

Give my love to Eliza... Does she wear the same make up as you do?

 

[Archived_Member_19]

<<One can see you are getting angry and agitated. It happens when people are caught making things up and then timidly cop out when challenged.>>

i always forget that this favorite line of ELIZA was just around the corner

here is a dissection of you Mr. Tejwant

you are a perfect sample of a type of netizen(Flamer) who's strategy is three step:

Ask a question

nit pick the answer

flame the other poster based on the response, if it's an early angry response - it's early christmas, else declare a chicken out !

Start the cycle again with incoherent off topic remarks peppered here and there, provoking till you get the angry response upon which the mods step in.

Smart guy...but you are too obvious

I have seen it across various threads, you seem subtle and do not go overboard, but continue with your pestering ways...

what you need is constructive support to help you overcome this habit. This can denigrate into a serious psychological imbalance if continued without intervention. I seriously hope that you are not like that and prove my assessment wrong.


<<Thanks for admitting that your style is to copy and paste the literal translations of the Shabads without having any idea what they mean.>>

If you can understand the Gurbani, why do you ask the meanings?

please read up the meaning of word "Contemplation" , it will help you.

I might not be knowing the true meaning, but i trust that with deeper contemplation upon the shabd, someday i will realize the real meaning.


maybe you have grown up eating ready meals at Taco or KFC, hence the impatience and uneasiness to go through each word and build understanding. Rather you want everything served on a plate or to-go

<<Next time when you copy and paste literal translation of a Shabad, read it to check if it is correct which you admittedly said you did not do when you have posted many Shabads to try to prove your point. How can one prove one's point when one does not know what he is talking about>>

you may choose to ignore what i post...O' Wise one !!
:rofl!!:


<<Give my love to Eliza... Does she wear the same make up as you do?>>

NPD?? :u):