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Cremation of old and torn apart Gutkaa

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Pyramid, Mar 20, 2008.

  1. Pyramid

    Pyramid
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    Cremation of old and torn apart Gutkaas and Baba Ji's Bir Sahib

    As new sikhs and sikhs born and raised abroad, sometimes it sounds very strange hearing about the cremation of old and torn apart Gutkaas and Baba Ji's Bir Sahib. It happens mostly due to cultural differences about respect and regards. Some people out of ignorance even make a mockery of this practice and start telling that Sikhs cremate Nirankaar.



    It is done simply to give respect to a body where Guru resides. Physical body is not Guru- Guru is Nirankaar. Bani is Nirankaar, Present everywhere. By limiting Guru to a physical body is a big misunderstanding. Gur Parmesar Nahi Bhed. Guru/God/Bani has uncountable forms-Gur Gur Eko Ves Anaik. We simply pay respect to a body(made of paper and ink) where Guru is residing.


    Guru Nirankaar is Waheguru, present everywhere not limited to any physical object.
    Sharing following Shabads:


    ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
    ik oankaar sath naam karathaa purakh nirabho niravair akaal moorath ajoonee saibhan gur prasaadh ||
    One Universal Creator God. Truth Is The Name. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying. Beyond Birth. Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace:

    ਸਾਰਗ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
    saarag mehalaa 5 ||
    Saarang, Fifth Mehl:


    ਪੋਥੀ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਕਾ ਥਾਨੁ ॥
    pothhee paramaesar kaa thhaan ||
    This Holy Book is the home of the Transcendent Lord God.


    ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਗੁਣ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    saadhhasang gaavehi gun gobindh pooran breham giaan ||1|| rehaao ||
    Whoever sings the Glorious Praises of the Lord of the Universe in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, has the perfect knowledge of God. ||1||Pause||


    ਸਾਧਿਕ ਸਿਧ ਸਗਲ ਮੁਨਿ ਲੋਚਹਿ ਬਿਰਲੇ ਲਾਗੈ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥
    saadhhik sidhh sagal mun lochehi biralae laagai dhhiaan ||
    The Siddhas and seekers and all the silent sages long for the Lord, but those who meditate on Him are rare.


    ਜਿਸਹਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੁ ਹੋਇ ਮੇਰਾ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਪੂਰਨ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਕਾਮੁ ॥੧॥
    jisehi kirapaal hoe maeraa suaamee pooran thaa ko kaam ||1||
    That person, unto whom my Lord and Master is merciful - all his tasks are perfectly accomplished. ||1||


    ਜਾ ਕੈ ਰਿਦੈ ਵਸੈ ਭੈ ਭੰਜਨੁ ਤਿਸੁ ਜਾਨੈ ਸਗਲ ਜਹਾਨੁ ॥
    jaa kai ridhai vasai bhai bhanjan this jaanai sagal jehaan ||
    One whose heart is filled with the Lord, the Destroyer of fear, knows the whole world.


    ਖਿਨੁ ਪਲੁ ਬਿਸਰੁ ਨਹੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਕਰਤੇ ਇਹੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਮਾਂਗੈ ਦਾਨੁ ॥੨॥੯੦॥੧੧੩॥
    khin pal bisar nehee maerae karathae eihu naanak maangai dhaan ||2||90||113||
    May I never forget You, even for an instant, O my Creator Lord; Nanak begs for this blessing. ||2||90||113||




    ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
    ik oankaar sathigur prasaadh ||
    One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:


    ਪਾਤੀ ਤੋਰੈ ਮਾਲਿਨੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥
    paathee thorai maalinee paathee paathee jeeo ||
    You tear off the leaves, O gardener, but in each and every leaf, there is life.


    ਜਿਸੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਕਉ ਪਾਤੀ ਤੋਰੈ ਸੋ ਪਾਹਨ ਨਿਰਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
    jis paahan ko paathee thorai so paahan nirajeeo ||1||
    That stone idol, for which you tear off those leaves - that stone idol is lifeless. ||1||


    ਭੂਲੀ ਮਾਲਨੀ ਹੈ ਏਉ ॥
    bhoolee maalanee hai eaeo ||
    In this, you are mistaken, O gardener.


    ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜਾਗਤਾ ਹੈ ਦੇਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    sathigur jaagathaa hai dhaeo ||1|| rehaao ||
    The True Guru is the Living Lord. ||1||Pause||


    ਨਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਭਰਮੁ ਨ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਦੂਜਾ ॥
    naa kishh bharam n dhubidhhaa dhoojaa ||
    He has no doubt, double-mindedness or duality at all.


    ਏਕੋ ਏਕੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਪੂਜਾ ॥
    eaeko eaek niranjan poojaa ||
    He worships and adores the One Immaculate Lord alone.




    ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥
    aasaa mehalaa 4 ||
    Aasaa, Fourth Mehl:


    ਜਿਨ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਜਨ ਸੁਘੜ ਸਿਆਣੇ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਜੇ ॥
    jin anthar har har preeth hai thae jan sugharr siaanae raam raajae ||
    Those whose hearts are filled with the love of the Lord, Har, Har, are the wisest and most clever people, O Lord King.


    ਜੇ ਬਾਹਰਹੁ ਭੁਲਿ ਚੁਕਿ ਬੋਲਦੇ ਭੀ ਖਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਣੇ ॥
    jae baaharahu bhul chuk boladhae bhee kharae har bhaanae ||
    Even if they misspeak outwardly, they are still very pleasing to the Lord.


    ਹਰਿ ਸੰਤਾ ਨੋ ਹੋਰੁ ਥਾਉ ਨਾਹੀ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਣੁ ਨਿਮਾਣੇ ॥
    har santhaa no hor thhaao naahee har maan nimaanae ||
    The Lord's Saints have no other place. The Lord is the honor of the dishonored.


    ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੀਬਾਣੁ ਹੈ ਹਰਿ ਤਾਣੁ ਸਤਾਣੇ ॥੧॥
    jan naanak naam dheebaan hai har thaan sathaanae ||1||
    The Naam, the Name of the Lord, is the Royal Court for servant Nanak; the Lord's power is his only power. ||1||


    ਜਿਥੈ ਜਾਇ ਬਹੈ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸੋ ਥਾਨੁ ਸੁਹਾਵਾ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਜੇ ॥
    jithhai jaae behai maeraa sathiguroo so thhaan suhaavaa raam raajae ||
    Wherever my True Guru goes and sits, that place is beautiful, O Lord King.


    ਗੁਰਸਿਖਂ​*ੀ ਸੋ ਥਾਨੁ ਭਾਲਿਆ ਲੈ ਧੂਰਿ ਮੁਖਿ ਲਾਵਾ ॥
    gurasikhanaee so thhaan bhaaliaa lai dhhoor mukh laavaa ||
    The Guru's Sikhs seek out that place; they take the dust and apply it to their faces.


    ਗੁਰਸਿਖਾ ਕੀ ਘਾਲ ਥਾਇ ਪਈ ਜਿਨ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵਾ ॥
    gurasikhaa kee ghaal thhaae pee jin har naam dhhiaavaa ||
    The works of the Guru's Sikhs, who meditate on the Lord's Name, are approved.


    ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਜਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਹਰਿ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਾਵਾ ॥੨॥
    jinh naanak sathigur poojiaa thin har pooj karaavaa ||2||
    Those who worship the True Guru, O Nanak - the Lord causes them to be worshipped in turn. ||2||


    ਗੁਰਸਿਖਾ ਮਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਹੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਹਰਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਜੇ ॥
    gurasikhaa man har preeth hai har naam har thaeree raam raajae ||
    The Guru's Sikh keeps the Love of the Lord, and the Name of the Lord, in his mind. He loves You, O Lord, O Lord King.

    ਕਰਿ ਸੇਵਹਿ ਪੂਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਭੁਖ ਜਾਇ ਲਹਿ ਮੇਰੀ ॥
    kar saevehi pooraa sathiguroo bhukh jaae lehi maeree ||
    He serves the Perfect True Guru, and his hunger and self-conceit are eliminated.


