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Dancing and Gurbani

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by BhagatSingh, Dec 16, 2008.

?

(Read the main post first) Would you "dance" to kirtan? Explain.

  1. Yes...

    7 vote(s)
    15.6%
  2. No...

    34 vote(s)
    75.6%
  3. I don't listen to kirtan...

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Not sure...

    5 vote(s)
    11.1%
  1. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    Hi guys,
    Recently I have been talking to a Singh and he asked me if I would dance to gurbani kirtan. At first, I thought NO that would be disrespect. But then I remembered that sometimes I would be so fixated on the kirtan that I would start to move with it. I would be lost in it to the point I wouldn't care what I was doing. It would feel natural to just move with it.
    Then I thought about it as I talked to him. Since we sing Gurbani, which is a form of self expression, why not dance? Which is another form of expression. Both a gift from God. Both used to express love. Why not dance for God, I thought?

    He said he doesn't like the dance because he wants to concentrate on something different, which makes sense. The gurbani would then create these shockwaves inside him.
    I replied in agreement but added that sometimes those shockwaves would be so intense [for me] that you just can't help but move with it.

    I want to know what you guys think. Give your sincere and honest opinions. BTW dance could mean any type of movement, I guess.

    Thanks
    Bhagat Singh
     
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  3. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

    I can show you two video clips which show people dancing to the tune of gurbani.
    One blue belter sangat who do arti with a lamp-lit in a thaal and another a
    namdhari mastana dance. I voted NO to dancing.

    :D
     
  4. Archived_Member5

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    re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

    Americanisation of tribal dances to hymns from the bible are greatly off putting and far removed from the nature of prayer. To create a deep meditational silence and allow spiritual awakening. A quiet contemplation yields positive introspection. Dancing to Kirtan is not what Sikhism is about. There are some aspects of modernism best avoided. We reserve our dancing mania for the bhangra halls at birthday bashes and wedding receptions. It is best this way.
     
  5. pk70

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    re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

    When I hear Kirtan, I feel soothing effect that actually helps to still the mind, dancing cannot be done if the mind sets for stilling. Many time the head starts moving up and down while sitting and listening to Kirtan.
     
  6. Archived_Member4

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    re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

    You mean you reserve the dance mania for the excess of energy in the body. Mind is still the controller and the arms go up and down or however people dance these days; the movement made in accordance to the sound of maya.
     
  7. BhagatSingh

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    re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

    it seems clear that you guys think that dancing is some sort of maniac act.
    ever heard of slow dancing?
    Ever heard of just moving? barely dancing....

    keyword: movement

    i didn't mean dancing like HARDCORE bhangra, maybe I wan't clear enough on that
     
  8. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

    there you go, that would be considered dancing. why? because in fact there is movement of the body. A little bit more movement maybe of the hands and would probably be considered dancing by others too.

    Again, not HARDCORE bhangra, just moving with the kirtan.
     
  9. pk70

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    re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

    That also shows a complete involvement in Kirtan, senses are focused, outer distraction dies completely; however, it has nothing to do with"dancing taken as in popular term" What you are stating about movements, surprisingly they occur only if a complete attention is in Kirtan:)
     
  10. BhagatSingh

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    re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

    Yes! I mentioned that in the main post. ..shockwaves too intense... movement created... :D
     
  11. Archived_Member4

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    re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

    By your question you imply God does everything then Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji should not have fought the Mughul army because God was killing the Hindus and Sikh. Your question leads no where and proves nothing.

    Gurbani is never maya. Your mind might see it this way for whatever reason, but the Shabad Guru is purely the Truth. This doesn't even have to be discussed any person that reads Gurbani can see clearly, that Guru ji never calls Gurbani maya.

    Here's a Hukamnama from Dec. 12/08.

