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Dera Sants, Satgurus and Sikhi

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by dalsingh, Jul 29, 2006.

  1. dalsingh

    dalsingh
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    I came across this quote. I'm wondering, if Singhs held beliefs like this in the past, what is the position regarding sant worship?

    In travelling through the Shringnaghur country, our party was joined by a Sicque horseman, and being desirous of his acquaintance, I studiously offered him the various attentions which men observe to those they court. But the Sicque received my advances with a fixed reserve and disdain, giving me, however no individual cause of offence.; for his department to other passengers was no less contemptuous.His answer when I asked him the name of his chief, was wholly conformable to the observations I had made of his nation. He told me (in a tone of voice, and with an expression of countenance, which seemed to revolt at the idea of servitude) that he disdained an earthy superior, and acknowledged no other master than his prophet!

    George Forster - 1783
     
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  3. vijaydeep Singh

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    Re: Sants and Sikhi

    Gurfateh

    In Gurmat Sants are more neaer to Saints of Christianhood or Sufis then Hindu Sants but for Nirmala Sants.
     
  4. Sikh Namdhari

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    Re: Sants and Sikhi

    'Gun Naad Dhun Anandh, Kathath Sunath, Muun Janna: Mil Sant Mandali....' Aadh Guru Granth sahib

    Anyone who obeys his/her Guru's Hukam, engrosses his mind and spirit with the One, is always be seen in, or seeks the company of like minded God loving individuals... he /she is lovingly called " my Sant" by Guruji. Where these people congregate, Guruji has called Sadh Sangat, or as above Sant Mandali.
    The above text is not a transliteration of the Shabad, I have merely utilised the Gurbani to illustrate the notion.

    Sikhs only worship/ped God through their Satguru. A true Guru creates Sants. Nay: He created Devtas.

    'Balihari Gur Aapanae, Dioharee Sadh Var, Jin Manas Te Devtae Keeae Karat Na Laagee Vaar...' Aasa Dhee Vaar.

    When these Sants meet each other they respectfully touch each others feet, because they see their Guru in each other. When you get your Soul to this level of attainment you stop critisizing and trying to find fault in other peoples' methods of worship, because all is derived from the One. The One is the Total Sum of it's individual elements. Read Entire 3rd Chhaka: Aasa Dhee Vaar.
     
  5. truthseeker

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    Re: Sants and Sikhi

    Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh

    sorry to go off topic here.. but i heard that in order to be a "sant" one can go to 'sant school' is that true??
    and if its not... how does a person achieve the title of sant???

    bhul chuk maaf

    Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh
     
  6. dalsingh

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    Re: Sants and Sikhi

    ----------------

    I'm confused, the panj piare were content to call themselves Bhai. I can't recall anyone from early Sikh history being referred to as Sant, they were all bhais. What is a sant exactly and how do they become sants and who was the first Sikh sant? More importantly is is ok for Sikhs to worship them, like I have seen many do?
     
  7. truthseeker

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    Re: Sants and Sikhi

    Im cunfused too,
    these are my questions as well..
    hmmmmm
     
  8. Sikh Namdhari

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    Re: Sants and Sikhi

    You are already in 'Sant' school. When you took Amrit and Naam you enlisted. Now recite that Naam, study Gurbani with understanding and try to follow the path that all the Satgurus have written down in Aadh Guru Granth Sahib and Dhasam Guru Granth Sahib. The Lord God will give you the title of Sant in His Realm. When you start looking for the earthly title of Sant, you will loose all. All of our preceding Gurus' Sikhs were 'Sants'. All who engross themselves in Naam, Bani today are Sants. True Sants don't allow people to worship them, they guide all to the Charan of Satguruji, from whence they recieve all gifts.
     
  9. dalsingh

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    Re: Sants and Sikhi

    True Sants don't allow people to worship them, they guide all to the Charan of Satguruji, from whence they recieve all gifts.
    ------------------------------------

    If this is true than we are in trouble as there are so many sants around that have people matha tek them and have their photos all over their Gurdwaras, almost like modern day Gurus.

    This is confusing because I know that some of these at least may perform some good social work in the community but the attention they bring to themselves seems strange. Most though seem to totally ignore the other sipahi side of Sikhi.