    ਗੁਰਸਿਖਾ ਕੀ ਭੁਖ ਸਭ ਗਈ ਤਿਨ ਪਿਛੈ ਹੋਰ ਖਾਇ ਘਨੇਰੀ ॥
    gurasikhaa kee bhukh sabh gee thin pishhai hor khaae ghanaeree ||
    The hunger of the Gursikh is totally eliminated; indeed, many others are satisfied through them.


    ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਬੀਜਿਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਤੋਟਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਹਰਿ ਪੁੰਨ ਕੇਰੀ ॥੩॥
    jan naanak har punn beejiaa fir thott n aavai har punn kaeree ||3||
    Servant Nanak has planted the Seed of the Lord's Goodness; this Goodness of the Lord shall never be exhausted. ||3||


    ਗੁਰਸਿਖਾ ਮਨਿ ਵਾਧਾਈਆ ਜਿਨ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਡਿਠਾ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਜੇ ॥
    gurasikhaa man vaadhhaaeeaa jin maeraa sathiguroo ddithaa raam raajae ||
    The minds of the Gursikhs rejoice, because they have seen my True Guru, O Lord King.


    ਕੋਈ ਕਰਿ ਗਲ ਸੁਣਾਵੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਸੋ ਲਗੈ ਗੁਰਸਿਖਾ ਮਨਿ ਮਿਠਾ ॥
    koee kar gal sunaavai har naam kee so lagai gurasikhaa man mithaa ||
    If someone recites to them the story of the Lord's Name, it seems so sweet to the mind of those Gursikhs.


    ਹਰਿ ਦਰਗਹ ਗੁਰਸਿਖ ਪੈਨਾਈਅਹਿ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਤੁਠਾ ॥
    har dharageh gurasikh painaaeeahi jinhaa maeraa sathigur thuthaa ||
    The Gursikhs are robed in honor in the Court of the Lord; my True Guru is very pleased with them.


    ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹੋਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਵੁਠਾ ॥੪॥੧੨॥੧੯॥
    jan naanak har har hoeiaa har har man vuthaa ||4||12||19||
    Servant Nanak has become the Lord, Har, Har; the Lord, Har, Har, abides within his mind. ||4||12||19||

    We are humans, live in a social setup and we have a natural tendency to follow certain ways to pay respects to our elders and our guides- Spiritual or non spiritual. Sikhs have found this practice for their Guru, which is God Himself. Gur Gur Eko Ves Anaik:). They dont throw old Bir Sahib Ji or old Gutkaas in the Garbage, they respect that thaanv which shared Gurbani with them. They pay good respects to Gurdwaras as well, as these are the places where they Place Baba Ji's Bir and get together to listen to Gurparsaad-GurShabad.

    I shared with the sangat what I have.
    Good Bey and Good Luck
    Guru Nanak is always with us



    Tuhada Das
    Papi Yograj
     
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  3. Archived_Member1

    Archived_Member1
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    thanks for sharing this. the cremation of gutkas or other materials with written gurbani was something i did not understand when i first started to learn about sikhism. now it makes more sense, but it's good that you have explained it because it's true that a lot of us born in the west are not aware of the practice.

    in my husbands family, this also extends to any paper goods on which gurbani is written... wedding cards, pamphlets, journals, etc.


    interesting side note... in the Jewish tradition, they bury their old/used scriptures in tombs, the same as they do with the dead. they show a lot of similarities in their respect for scriptures... including wrapping their scripture in clean cloths when not in use. they also believe that the word of God IS God. :) just something i found interesting. :)
     
  4. spnadmin

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    I too find this interesting. Especially that your husband's family extends this practice to anything with Gurbani written on it.

    In fact -- I had been wondering about this because the Gurbani are not merely feel-good sayings with an innspirational twist. There is real power in Gurbani, and holiness in every line. An excellent conversation here.
     
  5. Archived_Member1

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    how i came across this knowledge is actually an interesting and inspirational story...

    one of my husband's uncles used to not only recite his morning banis, but write them down, every day. after a while, he started copying the entire SGGS, by hand, into journals. he hand copied it many times during his life. in this way he memorized nearly all of SGGS.

    when he passed away, he had an entire library filled with hand written volumes containing gurbani. the family decided the most respectful thing to do was to cremate the journals along with his mortal body.
     
