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Das need guidence on this issue from learned

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by vijaydeep Singh, Jan 12, 2005.

  1. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

    First of All Das want to say that these doubts Das is making as often there are something which Das do think to be done in life but find it anti Gurbani so Das does not do it.

    Such doubts are addressed for elderly Sikhs who have long expirence of life as a Sikh(Das is a neo Sikh).So Das begs the guidence from Singhs like Sant Amarpal Singh Ji,Baba Tejwant Singh Ji ,Gyani Jernail Singh among others.

    Say in Sikhism eating Jotha(Leftover of non Sikh) Halal and Tobacco.Das does not use it at all.BUT

    There are few situations how should das act in them,Das here wants to say that so far in such situation Das has been thinking as if any person who is under the influence of honourable Akhand Kirtani Jatha Ji,Das has many brother like freind in that Jatha and Das respect there views(but does not agree to all).As per Das they must be respected as we repect Bhagat Dhanna Ji as they have devotion factor above knowlwdge factor and Devotion as per Das is always bigger then knowledge.

    Coming Back to the problem of Das.Recently Das had a mercy of Akal to think over it.Especilay after reading the book of Sabad Guru by Jathedar Ji of Takhat Patna Sahib Ji,Which state Gurbani is the real Guru Over mind.

    so Situations as follow:-
    Shall Das eat food from the hand of the person who smokes?

    Shall litle bit of accidental inhalingwhile passive smoking can destroy the sprituality?Shall das wash his nose or mouth after unintentionally inhaling smaoke of tobacco or scent of tobbaco or Halal Product ?

    Can non Halal food from the vender who sells Halal food also be eaten?

    do we have to wash our hands after shaking them with the person who is smoking or eating Halal food.

    Say Das has a Hindu Family,If he is eating food on the dineing table with rest of the family,if any hindu member while eating gives curry in spoon(Karchhi) or bread Chapati in plate to be taken or glass of water should I Take it? or is it also Jutha?

    Say Das is eating food in road side vendor(Das job is often outdoor),Say some non Sikh is eating in a plate nearby and he pasess that plate over the plate of das ,Should Das stop eating that food and through it away?

    By mistake say part of food das is to eat touches Halal food or Tobbaco Product or someone using Halal or Tobacco touches the food tobe/been consumed by Das does that food becomes unworthy be be eaten as per Sikhism?

    Das begs for your kind suggestion on such issue.Because das think that he has been acting like a Brahmnaical way inspite of being Sikh for some time and so in recent Past Das has just payed no heeds to many of the situations mentioned above.So if any of it is of any thing amounting for breach of Sikh code then kindly das be informed.
     
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  3. S|kH

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    I'm not learned on this topic myself, but I have a different question to ask which is in relation to your post.

    Are these REALLY taboos for Sikhs?
    I do none of the above (eat halal, or tabacco). But, I have wondered WHY is this a taboo?

    Doing some research on the subject I've come across that it is NOT written in the SGGS that these are taboos. These are all taboos according to rehit namas which were NOT written by the Gurus.

    How much validity can be go across on these rehit namas? The original taboo of "Adultery" was not written as so, it was written that it is "A TABOO FOR A SIKH TO MARRY A MUSLIM WOMEN", and it specifically wrote muslim women, this was because of the on-going wars with Sikhs and Muslims. This was changed later on.

    Also, the Halal meat taboo seems a bit bogus too. I was talking to a Muslim friend of mine, and he said they pray over the meat as a reference of Thanking God, not as a sacrifice FOR God. I originally thought it was a sacrifice FOR God, but if its only Thanking God, than why is it a taboo for Sikhs? Are we not told to Thank God in every moment of our life? Even when we walk the streets and step on insects?

    I've read from before that historically most of the soldiers with Guru Gobind were either Sikhs or Muslims who were later to become Sikhs. Most of the men from Hindu lineage were not the prime fighters during Guru Gobinds era. Also, I have read that the Muslims on the battlefield would eat meat, of course it being halal as they were not Khalsa yet. There are accounts of Sikhs sitting down and eating the meat with them (Khalsas).