    SORAT’H, NINTH MEHL:

    That man, who in the midst of pain, does not feel pain, who is not affected by pleasure, affection or fear, and who looks alike upon gold and dust; || 1 || Pause || Who is not swayed by either slander or praise, nor affected by greed, attachment or pride; who remains unaffected by joy and sorrow, honor and dishonor; || 1 || who renounces all hopes and desires and remains desireless in the world; who is not touched by sexual desire or anger — within his heart, God dwells. || 2 || That man, blessed by Guru’s Grace, understands this way. O Nanak, he merges with the Lord of the Universe, like water with water. || 3 || 11 || ang 633

    Here Guru ji is telling us not to be affected by pain or pleasure. Keep the mind still. But what do some want to do they want to dance because they are happy; someone get's married, sons birth day etc. But when God takes the son away what happens, they cry in agony for taking what they thought was their's. All these emoitions that change a person behaviour are taking a person further way from the Lord. The mind dances and the body is the puppet. Conquer the mind, and conquer the world. Does this line not come in japji Sahib. How many people actually read it! What have you conquered when you dance to sounds of maya!

    Gurbani stills the mind and keeps it in a relaxed state where it is not affect by pain or pleasure. Single mindly read Gurbani and you'll understand what I am saying otherwise I know your answers, its sometimes i feel pain or pleasure and this is because your mind has drifted some where esle and is not still.

    Whenever I listen to Gurbani, I have no desire to dance because my mind is still; its focused on the Lord. Whenever I listen to Kirtan my head sways side to side because it is adored into the shabad and the rest of my body does not move it's still, neither does my mind drift. Please understand the subtle part of the mind not drifting before replying to this post.

    MAAJH, THIRD MEHL: The Lord of the Universe is radiant, and radiant are His
    soul-swans. Their minds and their speech are immaculate; they are my hope and ideal. Their minds are radiant, and their faces are always beautiful; they meditate on the most radiant Naam, the Name of the Lord. || 1 || I am a sacrifice, my soul is a sacrifice, to those who sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord of the Universe. So chant Gobind, Gobind, the Lord of the Universe, day and night; sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord Gobind, through the Word of His Shabad. || 1 || Pause || Sing of the Lord Gobind with intuitive ease, in the Fear of the Guru; you shall become radiant, and the filth of egotism shall depart. Remain in bliss forever, and perform devotional worship, day and night. Hear and sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord
    Gobind. || 2 || Channel your dancing mind in devotional worship, and through the Word of the Guru.s Shabad, merge your mind with the Supreme Mind. Let your true and perfect tune be the subjugation of your love of Maya, and let yourself dance to the Shabad. || 3 || People shout out loud and move their bodies, but if they are emotionally attached to Maya, then the Messenger of Death shall hunt them down. Ang 121

    The love of Maya makes this mind dance, and the deceit within makes people suffer in pain. || 4 || When the Lord inspires one to become Gurmukh, and perform devotional worship, then his body and mind are attuned to His Love with intuitive ease. The Word of His Bani vibrates, and the Word of His Shabad resounds, for the Gurmukh whose devotional worship is accepted. || 5 || One may beat upon and play all sorts of instruments, but no one will listen, and no one will enshrine it in the mind. For the sake of Maya, they set the stage and dance, but they are in love with duality, and they obtain only sorrow. || 6 || Those whose inner beings are attached to the Lord.s Love are liberated. They control their sexual desires, and their lifestyle is the self-discipline of Truth. Through the Word of the Guru.s Shabad, they meditate forever on the Lord. This devotional worship is pleasing to the Lord. || 7 || To live as Gurmukh is devotional worship, throughout the four ages. This devotional worship is not obtained by any other means. O Nanak, the Naam, the Name of the Lord, is obtained only through devotion to the Guru. So focus your consciousness on the Guru.s Feet. || 8 || 20 || 21 || ang 122

    The Gurbani in bold sounds familiar to what one witnesses at receptions, bhangra bashes etc.

    Also the shabad in bold could be talking to Muslims because I have seen some Muslims dancing and clapping there hands when hymns are sung; saw it on tv.
     