    I don't mean to offend anyone with these comments, just want to expand my knowledge.
     
  10. Sikh Namdhari

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    Re: Sants and Sikhi

    Anyone who has met with God and then leads other souls to Him is worthy of the title of Satguru: 'Sath Purakh Jin Jania, Satgur This Ka Nao...' Aadh Guru Granth Sahib.

    If any Sant is fortunate enough to have had Darshan of Akaal Purakh, then He/She is a Brahamgiani, Mahapurash; if He/She chooses or is Commanded by God to spread His Naam, then that Person is a True Teacher..a Satguru. How does the ordinary mortal recognise such a Mahapurash? We don't have that divine knowledge. We haven't the perception. That is where it becomes essential for us to read the instructions our Satgurus of yesteryear have left us within the Holy pages of the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib. The definition of Satguru is written throughout its pages. If any Sant/Mahapurash meets that criteria, then we are commanded to drink the water that washes His feet, rub the dust that His feet have trodden on on our forheads. If we then serve such a Satguru, He then imparts the Amrit Naam in our ears, which when we recite brings salvation to our souls.

    As for being a Sipahi, well there is no need for militancy unless there is a desperate need to defend either one's own self or some helpless soul.

    In that regard it is essential to keep the body fit and healthy and during the course of your daily regime to learn some aspects of self defence, if possible, but there is definately no need to make an institutional army for no purpose other than for the sake of it.
     
  11. dalsingh

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    Re: Sants and Sikhi

    That was really well put Namdhari. The bit where you said

    "In that regard it is essential to keep the body fit and healthy and during the course of your daily regime to learn some aspects of self defence, if possible, but there is definately no need to make an institutional army for no purpose other than for the sake of it."

    seems a bit flawed as you could easily get caught unawares (i.e Jews in Nazi Germany).
     
  12. Sikh Namdhari

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    Re: Sants and Sikhi

    "seems a bit flawed as you could easily get caught unawares (i.e Jews in Nazi Germany)."Today 02:45 PM

    You are right. But there is a difference between us and the Jews. They don't believe in the existance of the living Satguru, therefore they have no one to be their salvation in this world (I don't know of their provisions for the next). We have a living Satguru who guides us, if we choose to listen to him.

    Years before Pakistan was formed Satguru Partap Singhji went to the region and asked all the Sikhs and Hindhus to leave that side and cross the river into what would remain Bharat/India. Even some Namdhari Sikhs who believed He was the True Guru wouldn't leave their lands (which had been in their families for generations); never mind those who thought He was in imposter. People called him 'mad'. "What could possibly happen, that we should leave the land of our ancestors. Land that even back then was worth thousands to some people. You have to realise that the Punjab back then formed 1/3 of the whole of India! Noone could even dream of the holocaust of such a scale as happened during partition. Satguruji bought land in what is now 'Sirsa' in Haryana. Back then it was semi- arid land. All of His Sikhs who listened to him and left, He gave equal amounts of land to what they had relinquished in Pakistan. Many who were poor were given the land for free. Many wealthy gave offerings to the Gurdhwara in return for the land. Many, who were of strong faith accepted the will of the Satguru. But even then there were those who complained: We had fertile land. Is this what you are giving us in return? Sand?

    I have been to Sirsa in 1982. The village I went to is called Sri Jiwan Nagar. It is one of the most lush green farmland as you could ever find anywhere in the Punjab. You couldn't buy that land because noone wants to sell! This was once semi desert!

    And those who swore at Satguruji: His own Sikhs who lost faith because they couldn't see the future, they couldn't see what He was saving them from, I have seen them weeping and begging forgiveness for loosing faith and blaspheming against Him. Those who left pre-Pakistan at Satguruji's command number thousands of families. A portion of those are settled in Sri-Jiwan Nagar and surrounding villages.

    This is just one small story from millions, of the difference between having a Satguru (to guide and protect you in this life and the next) and not.

    Everything happens in His will. There are times when He chooses not to do anything to show His power over man and nature, but then there are times when He produces miracles on a scale that is impossible to ignore.

    It also depends on what individual Karam have been sown. We reap what we have sown in our previous lives.
     
