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Diet code

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by CaramelChocolate, Dec 7, 2004.

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  1. CaramelChocolate

    CaramelChocolate
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    Waheguruji ka khalsa Waheguruji ki fateh.

    To my knowledge of Sikhism, Hindu and Jain prasad is just as forbidden as halal and kosher meat, however, many Sikhs fail to assert this when talking about forbidden foods in Sikhism. Why is this?

    ~CaramelChocolate~
     
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  3. drkhalsa

    drkhalsa
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    I could not understand what you want to say :confused: :confused:

     
  4. Arvind

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    Which prasad are you referring to?

    Regards.
     
  5. Neutral Singh

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    i think he may be talking about Maha Prasaad...
     
  6. CaramelChocolate

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    Hindu prasad. Jain prasad. Food offered to a Pagan/Jain/Hindu diety.

    ~CaramelChocolate~
     
  7. drkhalsa

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    Yea you are right caramel in Sikhism to make offering to the formless god in form of parsad is prohibited
     
  8. vijaydeep Singh

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    Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh
    Brother Carmel!

    It is in holy Bible that offering made to idols eaten by beliver are sins.

    But in Islam and Sikhism both utilising 'the plunder' of idolators wealth is OK.

    In Sikhs this may not be done by force but by logic.

    Das gives you an example,'In Delhi,we carry out Nagar Kirtan(Procession on streets).Often Hindus offer us offering or Prasad made to idols(as per there ritual without offering food before to gods and using it for human is a sin).

    We do not belive in the existance of divinity in Idols.Even if eat it,it is not a sin.Had idol real then its leftover eaten by us be sin.

    Yet we do a good thing.Before eating Prasad given by Hindus,We do Ardas(Prayer) to our Lord,God of gods Akal,The eternal,Then we touch the food by Hand(pan) of Mercy(Kripa) of God.This is called Kirpan(ie Sword like is the symbol of it hand of power's ultimate source ie God) Bheta(meeting or touching).

    Our God does not 'eat' food but 'tuouches' it via Kirpan. It is mere symbol of our gettting donation/Prasad from God.Who are we to offer anything to the one who gives us all.

    In Old Testment something similar is written,Maybe in Palslms or By David ,Das is sorry as he does not rember it exactly where it is in Holy Bible.
     
  9. CaramelChocolate

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    OK I am confused. Basically, what I am saying it is forbidden for Sikhs to eat doos which is offered to an idol...
     
  10. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh Ji,
    Dear Brother,
    Das has got your point.

    Thats was das trying to convey. To offer offering to an idol as per Sikhism is not good.But even if some athiest turns beliver(even in idol) Sikh must welcome it.As per Christian holy men,Pagenism is a step towrads faith(The summit in USA in which Vevekananda went was orgainised by Christians with this thing in mind).

    So to belive in idol for Sikhism is better then not at all beliving.

    So if some one gives a Prasad offered to an idol to a Sikh.If Sikh eats it,He/She still remains a Sikh.

    Sikhism is too storng to be Broken ,at least for an idol,Sikhs are sons and doughter of idol braker Guru Gobind Singh.
     
  11. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Gurfateh Ji,
    Dear Brother,
    Das has got your point.

    Thats was das trying to convey. To offer offering to an idol as per Sikhism is not good.But even if some athiest turns beliver(even in idol) Sikh must welcome it.As per Christian holy men,Pagenism is a step towrads faith(The summit in USA in which Vevekananda went was orgainised by Christians with this thing in mind).

    So to belive in idol for Sikhism is better then not at all beliving.

    So if some one gives a Prasad offered to an idol to a Sikh.If Sikh eats it,He/She still remains a Sikh.

    Sikhism is too storng to be Broken ,at least for an idol,Sikhs are sons and doughters of idol braker Guru Gobind Singh.
     
  12. CaramelChocolate

    CaramelChocolate
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    Ok I have been told this is not true [idol braker Guru Gobind Singh]. If this is true then I have the same respect for Sikhism as I do for the Abrahmic religions

    Amrit is broken if one eats halal meat, kosher meat, or hindu/pagan/jain prashad.

    ~CaramelChocolate~
     
  13. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh
    Brother!
    For your respect,Gurmat can not change,It is true,All Sikhs are idol Brakers.

    We do not brake idols by hand but by idealogy.

    Sewadas Udasi wrote in his book between the conversation of Aurangzeeb And Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

    Guru wrote to Aurangzeeb

    You brake idols of stone,The idol worshipper make more idol of clay,dough, and any thing they get.They do there daily routine by bowing to idols.Real Idol is ego.


