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Concept Of Naam Simran In Gurmat

Discussion in 'Essays on Sikhism' started by Gyani Jarnail Singh, Feb 5, 2005.

  1. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    The very answer to the question "What is Simran?" depends on the answer to the question "What is Mukti?", for the destination and path are correlated.

    If Mukti is an internal mystical union with God, then the path of repetition should help. Jewish mystics are known to succeed with their experiences of Throne Mysticism, Christian mystics have sucessfully made internal journeys through The Dark Night of the Soul, the Indian Jogis have their internal experiences as can be found in Patanjili's Yog Sutras and Gorakh Bodh. But this is not GN's[GN=Guru Nanak or the Sabad Guru SGGS] path to Mukti.

    To GURU NANAK an internal mystical experience is just another pleasure of the Mind, it is "Avra Saad".

    He has recommended Vichar and Keertan, and both are enemies of meditation---Vichar requires a thinking Mind, a fresh Mind that should ask questions. But meditation requires a Mind that doesnot talk; meditation requires a Mind that concentrates on a particular word only. And is Keertan not a disturbance to meditation? It is! There is a Gurudwara in Mohali where Keertan was replaced by "Satnam Waheguru". To my surprise it was a big success, and to my expectations all Keertan addicts stopped participating in it. However, good sense prevailed and after one year the Keertan was restored because the initial craze for "Satnam Waheguru" could not be "sustained".

    Keertan is taboo in Jog. Bodhis also donot have a tradition of Keertan.

    Mohammed banned all music because it is a hindrance to counting the 99 names of Allah.

    But when it comes to Sikhism, Keertan is central.

    OUR MUKTI IS NOT A MYSTICAL EXPERIENCE WITH THE "COSMIC". Our Mukti is through Naam and "Waheguru" is an expression of thankfulness to GN.

    "Waheguru" is spontaneous, an Anhad Naad.

    Naam is not an activity. It is another word for a sustainable way of life[the Gurmukh's]. It is not that a Gurmukh is not close to God, and it is not that he doesnot remember God. Only the path is different, and emotions are different. A guiltless Gurmukh listens the Keertan, does social work and the[resultant] pleasure maketh him utter WAH-E-GURU.

    A Gurmukh is a Sewadar who works for others, who socializes. A Gurmukh is concerned with making this world a better place. He is a person with a mission. He sees God in His creation, in the poor, in the needy. It is all Vismaad for him, and he sings Keertan to express that Vismaad and ecstatic love. His God is somewhere there. He loves Him like a mother who loves and yet never uses the artifices of rosary, idol or repetition to love her child. A lover uses Waris Shah's "Heer" to experience the bond with her NRI husband, and not a rosary or cassette to repeat his name!

    The SGGS passages on Naam are to be understood in this light. GN has redefined the duo of "Ram" and "Naam" to Omnipresence and an ethical way of living respectively.

    Leading the life of a Gurmukh is Mukti, but that is not easy, it requires a constant Vichaar, and yet Gurmukhta is not for all, because most stray.

    AMARDEEP SINGH
     
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  3. Sher Singh

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    Re: Concept Of Naam Simran In Gurmatt !1

    Good article Jarnail Singh Ji!

    "He has recommended Vichar and Keertan, and both are enemies of meditation---Vichar requires a thinking Mind, a fresh Mind that should ask questions. But meditation requires a Mind that doesnot talk; meditation requires a Mind that concentrates on a particular word only. And is Keertan not a disturbance to meditation?"

    i dont quite agree with this. Veechar and Meditation arent enemies. Veechar is a good thing because of teh ability to teach, etc. And meditation is good because we well... meditate! No kirtan in not a disturbance to meditation, why you may ask? because kirtan is like meditation, for Sikhs meditation isnt sitting tehre all quiet like Buddhists, meditation is when we do paath and pray, so whats kirtan? kirtan is the same thing, but with music in the background. We all love music no matter what, so kirtan is an added bonus to Sikhs because it has music in it!
     
  4. Neutral Singh

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    Re: Concept Of Naam Simran In Gurmatt !1

    Sher Singh Ji, i think you misread the message a bit... Amardeep Ji further explains his statements like this -->

    So, that seems to be exactly the same what you are saying :)
     
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  5. japjisahib04

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    Gianiji


    Waheguru ji ka khalsa,
    Waheguru ji ki fateh


    You have said right but presented in mannner which only confuses learner.