    And one can not state that, "Oh if there is nothing else to eat and your on a battlefield ONLY then can you eat meat, other times its better to eat plants because the Guru wished so" ...You make a game then with your own rules. One could easily say the same thing about the kakkars.

    We all know that Guru Nanak said it was foolish to argue about meat, that you should eat what you want, of course controllably.
    So, then why ban certain types of meat? Some say Halal is torture to the animal...it is different now than before, the kill is instant, but the rest of processing is slow. The first blow is to the jugular, and instant kill, n then the slow knife and praying comes over the animal.

    Banning halal is the muslim equivalent of banning pork. It's too dirty or "unholy" for us to eat in. Just sounds like a ritual to me.

    Matter fact, I think this taboo is completely traditional and holds NOTHING with the reality of Sikhism. I think it was created for the due purpose of separating Muslims and Sikhs either doing Langar or other eating parts.
    This of course would cause more rifts between the communities, perhaps exactly what some Sikh leaders wanted? They didnt want their children or community to sit alongside muslims and share the same common meal.

    And as for the Jutha taboo if from non-sikhs is trash. Guru Nanak would not discriminate on the basis of Sikh or Non-Sikh to take a drink or eat if its jutha. He would have ate it if he thought it was fine, non-poisoned and from someone he trusted. Me and friends share meals all the time, drinks, I know they did not purposely poison it. If I were to decline, am I showing them that I am higher than them? Their drinks are not good enough for me?

    As far as the strict taboo against tobbaco, I don't understand this one. It's clearly stated in SGGS not to intoxicate yourself with things. So, why is the taboo explicitly stated only for tobbaco usage and not cocaine, marijuana?
    Guru Nanak was smarter than this, he knew you could intoxicate yourself pretty much using anything, thats why he said just dont do it so you dont lose your mind state, so you can always think fine.

    Taboo against Alcohol, water, coke, and pepsi is all the same thing. Just don't intoxicate yourself over it. A little bit of alochol...oh no, the world's not come to an end.

    People need to learn how to leave their traditional and cultural bias behind.
     
  4. Amarpal

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    Dear Vijaydeep Singh Ji,



    I have studied the questions raise by you. In this post, I give my response to each one of them.



    As Khalsa Panth is knowledge based rational religion, for each one of question, in my response, I will first give the rational and then the answer.



    (i) Shall Das eat food from the hand of the person who smokes?



    Tobacco contains nicotine. When and individual consumes tobacco the nicotine finds way into the blood stream and then diffuses through the membrane that cover the brain to enter it. There it does many things.



    - it latches on to the nicotine receptors in our brain and gives the consumer of tobacco some special feeling of elation.

    - it washes away the natural neurotransmitter which gives we human a feeling of elation. This neurotransmitter (a chemical in fluid form) is a natural part of our brain chemistry and is synthesised within the human systems. The absence of this natural neurotransmitter makes the person totally dependent on nicotine to remain in high spirit or what ever it is (I am not a smoker so cannot say what this feeling is).

    - it increases the number of nicotine receptors in our brain. This way it ever-increasing demand for more and more nicotine to satisfy the increasing number of nicotine receptors in the brain. If nicotine is sufficient quantity is not supplied the individual starts feeling intense discomfort. This is what we call addiction.



    What world is trying to do now, our Guru Sahib had done some 300 year ago. Guru Sahib banned tobacco from the lives of Khalsas. Our tenth Guru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji new that individuals can get addicted to tobacco leading to mental weakness, it also affects health adversely creating physical weakness. Both are not good for any ‘Saint-soldier. We Khalsas, the saint-soldiers have to be mentally and physically strong and tough. This was the rational behind Guru Sahib asking we Khalsas not to consume tobacco and in today’s context not to consume products having nicotine (I am aware of advertisements in India suggesting that the said Panmasala is free from tobacco yet it gives the same satisfaction. I am not sure if it contains nicotine as a chemical, which is the real cause of addiction)



    I see no reason why any one should not eat food coming from the hands of a smoker.



