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Death is a sorrow but so is birth isn't it ? Jamman-maran is a Dukh!!

Discussion in 'Questions and Answers' started by Seeker2013, Jun 23, 2015.

  1. Seeker2013

    Seeker2013 India
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    I don't know how many 25 yr olds feel in a situation like mine : broke, hurt, wounded, suffering from self-pity , depression, low self-esteem , unemployment , .... It seems like many of them are enjoying their life to the fullest.

    But now that I feel I am seeing what seems like ' life for real' in all its splendid mercilessness and cold apathy , I am as if shaken violently off a dream (or shall I call it a delusion) ,i.e my childhood. How simple life was back then ! school - tuition - sleep . Repeating almost infinitely . How sweet was the ignorance. How sweet was it when everything was brought by father at home , and the remaining journey from home till my mouth of those goodies being crossed by my mom . My parents are the only two angels I know , the only 2 friends , the only two guardian angels, the only 2 people in this world I can call my 'own' , my 'apney' .

    But those days of innocuousness are gone now. Everything's changed. There's no more summer vacations, no more "if you screw it up, your parents will fix it for you" . Tables turned now, but how stupid, how moronic, how insanely foolish of me that I didn't , that I couldn't see it coming . How could I !

    How could I have not seen my father is growing old, that he can't provide for me forever. How could I have not seen my mom grow weary and weak with her health issues. How could I have been so irresponsible as to not realize that if I don't do my s**t on time, It is me who will have to reap it tomorrow.

    Now that I am seeing adulthood in its full splendor of apathy and a cold indifference, I do miss that warmness of parental care although my parents still love me . But even the thought of them leaving me one day (and they will ) brings tears to my eyes. . Life to me ,... MY VERY OWN LIFE to me shows cold indifference , the exact opposite of my parents attitude to me. Sometimes I wonder why they had to be so nice to me.

    But here comes the guru ji in picture. I have never felt it is just a 1430 page 'holy book' . I can just feel it talk to me, as I talk to it, so does it talk to me back. It tells me when I am being stupid, it consoles me when I am troubled, it rebukes me when I am being foolish, even calls me 'crazy' when I behave crazy. Guru Granth sahib talks to me like it talks to any1 who has faith in it , anyone who invokes the divine light in it for guidance.

    NOW, I wonder if reincarnation indeed is true , if Guru granth sahib indeed says the truth, then all the pain , all the emotional and mental agony I have to go through has no end to it , unless I escape from birth-death cycle.

    My very own life today forces me to ask "What art thou doing?". The procrastinator in me asks with a stern warning "You sure you ain't screwing up on this chance of human life?" .

    When I look at a dog, I wonder "Is this my fate somewhere down the line of birth and death cycle?"
    When I look at suffering of any creature , I wonder "What is the point of success in this life if you're gonna end up loosing it all and wiggle like a dog in pain at the end of road one day down the line?"

    But then the skeptic in me kicks in "How do you know SGGS ain't just plain poetry of human creator, albeit exotic and from the 15th century?" , "Maybe the gurus were ordinary people who had too much time on their hands and composed ordinary, rhyming poetry?" , "How do you know its 'dhur di baani' and not human creation?" , "What makes you think its guru talking to you when you ask for a hukamnama , maybe its just coincidence of opening a random page" , "What evidence there of reincarnation, what if this is the only life that there is and you're being an IDIOT not enjoying it and partying the hell out of it ?"

    I feel this tug of war often between two contrasting thought patterns in my head. One part of me asks me to meditate on god , so that I don't have to come to this world of pain again .
    Other part of me questions the validity of what the first part just said .

    Whats the truth ? Do you feel like how I do too ?

    Thanks a ton for reading this long. Dhanvaad jee
     
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  3. chazSingh

    chazSingh United Kingdom
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    I don't know how many 25 yr olds feel in a situation like mine : broke, hurt, wounded, suffering from self-pity , depression, low self-esteem , unemployment , .... It seems like many of them are enjoying their life to the fullest.

    i think i might have gone through something similar....i know quite a few people that did also...when you're down...you see everyone living easy...but truth is...everyone is carrying burden of some sort

    you are contemplating life...your existance...its a blessing if it draws you closer to waheguru...it's a curse if you drop your head and blame the world and drop deeper into darkness...

    Rule of the Game is "you reap what you sow" .... during hard times a lot of people...as did I, blame others...but we already know the rule of the game....we are where we are because of what we have Sown...