  12. pk70

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    re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani


    Bhagat Singh ji, let me give you following Guru Vakas to ponder over; metaphors “disease” and “doctor” are used in context of Maya influence that sickens the soul by disabling it to walk on virtuous path suggested by Guru, doctor is used for a true Guru who cures that disease. “Poison is used to counter poison” doesn’t apply here in this context because it is a metaphoric use not a factual use. What is the use of dancing to the tune of Gurbani if it is not understood or it is considered Gurbani a wall? So it is not going away from your topic. The dance we agreed on, needs that attention, if Gurbani is not believed, this dancing become high quality of hypocrisy:yes:
    ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ
    Salok mėhlā 1.
    Shalok, First Mehl:

    ਵੈਦੁ ਬੁਲਾਇਆ ਵੈਦਗੀ ਪਕੜਿ ਢੰਢੋਲੇ ਬਾਂਹ
    vaiḏ bulā▫i▫ā vaiḏgī pakaṛ dẖandẖole bāʼnh.
    The physician was called in; he touched my arm and felt my pulse.

    ਭੋਲਾ ਵੈਦੁ ਜਾਣਈ ਕਰਕ ਕਲੇਜੇ ਮਾਹਿ
    Bẖolā vaiḏ na jāṇ▫ī karak kaleje māhi. ||1||
    The foolish physician did not know that the pain was in the mind. ||1||
    ( Hint is at those who claim to cure without knowing the diagnoses, in spiritual field, stillness of mind doesn’t come by obtaining Maya filled goals but to consider them as of no importance and pursue the Lord in His love, who do this are considered unbalanced in this world but in fact these are the ones who live in that eternal happiness and the others fall into miseries of ups and down created by Maya)
    The second Guru Vakas clears what is disease and when it is cured what happens within then. It will itself clarify the metaphors at the end

    Mėhlā 2.
    Second Mehl:

    ਵੈਦਾ ਵੈਦੁ ਸੁਵੈਦੁ ਤੂ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਰੋਗੁ ਪਛਾਣੁ
    vaiḏā vaiḏ suvaiḏ ṯū pahilāʼn rog pacẖẖāṇ.
    O physician, you are a competent physician, if you first diagnose the disease.
    ਐਸਾ ਦਾਰੂ ਲੋੜਿ ਲਹੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਵੰਞੈ ਰੋਗਾ ਘਾਣਿ
    Aisā ḏārū loṛ lahu jiṯ vañai rogā gẖāṇ.
    Prescribe such a remedy, by which all sorts of illnesses may be cured.
    ਜਿਤੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਰੋਗ ਉਠਿਅਹਿ ਤਨਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਵਸੈ ਆਇ
    Jiṯ ḏārū rog uṯẖi▫ah ṯan sukẖ vasai ā▫e.
    Administer that medicine, which will cure the disease, and allow peace to come and dwell in the body.
    ਰੋਗੁ ਗਵਾਇਹਿ ਆਪਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਵੈਦੁ ਸਦਾਇ
    Rog gavā▫ihi āpṇā ṯa Nānak vaiḏ saḏā▫e. ||2||
    Only when you are rid of your own disease, O Nanak, will you be known as a physician. ||2||
     
  13. spnadmin

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    re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

    Actually the comments are not that far off topic. Looking at the first post, the thread starter, the idea is that we are so moved emotionally and spiritually by Kirtan that we move. Somehow we move because we are moved. Makes sense to move because one is moved.

    The problem lies in becoming a kookay -- dancing around in a heightened state of frenzy which is not consistent with faith in One God, nirgun nirankaar, no idolatry.

    Also, the rehat maryada forbids playing kirtan to popular tunes thereby veering away from the original raag compositions.

    This is very temperate stuff. Not like some other religions. There is no message that dancing is evil -- only the message of right action.