    (ii) Can accidental inhaling of tobacco smoke (passive smoking) destroy the spirituality?



    Spirituality comes from mental purity. Mental purity comes from the nature of thoughts that occupy the individual’s mental faculties. The mind controlled by senses seeks their gratification and so degenerates spiritually. The mind that reflects the light of ‘The Sat’ (wisdom enshrines in the teaching of Gurbani) becomes virtuous and evolves spiritually. Spirituality is an intangible entity (one that cannot be seen or touched of felt through any of the human senses), it is independent of matter i.e. material.



    Accidental passive smoking in no way affects ones spirituality. Yet for our own good we must avoid over dose of it in a civilised manner, to the extent possible.



    (iii) Can non-Halal food from the vender who sells Halal food also be eaten?



    The mix up between the two types is always possible and you have no way to find it out. I suggest such eating-places can be avoided.



    (iv) Do we have to wash our hands after shaking them with the person who smokes or eats Halal food?



    Whenever we eat some thing, in a way, we terminate some life - of a plant or an animal.

    We simply cannot help doing so. Unlike plants, nature has not equipped us to generate our own nourishment from no living material. When we kill an animal for eating, it is any way going to lose its life, why to subject it to prolonged physical suffering as it happens in Halal. In a way this provision in Khalsa Panth is to reduce the cruelty to wards the animals. Cruelty is an attribute of mind and not of body.



    The rational given in point (ii) above applies to this question also.



    I see no reason for any body to wash her or his hand after shaking them with one who smokes or eats Halal food.



    (v) Eating food items that are Jutha.



    We in Khalsa Panth are asked to live on our own honest earning. We are ordained to live on Kirt. Not eating Jutha is to strengthen this attribute so that every one sustains herself or him, it does not allow a Khalsa to live on left-overs. In addition this provision helps in minimising the spread of communicable diseases.



    It is important to understand what Jutha means. Jutha means the saliva on an individual is mixed with the eatable. Serving rice, chapatti or similar item from a dish on the table does not make it Jutha. As long as Saliva of an individual has not touched the eatable it is not Jutha. It applies to the Curry being served by spoon, or some one serving you chapatti even with hand (this is the way these items are served in Langar).



    With love and respect for all.



    Amarpal Singh
     
  5. Amarpal

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    Dear SIkH Ji,

    We in Khalsa Panth have no Taboos. What we have is based on deep delibrations. As you can see from the last post, there is rational behind what we observe; it has scientific basis.

    With love and respect for all.

    Amarpal
     
  6. muslim

    muslim
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    Is Halal Slaughter Scientific ?



    Q. Many times I avoid arguments with my friends. It is not regression but they argue very strange and due to lack of knowledge I am not able to answer them. I feel that they do not have any idea about our customs and they are criticizing our Shariah. They always make a point about Halal meat. They say it is very cruel, that we slaughter very cruelly. Please give some light over this issue. Please also tell why we can eat sea food which they consider is not Halal.

    (Irfan Ahmed Uraizee ; Uraizeei@hotmail.com)

    A.
    We slaughter according to the dictates of Shariah and again we take seafood without slaughtering it with the permission of Shariah. Allah has created all beings and He knows what is best for us. However Islam being ‘Deen-e-Fitrat’ (the religion of nature), we can and we must find out the logic behind such orders that are objected to by others so that we may prove to them the truthfulness of Islamic way.

    In Islamic Shariah, while meat (of permitted animals) is permitted the consumption of blood is prohibited. Your friends who argue with you may themselves not be prepared to consume blood even after being cooked. The Islamic way of slaughter assures that blood gushes out of the animal’s body, while it is retained inside the body of the animal if it is killed abruptly. The consumption of meat of such animals in whose bodies the blood is retained is unhygienic. Consumption of blood is harmful for human beings while meat devoid of blood is wholesome.

