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Consensus Gurbani Word Meanings

Discussion in 'Intellectual Translations by SPNers' started by 14691708, Jan 16, 2016.

  1. 14691708

    14691708
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    Dear Seekers of the Truth to Oneness :


    For key terms such as Naam and Hukam is there "community/expert" consensus on the origin, elements, structure , function and application of the meaning of these foundational/fundamental terms that appear in the SGGS, specifically as they were used at the time of the Guruship period and how in the modern era these terms may be concisely described/ communicated to readers of the SGGS ?

    I apologize in advance if there is a current or existing thread on this subject , if you could please provide link(s) to existing thread , much appreciated.

    Thank you for reading and contributing to this thread.
     
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  3. Ishna

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    Simply put, no.

    At best, the definitions we have available are akin to blind people describing different parts of an elephant.

    It's very difficult to explain deep philosophical concepts, particularly only via the written word, and particularly when culture and time conspire to cloud the meaning.
     
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    #2 Ishna, Jan 16, 2016
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  4. 14691708

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    No answers or disagreement , just some thoughts...that may fall out of scope of the original thread title, apologies if that is the case.

    With the passage of time and events, the meaning of language may evolve due to the shaping of meaning of historical ideas and dogma by influences of current socio-political and economic forces acting in a given geography and/or ethnocultural group.

    To release the wisdom and truths of the SGGS outside of the historical ethno/geographical/economical views , consensus definitional translation and mapping of the key SGGS terms to current times will demonstrate to "modern" humanity the deep wisdom and analytical findings expressed by the Gurus to understand and improve the nature and fate of mankind , these eternal truths were based on the historical events that played out during the lives of the Gurus and set to the written word and context of those times.

    The critical failure of "Modern" materialistic/scientific approach to understand reality and humanity is in part due to the historical premise based on upward causation ( particles/atoms/molecules matter cosmos etc) this approach was deliberate and to avoid conflict and the issues with the complexity and inability to link material science to downward causation ( "God" , Creator , term based on belief system ).

    A preliminary survey of current scientific thought/theories reveals a change in some scientific disciplines examining and finding the essential need for the "God" particle/paradigm or the intuitive higher consciousness (Creator forcefields) that ultimately explain current scientific paradoxes.

    Science in time will acknowlege that downward causation , creates the manifested and unmanifested states of reality and unreality. The paradigm shift under way for sometime is that material science follows as manifested states of reality revealed by downward causation i.e. "God"/"Creator".

    The essence of materialism and non- materialism philosophy no doubt are embedded in the beautiful poetry in the SGGS , with my limited knowledge of the historical period, the medium , type and style of the language was selected to communicate in a simple yet very compelling manner the essence of the material world , human existence and non-existence to bothe oppressed and oppressor segments of society.

    For this reason I was looking to understand, if and how experts and scholars have reached consensus on the key terms Naam and Hukam. If there is consensus on meaning of key terms in present day language , the hope is this will open and release the eteranl wisdom of SGGS to rest of humanity , to balance materialism and non-materialism to achieve the truth of existence and non-existence.
     
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  5. Sherdil

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    Some good resources, in my opinion:

    1) Mahan Kosh by Professor Kahn Singh Nabha

    2) Bhai Gurdas ji's Vaars
     
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  6. Original

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    .....insofar, community/expert on the origin etc of Gurbani, yes there are texts available, such as Mahan Kosh, Vars Bhai Gurdas Ji, Puratan Janamsakhi and various literary n historical instruments of that particular epoch, but insofar, general consensus and statutory interpretation to aid mordern era audiences, no. However, as we speak, work is underway by scholars n institutions to have full completeness and accuracy of the same to zeal them "authentic" as Sikh Statutes. They will form the general principles of Sikhism together with glossary of terms.

    Modern historians such as Professor Sahib Singh, Bhai Veer Singh and Santokh Singh offer complimentary n compatable history and interpretations of Gurbani par with Sikh Ideology. The list is by no means exhaustive nor exclusive. But please feel free to fire anything on to the community panel and you will get a good response.
     