    THINGS GOT WORSE IN THE DAYS THAT FOLLOWED :}:)
     
    #12 spnadmin, Dec 17, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2008
  14. pk70

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    Moved from Dancing With Gurbani

    Any thing that taints your love (if you have) for the Lord and triggers duality in mind (longing for the Lord and at the same time longing for other worldly things/humans to have honor or respect/enjoyment etc), it could be a relation, pleasures, wealth, you name it. Lord’s love should remain intact from any kind of effect on the soul regardless the environment the one is in. Who have realized Him, are not worried what others say, and they remain immaculate in wealth, honor, joyful moments or suffering. That state of mind is beyond expression as per Gurbani and also known as being liberated while alive. The people who are deep into worldly play, look at them as eccentric etc. Most of us just long for it, during walking on it, often fall due to Maya influence we fail to overcome.
    Most of the time we say it is not good for the soul but deep down influence of it, keeps us in it. Bhagat Singh ji, going on this path of beyond Maya is like a goal of an athlete, a scholar or like seeking an expertise. A complete hard work is required on it otherwise; it ends up in mere talks.:)
    ਰੰਗੀ ਰੰਗੀ ਭਾਤੀ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਜਿਨਸੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ
    Rangī rangī bẖāṯī kar kar jinsī mā▫i▫ā jin upā▫ī.
    God, who fashioned the world, has by diverse contrivances created the creation of various colours and Kinds.

    ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਕੀਤਾ ਆਪਣਾ ਜਿਵ ਤਿਸ ਦੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥ (JapJi)
    Kar kar vekẖai kīṯā āpṇā jiv ṯis ḏī vadi▫ā▫ī.
    Having created the creation, He as it pleases His Honour, beholds His handiwork.



     
    #13 pk70, Dec 17, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  15. Archived_Member5

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    Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

    Maya is an excessive attachment and dependence upon materialism and worldliness, the physical world. It does not mean man must not strive to be the richest in his world but that his priority, methodology, and will must always be spiritual liberation with his maker. The hard-line zealots who retain Maya as being anyone able to climb out of reliance upon the prevailing forces of evil, and to be economically liberated is as always slightly sickening and expounded by the every ones unlikely to accomplish such a freedom.

    Maya is addiction to the physical, to wealth, wine and paap. An inextricable inability to free oneself from the overwhelming need for such earthly addictions casting man into a hell of blind wilfulness and matter sup receding reason and conscience. Maya is all the sins or paaps combined.


    One who enjoys working hard and find great rewards and pleasure in doing so is not embroiled in Maya. One who craves and schemes for worldly glories by any means is undeniably a paapi and addict of Maya..Dependency, addiction, blind attachment to the physical lower realm detrimental to ones spiritual progress and freedom.
     
  16. pk70

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    Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani


