Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

Hinduism Creation - Comparative Indic Perspectives

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Singhvj, Sep 3, 2008.

  1. Singhvj

    Singhvj
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2005
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    "You see when I learnt to drive (and maybe im alone on this) I didnt need the manual because I was first taught orally i.e through word."

    Vj ~ No you are not alone on this. You are just as brain-dead as other 6.5 billion people on this planet. Perhaps you should take your turban off so that your brains can cool off. It is the only way you may perhaps learn to apply proper reasoning.

    Warning. Comments like these are unacceptable. Do not continue insulting other forum members. Any further negativity will result in deletions/infractions. Debate the issues not the personality of your opponent. Thank you. aado0002


    If your dad taught you, and his dad taught him and so on, who taught the first humans who had no dads, had it not been for the manual (revelation)?



    The analogy applies to revelation as the complete manual given to first human beings in the beginning by God, teaching us everything that we have now come to know. It was perfect and complete for all in all ages until the end of creation and doesn't need God to ever intervene again.

    If Sikhs needed to be reminded of it, like the others needed to be reminded every now then, there was no one else for the last 2,500 years to do it, until Swami Dayanand came to the scene.

    Note. This is a frank warning Singhvj ji. Terms of Service forbid forum members from proselytizing on behalf of other sects, cults and religions. Please do not take this above comment to the next level.
    Thank you. aad0002


    Like Guru Nanak who invented a new religion, Swami Dayanand revived the ancient religion of the Vedas.

    Regards,


    Leaders Note:
    This thread consists of posts from a discussion in Creation in Islam. They were moved to keep Creation in Islam on topic.

    Thank you
     
    #1 Singhvj, Sep 3, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 6, 2008
  2. Loading...

    Similar Threads Forum Date
    Sikhi Sound In The Process Of Creation Of Universe Sikh Sikhi Sikhism Apr 1, 2016
    General Sikhi and Creationism Hard Talk Aug 22, 2014
    Destiny Points, Imagination and Creation Questions and Answers Apr 13, 2013
    Learn Punjabi The Creation of Gurmukhi Alphabets Language, Arts & Culture Dec 30, 2012
    Islam All Creation Glorifies God! Interfaith Dialogues Oct 13, 2012

  3. Dzokhar

    Dzokhar
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2007
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: Creation in Islam

    Namastay, Susriacal, Salam, Sholam, Whassup

    VJ, VJ, VJ, VJ. Dont tell me I have hurt that mini ego of yours lil man by simply calling you out on the absurd assertions that you posted. VJ do you sometimes feel that you cannot fully express yourself in a mature manner like adults do? I think this runs deeper then the fact that your English skills arent very good. I mean, where does this pent up anger and this obsession to be right come from? Did your mum breast feed you when you were child? Or did you have to jump up and down, run, shout to get her attention as you are doing on this very forum.

    'If your dad taught you, and his dad taught him and so on, who taught the first humans who had no dads, had it not been for the manual (revelation)?'-VJ

    Once again the language barrier has hit us. If you would just cast your eyes over my previous post you would see that the first man created by God, Yahweh, Allah was Adam with whom he communicated with directly and for whom he would produce 'miracles' daily. This would in itself destroy any doubt that Adam or Eve had when it came to the existence of God. Now as the good book(s) says (Torah, Bible, Quraan (?)) Adam carried out the original sin which would leave man in the state they are in today, doubting the existence of God. Which in itself would lead to the revelations of the 10 commandments, the Torah, The Bible (and the sacrifice of his son or his embodiement on earth in Christian Mythology), and the revelation of the Quraan. Now Im sorry if you feel insulted that your verdas and your Rik Veda dont make an appearance here but that is simply because they are not part of the Abrahamic Lineage of faiths.


    'The analogy applies to revelation as the complete manual given to first human beings in the beginning by God, teaching us everything that we have now come to know. It was perfect and complete for all in all ages until the end of creation and doesn't need God to ever intervene again.'-VJ

    Im sorry VJ but I don really give a toss mate. You can feel bad that your 'revelation' is over looked and you can even throw the little hissy fits that you have through this thread. Im not here to have a ****ing contest on which revelation is better because my mind is not that base. Every religion in the world promoted the teachings of its faith as perfect and the channel to God and spiritual enlightenment. So welcome to the mass heap my friend, you are one of many, many, many, many and like them will probably be over looked as you have already by most of man kind. If you want to go on an evangelical crusade to promote your manual I would recommend mass advertising-bumper stickers, radio Adverts, T Shirts, Massive Bill Boards saying 'Verdas No.1'!! However if you want to know why your piece of revelation is over looked by most of man then you need to stop being so angry and have an honest look deep inside. Ask yourself these honest questions-'why do athiests call it a fairy book?' 'Why do Christians call us heretics?'
     
