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Comparing Saints with Scholars

Discussion in 'Gurmat Vichaar' started by Pyramid, Mar 20, 2008.

  1. Pyramid

    Pyramid
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    Compairing a Saint and a Scholar

    Some people make efforts to compare Saints with the Scholars.

    Gurbani Translations are done by many people, some are scholarly very good translators. If we read them we can hardly find any flaw in the use of language in the translations based on literature and grammer rules. Like Bhai Veer Singh Ji and Professor Sahib Singh Ji for punjabi translations. In Bhai Veer Singh Ji's Translations we feel a lot of ruhani rass, In Sahib Singh Ji's translations it comes and goes. Both are right in their own way, they are sharing their understanding of Gurbani. But if we start comparing them, what we will find-absolutely nothing, it will be a waste of time and energy. Comparing their translations will be more like one is trying to evaluate who got more spiritual knowledge!



    Same is with other available translations of Gurbani. How can one be better than the other, UNLESS TRANSLATOR IS NOT FOLLOWING GRAMMER AND PUNJABI(and other languages used) LANGUAGE USE IN LITERATURE OVER TIME and OTHER LANGUAGE RULES. But those translations are self explainatory, and can be singled out easily.

    Otherwise the comparison of translations is like somebody is trying to pick-who is the real saint? It appears more like they are trying to compare Gurbani Wisdom with the translator's wisdom. It is like playing: let us see who knows Gurbani in its totality? Does the evaluator of translations have that capability? If he/she is that smart and wise, does he/she even need to read the translations?
    I wonder why Guru Ji didn't supply the translations:roll:. Why Guru Sahib stresses on reading and singing Gurbani, Why Guru Granth sahib Ji is our Guru:)? Why He stresses on following the truth but not the translators or evaluators of Gurbani? Why Gurbani is all in raags? - to sing and sing Gurbani- repeating it over and over again so that it delves deep within us in its purest form.

    Comparing Gurbani with the translation is like comparing Guru/Saint with a scholar. Can they both tell us the same thing! -never.

    I shared with the sangat what I have.
    Good Bey and Good Luck.
    Guru Nanak is always with us.

    Tuhada Das
    Papi Yograj
     
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  3. ekmusafir_ajnabi

    ekmusafir_ajnabi
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    **********************

    Do not take offence of what I am going to ask.
    Can you describe me the pain your wife went through whey she gave birth to your children? I do not mean that literally. If you were asked to quantify her pain, could you do that?. Was it painful, very painful, extremely painful. Certainly not. But if she was asked this question directly, she will tell you how she feels and if rattled the cage too much She will eventually tell one why don't you switch places with me and find it out for yourself.

    Such is spirituality. Try it and find out. The Saint is undergoing the "labour" and can tell you better than the scholar. The scholar may come closer to the meaning but the Saint will hit the bullseye.

    I wonder why Guru Ji didn't supply the translations?

    The understanding of Gurbani is available as Gurparsad. It is akin to the alms that a sadhu collects from others houses. It allows him to dispell his ego. Similarly Guru ji want us to dispell our Egos in the process of receiving Gurparsad. Guru ji want us to learn humility.

    Why Guru Sahib stresses on reading and singing Gurbani?

    So that we can realise that there is someone better than us. So that the message can sink into our sub-conscious. It is a continuous reminder to our Mind to change it ways.

    Why Guru Granth sahib Ji is our Guru?

    Spirituality is an individual journey. So that you can read the truth at your leisure, develop in your own time and measure oneself progress with a true yardstick.

    Why He stresses on following the truth but not the translators or evaluators of Gurbani?

    This where you have gone wrong. It does not say that. Guru ji say that sit in the company of the Saint, the Gursikhs and the Brahamgyani. So that you can learn from example, thier experience etc.


    Why Gurbani is all in raags? - to sing and sing Gurbani- repeating it over and over again that it delves deep within us in its purest form.

    Gurbani is in Raags for a very good reason. Each raag follows a set of rules that keeps the flow of the theme. It sets a mood and frame of mind that can be prolonged infinitely so as to aid our meditation and concentration. The Taal sets the rythm and is complementary. The repition allows the message to reach from our conscious into our sub-conscious and puts things in automode.

    Comparing Gurbani with the translation is like comparing Guru/Saint with a scholar. Can they both tell us the same thing?

    This has already been answered.

    I said it all, what I wanted to say.
    Good Bey and Good Luck.
    Guru Nanak is always with us.

    You have said nothing and if that is all you know then you have a lot to learn. So be a student and improve you life rather than *****************

    Tuhada Das
    Papi Yograj

    Pretence does not bear fruit.

    ekmusafir_ajnabi
     
    #2 ekmusafir_ajnabi, Mar 20, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 20, 2008
  4. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    I know several women who experienced very little pain when giving birth. It is all a matter of God-given physical characteristics -- bone structure. Birth was easy labor for them. Other women experience the opposite.

    Same thing with relationships with God. For some people it is a struggle, an inner battle, it is so hard for them to reconcile. Eventually they do. History is full of such examples. For others the path was not as hard. From childhood their spiritual gifts were obvious even to strangers. God given spiritual characteristics.
     
  5. singhbj

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    Waheguru ji ka khalsa
    Waheguru ji ki fateh

    ਸੰਗਿ ਚਾਲਸਿ ਤੇਰੈ ਧਨਾ
    संगि न चालसि तेरै धना ॥
    Sang na cẖālas ṯėrai ḏẖanā.
    Your wealth shall not go with you;


    ਤੂੰ ਕਿਆ ਲਪਟਾਵਹਿ ਮੂਰਖ ਮਨਾ
    तूं किआ लपटावहि मूरख मना ॥
    Ŧūʼn ki­ā laptāvahi mūrakẖ manā.
    why do you cling to it, you fool?

    ਸੁਤ ਮੀਤ ਕੁਟੰਬ ਅਰੁ ਬਨਿਤਾ
    सुत मीत कुट्मब अरु बनिता ॥
    Suṯ mīṯ kutamb ar baniṯā.
    Children, friends, family and spouse -

    ਇਨ ਤੇ ਕਹਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਕਵਨ ਸਨਾਥਾ
    इन ते कहहु तुम कवन सनाथा ॥
    In ṯė kahhu ṯum kavan sanāthā.
    who of these shall accompany you?

    ਰਾਜ ਰੰਗ ਮਾਇਆ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ
    राज रंग माइआ बिसथार ॥
    Rāj rang mā­i­ā bisthār.
    Power, pleasure, and the vast expanse of Maya -

    ਇਨ ਤੇ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਵਨ ਛੁਟਕਾਰ
    इन ते कहहु कवन छुटकार ॥
    In ṯė kahhu kavan cẖẖutkār.
    who has ever escaped from these?

    ਅਸੁ ਹਸਤੀ ਰਥ ਅਸਵਾਰੀ
    असु हसती रथ असवारी ॥
    As hasṯī rath asvārī.
    Horses, elephants, chariots and pageantry -

    ਝੂਠਾ ਡੰਫੁ ਝੂਠੁ ਪਾਸਾਰੀ
    झूठा ड्मफु झूठु पासारी ॥
    Jẖūṯẖā damf jẖūṯẖ pāsārī.
    false shows and false displays.

    ਜਿਨਿ ਦੀਏ ਤਿਸੁ ਬੁਝੈ ਬਿਗਾਨਾ
    जिनि दीए तिसु बुझै न बिगाना ॥
    Jin ḏī­ė ṯis bujẖai na bigānā.
    The fool does not acknowledge the One who gave this;

    ਨਾਮੁ ਬਿਸਾਰਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਪਛੁਤਾਨਾ ॥੫॥
    नामु बिसारि नानक पछुताना ॥५॥
    Nām bisār Nānak pacẖẖuṯānā. ||5||
    forgetting the Naam, O Nanak, he will repent in the end. ||5||

    ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਤੂੰ ਲੇਹਿ ਇਆਨੇ
    गुर की मति तूं लेहि इआने ॥
    Gur kī maṯ ṯūʼn lėhi i­ānė.
    Take the Guru's advice, you ignorant fool;

    ਭਗਤਿ ਬਿਨਾ ਬਹੁ ਡੂਬੇ ਸਿਆਨੇ
    भगति बिना बहु डूबे सिआने ॥
    Bẖagaṯ binā baho dūbė si­ānė.
    without devotion, even the clever have drowned.

    ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਹੁ ਮਨ ਮੀਤ
    हरि की भगति करहु मन मीत ॥
    Har kī bẖagaṯ karahu man mīṯ.
    Worship the Lord with heart-felt devotion, my friend;

    ਨਿਰਮਲ ਹੋਇ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੋ ਚੀਤ
    निरमल होइ तुम्हारो चीत ॥
    Nirmal ho­ė ṯumĥāro cẖīṯ.
    your consciousness shall become pure.

    ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ
    चरन कमल राखहु मन माहि ॥
    Cẖaran kamal rākẖo man māhi.
    Enshrine the Lord's Lotus Feet in your mind;


    ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕੇ ਕਿਲਬਿਖ ਜਾਹਿ
    जनम जनम के किलबिख जाहि ॥
    Janam janam kė kilbikