Debate: Spiritual Vs Non Spiritual Interpretation Of Gurbani

[Sherdil]

What does an apple taste like ?
I really want to know.

Oh yes, what does velvet and fur feel like to stroke ? ....and how would you distinguish ??

Apples taste sweet. Sometimes they taste sour if they get too ripe.

Velvet is soft to the touch. It feels fuzzy and smooth. Fur feels like hair, but the consistency depends on the animal.

How do you know when you are in love? Describe it...

Love feels like you are addicted to the person.

We have seen what lies beyond the box...and we can never forget what we saw when peeping through the crack in the lid, and so we can never go back to just living in a box.

See the dilemma??

Not really. Just tell us what you saw.

You guys are getting offended because you are reading too much into my question. I have nothing up my sleeve. There are no hidden traps. Imagine if a non-Sikh asked you this question. What would you say to them?

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Tejwant Ji, I posted that because frankly its what it feels like... how else can I describe that I have had powerful spiritual experiences, only to have people question them and tell me they were only states of mind and not real. It's frustrating because I feel so in awe and wish I could share it, but I can't... because yes it feels like some people don't want to see beyond the physical (what I called the 'box' in the last post) I am not accusing anyone of anything... I am only frustrated because how can both groups ever meet in the middle?

I have been the only one who has said that possibly Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was written so that BOTH groups could find meaning in the same verses. But then have others come on and say no it was written only for the physical and only for this life... basically equating it to a psychology book.

That's why I said... I have given up selling... nothing I say can convince others of the experiences I have had, unless they have had the same experiences. So unless / until they do... they can only see what they have.

Maybe I am the one who is lowly then... if Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is only written as an instruction manual o how to get along with others and be happy in this physical life, then maybe I am focusing too much on the spiritual and I should try to forget what I have experienced and live only for the physical. The problem is... I can't forget... you know what if someone could make me forget that feeling of oneness and the awe and realization and HOPE that there is more than the physical... if anyone knows then tell me and I will. It would make things so much easier.

It wasn't meant to demean anyone as you have accused Tejwant Ji... it was meant to show my frustration in that how do you even begin to find common ground?? Every time I have presented a theory on how spiritual can actually agree with science, and that Gurbani agrees with it... I have been shot down in favour of it meaning simply a state of mind or getting along with others or not being miserable. I have been the only one who suggested that maybe it was written so that both paths would get understanding from it, and that it was written like that on purpose... but again was shot down and attacked by Harry Ji, Japjisahib Ji, etc. mocked by Sherdil, and accused by you. I have not once accused anyone of anything, or mocked anyone, etc.

Admin Ji pls delete this thread... it is going nowhere.

 

[linzer]

