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Creator Is Self-Created

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by daggeroftruth, Nov 22, 2008.

  1. daggeroftruth

    daggeroftruth
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    peace to all the rightly guided onese, dear friends, i have a question and i find it very very nesecery to discover the answer for hoping someone here will be able to claerify my understanding about following lines from Guru Granth Sahib:

    eykw mweI jugiq ivAweI iqin cyly prvwxu ] (7-2, jpu, mÚ 1)
    aykaa maa-ee jugat vi-aa-ee tin chaylay parvaan.
    The One Divine Mother conceived and gave birth to the three deities.
    ieku sMswrI ieku BMfwrI ieku lwey dIbwxu ] (7-2, jpu, mÚ 1)
    ik sansaaree ik bhandaaree ik laa-ay deebaan.
    One, the Creator of the World; One, the Sustainer; and One, the Destroyer.
    as i being muslim have always believed that in the religion of sikism the Creator was self created and He has no mother father of family but He is unique like we believe in Islam.
    But contemplating on Guru Granth sahib i came across these lines and it made me confused so, can someone please please explain to me the true meanings of above lines. Thank u so much.
    Peace to all the rightly guided ones.
    may The True God Almighty Alwise unite us His creatures under the banner of utmost truth.
    ps; look forward hearing from wise people here. thank u. ur brother in humanity Daggeroftruth.
     
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  3. spnadmin

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    daggeroftruth ji

    Do not worry yourself. These verses, and there are other equally confusing verses as well throughout our Holy Granth, have caused more than one controversy on this forum as well as in other places. This is my humble and meager effort to explain.

    Guru Nanak Dev ji began his understanding with this mantra, with an unequivocal and firm belief that there is one and only one God.

    ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
    ikoankaar sathnaam karathaa purakh nirabho niravair akaal moorath ajoonee saibhan gurprasaadh||
    One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth.Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace~


    There is one God, the creator and the doer of everything, Beyond Birth with no father or mother, Self Created. That is it, and nothing is different. The mool mantar above is the beginning of the Guru Granth Sahib and is the framework in which everything else in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj must be understood. God who is self created without father or mother never incarnates, and therefore is neither male nor female.

    So what is this all about? The One Divine Mother conceived and gave birth to the three deities.

    Guru Nanak was moving spiritual understanding of his day to a different level -- there is one God beyond birth and death. He was re-explaining a religious concept that was more ancient than Hinduism or Islam, harking back to one of the earliest beliefs, that of the "sanatam dharma" or awareness of the eternal truth of dharma (the truth of the laws of the universe).

    Dharma was and is early and persistent understanding in India, Tibet, China, Japan, Southeast Asia, Ceylon and among Farsees in Persia for thousands of years. This idea 'dharma" did not go away. But how Dharma is explained changes and differs from belief system to belief system.

    The One Divine Mother who conceived and gave birth to three is not a human mother but instead she is the Universe itself, the world, material reality, the cosmos, the universe of material reality. She gave birth to a creator, a sustainer, a destroyer. Notice that the creative force is sansaaree -- this means the creative forces or energies of nature. Same with the destroyer and the sustainer. They are all forces or energies, the natural laws that explain the workings of the universe. They are not incarnations or human forms. Dharma "the wheel of the universe" is the truthfulness of these natural laws. Dharma is represented in everything that exists.

    Guru Nanak did not ignore these ideas. He was speaking to people 500 years ago who understood the forces of the natural universe in this way, in terms of the "wheel" of dharma. He was teaching them using ideas that were familiar to them.

    So what did he change? He is saying that there is something beyond the forces and energies that the Mother set into motion. Because this One god is the Creator of Everything, he is greater than His Creation. He is the creator, the destroyer and sustainer, and His laws are the laws that rule the universe, but He is also greater than all of that.

    This is what Sikhism believes.


    ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਹਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਈਐ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰੁ ਬੇਅੰਤੁ ॥
    keemath kehan n jaaeeai paramaesur baeanth ||
    His Value cannot be evaluated. The Transcendent Lord is endless. (And 137)

    Those who walk on His path

    ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਬਹੁ ਸੋਭ ਖੰਡ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡਾ ਹੇ ॥੩॥
    abinaasee purakh paaeiaa paramaesar bahu sobh khandd brehamanddaa hae ||3||
    They have obtained the Imperishable Supreme Being, the Transcendent Lord God, and they obtain great honor throughout all the worlds and realms. ||3|| (Ang 13)

    Guru Nanak was taking understanding of God to another level. God, the Satguru, Akaal Purakh(u) is dharma itself, and He is greater than dharma. He is found in every part of the natural and universal order. He is the creator, destroyer, sustainer of the natural order, and He is greater than all of that.

    Forgive me.
     
  4. pk70

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    Re: Creator is self created

    Daggeroftruth Ji
    You do not need to be confused because Guru Nanak is very much clear about the Creator to be eternal and beyond assumed concepts. If you read the whole Shabad, you see how Guru Nanak bows to the Infinite, then calls Him pure, indestructible and to be eternal. About what you feel confused is not his views but prevailed views at his time; however, Guru Nanak responses to it beautifully. Lets start with the beginning
    ਆਦੇਸੁ ਤਿਸੈ ਆਦੇਸੁ
    Āḏes ṯisai āḏes.
    Obeisance, my obeisance is unto that Lord.

    ਆਦਿ ਅਨੀਲੁ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਅਨਾਹਤਿ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸੁ ੨੯
    Āḏ anīl anāḏ anāhaṯ jug jug eko ves. ||29||
    He is primal, pure sans beginning, indestructible and of the same one vesture through all the ages.


    . After that Guru Nanak expresses the prevail concept of the Godਏਕਾ ਮਾਈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਵਿਆਈ ਤਿਨਿ ਚੇਲੇ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ
    Ėkā mā▫ī jugaṯ vi▫ā▫ī ṯin cẖele parvāṇ.
    The unique Mother (Master) formulating a plan of propagation installed three approved disciples.

    ਇਕੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੀ ਇਕੁ ਭੰਡਾਰੀ ਇਕੁ ਲਾਏ ਦੀਬਾਣੁ
    Ik sansārī ik bẖandārī ik lā▫e ḏībāṇ.
    One the world's creator (Brahma), one steward who gives sustenance (Vishnu) and one who has the disposition of destroying (Shiva).


    After this expression about prevailed concept of Lord(given above), Guru Nanak inserts his own views about the Lord clearing all doubts about this presumed concept

    ਜਿਵ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਵੈ ਚਲਾਵੈ ਜਿਵ ਹੋਵੈ ਫੁਰਮਾਣੁ
    Jiv ṯis bẖāvai ṯivai cẖalāvai jiv hovai furmāṇ.
    As it pleases Him and as is His order, He makes them walk( means make them live).

    ਓਹੁ ਵੇਖੈ ਓਨਾ ਨਦਰਿ ਆਵੈ ਬਹੁਤਾ ਏਹੁ ਵਿਡਾਣੁ
    Oh vekẖai onā naḏar na āvai bahuṯā ehu vidāṇ.
    He beholds them but they see Him not. This is the greatest wonder. ( How then any one can assume about HIM?)


    Due to my schedule, I cannot go in further detail but I will if you want after November 29.


    Aad0002 Ji has also explained well what Guru Nanak has expressed his views about the God, that clears the remaining doubts.
    Thanks for asking though
     
  5. spnadmin

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    Re: Creator is self created

    pk70 ji

    Thank you for your insights. You are right. It is hard to do, but you have to read and re-read the Granth Sahib in so many places and in so many verses to put the confusing verses into a context. Then it does clear doubts.
     
  6. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    Here's is a shabad in Sri Guru Granth Sahib that touches on the three dieties :-

    ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਪੁਰੀ ਮਹਿ ਸਰਪਰ ਮਰਣਾ
    इंद्र पुरी महि सरपर मरणा ॥
    Inḏar purī mėh sarpar marṇā.
    In the Realm of Indra, death is sure and certain.

    ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪੁਰੀ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਰਹਣਾ
    ब्रहम पुरी निहचलु नही रहणा ॥
    Barahm purī nihcẖal nahī rahṇā.
    The Realm of Brahma shall not remain permanent.

    ਸਿਵ ਪੁਰੀ ਕਾ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਕਾਲਾ
    सिव पुरी का होइगा काला ॥
    Siv purī kā ho▫igā kālā.
    The Realm of Shiva shall also perish.

    ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਬਿਨਸਿ ਬਿਤਾਲਾ ॥੨॥
    त्रै गुण माइआ बिनसि बिताला ॥२॥
    Ŧarai guṇ mā▫i▫ā binas biṯālā. ||2||
    The three dispositions, Maya and the demons shall vanish. ||2||

    ਗਿਰਿ ਤਰ ਧਰਣਿ ਗਗਨ ਅਰੁ ਤਾਰੇ
    गिरि तर धरणि गगन अरु तारे ॥
    Gir ṯar ḏẖaraṇ gagan ar ṯāre.
    The mountains, the trees, the earth, the sky and the stars;

    ਰਵਿ ਸਸਿ ਪਵਣੁ ਪਾਵਕੁ ਨੀਰਾਰੇ
    रवि ससि पवणु पावकु नीरारे ॥
    Rav sas pavaṇ pāvak nīrāre.
    the sun, the moon, the wind, water and fire;

    ਦਿਨਸੁ ਰੈਣਿ ਬਰਤ ਅਰੁ ਭੇਦਾ
    दिनसु रैणि बरत अरु भेदा ॥
    Ḏinas raiṇ baraṯ ar bẖeḏā.
    day and night, fasting days and their determination;

    ਸਾਸਤ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬਿਨਸਹਿਗੇ ਬੇਦਾ ॥੩॥
    सासत सिम्रिति बिनसहिगे बेदा ॥३॥
    Sāsaṯ simriṯ binashige beḏā. ||3||
    the Shaastras, the Simritees and the Vedas shall pass away. ||3||

    ਤੀਰਥ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਪੋਥੀ
    तीरथ देव देहुरा पोथी ॥
    Ŧirath ḏev ḏehurā pothī.
    The sacred shrines of pilgrimage, gods, temples and holy books;

    ਮਾਲਾ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਸੋਚ ਪਾਕ ਹੋਤੀ
    माला तिलकु सोच पाक होती ॥
    Mālā ṯilak socẖ pāk hoṯī.
    rosaries, ceremonial tilak marks on the forehead, meditative people, the pure, and the performers of burnt offerings;

    ਧੋਤੀ ਡੰਡਉਤਿ ਪਰਸਾਦਨ ਭੋਗਾ
    धोती डंडउति परसादन भोगा ॥
    Ḏẖoṯī dand▫uṯ parsāḏan bẖogā.
    wearing loin cloths, bowing in reverence and the enjoyment of sacred foods -

    ਗਵਨੁ ਕਰੈਗੋ ਸਗਲੋ ਲੋਗਾ ॥੪॥
    गवनु करैगो सगलो लोगा ॥४॥
    Gavan karaigo saglo logā. ||4||
    all these, and all people, shall pass away. ||4||

    ਜਾਤਿ ਵਰਨ ਤੁਰਕ ਅਰੁ ਹਿੰਦੂ
    जाति वरन तुरक अरु हिंदू ॥
    Jāṯ varan ṯurak ar hinḏū.
    Social classes, races, Muslims and Hindus;

    ਪਸੁ ਪੰਖੀ ਅਨਿਕ ਜੋਨਿ ਜਿੰਦੂ
    पसु पंखी अनिक जोनि जिंदू ॥
    Pas pankẖī anik jon jinḏū.
    beasts, birds and the many varieties of beings and creatures;

    ਸਗਲ ਪਾਸਾਰੁ ਦੀਸੈ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ
    सगल पासारु दीसै पासारा ॥
    Sagal pāsār ḏīsai pāsārā.
    the entire world and the visible universe -

    ਬਿਨਸਿ ਜਾਇਗੋ ਸਗਲ ਆਕਾਰਾ ॥੫॥
    बिनसि जाइगो सगल आकारा ॥५॥
    Binas jā▫igo sagal ākārā. ||5||
    all forms of existence shall pass away. ||5||
     
    #5 Astroboy, Nov 22, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  7. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    Ekamai can be said to be a coarser vibration from which the physical, causal and mind realm spring up. In another words, it is the duality which was created by God Himself. And this coarser vibration is impermanent and not everlasting. It is subject to dissolution and disintegration.