    Tell Guru Ji in your heartfelt ardaas...."I accept where I Am....I am here because of what i did"...acknowledge it...let it all out...the things you've done which you know were not right..and ask for waheguru's ji's forgiveness for only Waheguru can wipe your Karmic dirt.

    Then ask for his light to show you the best way forward...and you will start to write a better future for yourself...mentally...because it is all within the mind...in moment of difficulty some crumble, others stand up and look for solutions...what person do you want to be...

    if you can;t find work...ask for voluntary work to as many companies as you can...become pro-active...small steps....don;t think too far ahead...just one small thing at a time that you can do...today...in this present moment...
     
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  4. LSD

    LSD
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    cut it short>>> both janam and maran are NOT the truth.

    Birth, death are both as not real >but there to help soul find TRUTH.

    Truth is permanent>>untouchable>>>ultimate reality >>no beginning>>no end>>>so how can Time Limited BIRTH>DEATH be anywhere near truth ???

    need to understand what kaal is and that time is just part of dimension that we are in>>this dimension is not the whole truth
     
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  5. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    oh quite a few,
    you are going to grow up into a very needy person if you are not careful, it is interesting to see that you have the same attitude to your parents as you have towards Creator, ie, they exist for you, to provide and keep you happy

    its not foolish, its the way your brain thinks, me me me me me

    nope, actually it will be them, for whilst you are frolicking with your new found friends in Canada, they will be getting old with a son thousands of miles away,
    adulthood? you call this adulthood? your still living at home playing with yourself all day and praying to goddy so that you dont have to work in a call centre, you are fed, warm, comfortable. I am sorry my friend, but you are still a child, adulthood does not come with age, it comes with mature and responsible thinking. But dont feel so bad, I still consider myself a child.
    no, that is your own conscience
    sorry this self pity is getting nauseating, what pain? what agony? what about the pain and agony of your parents who have done everything and anything possible to educate and raise you, who are now getting old, ill, dependent, whilst all you talk of is your misery,
    depends on how you define success, to me success is just to be, to you it might mean houses, cars, not working in a call centre, a nice buff canadian,
    so just to recap, if this is the one and only life we have, rather than say help others, it is our duty to have as much fun as possible
    we all feel like you do, its called duality
     
  6. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    brilliant, so what is the truth?
    brilliant, so what is the truth?
    your getting me really excited here, so what is the truth?
    ah damn, ok whats kaal?, and then do share with us what the truth is please!
     
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  7. LSD

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    HArry=brilliant, so what is the truth?
    brilliant, so what is the truth?
    your getting me really excited here, so what is the truth?


    have you even read gurbani???
    Do you even do nitnem??>>>>>what does gurbani tell us about Truth ??
    You really think that you living in denial with some self manufactured version of sikhi you have>>that you are truth yourself???
    Before you even utter the same nonsense>>no, I'm not the truth>>but my efforts and abiaas are taking me closer and closer to the Truth.


    Harry=ah damn, ok whats kaal?, and then do share with us what the truth is please![
    Kaal is the time between that graph wher you have a point of birth and the other point of death.
    Your ignorance of not knowing what or when kaal is mentioned in gurbani makes me doubt your sikhi even more.>>>yet you question my authenticity or if Ihad legit amrit on the other thread??
     
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    #6 LSD, Jun 24, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 24, 2015
  8. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    [
    but err I don't believe in reincarnation, so how is kaal then relevant?
    by the way, I could not care less whether you are baptised or not, I questioned your right to judge other Sikhs
    actually I question your right to judge me, I ask many questions and make many statements in an effort to play devils advocate and so that we can all learn from the answers. Let me be frank, I have always thought of my views as heretical, not mainstream, in fact somewhere on this forum is a post that makes the same point. I am not interested in changing your mind, insulting you, correcting you, or questioning you.

    now I have had to change colour of your posts several times, please refrain from anything resembling an admin colour if you can, thank you
     
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  9. chazSingh

    chazSingh United Kingdom
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    Harry Ji....

    Kaal is relevant...because if it;s the TRUTH then you are part of it.....doesnt matter if you believe in it or not..

    people seems to think if they don;t believe in something..it doesn'y exist....the truth exists regardless of our opinions...our opinions carry no power against what is true.

    question is what is truth and what isn't...that's what the Sikh does...Sikh doesnt stop at just beliefs...sikh goes seeking for it...to know it...to experience it...and won;t stop until the truth is shining bright infront of the sikh.

    is this not true?
     
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  10. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    I don't know I cannot actually make head or tale of it, I asked what kaal is, your telling me its truth?
     