I've been watching from the sidline and I think Guru ji covered this already.Pauris 12-15 of the Japji describe both sides of this topic perfectly so don't get your Kacheras in a bunch
mMny kI giq khI n jwie ] <?xml:namespace prefix = "o" ns = "urn:fficeffice" />
mannay kee gat kahee na jaa-ay.
The state of the faithful cannot be described.
jy ko khY ipCY pCuqwie ]
jay ko kahai pichhai pachhutaa-ay.
One who tries to describe this shall regret the attempt.
kwgid klm n ilKxhwru ]
kaagad kalam na likhanhaar.
No paper, no pen, no scribe
mMny kw bih krin vIcwru ]
mannay kaa bahi karan veechaar.
can record the state of the faithful.
AYsw nwmu inrMjnu hoie ]
aisaa naam niranjan ho-ay.
Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord.
jy ko mMin jwxY min koie ]12]
jay ko man jaanai man ko-ay. ||12||
Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. ||12||
mMnY suriq hovY min buiD ]
mannai surat hovai man buDh.
The faithful have intuitive awareness and intelligence.
mMnY sgl Bvx kI suiD ]
mannai sagal bhavan kee suDh.
The faithful know about all worlds and realms.
mMnY muih cotw nw Kwie ]
mannai muhi chotaa naa khaa-ay.
The faithful shall never be struck across the face.
mMnY jm kY swiQ n jwie ]
mannai jam kai saath na jaa-ay.
The faithful do not have to go with the Messenger of Death.
AYsw nwmu inrMjnu hoie ]
aisaa naam niranjan ho-ay.
Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord.
jy ko mMin jwxY min koie ]13]
jay ko man jaanai man ko-ay. ||13||
Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. ||13||
mMnY mwrig Twk n pwie ]
mannai maarag thaak na paa-ay.
The path of the faithful shall never be blocked.
mMnY piq isau prgtu jwie ]
mannai pat si-o pargat jaa-ay.
The faithful shall depart with honor and fame.
mMnY mgu n clY pMQu ]
mannai mag na chalai panth.
The faithful do not follow empty religious rituals.
mMnY Drm syqI snbMDu ]
mannai Dharam saytee san-banDh.
The faithful are firmly bound to the Dharma.
AYsw nwmu inrMjnu hoie ]
aisaa naam niranjan ho-ay.
Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord.
jy ko mMin jwxY min koie ]14]
jay ko man jaanai man ko-ay. ||14||
Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. ||14||
mMnY pwvih moKu duAwru ]
mannai paavahi mokh du-aar.
The faithful find the Door of Liberation.
mMnY prvwrY swDwru ]
mannai parvaarai saaDhaar.
The faithful uplift and redeem their family and relations.
mMnY qrY qwry guru isK ]
mannai tarai taaray gur sikh.
The faithful are saved, and carried across with the Sikhs of the Guru.
mMnY nwnk Bvih n iBK ]
mannai naanak bhavahi na bhikh.
The faithful, O Nanak, do not wander around begging.
AYsw nwmu inrMjnu hoie ]
aisaa naam niranjan ho-ay.
Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord.
jy ko mMin jwxY min koie ]15]
jay ko man jaanai man ko-ay. ||15||
Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. ||15||
<o>Best wishes to all</o>
<o>Linzer</o>

 

[Harry Haller]

I consider myself spiritual, however, to me spiritual means something different to tripping the light fantastic.

 

[japjisahib04]

Akasha Jee

I humbly tell you that I have no idea how to experience my beloved (or have any knowledge of that such powerful spiritual messages as seen by you which validate the experiences of those of you who have seen beyond the box) and in that state of mind, like my guru I request you to kindly tell me how to experience, 'ਕਿਨ ਬਿਧਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਗੁਸਾਈ ਮੇਰੇ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਇ ॥ p.204 but guru sahib at the same time is requesting, 'ਕੋਈ ਐਸਾ ਸੰਤੁ ਸਹਜ ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ' the invalueable technique of attaining ਸਹਜ by living with ਸੰਤੁ divine traits, which shows me the path, 'ਮੋਹਿ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਦੇਇ ਬਤਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ so that I may be able to see beyond box as claimed by you Akasha jee, though guru sahib ends destination by achieving SEHJ. But it seems the spiritual power you are referring is to break the 'sehj' and not attain the sehj. As living with divine traits, sehj subhai mera manh mania without any efforts.

In the end of the sabd, guru sahib is telling since both my 'manh and traits of nijghar are able to see face to face, I am in a state of sachkhand and ' ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਖਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਠਾ' in an instant virus of that beyond box dilemma runs away.

Akasha jee, when I live and share 'saabat bast' - undiluted inner message' with all of you I really experience the divine within me and realizes I am in love.

 

[Sherdil]

I consider myself spiritual, however, to me spiritual means something different to tripping the light fantastic.

Exactly. When people use words like "spiritual" or "I have seen something that cannot be unseen" or "I can't describe it", then that gets me worried. I have no idea if they are referring to what is written in gurbani or something else. For all I know, they could be talking about having conversations with ghosts, astral projection, recollecting past lives, etc. These all fall under the category of "spiritual" and they all go beyond the "physical world". I don't believe that they can't elaborate on their experiences. GGS contains 1430 pages describing this state of divine bliss and love. If that is what they are referring to, then there are so many shabadhs they can reference to drive home their point, like the one Linzer pulled.