  4. Dzokhar

    Dzokhar
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2007
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: Creation in Islam

    'Vj ~ No you are not alone on this. You are just as brain-dead as other 6.5 billion people on this planet. Perhaps you should take your turban off so that your brains can cool off. It is the only way you may perhaps learn to apply proper reasoning.'

    LOL ignorance must be bliss for the evangelical. I would loosen up my turban but im afraid i dont wear one. You might find this very hard to believe but I will try to get this point across to you...Only because this is a sikh forum doesnt mean everyone here is sikh.


    Has the penny dropped yet? How stupid do you feel?:happy:
     
  5. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2007
    Messages:
    4,578
    Likes Received:
    1,606
    Creation - Comparative Sanatan Perspectives

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Singhvj

    Singhvj
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2005
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: Creation in Islam

    Dzokhar -'Vj ~ No you are not alone on this. You are just as brain-dead as other 6.5 billion people on this planet.Perhaps you should take your turban off so that your brains can cool off. It is the only way you may perhaps learn to apply proper reasoning.'
    LOL ignorance must be bliss for the evangelical. I would loosen up my turban but im afraid i dont wear one. You might find this very hard to believe but I will try to get this point across to you...Only because this is a sikh forum doesnt mean everyone here is sikh. Has the penny dropped yet? How stupid do you feel?:happy:
    Vj ~ Then your situation is even worst than a Sikh - now you have to get off your backside and give your brains some air.

    Adam and Eve could not have been the first humans on earth, they only go back 6,000 years (Biblical age of creation), where as the Vedic concept of creation in this yuga, is almost 4 million years.

    Incest leads to mental and physical infirmities and thus the human race could not have its beginning by such immoral standards.

    Regards,
     
  7. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Re: Creation in Islam

    Jios,

    We have to use just a little more restraint in our words. Believe me I am tempted to use strong language myself - but let's not do it. Keep it cool. :cool:
     
  8. pk70

    pk70
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2008
    Messages:
    1,582
    Likes Received:
    627
    Re: Creation in Islam

    Vj ~ Then your situation is even worst than a Sikh - now you have to get off your backside and give your brains some air.
    What do you think of Sikhs? Wearing turban is a problem? Your master Daya Nand wore turban, didn't he? Did he write all hateful statements against others when he didn’t wear turban? Or otherwise? Who live in glass houses do not throw stones at others houses, you make sure it gets in your intellectual mind:rolleyes:
     
  9. Singhvj

    Singhvj
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2005
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: Creation in Islam

    Vj ~ Then your situation is even worst than a Sikh - now you have to get off your backside and give your brains some air.
    Pk70 - What do you think of Sikhs? Wearing turban is a problem? Your master Daya Nand wore turban, didn't he? Did he write all hateful statements against others when he didn’t wear turban? Or otherwise? Who live in glass houses do not throw stones at others houses, you make sure it gets in your intellectual mind

    Vj ~ I am aware of what he wore, but he didn't make it mandatory for all to wear.

    Whoever (Gobin Singh?) made it mandatory for Sikhs to wear, is densed in ignorance, for it leads Sikhs to believe that without it they can't get to heaven.

    Humans are fallible but yet we do not change the rules in the middle of a game. God is infallible and if religious symbols have come to be a new rule to get to heaven, then it most certainly has nothing to do with God.

    Furthermore, I have no difficulty to assimilate in Western culture, for I don't have to constantly fight the system to wear a turban or carry a kirpan when the law says otherwise.

    Beware, those who live in lies will always be hurt by the truth.

    Regards,
     
  10. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2004
    Messages:
    1,744
    Likes Received:
    86
    Re: Creation in Islam

    Gurfateh
    Well it means that what so ever Swami Ji did should not be done by all. That means his pro Veda should also not be followed.OK let us go be the way that Swami told not to wear Turban to all but he did tell others to follow Vedas.

    If we go by your logic.Had that swami put off his Turban then he would have been more sensible and may not have preached the Vedas.


    why do not you try to keep hairs and have Turban so that emptness of your great mind is fullfilled forever.

    As God is one with all Khalsa and Guru is one and God is God only because God is capable to change the world so as God changes the world so does god makes the newer rule.

    We as Sikh do not go with adjusting to the situations but by mercy of true God change the sitution as we God wants us to change.

    yuorelf stated that you have no difficulty to adjust/assimilate to western culture.Do you think it better then your vedic culture.

    Akal Only knows.

    Das is interested to know more about God from yourself.Let us first decide,what concept of God is there with in your mind dear Araya Samaji uncle?then we decide.Akal Bless.
     
  11. Singhvj

    Singhvj
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2005
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: Creation in Islam

    Jios,
    We have to use just a little more restraint in our words. Believe me I am tempted to use strong language myself - but let's not do it. Keep it cool.