    He willed, and lo, all the universe sprang up - Muslims call it Kun fi Kun.
     
  8. spnadmin

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    namjap ji

    Thank you for your vichaar. I was wondered where you were headed with the shabad. :)
     
  9. spnadmin

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    Re: Creator is self created

    daggeroftruthji

    I just wanted to add one thing. The reference by Guru Nanak to Mother, in the verse,

    eykw mweI jugiq ivAweI iqin cyly prvwxu ] (7-2, jpu, mÚ 1)
    aykaa maa-ee jugat vi-aa-ee tin chaylay parvaan.
    The One Divine Mother conceived and gave birth to the three deities.

    That is most likely an idea spoken of in the Rig Veda, the oldest Aryan (early Indic) scripture, as a reference to the goddess Aditi (meaning limitless) who was considered the mother of the cosmos as understood at that time. Important -- Aditi represents divine wisdom. Among her children according to the Rig Veda was Varuna or Rta (meaning the moral order in the cosmos). Rta is also the Sanskrit root word for dharma. Guru Nanak had read and studied all the Vedas, including the Rig Veda. It is likely that he is speaking of the image of Aditi as a symbol of unlimited divine wisdom, who gave birth to the Rta moral order in the universe. Divine Wisdom gives birth to Moral Order in the Cosmos.
     
  10. daggeroftruth

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    Re: Creator is self created

    aadooo2 ji, thank u very much for reply and explaination, its good the way u clarified my confusion, may Allah reward u the best. One more question, are there other books that explain the understanding of Granth saahib? if yes then plz let me know thank you very much. oh! and another question, what is the meaning of Granth Saahib? plz answer my 2 questions. bahoth mehrbaani. thahnai vaad.:)
    i find it amazing that so many parts/shabads of the Grant Saahib reminds me of verses and surahs of the Holy Quran, here i post few for ur members to see the similarity. i hope and pray to Allah swt that many will bennefit from these holy verses. ameen.
    ps: the word is>> kunn faya koon= be and it is.
    may Allah= aikonkara unite us His creatures on the ulimate truth.
    plz 4give 4any mistakes.
    1- The Key (Al-Fatiha)
    [1:1] In the name of GOD, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
    [1:2] Praise be to GOD, Lord of the universe.
    [1:3] Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
    [1:4] Master of the Day of Judgment.
    [1:5] You alone we worship; You alone we ask for help.
    [1:6] Guide us in the right path:
    [1:7] the path of those whom You blessed; not of those who have deserved wrath, nor of the strayers.
    81- The Rolling (Al-Takweer
    In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
    [81:1] When the sun is rolled.
    [81:2] The stars are crashed into each other.
    [81:3] The mountains are wiped out.
    [81:4] The reproduction is halted.
    [81:5] The beasts are summoned.
    [81:6] The oceans are set aflame.
    [81:7] The souls are restored to their bodies.
    [81:8] The girl who was buried alive is asked:
    [81:9] For what crime was she killed?
    [81:10] The records are made known.
    [81:11] The heaven is removed.
    [81:12] Hell is ignited.
    [81:13] Paradise is presented.
    [81:14] Every soul will know everything it brought.
    [81:15] I solemnly swear by the galaxies.
    [81:16] Precisely running in their orbits.
    [81:17] By the night as it falls.
    [81:18] And the morn as it breathes.
    [81:19] This is the utterance of an honorable messenger.
    [81:20] Authorized by the Possessor of the Throne, fully supported.
    [81:21] He shall be obeyed and trusted.
    [81:22] Your friend (Rashad) is not crazy.
    [81:23] He saw him at the high horizon.
    [81:24] He is not holding back any news.
    [81:25] It is not the talk of a rejected devil.
    [81:26] Now then, where will you go?
    [81:27] This is a message for all the people.
    [81:28] For those who wish to go straight.
    [81:29] Whatever you will is in accordance with the will of GOD, Lord of the universe.
    82- The Shattering (Al-Infitaar)
    In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
    [82:1] When the heaven is shattered.
    [82:2] The planets are scattered.
    [82:3] The oceans are exploded.
    [82:4] The graves are opened.
    [82:5] Every soul will find out what caused it to advance, and what caused it to regress.
    [82:6] O you human being, what diverted you from your Lord Most Honorable?
    [82:7] The One who created you, designed you, and perfected you.
    [82:8] In whatever design He chose, He constructed it.
    [82:9] Indeed, you disbelieve in the religion.
    [82:10] Oblivious to the fact that there are (invisible) keepers around you.
    [82:11] They are honest recorders.
    [82:12] They record everything you do.
    [82:13] Surely, the pious have deserved bliss.
    [82:14] While the wicked have deserved Hell.
    [82:15] Will incur it on the Day of Judgment.
    [82:16] They never leave it.
    [82:17] Awesome is the Day of Judgment.
    [82:18] What a day; the Day of Judgment!
    [82:19] That is the day when no soul can help another soul, and all decisions, on that day, will belong to GOD.
     