    Gurbani tells us, Gurmukh japiye laie dhayan. It means that gurmukh while living by the principles and teachings of the Gurus when chants His glorious virtues or does keertan single minded, it is meditation. Gurbani further tells us, " Sabbh tai uttam har ki katha -Naam sunat dhard dukh latha - God speach is the highest And hearing the Naam, pain and sorrows are removed, then mind by itself is fresh and from worries" I hope it clears the contradiction. Since Gurbani tells us, "kalyug mai keertan pardhana. Therefore through the keertan possiblities of merging with God is speedy. If this keertan is not profession but devotion and this devotion turns to dhayana. And this dhayana becomes the cause of union.

    Regards Sahni Mohinder
     
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  6. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

    Gyani Ji referred "If Mukti is an internal mystical union with God, then the path of repetition should help."
    The path of repetition, in my view, may not help to achieve Mukti.
    The destination is Mukti where the path of repetition ends.

    He wrote further "To GURU NANAK an internal mystical experience is just another pleasure of the Mind, it is 'Avra Saad'."
    I feel that GURU NANAK Ji's internal mystical experience is 'Avra Saad' but it is not another pleasure of the mind.

    His next sentence is about GURU NANAK Dev JI. "He has recommended Vichar and Keertan, and both are enemies of meditation . . ."
    I found in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji the word 'Beechaar' for more than four hundred times. Every time it shows its importance.
    In my experience, Beechaar and Kirtan both are friends of meditation (Dhyana).
    Perhaps the writer is mixing the word 'Beechaar' (contemplation) with 'Soch' (mind's thoughts).

    Gurbani says "gur poorai pooree mat hai poorai sabad beechaaraa." SGGS page 1009
    "so jogee ih jugat pachhaanai gur kai sabad beechaaree jee-o. " SGGS page 1016
    "sabad beechaar raam ras chaakhi-aa naanak saach pateenay." SGGS page 1126
    "gurmat khojeh sabad beechaaraa." SGGS page 1175


    Gyani Ji also referred that "Waheguru" is spontaneous, an Anhad Naad.
    I am surprised why our Gurus never said this.

    He also explains "Naam is not an activity."
    Is Naam a non activity? Please elaborate.

    In the next paragraph he referred "A Gurmukh is a Sewadar who works for others, who socializes. A Gurmukh is concerned with making this world a better place."
    Such beliefs make ego strong. Since when a Gurmukh is concerned with making God's creation a better place?
    A true Gurmukh follows only God's Hukum and remains humble.

    Respectfully.


    Balbir Singh
     
  7. japjisahib04

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    Guru Nanak says to break the cycle of death and rebirth; selfless service and meditation on Naam are necessary. He says social service does not guarantee the inner experience of the Master within. If that were true then all social workers would have got their liberation and guided mankind. He says just service gives a sense of superiority and this leads to self-image whereas ‘simran’ as a total surrender works as eraser of ego. It is a human attitude. The moment they give something or do a favor, they think they are different from other and expect different treatment.

    Thus we may serve as many patients, construct hospitals, schools and earned a good name and honour, but if this service has not touched the subtleness and then risen to Naam Simraan and awakened our mind, we are not going to break cycle of death and rebirth and thus will be born again and again to stay away from God.

    Therefore in order to subdue the ego, Gurbani instructs us to do naam simran alongwith.
    Regards Sahni Mohinder
     
  8. kirtangurbani

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    Kind Attn:japjisahib04


    Waheguru ji ka khalsa,
    Waheguru ji ki fateh

    Sahni Mohinder Sahib ji has written that If this keertan is not profession but devotion and this devotion turns to dhayana. And this dhayana becomes the cause of union.

    Yes, This is true and I request them to write more details on "keertan is not profession but devotion"

    What is profession and what is devotion?

    Regards, Saini A S
     
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  9. japjisahib04

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    Dear Saini Ji

    Profession is a kirti whereas devotion and dhayan is kirat. Kirti is our family and needy people around, a social service but bhakti and dhayan is for ourselves only to break the cycle of reincarnation.