  13. dalsingh

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    Re: Sants and Sikhi

    >>
    <<

    Do you think we shouldn't help say starving people, or oppressed people because they are getting whats coming to them? or we shouldn't fight back if someone is trying to oppress us because we are receiving divine retribution for last lifes failings?
     
  14. Sikh Namdhari

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    Re: Sants and Sikhi

    It doesn't matter who you believe to be your Guru. But the fundamental difference between believing in a living Guru as per the commandments in the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib and a belief ( whether correct or not) that Satguru Gobind Singhji transfered the throne of Gurgaddhi to the same Holy Granth, is that the Holy Granth, (which incidently, contains the Shabads of living Gurus, who whenever they described or defined a Guru were talking of their predecessors, who were Human in form.) is that the Guru in Human form is proactive. Always was, is and always will be.

    This is not to say that those that believe in a Human Guru disrespect the Holy Gurbani. Far from it. To follow and recieve Naam from a Living Human Guru is precisely what the Gurbani in the two Guru Granth Sahibs ordains.

    I know that there is a lot of resentment against Human Gurus within the vast majority of our Sikh bretheren. Most of that hatred, yes -hatred stems from the days of Satguru Teg Bahadhurji. When the likes of Dheer Mall coveted the Holy Scriptures. There were certain elements who were of the opinion that if they had ownership of the Pothi Sahib (as it was known then) they would be able to control and lead the masses. Guruji was even forbidden to enter the Golden Temple at Amritsar! He was turned away at the Gates! Today the decendants of those same 'great Custodians of the Scriptures' would have the masses believe that Satguru Gobind Singhji passed away at Naded, when in fact there is NO historical evidence that he did. What is evident is that He had a funeral pyre built around which He had a screen erected. He ORDERED the Sikhs present not to follow Him, not to look for His ashes. He also had His horse saddled. When the Sikhs asked Him what would become of them He ordered them to have faith in the Gurbani, something all the Gurus had always and are still Ordering. There is no evidence in any of His own writings in which He propogates the Shabad Guru concept, or the Five Pyarae being Guru concept ( He mentions that those who obey Him will become His Swaroop, something all Gurus say to their Sikhs. But conveying the Gurugaddhi to the 5- was never done), nor is there any hint in any of His Banis in which he even contemplates Guru manyo Granth! I challenge any modern Sikh to show me Satguru Gobind Singhji's Gurbani in which he propgates the concept of 'Granth Guru'. Surely such a major shift in the whole concept of the Gurgaddhi should have taken on mention in His writings? None whatsoever.

    When the fire burned itself out, the Sikhs did exactly what they were ordered not to do: they looked for Guruji's ashes - and found none. THIS IS RECORDED. What is also recorded is that Guruji gave Darshan to two hermits in the jungle as He galloped away and told them to tell the weeping Sikhs that He hadn't left this life and was still amongst them. Thereafter many Sikhs had His darshan as and when He chose. There are Gurdhwaras built at various sites where The 10th Lord was seen after His so called demise. These facts are staring us in our faces and yet we sinners keep repeating lies for the advancement of our shameless pursuits.

    'Agia Bhei Akaal Ki ......
    ...Sabh Sikhen ko Hukam He Guru manio Granth.....' is part of a piece of poetry that is attributed in Sikh history to a Man called Prahalad Singh. Many decievers would have you believe it is Satguru Gobind Singhji's writing... IT IS CATEGORICALLY NOT.

    However, it is not in anyones interest to fight over these issues. Too many generations have passed. People have a staunch faith in what they have been lead to believe. New theories, with the help of Empirical English Masters have been formulated. Whereas in the days of pre-Singh Sabha ALL Sikhs KNEW that a Guru was a Living Human Being. Todays 'Sikhs' deny even the possibility of there ever being one. I have even come across those who propogate the ridiculouse theory that Satguru Nanak Devji was the one who told us to believe in 'Shabad Guru'. They cite the verses: 'Sabad Guru, Surat Dhun Chela' from the Sidh Gost.
    How twisted is that interpretation. Without going into too much detail, the only thing these misled individuals are forgetting when they try to spread these lies is that it was none other than SATGURU NANAK DEVJI who STARTED THE LINE OF HUMAN GURUS THAT HE ORDAINED WOULD CONTINUE THROUGHOUT THIS AGE OF KALYUG. - READ THE COMMANDMENTS IN THE AADH GURU GRANTH SAHIB ON THIS ISSUE.