    Jeetijohal ji
    No offence, kindly do not redefine Maya, it should be taken as Guru has used in their Message. Ponder over the following Guru Vakas, read below the dictionary meanings of those who wrote about it after thoroughly studying Sree Guru Granth Sahib ji. Hope you will avoid judging me this time; instead, will try to understand what I am saying here in concept of Maya because I feel; we are no one to redefine Maya which is well expressed in Gurbani.
    ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹਣੀ ਸੁਤ ਬੰਧਪ ਘਰ ਨਾਰਿ
    Ŧarisnā mā▫i▫ā mohī su banḏẖap gar nār.
    The enticing desire for Maya leads people to become emotionally attached to their children, relatives, households and spouses.(when they become hindrance in love of the Lord)
    ਮਃ 1
    ਮਾਇਆ ਜਾਲੁ ਪਸਾਰਿਆ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਚੋਗ ਬਣਾਇ
    Mā▫i▫ā jāl pasāri▫ā bīar cog baā▫e.
    Maya has spread out her net, and in it, she has placed the bait.
    ਮਃ 5
    ਇਹੁ ਸਰੀਰੁ ਮਾਇਆ ਕਾ ਪੁਤਲਾ ਵਿਚਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਦੁਸਟੀ ਪਾਈ
    Ih sarīr mā▫i▫ā kā pulā vic ha▫umai ustī pā▫ī.
    This body is the puppet of Maya. The evil of egotism is within it.
    ਮਃ 3
    ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਉਥਾ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇ
    Ŧarai gu mā▫i▫ā moh hai gurmuk ca▫uthā pa pā▫e.
    The three qualities hold people in attachment to Maya. The Gurmukh attains the fourth state of higher consciousness.
    ਮਃ 3
    SGGS Dictionary
    1) ਭੁਲੇਖਾ, ਭ੍ਰਮ, ਅਵਿਦਿਆ, ਅਗਿਆਨਤਾ (2) ਧਨ, ਦੌਲਤ (3) ਮਾਤਾ (4) ਹੇ ਮਾਂ ! ਹੇ ਮਾਤਾ (5) ਭਲਾਉਣ/ਭਰਮ ਉਪਜਾਉਣ ਵਾਲੀ ਸ਼ਕਤੀ (6) ਸਰੀਰਕ ਭਾਵ ਦੁਨਿਆਵੀ
    2) . Māyā, the world and its entanglements.
    SGGS Gurmukhi-English Data provided by Harjinder Singh Gill, Santa Monica, CA, USA
    3) . strach, farina; goddess of wealth, Lakshmi; wealth, riches, money, mammon,; illusionary or illusory world of senses, material world; illusion, illusory phenomena (applicable inSGGSJI)
    Thanks.
     
  17. Archived_Member5

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    Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

    PK70 - Your Bani offering reiterates precisely what I have said. Kindly desist from jumping the gun each time I post. It is annoying. Your interpretation is based upon your personal criterion to suit your agenda, desist or allow others to follow suit in kind. Any distortions of Bani are met with rigorous retaliation and rebuttal. The senseless need of certain Sikh zealots to ensure Sikhs remain poor and struggling sicken me.
     
  18. pk70

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    Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

    Reread your own post. You are taking exceptions, there is no exception as per Guru ji. I have not interpreted Gurbani, so being habitual, stop accusing me of these things. What you have said is your own choices, Guru doesn't give such choices. I haven't read in any where the meaning of Maya you are redefining... I am not jumping on your post, only rebuttling the views I see are based on your own philosophy that has nothing to do with Gurbani, at least avoid redefining where Guru ji is very clear. Do not threat me, as you are expressing your views, so I am I.
     
  19. Archived_Member5

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    Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

    I repeat Sikh zealotry distorting the term Maya to suppress fellow Sikhs mainly by a denied envy, in prospering sicken me. As the state of Punjab is milked and exploited by its enemies falls to the enemy within who also exploits the bitter wrangling internally by so called vocal and extremist Sikhs have near destroyed the homeland and seek to keep it oppressed, whilst pandering if not selling their meagre souls for a pittance to any power willing to pay for such wretched protagonists willing to devour their own for glory and profit. How the empire of Punjab was lost in times of yore is not entirely forgotten by some.

    Loud ignoramuses will be the main cause of the death of religion. Who needs atheists with such ignorant persons in the midst of a truth seeking fraternity, when the task is so well accomplished by the same said...
     
  20. pk70

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    Re: Dancing In Tune With Gurbani

    When personal views are questioned in context of Guru Message, blames are thrown to satisfy personal ego. How Sikh kingdom was lost, History is very clear. It cannot be defined on assumptions. So jeetijohal jio, if given meaning before or after your post are not acceptable to you, it is not any body’s fault. Just get over it and stop blaming others. I have nothing against you, I will never have but to accept some ones own new definition is hard to swallow specially if it doesn’t align with the Gurbani.. Distortion of Gurbani issue was brought two times even when there is no interpretation done by me. If it is, kindly elaborate on that instead of blaming. :)
     
  21. Astroboy

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