I was actually hoping someone would pull the few shabadhs that appear before that. They end in "Nanak bhagta sada vigaas. Sunieh dukh paap ka naas". Nanak, the devotees forever remain in bliss. Listening, the pain of their sins is washed away.

Here is one of them for reference. It appears on page 2 of GGS

ਸੁਣਿਐ ਸਿਧ ਪੀਰ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਾਥ ॥
सुणिऐ सिध पीर सुरि नाथ ॥
Suṇi▫ai siḏẖ pīr sur nāth.
Listening-the Siddhas, the spiritual teachers, the heroic warriors, the yogic masters.
ਸੁਣਿਐ ਧਰਤਿ ਧਵਲ ਆਕਾਸ ॥
सुणिऐ धरति धवल आकास ॥
Suṇi▫ai ḏẖaraṯ ḏẖaval ākās.
Listening-the earth, its support and the Akaashic ethers.
ਸੁਣਿਐ ਦੀਪ ਲੋਅ ਪਾਤਾਲ ॥
सुणिऐ दीप लोअ पाताल ॥
Suṇi▫ai ḏīp lo▫a pāṯāl.
Listening-the oceans, the lands of the world and the nether regions of the underworld.
ਸੁਣਿਐ ਪੋਹਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕਾਲੁ ॥
सुणिऐ पोहि न सकै कालु ॥
Suṇi▫ai pohi na sakai kāl.
Listening-Death cannot even touch you.
ਨਾਨਕ ਭਗਤਾ ਸਦਾ ਵਿਗਾਸੁ ॥
नानक भगता सदा विगासु ॥
Nānak bẖagṯā saḏā vigās.
O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss.
ਸੁਣਿਐ ਦੂਖ ਪਾਪ ਕਾ ਨਾਸੁ ॥੮॥
सुणिऐ दूख पाप का नासु ॥८॥
Suṇi▫ai ḏūkẖ pāp kā nās. ||8||
Listening-pain and sin are erased. ||8||

This is my whole point of asking the question. Listening to the "celestial music" brings peace of mind. The devotees remain in bliss. Their guilt and sorrows are erased. One can even say it is therapeutic, therefore within the realm of psychology. What else is the realization of "oneness" with everything supposed to achieve?

No offense is intended

 

[Ambarsaria]

Fellow spners I think we need to take stock of some basics as we are all the same, as well as different and at different levels of understanding and other things in life.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji messages connect to us differently and at times dramatically differently. So no one is wrong in describing what they experience momentarily or on a life long basis. That is their relationship. What is wrong about it or right about it none of us arm chair psycho-analysts are equipped to comment upon or pass judgment on.

Perhaps the title of this thread is misleading. I have seen no posts so far that do not think the message in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as foundational spiritual and for many also ways of practical living and myth busting. Could the title be: "Describe how and if you experienced hallucinations, something you swear felt real, etc., that was out of this world. Basically along the lines of extreme love, the raag or rendition of the shabad that made you feel in momentary or everlasting ecstacy". We may all give it different names but many of us have pretty visual personalities and such experiences are not uncommon.

Can we insist based on our experiences visual or other that everyone should have them? Can we insist that visual experiences are essential to Sikhi or Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Is it worth the effort to dwell on the subject to teach others or convince others that such experiences are fundamental to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or Sikhi? Does all this prove one understands better than the other or has the right way and the others have wrong ways?

The answer for me to all above is "NO".

Over time perhaps millions have experienced it like Akasha ji, Luckysing ji, Harry Haller ji, Japjisahib04 ji and so on. So let us move on in a helping, sharing and learning mode rather than insisting mode.

May you experience Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji like no one else before and be able to share.

Sat Sri Akal

 

[Admin]

This thread is now closed. If you have something on-topic to say, then please start a new thread by quoting this thread, page or post number in first message itself.

Gurfateh!