    Later om he writes
    My khalsa is there who will brake the idols.

    If you go to sites

    Udasi.org
    Nirmalashramrishikesh.org

    You will find idols along Sikh holy scriptures.So if we have not to eat food offered to idols then those Gurudwaras are den of sin.

    Only Halal and tobacco is not allowed in us to eat.

    Coming Back to idols.Preachers like Nirmalas or Udais kept them to befool Afghans hunting for Sikhs like hound.So they took these Sikhs as Idol worshipping hindus.These Sikhs not only did provide logisitics,Intelligences etc. to Sikhs but also preached Sikhism,In Time when head of Sikh was of Rs 6(£ 500/- at present value).They also kept records of philosophy and history.

    As Idols was faound in our Gurudwaras so hindu to came to worship it. They imteracted with us.and many of them became Sikh.They stopped worshipping idol(Thats the way idol was broken).Holy Kuran is often kept in one orders Gurudwara where Muslims come.Even holy Bible as per shias is often found.

    Gurudev did write this thing clearly to Aurangzeeb King,when he attacked Sikhs with help of idol worshipping hindus.

    Guru Said
    The Hill Cheif(hindus) are idol worshipper
    I am Idol Braker
    (Jaffernammah).

    At the Last of the same book ie Dasham Granth Ji

    Maryada in Farsi is given

    Das gives you its best summery

    Mark of Sikhi letters are Five kaf(k)
    Any thing said at present is not adverse to old tradition(This means that Guru Before him may be supporting the same but recorded now).

    any sort of mistake in there regard are un forgivable.
    Kachchha(Short of speacial type),Karra(iron Bangle),Karad(Kirpan) and Kangh(Comb of lonng teeth).

    All are useless without Kesh(uncut hairs).

    Huqqa(huble buble ie smoking) Hazamat(Shaving of any kind) Halal(Meat from the animal killed as per Islamic rites(Holy Kuran also gives waiver to people with idealogy like Sikhs see Sura 2) ) Are Haram(forbiddan).

    Applying hinna(dying) on beard is like blackening of face.

    So this is the common minimum code accepted by Sikhs from most of the orders.All Sikhs must follow this.

    Food offered to idol my dear brother is not forbiddan for Sikhs in General.There are many order/part/sects who are introvert,they may have it in them.

    If we do not interact with idolators ,who can we take them off from idolatory.We do perform this task.Das is also idol Braker due to this.Das has himself by mercy of Akal guided many idolators to shun idolatory.This is a sin as per Vedas as well as Vedanta also.
     
  14. CaramelChocolate

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    Gurmat cannot change? Like I care, Like I even want it to change. I just think it is plain wrong to condemn someone's way or worship as wrong.

    I disagree, I think Halal, Kosher, Alcohol, Drugs, Tobacco and PRASADAM offered to idols is forbidden in Sikhism

    Please quote from Vedas and Vedanta to back up your claim.

    The way I see it, those who began to believe in a formless God do so out of ego.
    The fact that the ultimate Lord is willing to come to earth many times to uplift humanity shows the highest humility in the Lord's heart. He shows even more humility when he takes the form of an idol and accepts worship of the man in that way.

    God being ONLY formless, high mighty an omnipresent is a new concept in comparision to the older idea of idols and God taking the form of an idol.

    Personally I think it is easier to connect with God when he is in human form as we can relate to humans more since we are human.

    God can do ANYTHING, form, no form, anything he chooses.

    ~CaramelChocolate~
     
  15. vijaydeep Singh

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    Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

    So here das comes with reply

    Vedanta is based on Upnishads

    Which say that What all you see is God.

    Das is not qoting Upnishads as he is not having them with him but the main Idea is same.

    ultimate book to condemm Idolatory is wriiten by Ved Vysa and is called Brahm Sutra.And not a single man can break the logic of it.The Adi Shankar also wrote a tresstee on it.

    Just for any who say,God is formless living in heavan or has a body or ect.

    Quistion of Brahm Sutra is,'If God had body or limited extent then when God made universe,At which place did God stand.And who madse that place???

    If God is formless and lives in heavan then Body of God must be irregular shape but occuping some space in heavan so it is irrugular or Dynamic form.

    Only God can be formless if God occupies all space.Omni Present as per some Christian sects and Hindus and a Few from Islam means the one like bulb in a room.In all Part of room bulb is present so the God is present every where as God sees everything from Heavon.