    Namdhari Sikhi is not a cult. It is a preservation of all that is sacred within the Panth from the time of Satguru Nanak Devji to Satguru Gobind Singhji and beyond. From the belief in a Living Satguru to the respect, honour and adaptation of the Holy Gurbanis of the Aadh and Dasam Guru Granth Sahibs into the lives of all Sikhs. To sing those Banis in the Raags they were composed in, utilising the original correct pronunciation that the Holy words were spelt in. Not to assume what the Guru Sahibs meant, but to understand the Bani literally where it is supposed to be taken literally. Todays scholars would teach you to take the most important issues metaphorically, which is wrong.

    Please, do not form the view that I am attacking anyones beliefs. I am merely putting across the beliefs and facts as the Namdhari Sikhs know them. Whatever your faith or belief, we are told to respect and I do. So if by expressing my belief I have caused anyone offence I humbly apologise.

    I'm sorry Dal Singhji, it's gone midnight and I need to sleep! I will post replies to the rest of your questions next time.

    Sat-Sri-Akaal, ji
     
    #13 Sikh Namdhari, Aug 3, 2006
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2006
  15. dalsingh

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    Re: Sants and Sikhi

    You said: Too many generations have passed. People have a staunch faith in what they have been lead to believe. New theories, with the help of Empirical English Masters have been formulated. Whereas in the days of pre-Singh Sabha ALL Sikhs KNEW that a Guru was a Living Human Being.
    -----------------------------------------------
    Ok cool, but please take a second and look at the original quote. It is pre-Singh Sabha (1783!!) and pretty much what Singh Sabha sort of teaches, equality of Sikhs with no human leader as per Guru Gobind Singh in tradional accounts. Unless of course you thought that Forster was lying.

    You said:
    Not to assume what the Guru Sahibs meant, but to understand the Bani literally where it is supposed to be taken literally. Todays scholars would teach you to take the most important issues metaphorically, which is wrong.


    I totally disagree. Metaphors are common methods of teaching points.


    PS - Although I don't share your beliefs regarding G. Gobind's later life, you are entitled to your opinion. But we should maybe study Sainpati's Gursobha which is apparently the most contemporary Sikh source on the subject (early 18 century). Plus Parchian Seva Das, they may shed light on what happened.

    Are you suggesting that G. Gobind krept out of his own funeral and secretly helped the panth?
     
  16. vijaydeep Singh

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    Re: Sants and Sikhi

    Gurfateh

    Brother Namdhari Ji,

    Are yo awre of Neldharis?

    They also are your branch but behold your 12th Satiguru as Baba only.

    anyway are you aware that Tenth Master beheld Gurbani as Satiguru himslef.And he took baptism from Khalsa and passed Gurudome to us via Tilak of Saffron before levaing to Sachkhand.In your version of Sau Sakhi Charan Pahul is from Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

    Anyway das respect you views and respect your Satiguru also.But if your Satiguru is Sikh,he is eqaul to any Sikh and whole Guru Panth is Satiguru.Before our Panth in hindus lving Satiguru was there.We have Dehdhari Guru in Sanatan Sikhism but that is to represent Guru Panth.Or Gurubar Akal takin over Deh or body of persaon making him/her Khalsa.Khalsa Guru hai Guru hai Khalsa(Sau Sakhi).

    Das bows to Baba Ram Singh Ji as From of Tenth Guru as Khalsa but like him we have many other great Sikhs like Prof Sahib Singh Ji,Bhai Randheer Singh Ji,Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalas among others.
     
  17. Sikh Namdhari

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    Re: Sants and Sikhi

    Sat-Sri Akaal Vijaydeep Singhji

    I must apologise in advance for any delays in responding to replys as I run a business and this debate is only something that I have got into in reluctant reaction to the many misconceptions that I read on the internet.

    Yes I am aware of Neeldharis. But again Veerji, you have been mislead about their beliefs. They do hold Satguru Ram Singhji as the twelfth Master... but they don't believe in the Guruship of the Guardians of the Gurgaddhi in His absence, as we all believe in the return of Satguru Ram Singhji as fortold by Satguru Nanak Deviji and Satguru Gobind Singhji.