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  11. LSD

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    read gurbani>>>show me the quotes that you don't understand where kaal is referenced>>
    you playing ignorance>>not devils advocate>><<good al pacino n keanu reeves movie though>>
     
  12. LSD

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    don't get confused Chaz>>>kaal is not the truth but just a limited part of truth>>cuz Truth is Ajooni saibahang>>>without birth and death
    but Kaal> is time bound within the age of birth and death
    It's the time that is experienced in this dimension.
    The truth >>in it's completeness can only be experienced outside of kaal>>outside maya>>>which is why gurbani tells us about 4the dimension>chautha pad>>>outside of kaal

    kaal has a BEGINNING an END>>>Truth has neither and is aad jugad >>hai bi sach>>hosi bi sach>>>OR <<forever was and forever shall be>no time frame
     
  13. LSD

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    Mr harry>>>you should probably understand now that jjanam/maran>>birth/death are FaLSE.
    WHY?.>>cuz they define boundary of time>>boundary of kaal
    But TRUTH has no boundary>>no limits.
     
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  14. Sherdil

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    Sat = Objective Truth

    Objective Truth doesn’t need anyone to believe in it for it to be true. It is intrinsically true.

    Sat is derived from the Sanskrit word Sattya = Reality / Existence / Truth

    Existence is Truth because Existence exists regardless of any extrinsic belief in it. There cannot even be any extrinsic belief in Existence because everything exists within Existence. There is nothing extrinsic to it.

    Don’t confuse this with “I” exist and “You” exist. That is duality. Even when “I” die and “You” die, Existence will continue to exist. That is why birth and death are illusory. The dukh associated with them stems from ignorance of the bigger picture. Pronouns cannot define you (I am / Haumai). You are Sat. Sat naam. Sat is your name.

    Everything exists, but not in the way that the mind perceives it. The mind sees the Ocean and says the Ocean exists. The mind sees the Sky and says the Sky exists. But it doesn’t see the sunyata (nothingness) behind it. Sunyata is the absence of duality. In reality, nothing has an intrinsic self. It is void of pronouns. In this void permeates the One. Gurbani describes it as butter permeating milk.
     
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  15. Harry Haller

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    ok, there is something else I need you to be aware of, its proselytizing, this means it is forbidden on this forum to try and convert others to your point of view, so we try and steer clear of definitive statements, or tell others they are wrong, you are not proselytizing, but you are getting close.

    What I would rather you do, is make your points, back them up with proof, or even an explanation, and then folks can make up their own minds. Expect some debate, but that is ok, we can debate like gentlemen, or gentlewomen, and so forth.

    I would imagine you could bring something to the table for this forum, Chazji could do with someone to give him a hand, I would beg of you to start writing, write on any topic you can find, I would love to see your slant on many things, I would love to debate with you, but it is not about point scoring, see it as two gentlemen playing chess. We do not need to be aggressive or rude. I look forward to your opinions, however if they do breach the terms of service of this forum, they will have to be removed or edited.

    I look forward to interesting and informative discourse with you, if I can be of any help or assistance please mail me
     
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  16. Original

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    I agree with you wholly solely, but can we explore a little further ? What is objective truth and what is intrinsically true, by convention or your opinion? Please feel comfortable in discussing because there is a beautiful ring to it re SATNAM. If not, just ignore - many thanks !
     
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  17. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Could you please elaborate the differences among the following "Truths"?

    1. Objective Truth
    2. Subjective Truth
    3. Absolute Truth.
    4. Intrinsically True

    Thanks & regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
  18. Sherdil

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    Objective truth is valid regardless of anyone's belief in it.

    Subjective truth is valid only because someone feels it is true.

    Example: Two people drink the same cup of tea. One person says the tea is sweet. The other person says it is bitter. They have both come up with two subjective truths about the tea. Both interpretations are equally valid, but neither reveals the objective truth about the tea. It is neither bitter, nor is it sweet, and yet it is both depending on whom you ask. The tea just is what it is.

    Objective truth never stops being true. It has always been true and it will always be true. "I" and "You" will one day be no more. That is why "I" and "You" are not objectively true.

    (I exist + You exist) - (I + You) = Exist.

    Existence has always existed, it exists now, and it will always exist. That is why Existence is objective truth. One day the Ocean and Sky will cease to exist. Yet, Existence will continue to exist indefinitely.

    I would use the terms objective, intrinsic and absolute interchangeably in this context.
     
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  19. Tejwant Singh

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    Sherdil ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Could you elaborate that with some examples please?