    BUT as per Vedanta and Gurmat too,God is absorbed in all Matter.God is in all,All Shapes are of God so God has no particular shape or Particular form.

    Vedas as RigVeda say Purush Evad Sravada ie God is in All.

    Das is only giving two quote from Vedas

    He,The all Pervasive
    Pervades all beings
    Within and without
    Yajur Veda 32/8

    God has no Image
    Yajur Veda 32/3

    For Vedanta and Vedasyou can go for
    http://gitapress.org

    (they can help you to have books on Veda or Vedanata if they have them in English else they may teach you Hindi)

    But there is a large difference between Vedanta and Gurmat(Var 1 Bhai Gurdas)

    There only Knowledge and logic is there.So each individual says after knowledge that I am God(Aham Brahm Asmi).

    This is Ego.

    But in Gurmat ,We have Bhakti(Devotion),We say all is God,I am nothing in real not universe outside me All is God.We have devotion and hence humbleness for God everywhere.

    So Ego is broken and Respect for unverse,World and Manking comes in.We are ready to die for Human cause as Man is Image of God(Genesis).

    For Das and for Sikh God is in All,In some Like Lord Rama,Lord Jesus,Lord Moses,Prophet Mohamud(PBUH),Guru Nanak Dev Ji,Swami Vevekanand,And any tru Khalsa,God is more visible.

    BUT God is as much in you as in Das.May be by You God is testing Das's level of Understanding God.

    There is a Verse in Guru Granth Sahib Ji,
    'Pati Tore Malini...' By Saint Kabir(Das request that if possible some one bring out the whole for Das and Charamel.

    Which states

    ' Oh female Gardner,(Why You) pluck the Leaf Each leaf has life,(but) for the stone(idol) you pluck the Leafe is Lifeless.'
    So in the same Verse it is said that offering made to Idols are consumed by Comsumer and in real Idol mouth gets filled by Kshar(mud/Alkanie Soda).

    So Idol is just a stone and Khalsa does not Eat leftover of Others Person But Idol is not a Person.If we Belive it a Person like an idolator then only Should we be not eating the offering made to it.For us it is just a Stone,Yet for Many it may be a medium to reach the God.

    Yes,There are some Prasads offering to living God Men so they are Jutha(Leftovers),If a Sikhs eat it,Then he/she has to rebaptised like the Prasad of Radhswamis or Satya Sai etc (?).

    Forgive Das if something wrong is said.
     
  16. drkhalsa

    drkhalsa
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    Here is the verse vijaydeep is refering
    This Shabad is by Bhagat Kabeer Ji in Raag Aasaa on Pannaa 479


    Awsw sRI kbIr jIau ky pMcpdy 9 duquky 5

    aasaa sree kabeer jeeo kae pa(n)chapadhae 9 dhuthukae 5

    Aasaa, Kabeer Jee, 9 Panch-Padas, 5 Du-Tukas:



    <> siqgur pRswid ]

    ik oa(n)kaar sathigur prasaadh ||

    One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:



    pwqI qorY mwilnI pwqI pwqI jIau ]

    paathee thorai maalinee paathee paathee jeeo ||

    You tear off the leaves, O gardener, but in each and every leaf, there is life.



    ijsu pwhn kau pwqI qorY so pwhn inrjIau ]1]

    jis paahan ko paathee thorai so paahan nirajeeo ||1||

    That stone idol, for which you tear off those leaves - that stone idol is lifeless. ||1||



    BUlI mwlnI hY eyau ]

    bhoolee maalanee hai eaeo ||

    In this, you are mistaken, O gardener.



    siqguru jwgqw hY dyau ]1] rhwau ]

    sathigur jaagathaa hai dhaeo ||1|| rehaao ||

    The True Guru is the Living Lord. ||1||Pause||



    bRhmu pwqI ibsnu fwrI PUl sMkrdyau ]

    breham paathee bisan ddaaree fool sa(n)karadhaeo ||

    Brahma is in the leaves, Vishnu is in the branches, and Shiva is in the flowers.



    qIin dyv pRqiK qorih krih iks kI syau ]2]

    theen dhaev prathakh thorehi karehi kis kee saeo ||2||

    When you break these three gods, whose service are you performing? ||2||



    pwKwn giF kY mUriq kIn@I dy kY CwqI pwau ]

    paakhaan gadt kai moorath keenhee dhae kai shhaathee paao ||

    The sculptor carves the stone and fashions it into an idol, placing his feet upon its chest.