  6. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    This is amazing! And that uncle is the kind of person I hope to meet sometime in my life.
     
  7. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    amazing bhen jasleen kaur jio..
    but if i had achoice..i would have kept those journals....becasue Gurbani is everlasting. Just because his mortal body died...was no reason to cremate perfectly good journals.
    My dad used to do the same thing... we still have his journals/plus his experiences etc written down for us to share among ourselves..what a treasure would have been lost if we had burnt them when he died in 1982...

    Gyani jarnail Singh
     
  8. singhbj

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    Waheguru ji ka khalsa
    Waheguru ji ki fateh

    Cremation of old & torn Gutka Sahib, Pothi Sahib, Guru Sahib jeeo Swaroop is the right thing to do.

    On the other hand if for any reason you can't do seva or provide due respect to new or in good shape Gutka Sahib, Pothi Sahib, Guru Sahib jeeo Swaroop then please surrender them to the nearest Gurudwara Sahib.

    Thank you ji.

    Waheguru ji ka khalsa
    Waheguru ji ki fateh
     
  9. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
    Dear all!

    Ignorant call the printed book Nirankaar (without any form). The book has a form (akaar) though. Their all rituals around the book are also strange.
    All printed books have a fate. Those get old and torn apart. Bringing those into recycling is a good respect to nature and Sarguna Lord.

    The poster of this thread is Pyramid. His signature is papi Yograj. He writes "Guru Nirankaar is Waheguru, present everywhere not limited to any physical object." Strange, he limits Parmaesar then to 'this holy book' providing wrong translation.
    poQI prmysr kw Qwnu ]
    poQI prmysr kw Qwnu ]
    pothee parmaysar kaa thaan. SGGS 1226-3
    This Holy Book is the home of the Transcendent Lord God.

    May I ask why 'pothee' means 'this holy book'?

    It is interesting that the word 'pothee' occurs ten times in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee. Please read yourself what Gurdev is saying about 'pothee'.
    poQI pMifq gIq kivq kvqy BI jwsI ]
    poQI pNifq gIq kivq kvqy BI jwsI ]
    pothee pandit geet kavit kavtay bhee jaasee. SGGS Ang 1100-16

    May I ask why the translator has not translated the word 'pothee' everywhere 'this holy book'?

    **************

    Please do not mislead others even if ignorance has convinced some.

    Better come to experience the Wisdom of the Sabad Guru.


    Balbir Singh
     
  10. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    Precisely Balbir Singh Ji,

    ਕਬੀਰ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੈ ਜਉ ਸਿਖਾ ਮਹਿ ਚੂਕ
    कबीर साचा सतिगुरु किआ करै जउ सिखा महि चूक ॥
    Kabīr sācẖā saṯgur ki­ā karai ja­o sikẖā meh cẖūk.
    Kabeer, what can the True Guru do, when His Sikhs are at fault?

    ਅੰਧੇ ਏਕ ਲਾਗਈ ਜਿਉ ਬਾਂਸੁ ਬਜਾਈਐ ਫੂਕ ॥੧੫੮॥
    अंधे एक न लागई जिउ बांसु बजाईऐ फूक ॥१५८॥
    Anḏẖė ėk na lāg­ī ji­o bāʼns bajā­ī­ai fūk. ||158||
    The blind do not take in any of His Teachings; it is as useless as blowing into bamboo. ||158||
     
  11. Randip Singh

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    I'm a horder afraid to say.

    Anybooks journals, Gutka's on Sikhi stay in my study. hehe :)
     
  12. Archived_Member1

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    using gurbani to insult other posters is still insulting us. why is this allowed? why can you call us "at fault" and "blind" because we follow maryada?

    do you not think Guru Granth Sahib ji is deserving of respect?


    baanee guroo guroo hai baanee vich baanee anmrith saarae ||
    The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Ambrosial Nectar is contained.


    gur naanak naanak har soe ||4||7||9||
    Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||

    gur paramaesar eaeko jaan ||
    Know that the Guru and the Transcendent Lord are One.


    Bani Guru Guru hai Bani, Gur Parmesar eko jaan. the equation is simple.
    Bani = Guru = Waheguru


    even a "blind" moorakh like me can see it.
     