    As for charge of cruelty to animals in slaughtering them the Islamic way, it has now been proved scientifically that Halal slaughter is the humane method while western method of killing by stunning inflicts acute pain to the animals. Professor Schultz and Dr. Hazim of the Hanover University, Germany disclosed this after the following experiment. They implanted several electrodes surgically at various points of the skull, just touching the brain of several animals under test. Then some animals were slaughtered by a swift deep incision as desired by Islamic Shariah, cutting the jugular veins and carotid arteries of both sides as also the trachea and oesophagus while others were stunned using a captive bolt pistol as is done in western countries. EEG and ECG were recorded on all the animals under experiment. The experiment amazingly revealed that the animal brain did not feel pain as EEG recorded zero even when the animal’s body was convulsing vigorously, letting out the blood in the Halal method of slaughter. On the other hand EEG showed intense pain immediately after stunning in the western captive bolt stunning method, even though the animals were unconscious.
    Those animals, whose respiratory system is such that they breathe inside and cannot survive outside the water, are Halal. The flow of blood in the bodies of such animals is so minimal that it does not flow out no matter how their bodies are cut. Hence there is no need of slaughtering them to draw the blood out of their bodies.

    big fat lol at amarpal.
     
  7. vijaydeep Singh

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    Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

    Das first Thank Sant Amerpal Singh Ji for guidence and will 'bother' him in future for such queries.As often Das at present dealing with some Sahijdharis as well as true Sikhs who are more after ritualism then understanding Gurbani.

    This is realy good that we have guides like you to guide us.



    Now Das touches the problem raised by Muslim brother,'Well Bro if you want to discuss Halal is sceintific or not then Das tells you to open a new thread in Muslim section of the foreum.This is something totaly what we could say a matter of spritualism veres ritualism.

    It is out of context but when Islamic schollars tend to talk about sceince,Just tell Das that how could say that Sura 2 nd of holy Kuran say that a mohtaj(helpless) can even eat non Halal food.

    In spritual term it may mean that one who find himself/herself helpless in front of Allah(in fact only non Muslim infidal can think that he/she is not helpless) can eat any food.

    It is only a matter of interpetation.Das here only want to say that Akal Allah Prahbraham is much more above the science.As a Sikh we respect Muslims eating Halal.We want a same respect in return for uor Jhatka food.Say you do not give it to us.Say like in Ranjeets Singhs Sikh kingdom Halal was allowed but in Muslims states in medivial India only Halal was allowed.So if same mentality still exist in prersent Day Muslims.

    Say they hate the tendency/feeling of all thoses who do not allow the consumption of Halal.Then they must be ready to the situation in areas where there wits do not run.Say in India,someday if Hindutva people force a Ban on Halal meat then Sikhs infact are not going to side with Muslims as they did not support them.

    .



    Coming on your scence part.Forget about EEG or ECG.When Jhatka is done animal doesnot know of beeing killed.slitting the throat and making animal to die is in human if done for self interest.



    Das here want to tell a strange thing just answer him muslim brother,Say you are fighting a jeehad in Iraq(hypothatically).Say you are cought by a private Army opposeing you.They decide to kill you.Excutionaor are one a Sikh another a Jew. Sikh wants to behead you while Jew wants to slit your throat in a kosher /halal way.Say third option is to deliver you to US Army and they may execute you by electirc chair.Had Das been on your side then he would have choosen to be killed by a Sikh.



    Coming why Halal is forbbidan in us.Well first of all it is working after the theory that blood has the life(Thats what God told Abraham in Taurait when Abraham was to sacrifise his son Ishaq or Ismail(there is a differnce in Muslims and Judeo Christianity oveer it))As God told that to remove life,which is blood since know be spill on ground and thence the animal be killed.This also means that before that Adem or Noaha was using single blow(Jhataka).So even the sacrifise of Lamb was also with Single Jhatka(blow).May be as eyes of Abraham were closed(as per a few sects of Islam) so God just wanted to make sure that in future Sacrifice be made with open eyes as to avoidance of truth in not a bravery.