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  7. Ishna

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    Really? This is very exciting! Do you have any more information about this project, ji?
     
  8. Original

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    ....I'm afraid I don't, but Sikh Missionary Society UK together with popular Sikh Sangat Will in general have had table talks to address the same with SGPC. I'm led to believe Scholars from within Sikh Institutions are currently engaged in documenting Sikh literature.
     
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  9. Original

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    .....the operative word in my view is "evolution", that is, Charles Darwin's TOE and how it corroborates with the writings of SGGSJ [ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ ॥ ਜੇ ਕਰਿ ਸੂਤਕੁ ਮੰਨੀਐ ਸਭ ਤੈ ਸੂਤਕੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਗੋਹੇ ਅਤੈ ਲਕੜੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੀੜਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਜੇਤੇ ਦਾਣੇ ਅੰਨ ਕੇ ਜੀਆ ਬਾਝੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਪਹਿਲਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ਹੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਸੂਤਕੁ ਕਿਉ ਕਰਿ ਰਖੀਐ ਸੂਤਕੁ ਪਵੈ ਰਸੋਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੂਤਕੁ ਏਵ ਨ ਉਤਰੈ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਉਤਾਰੇ ਧੋਇ ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 472}], in bold. If that'd be correct then it follows that Sikhism is a Science and must accordingly be treated as such. And, if work on the understanding and the mechanics of humankind [human genome] within a teleological perspective is a prerogative then that surely must be assigned to the realms of Art [Humanities]. Taken together [Science n Art] we have have both perception n conception of reality [Ikonkar]. So really, modern day Scientists and Gurmukhs are the one n the same albeit the former a creator of materialism and the latter an enjoyer of the spiritual, purpose being, sat [truth], santokh [contentment] and vichar [meditation/contemplation].

    Moving on to Naam n Hukam, where the former an interchangeable term [Sikh Ideology] with shabd, word, amrit, amrit bani, etc meaning God, the latter a command of a higher sovereign, meaning Akal Purakh. Taken together from within the Sikh Ideological perspective has both meaning and purpose for the believer [Gurmukh] humankind and for the non-believer [Manmukh], a secular ring. Sikhism accommodates the two on account it being beyond time n space, ontologically speaking.
     
    #8 Original, Jan 18, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2016
  10. 14691708

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    Good discussion thread ....few more thoughts for consideration and discussion.


    The challenge posed to todays Sikh scholars is how to decode the SGGS for the wider non-ethno-geographical-culture centric audience , given the philosophy is revealed in a poetic nature drawing on the historical and sociological events of the same era.

    The written style(s) of language(s) and script(s) utilized to record the various discourses of the Gurus during the period, reflect on the historical and sociological events/characters/personalities/sites and places of historical significance.

    The philosophical tenets/themes throughout the SGGS that relate to the origin of and existence of being and things, nature , purpose and limitations of humanity , morality and ethics , appear to promote a character/society framework based on an empiric observations to understand and improve knowledge of the observed Cosmos and inhabitants , including the nature of Man and causality of observed /unobserved effects/events.

    It maybe argued decoupling the historical record and distilling the philosophical truths in the SGGS would serve as a model framework for modern Man to address the balance of material and non-material existence.

    Thoughts ?




    Separate Note - Implications of technology and Spirituality -
    **(perhaps this should be a separate thread , will leave it to the expertise of the Admin)**

    The world will continue to be more connected and yet on the current flight path humanity appears to be become more isolated and self-centered, a new "unreality" e-paradigm ( "existing" more and more in a social media "ether " - modern "oppressor" ).

    The immediate nature and the vastness and availability of media & information and technology , controlled by a very few Corporations, becomes a growing societal burden and illness.

    It maybe argued Society does not face the same adversities and inequalities as were present during the Guruship era , however today mankind is facing a new signficant disruptive invisible oppressor provided by a technology interface that continues to consume and degrade the Spiritual nature of Man , so how do you bring and layer the wisdom of the SGGS to one of the modern oppressors of humanity - technology and information overload.

    Is and will the internet/social media technology (Modern Maya) etc continue erode and degrade Mankind's search for Spiritual existence ?