    Sau Sakhi, if you have read any version would not be the true original, because when the true Khalsa started to preach it the British imprisoned them. They burned all the books that posed a threat to their Empire. But when the flow of the Satguru's influence could not be checked they hired traitor Sikhs like Sir Attar Singh Aluhallia to translate and then change the wordings of many a Granth, not just the Sau Sakhi to confuse the Sikhs as to what the true teachings were!

    A very important point for all seekers of the truth: You compare Satguru Ram Singhji to ordinary men. I implore you: read the life story of Satguru Ram Singhji and compare it to the Sikhs you speak of and then tell me if He is not SATGURU. Don't read the writings about Satguruji by those who have been inspired by traitorous propoganda. 'Satgur Bilas' is a two volume Epic in the Namdhari Panth which records Sakhis from Satguru Ram Singhji's contemporaries. Real life accounts of how He gave Naam to thousands at a time, and changed their lives. How He breathed new life into an almost extinct Khalsa. This was at a time after the Khalsa army of Maharaja Ranjit Singh was annihilated by the British, and all ideas of a powerful Sikhi were trodden into the earth. Our Gurudhwaras were controlled by the British and their puppets so that no idea of resistance against their Empire could go unnoticed. This was a time when noone dared to speak against the Empire for fear of death. All of your ancestors were schooled by this governing force. So naturally, when the twelfth Master started to spread His Universal message, the British counterattacked by using the Gurdhwaras as centres for instigating hatred for the Living Guru. That hatred lives on today. You see it time and time again.

    Your words that Satguru Gobind Singhji believed in the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib as Guru could not be further from the truth, my brother. If that were the case...:
    What do you believe Satguru Gobind Singh to be?
    Do you also compare Him to the ordinary mortals whose names you mention? Search your hearts brothers and have shame.

    It is not your fault, it's the influence of Kalyug. One false theory is spawining hundreds and thousands more.

    You speak of Living Satguru in Hindhu belief. Here is another lie that the British have instilled in your minds to confuse and divide the people. Hindhu and Sikh belief about God and Satguru is one and the same. I know you have been indoctrinated to believe otherwise, that is why your 'leaders' do not want you to read the writings of Satguru Gobind Singhji. Read Dasam Guru Granth Sahib O unfortunates and see what The Tenth Lords Ordains. Khalsa was formed to defend Hindhu Dharam! (Not it's degenerate rituals such as idol worship etc. - but the True values which had lost credence.)

    Today we have become so full of our ego that we call ourselves GURU?

    If each and everyone of us is Guru, then what becomes of our belief in Aadh Guru Granth Sahib as Guru? Is each one of us equal to it's Holy teachings?

    The Satguru is COMPLETE. HE is SARB KALA SAMRATH.

    In vain attempts to make their theories work they have had to divide the Satguru into three parts:

    First false theory:
    No Human Guru
    Aadh Guru Granth Sahib is Guru-

    But The Holy Scriptures are not capable of giving Gur-manthr.

    (Gur-manthr is what a Guru is all about. It is also known within Gurmat as Gur-Sabad. The Satguru gives this Gur-Manthr in the ears of His Sikhs, which they then recite.
    The propogators of these manmat theories use this word to justify the Shabad Guru theory by twisting its meaning.)

    Hence the need to create a
    Second false theory:

    Khalsa is Guru

    "When the 5 Pyarea give Amrit, they pass on the Gurmanthr by repeating Wahiguru -Ji - Ka- Khalsa, Sri Wahiguruji- Ki- Fateh."

    So, now we still need a Human form of Guru, this contradicts the first theory. Now you not only have one Dehdhari Guru, but -God help us -FIVE!

    Third false theory:
    Shabad is Guru

    This theory was helplessly evolved to counter the practice of actually worshipping the Bindings of the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib. But you still see us Sikhs resorting to a form of Idol worship when we start attributing life to what is lifeless. What have we degenerated into?

    (The Gurbani has Divine power only when we read it and understand it and then implement it's teachings into our lives and search out a True Guru to give us His Gurmanthr so that we can leave this world with our sins washed.)