    But as per Sikhism God is in all.So what is the differnce between blood and flesh so blood be not remvoed nor will be removed the iron and other content usefull for man in blood.It will be a wastage of resources.By the way there are many medicines used by Muslims also which have blood in it.On of the Das's freind has told that even in Tibb(arbic) or Yunani(Greek) system it is alowed to use blood.In fact Sikhs can use tobbaco as a medicine but not as an addiction(Das has seen a homeopathic medicenc called Tobbacum).

    Coming back to historic reason.Like Muslim inaveders of that time.Who had a religeus Sanction to plundeer the enemy,his home ,his family.Mal E Ghanimat(spoil of War) may include female folk(laundis) which can be utilised by victors.Sikhs wanted the same privilages from Guru(Tenth Master) towards Muslims.Guru told them that he has not made Sikhs a Bhoton Ka Panth(way of evil spirits),Sikhs are not supposed to go to lover level.Sikhs have to go high(refer Sau Sakhi(hundred Testomoneis).In Past,In Present,In Future ,Sikhs have to Fight a good number of Battles with Muslims.

    Sikhs have a right to make law if an unprecedented situation comes as Khalsa enjoys the staus of Guru and Guru even tested Sikhs once by going against the tenets of Sikhism and undergoing the Tankha(Punishment).So Guru did not want Sikhs in future to make a law which copies Muslims.



    So eating Halal was forbbiddan(Roti or Kitchen of Muslims subject was to be protected by power abuse by Sikh rulers).No Sikh was allowed to marry a Muslim(Beti or Female folk was protected).In fact as per Islam also it is good forMuslim female to give up Islam if she wants to marry a non Muslim.So it is agurantee of protection to Muslims given to them by Guru.

    In someparts of India where Sikh soldeiers are fightinh insurgents who are Muslims.Often those who carelessly eat Halal may go in for outraging the modesty of Muslim female folk(in Gujrat riots also it was shamefull that some Sikhs sided with hindus and did wrong act,In Gujrat often Sikhs either do not eat meat or may eat Halal especially in the areas where they took part in riots)

    While in areas where Sikhs do not touch Halal or in Depratments or Regiment still surving Jhatka(it was reduced after anti Sikh wave in 1984 and in may places ereplced by Halal).Not a singleinstance of anti Muslim act so far is reported.

    Lastly Das ,when he was Hindu,did eat Halal(his maternal side is non Vegitarian more),It is althopugh easy to store for long but has a stinct since first Day,which is of a sort of melting type .While Jathka is easy to digest and has no smell like that of Halal.

    Das is sure that Muslim Bhai has never eaten Jhatka or pork since now.Or had he eaten he may not have tried to judge it with Halal in many aspects.Same is not true for Das.As Das has tasted and annalyed the both.

    Anyway Das is here more interested reagrding ritualism in Sikhismand not the scentific arguement or explanation been given to justify similar acts in other faiths eg Islam or Hinduism.
     
  8. muslim

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    Lol sorrry but i got lost in all that waffling. No meat these days is done by the method u stated of a swift blow, animals are stunned before killing. As for the islamic way animals loose consciousness straight away and so feel minimal pain. I please ask of you not to go on when replying as you stray away from the point many times and also i get bored so keep it short n relevant.

    Peace from the middle east
     
  9. ksnagra13

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    Is halal scientific?

    the post by muslim is very amusing. Ok, before i start iam going to give you a little introduction into how the scientific world works. Scientists come up with hypothesis and prove whether they are right doing experiments adn then they publish their work. Usually if there work is worthy it is published in a good scientific journal. After that other scientists repeat those experiments and critisize the scientists who did the initially work. If those scientists can live up to the crictisim, then everyone approves of their work.

    Another thing, usually scientists can come up with any conclusion by manipulatig the results, that why other scientists repeat their work to see if it deserves any merit.

    In your case muslim, this study hasn't even been approved of or published in a noteworthy journal. Now muslim you must ask yourself some questions.


    1. if halal was not cruel and inhumane and bettter than stunning (iam not endorsing stunning), then why is it that no government approves of it and further more why they want to ban it all together. THe only reason why they can't ban it is because then religions like your and jews say their discriminating against them.