    Regards Sahni Mohinder
     
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  10. sukhpaal

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    how about being insulted in naam simran?
    Please read the new thread post! Thankyou
     
  11. japjisahib04

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    Can u elborate further. Also please give me url of new thread

    Regards Sahni Mohinder
     
  12. sukhpaal

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    #11 sukhpaal, Jul 3, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 3, 2015
  13. kirtangurbani

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    Dear Sahni Sahib,

    Profession is a kirti whereas devotion and dhayan is kirat.

    Kirti is our family and needy people around, a social service

    but

    bhakti and dhayan is for ourselves only to break the cycle of reincarnation.


    What is Kirtan?

    WHo is Professional kirtani?

    Can Professional Kirtani do Namm Simran?

    Is it right to choose Kirtan as profession with devotion towards Guru Sahib?

    Please clear this all!!!!

    So what is devotion?

    and

    What is Kirtan?
     
  14. drkhalsa

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    My answer is offcourse yes
    this will be wonderfull you can do dyan and kirti at the same time

    but as it has been always hard for man to do bhagati but in this case man will loose bhagati if he didnt put enough effort and what will be left is omly kirt and that tis the reason in present day day their are many kirtania but few who are also bhagats
    As practically man thinks that he can live without bhagati but cant live without food ( doing work ..kirt) so he continues his kirt and leaves behind bhagati
    but still I think A kirtinia still stands a better chance for bhagati as he is contact with Guru I BAni Daily as part of kirti and he can get coniuos stimulus to move on path of sikhi and bhagati

    Jatinder Singh
     
  15. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

    Jatinder Singh Ji wrote "but still I think A kirtinia still stands a better chance for bhagati as he is contact with Guru I BAni Daily as part of kirti and he can get coniuos stimulus to move on path of sikhi and bhagati."

    Imagine a circle. All points on the circumference are at equal distance from the center. It does not matter. Two points may seem to be totally opposite, i.e., 180° apart.

    Imagine a sphere. All points are a part of the sphere. No one of those is the center. Also, not a single point can exist without the center. All molecules have their own center, though.
    All centers have one and the same property.

    Guru Nanak Ji sang in Shloka after Japu Ji Sahib "karmee aapo aapnee kay nayrhai kay door." SGGS page 8

    The next Vaak from Gurdev is "jinee naam Dhi-aa-i-aa ga-ay maskat ghaal."

    Perhaps you can give a reference from Gurbani where Gurdev has sung a song that meant "jinee keertan gaa-i-aa ga-ay maskat ghaal."

    Please be sure. I am not writing anything against Keertan.
    I wish to make all contemplate one thing who read this post. Keertan is the result of true Simran.

    All should come to know Simran with any mean. It may be any kind of begging or the cost of ego.

    All, what Keertanias or Kathaa Vaachaks give as a show on the stage is not the Simran, in my experience.

    Love.

    Balbir Singh
     
  16. kirtangurbani

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    Dear Balbir Singh ji

    KIRTAN AND KIRTANI SINGH

    Here is Saini from Toronto, Canada. I have some questions in mind. I have gifted with the Kirtan (Singing Gurbani Shabads). I want to develop it more as I love Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I wish to devote more and more time towards Kirtan and Katha. I usually listen to Gurmakh Pyaray Sant Singh Ji Maskeen, Joshi veerji from Khanna,Bhai Harjinder SIngh Sri Nagar and most famous Kirtani Jatthas.

    Question is : What should be the qualities in Kirtani of Guru Ghar?

    Can Katha and Kirtan be made as profession if there is devotion in it towards Nam Simran, guru Sahib Ji?

    I need vichar of Sangat in this context, so that I can proceed.

    Can somebody help me to become Good Kathavachak and Kirtania........which is fully devotional?

    Regards

    A S Saini
     
  17. Archived_member2

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    Satsriakal to all and A.S.Saini Ji!
    All is God gifted. A singer realizes this his way.

    It is nice to know that you wish to become a good Keertania and Kathaa Vaachak.

    Come to know true Simran. You will enjoy the ecstasy of Keertan or Kathaa in its true sense.

    Without receiving true Simran, Kathaa and Keertan are efforts to express the taste which one has never tasted.

    I hope you don't want to become an imitator by expressing a mixture of thoughts or styles from others.

    I wish you the great development through Simran.