    Vj~ There is no language, stronger than the truth. When I say followers of false dogmas are idiots, I literally mean, they are idiots.

    Regards,
     
  12. Singhvj

    Singhvj
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2005
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Vijaydeep Singh - Well it means that what so ever Swami Ji did should not be done by all. That means his pro Veda should also not be followed.OK let us go be the way that Swami told not to wear Turban to all but he did tell others to follow Vedas.

    Vj ~ You missed the point my friend. If religious symbols are mandatory, it would mean that the Guru Grantha on its own is weak and cannot lead sikhs to salvation. Whereas, the Vedas are fulfilled and do not need to be supported by religious symbols.


    If we go by your logic. Had that swami put off his Turban then he would have been more sensible and may not have preached the Vedas.

    Vj ~ A sikh has no logic and dispute my logic. Logic is born in the six darshanas, extract of the Vedas and not the Guru Grantha. In my opinion, it was those who did his portrait, put a turban on. He, himself, was always bareheaded.

    As God is one with all Khalsa and Guru is one and God is God only because God is capable to change the world so as God changes the world so does god makes the newer rule.

    Vj ~ God is Omniscient, He knows the past, present and future. He knows that whatever rules were given in the beginning are good until the end. If He is in need of changing the rules, it would mean that He is not Omnsicient. God did not change anything, evil ignorant men (Nanak) did . Get it lamebrain!
     
  13. pk70

    pk70
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2008
    Messages:
    1,582
    Likes Received:
    627
    Re: Creation in Islam

    Vj ~ You missed the point my friend. If religious symbols are mandatory, it would mean that the Guru Grantha on its own is weak and cannot lead Sikhs to salvation. Whereas, the Vedas are fulfilled and do not need to be supported by religious symbols.
    Only Vedas descendants are in quagmire of symbols with numerous legs arms, private part symbol, janeo blab bla. If any thing reasonable said by Vedas, it was never followed, it was just a dream of ignorant Daya nand to prove that Aryans were superior, in fact, they were enslaved for centuries, their conscious was eaten bit by bit not only by Muslim rulers but also Western as well. How foolishly, by taking a shield of Vedas, they tried( and still try) to be superior. Most of their blood literally is in Saudi Arabia or in Iran. Bow and pay respect to Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh who made warriors out of the class your idiots segregated them as “low class”. You uncle wore turban because he thought he was superior( turban was of a symbol of dignity, get some lesson from History) and let you not wear it, obviously he considered others were not worthy and are idiots. The fact remains, he wore turban, no body made him wear, if Sikhs were asked to wear it, the reason behind was to stand up against those who considered only themselves worthy of it, in those days. The Sikhs were not asked to blend in ruling class like cowards as many of your brethren did.
    If we go by your logic. Had that swami put off his Turban then he would have been more sensible and may not have preached the Vedas.( Vijaydeep Singh)
    Vj ~. In my opinion, it was those who did his portrait, put a turban on. He, himself, was always bareheaded.
    Did he write that? Did he write about turban? No. You are covering up lies. Hinduism has so many facets; you can not cover one and say that you don’t believe in it. Daya Nand says Kirishn was not authority on Vedas, Most of Hindus call Krishan “ God” In Geeta there are questions about Vedas, why? Who is idiot? Daya Nand or Krishna? Krishna was enlightened one, obviously Daya Nand and his followers deserve that title. Hinduism is nothing but a box of goodies for all, so let them enjoy separate goodies, at least other religions have some thing in common, they have a prophet and the convictions about their teachings, here on your side, it is rain of variety of goodies to enjoy. You talk about science, how many scientists are produced by Vedas ( due to their inspiration? Those who contributed to science have nothing to do with Vedas. It is hilarious now you teach science out of your religion that has no one principle that can unite all facets it has developed over centuries. Look at you, coming to Sikh site and daring to write bad words about the Gurus of Sikhs; how low kind of conscious you have, it has been proved through your bellitting words you use against others. Even after knowing this, you were spared from that kind of insult you deserve. Guru Nanak says” don’t waste time on idiots” so we don’t go to you, an idiot has come to us. So did your uncle daya. Let me clear other thing, get out of false mask of being spiritual or religious; your uncle was not and you are not, the way he talked about others in disagreement( and you talk about other religions), is a sheer display of the fact that how low level of being he was and you are . A person displays quality of spirituality and maturity through the words he/she uses. Got it?
    As God is one with all Khalsa and Guru is one and God is God only because God is capable to change the world so as God changes the world so does god makes the newer rule.( Vijaydeep Singh Ji)
    Vj ~ God is Omniscient, He knows the past, present and future. He knows that whatever rules were given in the beginning are good until the end. If He is in need of changing the rules, it would mean that He is not Omnsicient. God did not change anything, evil ignorant men (Nanak) did . Get it lamebrain!
    Well, one of Vedas and other stuff demean Humanity( atharva Veda-human sacrifice, porno type obscenity…) why did they change a reality HE revealed to those so called Aryans, as you and your uncle Daya boast about. universe in whom the whole world exists, rig ved( 10-126-8). is it just to impress others? You know, Hitler were crazy with Aryan complex, so are you. You call others lame brain, what about you guys. It is not even balanced one. Reason is simple, mature one do not shout with low quality words at others, this disease you have caught from your uncle daya nand. Your laundry is so dirty that you smell bad. Keep washing, dirt is so deep that smell will continue. You guys should have leaned some thing from Islam, but you didn’t. In fact, you wasted more time in copying western to blend in but didn’t learn from them either (the civility or technique to learn in complete). You know why? It is in your degraded consciousness, that is why a reality in Vedas was not practiced. You question others, in Hindi there is one saying:” nao so chooha khake billi hajj ko challi( after eating nine hundred rates, now cat is going to a pilgrimage” You haven’t read properly any of scriptures of other religions and start boasting about a contradictory doctrine and trying to prove it is the first one. News for you, many worlds are lost, many civilizations are lost, some are at the bed of Ocean, and they could be the first ones to have "Truth" revealed. So wake up from a slumber and clean your own laundry first before you talk to others and boast about TRUTH which is rarely found in your boastings.
    Beware, those who live in lies will always be hurt by the truth.( quote singhvj)
    Exactly, a history of thousands of years put you right into this fact.
    Humans are fallible but yet we do not change the rules in the middle of a game. God is infallible and if religious symbols have come to be a new rule to get to heaven, then it most certainly has nothing to do with God.
    You guys have made change after change; your own scriptures are examples of it. Wake up, at horizon sky and earth do not meet.


    Vj~ There is no language, stronger than the truth. When I say followers of false dogmas are idiots, I literally mean, they are idiots.
    Idiots are those who make claim to know without any study of the subject( they lecture on like pseudo scholars). No where else “Truth” was more abused than in India by the descendants of veda believers. You have drum beating site, stay there so that others can stay clean. Let me give you quote that sheds light on your desperation, it is by our friend “ VIJAYDEEP SINGH” from this site from different thread. For you, it should do a ritual you advocate on your site to wake up ( putting water in to mouth then sprinkling all over face…blab bla)
    Faith is something be concentrating in remembering the God. all thoughts give way to remembrance of God .While Arya Samajis are more in intellect and logic so mental peace is missing so they are least spiritual and ultimately, in present they are a dying cult. Lamp is flickering before going off. Mr Singhvj are last few before extinction.( quote Vijaydeep Singh ji thread all religions are false…):yes: addition: intellect and logic but with poor quality.
     
  14. Singhvj

    Singhvj
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2005
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: Creation in Islam

    "in present they are a dying cult. Lamp is flickering before going off. Mr Singhvj are last few before extinction."

    Vj ~ You've hit the nail right on the head. The lamp (true learning) is indeed flickering and soon it will go out and leave the world in total darkness again as it did before Swami Dayanand came.

    It is the law of nature that all things finite must come to an end and righteousness (dharma) is of no exception to the law.

    This is Kaliyug and only dense ignorance (pain and suffering) can flourish lavishly.

    Actually it is not such a bad thing since souls are needed to be incarnated into parasites of the worst kind, insects, animals, vegetation, etc.. How else will creation go on?

    So good luck and goodbye to you idiots who know more of God and His creation than the learned.

    Regards,
     
  15. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Creation - Comparative Sanatan Perspectives

    This thread is located in the Hard Talk forum. Keep it tight and keep it cool. Debate the issues, not the personalities.
     
  16. Dzokhar

    Dzokhar
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2007
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    'Incest leads to mental and physical infirmities and thus the human race could not have its beginning by such immoral standards.'
    Abrahamic faiths maintain that the stature of Adam and Eva was beyond that of humans as they were gods first creation. Islam goes further to say that the creations that can never be fully understood by humans are the Quraan, The Angel (Ruh) Djibrael and Adam. However all three faiths maintained that time within the garden of Edan was sacred and beyond any social structuring that modern day man has or can comprehend thus it was not Incest that man was born from but the miracle of God. Which shouldnt be too unbelievable from a person who believes in thousands of gods from the ghensh to vishnu...or even further, that these gods are incapsulated (somehow) in stone.