    2. why is it that so many organizations that fight for animal rights, disapprove of it. Surely if they believed it was better than stunning they would protest adn fight for it. Instead their totally against it. ALso remember that these groups want to help animals, so if they really believed this nonsense they would approve of it.

    3. and lastly muslim, when you go to these websites of yours and ask your fellow muslims if halal is cruel. What do you think their going to say. Yes. Of course not, their going to try to come up with some mumbo jumbo to convice you that its ok.

    One more thing muslim, you should try to keep a open mind and not believe everything your told. Also there is no need to laugh at anyone.

    Sincerely KS
     
  10. vijaydeep Singh

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    Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

    well Das has seen animal getting Halal(Killed in Iaslamic way).And das often does Jhatka himself.

    Well Halal could be unhygenic,DSifficult to digest due to been 'heavy' like shrunken sponge (cake) as muslce or Maass(Meat) is devoide of moisture so it is in unnatrual texture.

    But as it is ordainded by Allah to Muslims.So they must use it.Today if they do not fall in to the trap of infidal(Kafirs) like Das and not let there heart be taken away by Iblis(Satan).They will be rewarded at Qayaymat(Last Day of judegement).

    So Das wants to say that holy Kuran has many thing,till what modern science has not reached.To faithfull(Momin),There is no need to give clarification or Explanation.So brother Muslim ,If you have faith in Allah,That counts and not to argue with Kafirs like Das.

    Coming Back,Das is again interested ,with some other ritualism in prevelent in Sikhs,Which Das want to have a bit more of knowledge.

    Regarding

    Shall we always keep head covered ?

    Is it mandatory to visit Gurudwara daily(espeacilay if it is not in the city) ?

    Is nitnem Path is compulsary done daily especaily if say we are at War or in Trevel ?

    Shall we have always to take Bath first,Then Do Path and then eat,Is it ideally or mandatory ?

    how should we behave with person who trims beraered or is Patit or say Asotosia or Nirankari or Radhswami or from Dera Sachcha Sauda ?

    Say after going to toilet,Is Toilet paper as clean as using water ?

    Das looks forward for reply and brother Muslim kindly open a new thread for Halal matter as we are discussing something related to ritualism or Brahmanism in our Faith and ways to get out of it.

    Das looks forwards for reply from Great Sikhs like Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji ,Sant Amar Pal Singh Ji, Tejwant Singh among others .
     
  11. Amarpal

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    Dear Vijaydeep Singh Ji,



    In this post, I respond to your questions in the same order in which you had asked.



    (i) Shall we always keep our head covered?



    Traditionally, in Punjab, the younger individuals used to cover their heads as a mark of respect to their elders. Guru Sahibs being our elder spiritually, and in many case age wise also, the same respect was shown to them. Today, our Guru is Sri Guru Granth Sahib and so we cover our head within the premises of Gurdwara giving it the same respect. Outside Gurdwara premises, according to my understanding, it is a personal choice. For men it is good to keep their head covered as then only their attire is completed and that is the way the civilised individuals should be. Within the house, in a family environment, covering the head is not essential.



    (ii) Is it mandatory to visit Gurdwara daily?



    In the premise of Gurdwara the environment is that of devotion and spirituality. This environment provides the synergy to the individual to evolve in these two attributes. Such environment is not there in market place. In addition, visit to Gurdwara allows the individual to benefit from Satsang, this way the individual who visits Gurdwara naturally get helped to evolve. More the individual frequents Gurdwara; larger is the benefit to her or him.



    No attachment is good. If for some reason an individual is not able to visit Gurdwara, she or he should not feel guilty. At the same time visiting Gurdwara should not become a ritual. The visit should be used to meditate on the Shabad i.e. what is said in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, to incorporate its teachings in ones life and to evolve spiritually on the path to divinity.



    Visiting Gurdwara is not mandatory, it is desired.



    (iii) Is it compulsory to do Nitnem Paath daily?