    Where will the ubiquitous consumption of the immediacy of the world wide web and its "here and now" of the dreamlike belief of the "all knowing" consumer lead to ?





    ,
     
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  11. Original

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    With pleasure !
    ..with the word decode kicks in the science of grammer and letter, meaning, academic approach, SGGSJ is a living being, start conversing with it and allow it to sprout and interpret the world view rather than intellectually looking for meanings. On the same token, from a scholar perspective, it is recommended not a requirement per se, to learn to read Gurbani. The reason behind it is to understand and recreate the conditions, environment, culture and the ideology prevalent at the time of the writers of Gurbani to do justice to it as a scholar. Just as a lot would be lost in rewriting "Shakespeare" without understanding the emotional content of William's constitution [social, environmental and genetic] so would be the case if Gurbani was to be deciphered without the understanding of its entire historical toolkit. In a nutshell, Sikhism promotes living with the Guru on a day to day basis as opposed to intellectual investigation.

    But yes, you're right, decoding is not simple !
    ...yes all this and a lot more with teleological world view.
    ..yes as an overview, but doctrinal is very much institutional. The Gurmukh and the Manmukh is the dish of the day for Gur Ghar. First the moulding of the individual is deemed essential and then kicks in moral and social obligatiions to both society and the state. Driving as it were for the refinement of the human soul to enjoy meeting her "lover" here and now amidst the maddening crowd of the 7.3 billion [?] population.
    ...said Nanak, "before me came, Krishna, Rama, Christ, Moses, Buddha and Mohammed, they too preached what I preach and, so too after me will rise many, hence evolution, part n parcel of Ikonkar, the good, bad n the ugly are the human condition - no heaven without hell. The secret is "nam". Those who get the taste will want more and will evolve to rise in spirit and exist the world of matter - transcendence, thus achieving ultimately the spiritual experience in a human body".

    Many thanks for the invitation, have an offical engagement at 09:30 and perhaps at close of business will look at the world of IT.

    Till then - enjoy the day like I will in chardi kala.
     
  12. Tejwant Singh

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    14691708 (Great Name!),

    Guru Fateh.

    Thanks for the Great thread.

    Just one observation.

    Gurmukh and Munmukh are not the final destinations nor any titles, but they are parts of being a Sikh. We, as Sikhs hop scotch between Gurmukhtah and Munmukhtah many, many times a day.

    SGGS, our only Guru gives us the tools for us to learn. It teaches us how to lessen our hopscotching towards Munmukhtah. In other words, these tools expand our state of remaining a Gurmukh.
     
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    #11 Tejwant Singh, Feb 4, 2016
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  13. Tejwant Singh

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    Allow me to add one more important point towards the meanings of Gurmukh and Munmukh.

    Some well read, well thought and well meaning members have mentioned Gurmukh to be a Believer and Mummukh to be a Non- Believer.

    In my opinion, these are two states of mind of a Sikh as mentioned above.

    One more important thing to ponder is that, the terms Believer and Non- Believer are used very often in the Abrahamic religions which Sikhi has nothing to do with because Non- Believers are going to perish in a hot cauldron if they do not convert to Christianity when Jesus returns,aka Rapture. Islam uses the word Ka-fir who shall be killed according to Quran and lastly, the Jewish people claim they are the chosen ones, hence the only believers of Torah and Talmud, where it all started. This is the reason, the Jewish people call themselves the people of The Book.
     
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  14. swarn bains

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    i translated sggs in English. I took help from Mahan kosh, and then I made my own words in english. other people use the same words in English as they are in gurmukhi. that stops the english speaking person from trying to read or understand sggs. When I started to translate. I had a chance to discuss with people. Sikh scholars did not offer any help. They were too busy in their ego. One english speaking man asked me if he wants to read sggs and does not know normal punjabi what should he do. i thought for a while and then decided to make my own words and i did, that made the sggs readable to the english only speaking people. the words may not be exact as sahib singh or sgpc would like but they convey the meaning. as such anhad sabad i made it divine music, gurmukh guru-willed, manmukh self-willed and many more they may not be what sgpc or punjabi university want and could not convert for one hundred years. Now is the time for scholars to make their own words and eventually come up with mutually accepted words by taking help from mahankosh
     