    'Adam and Eve could not have been the first humans on earth, they only go back 6,000 years (Biblical age of creation), where as the Vedic concept of creation in this yuga, is almost 4 million years.'-VJ

    Once again the language barrier hits us or maybe it is your reading skills that are lacking VJ. I am not here to say who is right or who is wrong. You can bash your chest and procclaim how the verdas is the rightful path all you want. I am not here to argue that with you because i am not that base...but its good to see that you are.

    My original post to you was to answer your assertion on why did god need to send the abrahamic scriptures, not to argue who is right and who is wrong. You have yet to come up with any response to that, instead you beat round the bush jumping from topic to topic. If you want to believe in your stone dieties who you beleieve created the universe then you go right ahead. It is as pluasible as the idea as there being a man in the sky who has winged angels to do his bidding. And that belief is as plausibe as the bridge in the Indian ocean that hindus believe was created by Bhagvaan and his flying winged monkey servants in the creation of Earth. If you want to believe the verdas account on how the universe began while ignoring the scientific theories of the big bang and the aracheolgical sites that under covered the dinosaurs who were on this earth before humans then go right ahead. You now share the same space as the the drooling religious zealots that can see no further then there own holy books and (mis)-interpretations. Here's a pat on the back for you VJ-hold that verdas close to your heart and follow its 'moral' teachings with nice cold glass of cow urine....bombs away pundit!!!

    Chug! chug! Chug! Chug! Chug!


    'Vj ~ Then your situation is even worst than a Sikh - now you have to get off your backside and give your brains some air.'-VJ
    My friend I would get off my back side but I am still waiting on this phone to re-new my car insurance. If you people at the Indian call centres would actually work instead of posting on some site then I would be done alot quicker. It would also allow someone with more of an education and logical mindset to post rather then an individual (i.e you) whose main function in life is to read off a piece of paper in a stuffy call centre in Bangalore.

    Next time what will happen is an infraction. This is a warning to modify your language. Debate the issues. Thank you. Keep it tight and keep it cool.
     
    #15 Dzokhar, Sep 6, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 6, 2008
  17. Huck_Finn

    Huck_Finn
    Expand Collapse
    (previously amarsanghera, account deactivated at t
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2006
    Messages:
    1,324
    Likes Received:
    145
    re: Creation - Comparative Indic Perspectives

    Vj, can you please define what is False and what is True?
     
  18. Huck_Finn

    Huck_Finn
    Expand Collapse
    (previously amarsanghera, account deactivated at t
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2006
    Messages:
    1,324
    Likes Received:
    145
    > Vj Here are some religious symbolisms from Vedas and the reference

    Janeou also called Yajnopavita or the sacred thread is worn by the Brahmins, Kshatriyas and the Vaisyas.
    Wearing the sacred thread is a very holy and sacred ceremony amongst the Hindus. Brahmin boys between the ages of five and eight are invested with the sacred thread on a very auspicious day. By this ceremony, they become fit for the repetition of Gayatri.
    A Brahmin becomes a true Brahmin only after this ceremony.
    so says most of the websites about this Now what is the source for this ?

    Rigveda, Yajurveda, Atharvaveda, Gopatha Brahmana, Satapata Brahmana, Taittereya Aranyaka, Chandogya Upanishad, Brihadaaranyaka Upanishad contain references to Upanayana samskaara and mantras connected with the ceremony.
    The derivation of the word Upanayanam in samskrit language is - ";vedam gurum upa sameepam niyate yena karmana tat"

    meaning - that act by which one is led near to the veda and the teacher

    The boy is now called the DWIJA, twice born. While the first birth marks the arrival of the Jeeva (Life) into the world, the second birth is the young boy‟s initiation into a spiritual life of study as prescribed in the Vedas. For this second life Savitri is the mother and the teacher is the father. Please explain how this is different from Baptism or other so called fake ceremonies in other religions? How wearing a cotton thread makes you a person eligible for study of vedas? Why can't shudras wear the thread?

    Here is the complete ritual sequence in case you have never known what it is:

    PROGRESSIVE STEPS OF THE UPANAYANAM RITUAL 1. Invocation of Lord Ganesha (Ganesha pooja) 2. Invoking holy waters to the pot (Kalasa pooja) 3. Sanctification of the place and the assembly (Punyaahavachanam) 4. Declaration of the purpose of the ritual (Sankalpa) 5. Request the assembly to grant permission to conduct the ceremony 6. Wearing ceremony of the nine-stranded sacred thread (Yagnoepaveeta dhaaranam) 7. Tying the holy wrist band for the function (kankana bhandanam) 8. Sprouting the grains in pots by the ladies (symbolic of environmental care) 9. The last meal given by the mother before entering the school with relatives and friends (Pankti-bhoejanam) 10. Shaving the head to enter into austere life (Vapanam-Mundan) 11. Bathing ceremony with holy waters 12. Preparation of the holy fire (Agnikunda pratishthaapanam) 13. Stepping on the stone and dressing up with the attire of Brahmachari Bachelorhood attire (Vastra dhaaranam) 14. Blessing the boy with water by the Guru (Udakaanjali) 15. Initiation to 11 mantras of 11 deities for protection against mishaps during vedic studies (Agni; Varuna; Soma; Savitr; Saraswati; Mritya; Yama; Gada; Antika; Oshadhi; Prithvi ) 16. Initiation by guru in privacy to Suprja mantra in the ears of the boy 17. Main sacrifice to fire by the boy 11 sacrfices in all eleven mantras of which two of them are chanted by the Guru 18. Initiation to Gayatri Mantra (Brahmoepadesam) 19. Looking at the Sun with Sun-mudra offering prayers to the Sun-god Tacchakshuh mantra for longevity (Tacchakshuh-saradassatam) 20. Fire sacrifice (homam; samidaa daanam) 21. Smearing with vibhuti or naamam at specific spots in the body chanting mantras (Bhasma/naama dhaaranam) 22. Assurances to Guru by the boy to perform Brahmacharya duties regularly and with devotion (Prativachanam) 23. Going round for alms starting with the mother (Bhikshaatanam) 24. Concluding ceremonies- blessing of the bachelor by the gathering honoring guru and the gathering Guru is honored by giving away the new clothe worn by the boy for the ceremony with reverence 25. Waving of the vermillion and sacred grain containing water by the ladies (kumkuma akshata aarati)


    now if you are wondering how Ganesha- a god of fourth century appears in Rig Veda, well it is nothing but Brahmaņaspati, which is mentioned as one of the three key gods in Rig Veda. Over time and emergence of Puranas, it mingled with Shaivic influence and turned into Ganesha.
     
  19. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2007
    Messages:
    4,578
    Likes Received:
    1,606
    Aryan Invasion Theory

    Traditional view

    Hinduism has a long and complex history. It is a blend of ancient legends, beliefs and customs which has adapted, blended with, and spawned numerous creeds and practices.
    Please note:
    The 'traditional' view of Hindu history, as described in this section, has been challenged by modern scholars.

    In particular, various scholars have advanced the following theories:
    • Hindu religion pre-dated 3000BCE
    • 'Aryan', a Sanskrit word meaning 'noble', does not refer to an invading race at all
    • The Aryans did not invade but migrated gradually
    • The Aryans were native to the area, or found there long before the alleged invasion
    • Hinduism originated solely in India
    • There is ongoing controversy over which version of Hindu history is the correct one.
    Prehistoric religion:

    (3000-1000 BCE)
    The earliest evidence for elements of the Hindu faith dates back as far as 3000 BCE.
    Archaeological excavations in the Punjab and Indus valleys (right) have revealed the existence of urban cultures at Harappa, the prehistoric capital of the Punjab (located in modern Pakistan); and Mohenjo-daro on the banks of the River Indus.
    Archaeological work continues on other sites at Kalibangan, Lothal and Surkotada.

    The excavations have revealed signs of early rituals and worship.
    • In Mohenjodaro, for example, a large bath has been found, with side rooms and statues which could be evidence of early purification rites.
    • Elsewhere, phallic symbols and a large number statues of goddesses have been discovered which could suggest the practice of early fertility rites.
    [​IMG]
    This early Indian culture is sometimes called the Indus Valley civilisation.

    Pre-classical (Vedic)

    (2000 BCE - 1000)
    Some time in the second millennium BCE the Aryan people arrived in north-west India.
    The Aryans (Aryan means noble) were a nomadic people who may have come to India from the areas around southern Russia and the Baltic.
    They brought with them their language and their religious traditions. These both influenced and were influenced by the religious practices of the peoples who were already living in India.

    Worship

    • The Indus valley communities used to gather at rivers for their religious rituals.
    • The Aryans gathered around fire for their rituals.
    • The Indus valley communities regarded rivers as sacred, and had both male and female gods.
    • The Aryan gods represented the forces of nature; the sun, the moon, fire, storm and so on.
    Over time, the different religious practices tended to blend together.
    Sacrifices were made to gods such as Agni, the God of Fire, and Indra, the God of storms.

    Writings

    Aspects of the Aryan faith began to be written down around 800 BCE in literature known as the Vedas. These developed from their oral and poetic traditions.
    You can see some of the Vedic tradition in Hindu worship today.

    The Caste System

    The Aryans also introduced the varna system (varna = estates or classes) to India, which may have contributed to the caste system we see today.
    Some think that it developed from a simpler two-tier structure consisting of nobles at the top, and everyone else below.