    I agree. Belief systems are based on Subjective truths. It is based on feelings rather than on something empirical.

    I agree with you about existence but how one defines that can be quite subjective.

    I agree with you about the ocean which means this earth will cease to exist one day which means our conversation about defining things will also cease unless we are able to transport ourselves to another planet before that or other beings from other planets have different definitions for things from their own thought processes. Our dialogue would be mute and so may be the definition of existence as we understand it to be today.

    Please elaborate what you mean by, "Sky will cease to exist".

    Once you elaborate each the above with some tangible examples, then we can further interact on it. Are you referring to Absolute Truth as per Abrahamic religions?

    I enjoy your thought process. It makes me think outside the box and I want to thank you for that.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
  20. Sherdil

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    Ek Oankaar is the only objective truth

    You can attempt to define Existence subjectively, but the validity of such a definition will depend on your belief in it. Like the tea, your subjective interpretation doesn't reveal the truth of what Existence is.

    Existence cannot be defined objectively. The French Philosopher, Rene Descartes, categorically disproved the existence of everything he could think of, but he couldn't disprove that he was thinking. This led to his proclamation "I think therefore I am". He believed his existence was tied to his ability to think, but he failed to take the next step and place doubt upon the "I am".

    Existence therefore can only be experienced. Experience is usually subjective because it is created by the mind. Therefore, we have to silence the mind to have objective experience. This comes back to the Sunn / Sunyata in my first post. When the mind isn't creating a subjective experience, there is Nothing. It is an absence of duality. It is not distinct from the One. It is a part of the One. It is death while still alive.

    When I mentioned the Ocean and Sky, I was trying to highlight the fact that the mind creates an illusion of them being distinct entities. The mind thinks each entity exists in its own right, but both entities are one and the same. In the absence of duality, there is only One.

    Each doesn’t really exist as a distinct entity, because such things are transient. By virtue of them being transient, they are illusory. Only Existence is permanent.
    No. I'm not referring to anything Abrahamic.
     
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  21. Original

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    Sher Dil Ji - many thanks !

    I wanted us to explore sargun n nirgun, that is, subjective n objective. For exploration purposes, let us nit -pick ? Tea for example. What is it, in the context within which you've employed ? Well, by definition it is dried n prepared leaves of a shrub, which for practical means and purposes is consumed as a beverage. Of course, we know the constituent parts are more than just "tea" leaves to make it a beverage. For there is water, milk, sugar, spices and dried leaves. By definition then, tea is a noun [naming words]. Similarly, "nam" within the meaning of Gurbani is that tea which you've referred to above. It is that nam which is interchangeable, shabd, word, dhur ki bani, towards which house of Nanak points and is taken to be an objective truth, only, insofar human intellect to their best endeavours can best express, but in fact, it isn't. For the truth Nanak speaks about is beyond human subjectivity and objectivity, it is both and beyond time n space, Anhad Shabd. It exists independently, says Nanak. We've [scholars] tried explaining, expressing, capturing through the use of language and literature, tried debating n discussing, but fall short. Bhagat Kabir backs it up beautifully:

    Page 340

    ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ ਪੂਰਬੀ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਖਰੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਉ ਕੀ ੴ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਗੁਰਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਛਰ ਲੋਕ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਸਭੁ ਕਛੁ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ ਏ ਅਖਰ ਖਿਰਿ ਜਾਹਿਗੇ ਓਇ ਅਖਰ ਇਨ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 340}

    Nanak accepts "truth" [satyam] as a noun, but goes beyond in admitting it, as an adjective. That is to say, higher than truth is truthful living. Guru Nanak, purely from an argumentative nature of man, nips it in the bud by declaring, "you want to talk or you want to meet satnam ? If the latter, come unto my street [sikh] and play the game of love" [1412 SGGSJ].

    In the field of theory of knowledge [epistemology], we've set-aside belief, as an area exclusively dependent upon "one's" faith, which, the employment and realisation of cannot be determined by empirical observation and rational analysis. Why ? Because the "moment" experienced by Nanak [mystical, at sultanpur lodhi], was beyond time n space and since mind [rational] and the five senses [emperical] cannot transcend time n space knowledge of it cannot be had.

    More another time perhaps, have to get my jogging out of the way. Once again, thank you Sher Dil. Oh, if it be any interest to you, some years back I was privy to confidential information regarding the proceeds of the late Dalip Singh [son of maharana Ranjit Singh].

    Enjoy the day !

    Ik ong kar [good 2 keep those you love close]
     
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