  13. Archived_Member1

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    no one calls a book nirankaar. we call BANI nirankaar. we treat the vessel that contains the Bani with respect. it is not ritual or worship.



    please heed your own advice.
     
  14. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    Balbir Singh Ji,

    Pyramid Ji, in his original post deliberately left out these verses - I wonder why. Possibly Kabir Sahib did not speak in his favour - he should however accept Gurbani in its entire shabad.

    Verses left out :-

    ਪਾਖਾਨ ਗਢਿ ਕੈ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਕੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਦੇ ਕੈ ਛਾਤੀ ਪਾਉ
    पाखान गढि कै मूरति कीन्ही दे कै छाती पाउ ॥
    Pākẖān gadẖ kai mūraṯ kīnĥī ḏė kai cẖẖāṯī pā­o.
    The sculptor carves the stone and fashions it into an idol, placing his feet upon its chest.

    ਜੇ ਏਹ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਸਾਚੀ ਹੈ ਤਉ ਗੜ੍ਹਣਹਾਰੇ ਖਾਉ ॥੩॥
    जे एह मूरति साची है तउ गड़्हणहारे खाउ ॥३॥
    Jė ėh mūraṯ sācẖī hai ṯa­o gaṛĥaṇhārė kẖā­o. ||3||
    If this stone god was true, it would devour the sculptor for this! ||3||

    ਭਾਤੁ ਪਹਿਤਿ ਅਰੁ ਲਾਪਸੀ ਕਰਕਰਾ ਕਾਸਾਰੁ
    भातु पहिति अरु लापसी करकरा कासारु ॥
    Bẖāṯ pahiṯ ar lāpsī karkarā kāsār.
    Rice and beans, candies, cakes and cookies -

    ਭੋਗਨਹਾਰੇ ਭੋਗਿਆ ਇਸੁ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਕੇ ਮੁਖ ਛਾਰੁ ॥੪॥
    भोगनहारे भोगिआ इसु मूरति के मुख छारु ॥४॥
    Bẖoganhārė bẖogi­ā is mūraṯ kė mukẖ cẖẖār. ||4||
    the priest enjoys these, while he puts ashes into the mouth of the idol. ||4||

    ਮਾਲਿਨਿ ਭੂਲੀ ਜਗੁ ਭੁਲਾਨਾ ਹਮ ਭੁਲਾਨੇ ਨਾਹਿ
    मालिनि भूली जगु भुलाना हम भुलाने नाहि ॥
    Mālin bẖūlī jag bẖulānā ham bẖulānė nāhi.
    The gardener is mistaken, and the world is mistaken, but I am not mistaken.

    ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਹਮ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਖੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇ ॥੫॥੧॥੧੪॥
    कहु कबीर हम राम राखे क्रिपा करि हरि राइ ॥५॥१॥१४॥
    Kaho Kabīr ham rām rākẖė kirpā kar har rā­ė. ||5||1||14||
    Says Kabeer, the Lord preserves me; the Lord, my King, has showered His Blessings upon me. ||5||1||14||
     
  15. Archived_Member1

    Archived_Member1
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    are you comparing Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, our 11th Guru, to a stone idol???:eek:

    not what i would expect from a moderator, nor are your allegations against another member.

    debate the topic, not the person.
     
  16. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    Jasleen Ji,

    I would naturally expect Pyramid Ji to reply to that. And also wanted to know what our seasoned player Balbir Singh Ji's comments are. What you've mentioned isn't quite accurately relevant but if you wish to maintain that notion of yours, what can I do? I'm still eager to get more feedback from everyone. Btw, when I posted the "empty bamboo" verse, I didn't view it as an insult to Pyramid Ji until you made me see it 'your way'. What can I say ?
     
  17. Archived_member2

    Archived_member2
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    One can suggest people possessing and respecting a book about mangoes. That book may clearly explain from where and how to receive mangoes.
    It is an absolute disgrace trying to convince others to be satisfied owning the book. All rituals around that book would only divert one away from the Truth.

    When will people eat spiritual mangoes?
     
  18. Archived_Member1

    Archived_Member1
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    now you're comparing SGGS ji to MANGOES?

    i cannot have this conversation. this is absurd.
     

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