    Others say that it was established and practised by the priests who divided society into three parts:
    • The priests (or Brahmins).
    • The warriors (the Kshatriyas).
    • The ordinary people.
    The rise of Jainism and Buddhism

    (800-600 BCE)
    Buddhism and Jainism emerged from India around 800-600 BCE, a period of great cultural, intellectual and spiritual development, and both had an enormous influence on Hinduism.
    Some of the previously accepted truths of the religion were beginning to be questioned and the religious leaders were being asked to defend their views and teachings.
    Furthermore, the old tribal structure of society was diminishing.
    The result was an increasing number of breakaway sects, of which Buddhism and Jainism were probably the most successful.

    Buddhism

    Buddha was born in the sixth century BCE as Gautama Siddhartha. He was a member of the powerful warrior class.
    He renounced the pleasures and materialism of this world to search for the truth. Through this quest he developed his basic principles for living.
    Buddhism became the state religion of India in the third century BCE.
    Buddhism had a great influence on Hinduism, from the way it used parables and stories as a means of religious instruction, to its influence on Indian art, sculpture and education.

    Jainism

    The founder of the Jains, Mahavira ("the great hero"), was a near contemporary of the Buddha's and he rejected the caste system, along with the Hindu belief in the cycle of births.
    Mahavira was the twenty fourth of the Tirthankaras, the "Path-makers", or great teachers of Jainism.
    They developed the concept of three ways, or "jewels" - right faith, right knowledge and right conduct.
    The Jains were never a numerically large group but their influence was out of all proportion to their size and distribution.
    Mahatma Gandhi, whilst himself not a Jain, embraced their doctrine of non-violence to living things.

    The End of the Era

    During the last centuries of the previous era, the Mauryan empire ruled much of India. The most famous ruler, Asoka, although a Buddhist himself, thought that the Brahman religion was worthy of respect.
    Brahmanism revived with the end of Mauryan rule, and at the same time devotion to individual gods, such as Vishnu and Siva, began to grow.
    Some of the early Hindu images date from this period.

    The Start of the Current Era

    The first 400 years CE were a time of upheaval in the Hindu heartland. A variety of invaders ruled the area, bringing injections of their own cultures and beliefs.
    Hinduism strengthened, and the cults of individual gods grew stronger. Goddesses, too, began to attract followers.

    The Rise of "Hinduism"

    The years to 1000 CE saw Hinduism gaining strength at the expense of Buddhism.
    Some Hindu rulers took military action to suppress Buddhism. However it was probably developments in Hinduism itself that helped the faith to grow.
    Hinduism now included not only the appeal of devotion to a personal god, but had seen the development of its emotional side with the composition and singing of poems and songs. This made Hinduism an intelligible and satisfying road to faith to many ordinary worshippers.




    The Arrival of Islam

    Islam arrived in the Ganges basin in the 7th century, but its influence was not really felt until the Turks arrived in the 11th and 12th centuries CE.
    Islam and Hinduism were in conflict because, although the mystical traditions of both religions had some common ground, Muslim rulers sought to conquer Hindu territories and, from the 17th century, to assert the superiority of Islam.
    Islam was established — and flourished — chiefly in areas where Buddhism was in a process of slow decline, that is mainly around modern-day Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir.
    Hinduism remained strongest in the south of India.

    Western Influence

    Hinduism as it is known and recognised today has been greatly affected by the influence of western thought and practices.
    In the 18th and 19th centuries, missionaries from Europe attempted to convert Hindus to Christianity with varying degrees of success.
    This challenged Hindu leaders to reform many practices and in some cases, revive old practices.
    This period has been recognised as a period of Hindu revivalism.

    Rammohan Roy

    An early leader in this field was Rammohan Roy (1772-1833), a scholar who spoke Arabic, Persian, Hebrew, Greek, Latin and Sanskrit alongside his native Bengali.
    He read most of the religious scriptures from around the world and discovered that there was little difference between them.
    In 1828, he founded the Brahmo Samaj, based on the teachings of the Upanishads.
    Whilst he based much of his work on the teachings of the Upanishads, his social outlook was progressive and he was keen to develop education and particularly the establishment of western sciences into Indian culture.
    Rammohan Roy died in Bristol of meningitis while on a visit to Europe. There is a statue of him at College Green in Bristol.

    Ramakrishna Paramahamsa

    [​IMG] Ramakrishna Paramahamsa ©

    Another school of Hinduism developed under the influence of Ramakrishna Paramahamsa (1836-86) who put much greater emphasis on devotion to God.
    He combined the trend of popular Hinduism with its many images with a belief in a loveable Almighty God, for he could see God in many forms.
    He preached without a complicated theology and without an over-reliance on the scriptures.
    It was a pluralist approach to Hinduism which helped it to find its feet in the modern world.