  11. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    Wow!

    This looks very familiar. I'm trying to look for the exact similarity from Sri Guru Granth Sahib (SGGS).
     
  12. Astroboy

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    Page 724, Line 6
    ਜਿਨਿ ਪੈਦਾਇਸਿ ਤੂ ਕੀਆ ਸੋਈ ਦੇਇ ਆਧਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
    जिनि पैदाइसि तू कीआ सोई देइ आधारु ॥१॥
    Jin paiḏā▫is ṯū kī▫ā so▫ī ḏe▫e āḏẖār. ||1||
    He who created you, will also give you nourishment. ||1||
    Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]
     
    #11 Astroboy, Nov 23, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  13. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    An exact similarity comes from Benti Chaupai :

    ਤੁਮਹਿ ਛਾਡਿ ਕੋਈ ਅਵਰ ਨ ਧਯਾਊਂ ॥ ਜੋ ਬਰ ਚਹੋਂ ਸੁ ਤੁਮਤੇ ਪਾਊਂ ॥
    तुमहि छाडि कोई अवर न धयाऊं ॥ जो बर चहों सु तुमते पाऊं ॥
    I may remember none else except Thee; and obtain all the required boons from Thee;
     
  14. spnadmin

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    daggeroftruth ji

    First I want to say Thank You for your blessing. :) Granth Sahib does not translate very well into English. Granth means Book or Scripture. Sahib means Lord or Master. The entire name is Sri Guru Granth Sahib which means Sri (Shining, radiant, excellent) Guru (Teacher, light, dispeller of darkness) Granth (Book) Sahib (Lord, Master or even Friend).

    Put it all together: Radiant Teacher Sciripture Lord and Master.

    Translation: Sri Guru Granth Sahib is The Radiant Teacher, The Light Who is Our Scripture, Lord, Master and Friend. :yes:

    There is something of a problem recommending books that explain the Guru Granth Sahib. Built into Sikh faith is this idea: we are all learners and that Guru Granth Sahib is the Teacher and the Book. Thus, many Sikhs well-educated in gurmat vichaar, understanding the guru's wisdom, are reluctant to say that they are "teachers." We do not have clergy who would be "official" experts. Sikhs argue a lot and distrust experts. I refer you to this link as a starting point. This is the one I use over and over again. Here it is Sikhism: Reflections On Gurbani

    There are some very good essays here at SPN written by forum members in fact. Over the days and weeks other members will add to the list I am sure. I will add to the list.


    :) Guru Fateh!
     

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