    So according to the history as recited by this school, Satguru Gobind Singhji passed on the Gurgaddhi at least three times in His lifetime?
    What was His role when He was busy doing this, or after He had done this?

    If you believe in the writings of the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib as eternal truth, then read the Vaars of Bhai Gurdasji(I) whose writings are renouned in the Panth as the KEY to understanding the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib:

    Vaar 6 Pauri 16

    Dhan, Dhan Satgur Purakh, Nirankar Akaar banaia...

    To counter the false meanings of modern 'scholars' you have to remember that these Vaars were written at a time when Satguru Arjun Devji was the 5th Purakh (Human) Satguru that the WHOLE of the Sikh Panth believed in, despite the fact that the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib had been wriiten. If there is only ONE TRUTH, then that truth DOES NOT CHANGE!!! GOD CREATED HIS FORM INTO SATGUR AND APPEARED ON EARTH IN HUMAN FORM. The words: Nirankar Akaar banaia mean:
    The Formless created Form..
    and appeared on Earth as Satgur.
    Bhai Gurdasji calls such a Satguru 'Dhan'- he goes on in the same Vaar to call those Sikhs Dhan, who place their forheads at the Charan(feet) of this Satgur. Please don't even go down the road of telling me that 'Charan' is a hypothetical concept.

    No mere mortal can be Satguru unless the Satguru so chooses. Holy Scriptures and history catagorically prove that to be Satguru you have to be immersed in Naam and be capable of immersing others in Naam and changing the course of their Karam. Satgur is in His ONE form capable of ALL THINGS. He does not need to be divided.

    Please read also the Dasam Guru Granth Sahib and try to understand what Satguru Gobind Singhji made us and what we are slowly evolving into!!!

    Unfortunately these evil forces have succeeded in blaspheming against the very Gurbani that tells us of what the Khalsa Panth should be, and they even proclaim that it is not the writing of the Tenth Satguru.

    I am not going to counter all of your misconceptions here and now, already I have spent too much time on this computer. But if Satguruji's will permits we will do Satsang again.

    Once again, when one talks about what one believes in, the passion of belief can sometimes hurt feelings, especialy if they differ.
    My intention is not to attack belief and if that is how I have come across I beg your Sadhs' forgiveness from the bottom of my heart. For you are Sadhs who seek God.
     
  18. dalsingh

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    Re: Sants and Sikhi

    Paaji,

    All of the references to saints in Bhai Gurdas's work refer to the importance of sadh sangat and are put in a way that suggests it is fellow Gursikhs that are being refered to as saints.

    Not a living replacement of the Guru.
     
  19. Sikh Namdhari

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    Re: Sants and Sikhi

    Sat-Sri-Akaal Dal Singhji

    I agree with you totally on that one. If you look at our earlier discussion that was what I said. As Bhai Gurdas's Vaars are simplyfied versions of the Aadh Gurbani, he is merely repeating what Satguruji ordained. All Satgurus addressed their Sikhs as 'Sants'. You see it in both Guru Granth Sahibs time and time again. Satguru Ram Singhji's Hukam to all His Sikhs is to address each other as Santji for that very reason.

    I am talking about the definition for Guru and/or Satguru. The verses I have quoted describe the Satguru, not Sants. Why are you ignoring this fact?

    What is your understanding of Satguru/Guru? How do you relate that to the definitions given in the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib? When you say "Not a living replacement of the Guru" I despair.

    A guru is nothing but living!

    Did Guru Nanak Devji not live and teach?

    Is not the whole of the Gurbani written by Masters who lived?

    From Ramanandji, Kabirji, Faridji....? They were all Gurus in their own right!

    Kabirji's Guru was Ramanandji, from whom He recieved the gift of Naam.

    Satguru Gobind Singhji writes in His Bani:

    Jaagat Jot Japai Nisbasur...

    God is real, God exists , He is not a hypothetical Entity, therefore He comes to this Earth and other planets as a living Entity.
     
  20. ceo_nikka

    ceo_nikka
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    Re: Sants and Sikhi

    What's so "new", "unique" and "additional" your deh-dhari Guru is giving you which is not given by ten jots of Guru Nanak in past and Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

    Pls enlighten.

    -Mandeep Singh
     
  21. dalsingh

    dalsingh
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