    Swami Vivekananda

    [​IMG] Swami Vivekananda ©

    The work of Ramakrishna Paramahamsa was continued and extended by Swami Vivekananda (1863-1902) who, after 12 years of ascetic study and discipline, was responsible for promoting the Hindu tradition and thought in the west.
    He taught that the divine is in everything and promoted the Ramakrishna Mission which is well known for its social work as well as being a focus for Hindu religious thought.

    International Society for Krishna Consciousness

    More often known as the Hare Krishnas, the movement is often recognised as the western face of Hinduism.
    Its origins can be traced back to Chaitanya, a fifteenth century devotee of Krishna, who chanted devotional songs to Krishna.
    His teachings were promoted in the 20th century by Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, who had a vision of taking the message of Chaitanya to the west shortly before his death in 1936.
    This work was taken up by Prabhupada who took that message to the United States and eventually established bases around the world to promote those teachings.

    Controversial

    One of the most controversial ideas about Hindu history is the Aryan invasion theory.
    This theory, originally devised by F. Max Muller in 1848, traces the history of Hinduism to the invasion of India's indigenous people by lighter skinned Aryans around 1500 BCE.
    The theory was reinforced by other research over the next 120 years, and became the accepted history of Hinduism, not only in the West but in India.
    But many people argue that there is now evidence to show that Muller, and those who followed him, were wrong.
    Others, however, believe that the case against the Aryan invation theory is far from conclusive.
    The matter remains very controversial and highly politicised. The article below sets out the case made by those who believe that the Aryan invasion theory is seriously flawed.

    The case against the Aryan invasion theory

    The Aryan invasion theory was based on archaeological, linguistic and ethnological evidence.
    Later research, it is argued, has either discredited this evidence, or provided new evidence that combined with the earlier evidence makes other explanations more likely.
    Some historians of the area no longer believe that such invasions had such great influence on Indian history. It's now generally accepted that Indian history shows a continuity of progress from the earliest times to today.
    The changes brought to India by other cultures are not denied by modern historians, but they are no longer thought to be a major ingredient in the development of Hinduism.

    Dangers of the theory

    Opponents of the Aryan invasion theory claim that it denies the Indian origin of India's predominant culture, and gives the credit for Indian culture to invaders from elsewhere.
    They say that it even teaches that some of the most revered books of Hindu scripture are not actually Indian, and it devalues India's culture by portraying it as less ancient than it actually is.

    The theory was not just wrong, some say, but included unacceptably racist ideas:
    • it suggested that Indian culture was not a culture in its own right, but a synthesis of elements from other cultures
    • it implied that Hinduism was not an authentically Indian religion but the result of cultural imperialism
    • it suggested that Indian culture was static, and only changed under outside influences
    • it suggested that the dark-skinned Dravidian people of the South of India had got their faith from light-skinned Aryan invaders
    • it implied that indigenous people were incapable of creatively developing their faith
    • it suggested that indigenous peoples could only acquire new religious and cultural ideas from other races, by invasion or other processes
    • it accepted that race was a biologically based concept (rather than, at least in part, a social construct) that provided a sensible way of ranking people in a hierarchy, which provided a partial basis for the caste system
    • it provided a basis for racism in the Imperial context by suggesting that the peoples of Northern India were descended from invaders from Europe and so racially closer to the British Raj
    • it gave a historical precedent to justify the role and status of the British Raj, who could argue that they were transforming India for the better in the same way that the Aryans had done thousands of years earlier
    • it downgraded the intellectual status of India and its people by giving a falsely late date to elements of Indian science and culture.
    Source: BBC - Religion & Ethics - History: Aryan Invasion Theory
     
  20. pk70

    pk70
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2008
    Messages:
    1,582
    Likes Received:
    627
    My special thanks to amarsanghera ji and namjap ji for shedding light on various aspects in context of factual study of religious aspect, its relations with its origin and other influences on it.
     
  21. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2007
    Messages:
    4,578
    Likes Received:
    1,606
    Page 1133, Line 12
    ਦੈਤ ਪੁਤ੍ਰੁ ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦੁ ਗਾਇਤ੍ਰੀ ਤਰਪਣੁ ਕਿਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਸਬਦੇ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    दैत पुत्रु प्रहलादु गाइत्री तरपणु किछू न जाणै सबदे मेलि मिलाइआ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
    Ḏaiṯ puṯar parahlāḏ gā*iṯarī ṯarpaṇ kicẖẖū na jāṇai sabḏė mėl milā*i*ā. ||1|| rahā*o.
    Prahlaad, the demon's son, knew nothing of the Hindu morning prayer, the Gayatri, and nothing about ceremonial water-offerings to his ancestors; but through the Word of the Shabad, he was united in the Lord's Union. ||1||Pause||
    Guru Amar Das - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]
     
    #20 Astroboy, Sep 8, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016

Share This Page