    Balbir Singh
     
  18. japjisahib04

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    Bhai Sahibffice:eek:ffice" /><O:p></O:p>

    Fateh<O:p</O:p

    The professional Raagis or Keertanias sing Baani most pleasantly but invariably they do not listen to what they are singing.

    Actually, whatever the tongue is reading or reciting, the ears should hear intuitively. We must focus our dhayan on listening and on the word so it becomes awareness. Gurbani state, “gurmukh japiyee laey dhiyana - what we need is dhyaan while chanting.<O:p</O:p

    <O:p</O:p
    The essence of Keertan lies in effective delivery of the inherent message of the Sabd, using Raag and Taal as a medium. The medium must not dominate the essence. Further if Keertan Dhuni is coming from recesses of soul and where the singer is immersed in the meaning of the Sabd then and then only real keertan is done. Like “Eisa Keertan kar mann meray. eeehaan ohaaan jo naal teray. – Sing in a way that this Keertan accompanies one every where.” – Guru Granth ang.236.4. Therefore the bani very forcefully and emphytically says that the gurbani leaves its real impact only if sung in the specific raag of the time. <TT>Remember Gurshabad is Brahm and ‘Antar khohtaa Amrit bhariyaa, Shabadey kaadh pieyh panihari. – deep within the well of heart is filled with Amrit, pull it up and drink it using the boel of Sabd.’ – Guru Granth ang.570.18.</TT>

    <O:p</O:p
    Gurbani calls praising Akal Purakh by keertan is a priceless diamond and again but path of devotion is with total surrender (from tan, man, dhan). A Gurmukh is a Sewadar who works for others, who socializes. A Gurmukh is concerned with making this world a better place. He is a person with a mission. He sees Akal Purakh in His creation, in the poor, in the needy. It is all Vismaad for him, and he sings Keertan to express that Vismaad and ecstatic love. His Akal Purakh is somewhere there. He loves Him like a mother who loves and yet never uses the artifices of rosary, idol or repetition to love her child. Without keertan a gursikh is dead corpose.<O:p></O:p>

    Regards Sahni Mohinder
     
  19. kirtangurbani

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    Dear Sahni Sahib and Balbir SIngh Ji

    Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa
    Waheguru Ji Ki fateh

    S. Sahni Sahib
    You have given an excellent explanation. But should one be professional Kirtania or Nishkam?

    According to my views - Nishkam is only waheguru. You can see many people which are advertising Nishkam Kirtania but actually they r making money by other means like running charitable organisations!!!!!!!and cheating people under the Title of Niskamata and under the name of Charitable!!!!!!!!!

    Taking money is bad or good if one is fully devotional towards Guru Sahib?
    And How much one Kirtania should take : I think as per Sharda of Sanagt and rules of Gurdwara Sahib or Sanagt inviting the Kirtania - No demand!!!!!!!should be there. The only demand should be that One should respect Guru Sahib in all rspects!!!!!!!!!!!

    Yes, Kirtania himself must listen to the Kirtan, then only he can enjoy the grace of GOD!!!!

    Sahni Sahib, u r giving excellent exlanation, please continue this.

    Yes, S balbir Singh ji , I am thankful to u too.
    You have also given very good presentation to my questions!!

    A S Saini
     
  20. kirtangurbani

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    no reply long time ? why so dear sahni ji and balbir s jeo
     
  21. japjisahib04

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    Taking money is bad or good if one is fully devotional towards Guru Sahib?
    And How much one Kirtania should take : I think as per Sharda of Sanagt and rules of Gurdwara Sahib or Sanagt inviting the Kirtania - No demand!!!!!!!should be there. The only demand should be that One should respect Guru Sahib in all rspects!!!!!!!!!!!

    Dear Saini Sahib

    Guru Nanak's teachings does not stop you to make money and live a good an honourable life. When Gurbani tells us, hsMidAw KylµidAw pYnµidAw KwvMidAw ivcyhovy mkiq While laughing, playing, dressing and eating, he is liberated. " - Guru Granth ang.522.10. So we must also like other go for branded clothes, cars, eat in five star hotel if we can afford. There is no restriction or limit to make money so long it is earned sincerely and we share ten percent with those who are deprived off with the facilities to make money.
    Regards Sahni Mohinder
     

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