    As the name suggest it is supposed to be done daily. Again this too should not become a ritual. Doing this Paath is not an end itself. It is only a tool to evolve in spirituality. One has to understand what is said in the Paath and incorporate in one’s life. It takes some time before the essence of what is said in this Paath percolate deep into the being of the individual, repetition helps; it is for this reason it is said that one should do it daily. Once the individual has assimilated the teachings into her or his being the need of the Paath disappears, because this evolved individual is now an expression of what is said in the Paath; her or his life is in accordance with Nitnem.



    As no attachment is good, if for some reason the individual is not able to do Nitnem, she or he should not feel guilty.



    Nitnem is necessary, but not in absolute sense. It depends on the individual’s level of evolution on the path of spirituality.



    (iv) Shall we always have to take Bath first, then do Paath, then eat? Is it ideal or mandatory?



    Essence of Paath is in mental concentration and emphasis on its understanding. If this is not achieved, it become a mechanical recitation, it becomes a ritual. So all that is necessary to concentrate and understand its meaning should be done.



    If one is hungry, better to eat something so that one can concentrate. At the same time do not eat too much which makes it difficult for the individual to sit.



    It is good to be clean when doing Paath, taking bath helps; it improves the blood circulation and freshens up the individual, allowing her of him to concentrate. But if one is having fever or is living in a very cold environment, not taking bath before sitting to do Paath, in my view, is not an offence against ‘The Sat’. Taking bath is civilised way of living.



    Before doing Paath, bathing is desirable, but not essential, doing Paath with empty stomach is not a requirement at all.



    (v) How should we behave with a person who trims his beard?



    In civilised democratic society no one should impose ones views on others; this is the way to live with freedom in a very harmonious way. To uphold this value in society, our 9th Guru Sahib gave his life; we should never forget it.



    We should treat individuals who trim their beard with love and consideration. No hatred or contempt should be shown towards them. Like any one of us, each one of the human being is a sovereign individual and her or his individuality should be respected even when we disagree with her or him.



    This is my considered view.



    (vi) Say after going to toilet, is ‘Toilet Paper’ as clean as water?



    This is a matter of personal hygiene and the practice prevailing where one lives. Use of water is definitely more hygienic than the ‘Toilet Paper’. However, it no way affects ones evolution on the spiritual path.



    With this I close



    With love and respect for all.



    Amarpal Singh



     
  12. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

    Akal bless you Sahib Amerpal Singh Ji,

    Das is also putting a few more doubts

    How can a Sikh marray a non Sikh? Is her/his conversion to Sikhism is must ?


    If some lady is raped,What should be our attitude towars her ?

    Some people say idealy Sikh must eat in iron bowl/vesslle only?

    What is the logic behind some Sikhs supporting applying water on genital after urinating(like Muslims apply mud) ? Is not it a ritualism?
    Sometime often in the house of Sikh,non Sikh people tend to smoke or eat tobbaco,by mistake or even after knowing that we do notsupport tobbaco?
    How should we react in such cases?As Das often react badly?

    Often in the kitchen of some of the non Sikh relatives of Das,Halal meat is cooked or say If das goes to a party of Muslims freinds,Can Das eat veg food from there ?
     
  13. Amarpal

    Amarpal
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    Dear Vijaydeep Singh Ji,

    One marries a non Sikh the same way as one marries a Sikh. Relation between different sexes existed before religions came into being. Marriage is an institution to allow what is not to be allowed outside it. This is the need of the society for social order and for continuation of human form. I donot consider conversion as a necessity because it is only external; it is a ritual. Sikhi needs to be understood and internalised into one's being. As the two live together ,over a period of time, it will naturally come if one of the two who have married is a Gurmukh, the other will follow.

    With love and respect for all.

    Amarpal Singh
     
  14. Amarpal

    Amarpal
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    Dear Vijaydeep Singh Ji,

    If a woman is raped, problem is with we men and not with the women. We must respect that woman as if nothing has happen. Even word of simpathy, may recall to her mind the traumatic experience which the lady has gone through. This way it will leave deeper scar in her mind. We should respect her, give her the dignity that any woman deserve and ensure that none in our family are brought up with male arrogance that leads to rape. The lady has done nothing wrong. Rape is a shame on we men.