    jy eyh mUriq swcI hY qau gVHxhwry Kwau ]3]

    jae eaeh moorath saachee hai tho garrhanehaarae khaao ||3||

    If this stone god was true, it would devour the sculptor for this! ||3||



    Bwqu pihiq Aru lwpsI krkrw kwswru ]

    bhaath pehith ar laapasee karakaraa kaasaar ||

    Rice and beans, candies, cakes and cookies



    Bognhwry BoigAw iesu mUriq ky muK Cwru ]4]

    bhoganehaarae bhogiaa eis moorath kae mukh shhaar ||4||

    - the priest enjoys these, while he puts ashes into the mouth of the idol. ||4||



    mwilin BUlI jgu Bulwnw hm Bulwny nwih ]

    maalin bhoolee jag bhulaanaa ham bhulaanae naahi ||

    The gardener is mistaken, and the world is mistaken, but I am not mistaken.



    khu kbIr hm rwm rwKy ik®pw kir hir rwie ]5]1]14]

    kahu kabeer ham raam raakhae kirapaa kar har raae ||5||1||14||

    Says Kabeer, the Lord preserves me; the Lord, my King, has showered His Blessings upon
     
  17. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ki Fateh.

    IMHO the injunction against Hallal..was made to escape oppression. The Muslim Rulers of the Indian Sub continent had made it mandatory for everyone to consume only HALLAL. NO non-Muslim could even possess a KNIFE and if he wanted the chicken slaughtered he had to go look for a muslim./kazi/mullah etc. So to achieve "religious independence" GURU JI may have made it mandatory for his sikhs to JHATKA their own meat and escape the muslim tyranny in food item ( side note: riding horses, wearing DASTAARS, keeping weapons were other such measures enforced by GURU Ji to build up independence among sikhs)

    In MALAYSIA..a country where ISLAM has been declared the Offical religion in spite of having a substantial NON-Muslim MINOROTIES..ONLY HALLAL MEAT can be PROCESSED/sold widely. ( The ONLY non-Hallal meat sold is PORK ) ALL other meat MUST be Hallal..ALL MEAT IMPORTS coming in from Australia/USA etc MUST carry the HALLAL cert. IN Open air day markets ALL BUTCHERS MUST BE MUSLIMS ( mostly Bangladeshi migrant labour who may not even know the kalma...but it doesnt matter as long as the butcher is MUSLIM its OK..but Non-Muslim cannot be a butcher...recently a story broke in the local papers where a single Bnagladeshi butcher is reported to be Hallal slaughtering 10,000 chickens in a 8 hr shift....and so the local muslims were horrified that at this speed he couldnt be doing anything properly..stark reality that to "COMMERCIAL people there is no such thing as RELIGION !!!)

    MY point is that if in this modern times of democracy/world village /human rights/equality of all religions ..etc etc a country and its Govt can enforce such rules...what more the Draconian MUGHAL rulers of India who no one dared to question ?? SO definitely such draconian rules were in FORCE.

    Anyway back to this point. Sikhism FROWNS upon "SACRIFICIAL"..this whole idea of "SACRIFICING" a "living being" to please their GOD...kurbani/ritual slaughter/sacriifce etc is CONDEMNED by Bhagat kabeer Ji in Gurbani. As such a Sikh is forbidden to touch any food "sacrificed" to some god or other..even if it is ALLAH the One Formless God..or Kaliammah devi of Hindus.

    Jarnail Singh
     
  18. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh Parwan Ho!
    Gyani Sahib Ji,

    Das only wanted to tell one trick das often uses when he is in Muslim area.Das there eat only pork or fish as non-veg.So in malsia either you can eat theses two or if possible kill the animal yourself(Das too did it).But in Sikhism all food is from God and can never be to God
     
  19. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Correct veer Vijaydeep singh ji. Thats exactly what most Sikhs here do. One can buy fish/sea products, pork products or bring home a live chicken and jhatka it. BUT everything else in the Supermarkets, KFC, McDonalds, Pizza Huts, ordinary public Restaurants ( except Chinese ones that serve Pork ) etc etc all meat served has to be Hallal ONLY.... BY LAW.

    This is another scenario for thsoe who put forward the argument that since "halaal" rule was made by guru Ji in the time of Muslim hegemony..and NOW the situation is different....in More than 50 countries that are MUSLIM the situation is exactly the same as in Guru Ji's time. Hallal is ENFORCED as the ONLY meat by LAW for all citizens whether muslim or non muslim...no choice is given...So the Kuttha rule has to stay....until Every single country in the world is really FREE of this religious control.

    jarnail singh
     

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