  15. Original

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    ..don't let that deter you from nam simran, evolution will advance what it favours to be conducive to the greater good.
    ...definitely ! Look how we're connected to the "word" [Gurbani] thx to the wonders of information society.
    ..depends how you see the glass, half full or half empty ! There are pros n cons, but as a Sikh, Guru Arjun Dev Ji nipped in the bud, thus, "tera bhanna metha lagay" [whatever n whosoever, you're the doer O' Lord].
    ..how would you define reality ? The old boundaries of private life have shifted. The more the technology has allowed us to share, the more we've embraced it. Social media brings out confessions, inclinations, orientations, etc, allows us to sell and promote convictions and personalities and relate to the "oneness" in the many right across the globe via social networking. The veil between private life n piublic life is growing thin and becoming more transparent as an open book, no more secrets. Moreover, the compression of time and space [www], stretching of relations across vast distances and the spirit of globalisation is perhaps bringing humankind to that ultimate unity.
    ..huh ! burden ? Look at the strengths of the Information Society, we no longer rely on agriculture and manufacturing to fuel the economy, it is knowledge and information that is at the economic core. The availablity of information is facilitated by new communications technologies which some see as revolutionising society [or mordernising].
    ..these social dynamics are inherent to social organisations and in some respects necessary.
    ...Guruship is eternal, meaning Guru was, Guru is and Guru will be, one need to rise to that level of awareness and understanding.
    ..pls elaborate, invisible oppressor !
    ....humankind has advanced beyong belief, approaching a more complete fulfillment of that great and sacred mission which has to be performed in this world, hence the reason why humankind was created after the image of God. Humankind has to discover the laws by which God governs the creation and by making these laws the standards of their action to conquer nature for their own use, thus themselves, divine instruments.
    ...the real you, meaning God !

    Goodnight -
     
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  16. swarn bains

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    how do i find u o original like original advise <Personal information snipped - Admin Singh>
     
  17. Admin Singh

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    Off-Topic

    Swarn Ji, please contact the member by private conversation by clicking on the username @Original > A popup opens > Start a Conversation. Thank you
     
  18. Original

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    Sir

    You're wonderful and a beautiful man. My academic qualifications can never equal the wisdom and the passion you have for Gurbani. It is not how you write or what you write, it is that you write and that too of the beauty of God. You're never far from Waheguru.

    Please continue to write for the salvation of your own soul and for the redemption of others.

    ...jo manga thukar apna sa
    soi soi deva, Nanak das mukh sa jo bola en'an oon'ah sach hoovay.

    Swarn Ji sat is with you, why worry !

    Take care....
     
  19. Admin Singh

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    ਜੋ ਮਾਗਹਿ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਤੇ ਸੋਈ ਸੋਈ ਦੇਵੈ ॥
    जो मागहि ठाकुर अपुने ते सोई सोई देवै ॥
    Jo māgėh ṯẖākur apune ṯe so▫ī so▫ī ḏevai.
    Whatever I ask for from my Lord and Master, he gives that to me.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸੁ ਮੁਖ ਤੇ ਜੋ ਬੋਲੈ ਈਹਾ ਊਹਾ ਸਚੁ ਹੋਵੈ ॥੨॥੧੪॥੪੫॥
    नानक दासु मुख ते जो बोलै ईहा ऊहा सचु होवै ॥२॥१४॥४५॥
    Nānak ḏās mukẖ ṯe jo bolai īhā ūhā sacẖ hovai. ||2||14||45||
    Whatever the Lord's slave Nanak utters with his mouth, proves to be true, here and hereafter. ||2||14||45|

    SGGS, page/ਪੰਨਾ 681, Line/ਸਤਰ 19
     
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  20. Original

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    ....yes, thank you for that correction AS Ji ! Much of what I transcribe by way of Punjabi romanising is by heart and stand always to be corrected.

    Once again - much obliged !
     
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