    The time when only iron and copper was being used by society, it was alright to eat from iron bowl. This has nothing to do with spirituality. as society has advances, there is nothing wrong in eating using ware that are clean, no matter what material they are made of.

    Washing with water is form the consideration of hygiene. I do not see any spirituality in it. Remaining clean is a trait of civilised society.

    If some one wants to smoke in a Sikhs residence, she or he has to be told politely not to do so. in my office for more than 25 years I have a small slip pasted on the white board behind me which reads 'Your smoking is injurious to our health too. Thank you for not smoking'. No one ever smoked in my office.

    My muslim freind, when they invite us to parties, they cook vegeterian food in a separate kitchen, or order them from a vegetarian hotel. How ever, we do not eat halal meat as it prolongs the suffering of the animal. It is this act that we want to avoid; yet we eat fish. In my opinion one should uphold the respect for all form of lives and live according to what one's conscience says. If by mistake some time one eats halal meat, one should not feel guilty. Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not ask if the meat came from halal or otherwise, when he was offered non-veg meal by one of his devotee (refer History of Sikhs by Dr Gopal Singh Ji). One should hold to the essence of the virtue i.e. respect for all form of lives, when it comes to its detail implementation some adjustment are needed as we live in this pluralistic world.

    With love and respect for all.

    Amarpal Singh
     
  15. Harry Rakhraj

    Harry Rakhraj
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    I feel the thread has been stretched as far as it would go. Anymore and it will break. For goodness' sake, this is NOT Sikhi that is being discussed here! Sikhi is to do with spiritual beings who also have a physical body and not the other way around. Let's try not to reduce Sikhi to a collection of some inane do's-&-dont's.
     
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  16. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Harry Rakhraj ji

    I agree with your statement that Sikhi is not a collection of do's and don'ts. Unfortunately some group of adherents of almost every religion I know of have a tendency to reduce the spiritual content to that very thing. Respected forum member Amarpal ji did his best to restore common sense, balance and practical instinct to the discussion, as he always has done and as is consistent with Sikh philosophy and Guru Nanak's own sense of reason.

    I went back and re-read the entire thread. The thread starter at the time was converting to Sikhi. For new Sikhs these questions are always extra important. Partly because they notice the divide between the spiritual content of Sikhism, and the tendency of some of their associates to stress outward signs and behaviors. Someone needs to build the bride between inner and outer life for them. Amarpal was attempting that. Today I think the thread starter has managed to resolve his questions in his own way -- as he writes to me on a frequent basis. One person in the discussion was attempting a flame war but people ignored him.

    This is an old thread. What happens often is this. When no more can be said, then a discussion falls to the bottom of the forum. The debate is forgotten. This was 2005, the date of the last post prior to your own. That is why the thread is not closed, and yet it seems to be simmering. Threads just have a life-cycle.

    I do not know if someone else will have more to add. Forgive my lengthy reply.
     
  17. Harry Rakhraj

    Harry Rakhraj
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    Narayanjot Kaur ji,
    Having read your missive to me, I now realize exactly where I was coming from when I penned that post.

    I come from a family of very staunch Sikhs, expats at that. You will appreciate that identity assumes a bigger than life role when you are in a minority. As you probably know, I am a sehajdhari Sikh. The act of shearing off your head, per se, does not amount to a big deal, much less conversion. But for my family,in those days, it was something even worse. The ensuing ostracism and pile up that followed took a long long time to heal. Heal it did but with scars. It's these very scars that sometimes press the buttons to do things like what I did today.

    The post was not very objective, I now realize. And I am feeling somewhat foolish about it. But I learn everyday. A Sikh learns, that's his dharma.

    I really do appreciate you taking time out to write to me.

    Gurfateh.

    Harry Rakhraj




     
  18. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Harry Rakhraj ji

    I don't see your post as foolish at all! Your questions are legitimate. This is a debate that affects the panth from many directions. Fundamental question is "Who is a Sikh?" and there is no pat answer. That is why threads like these do not die out.
     

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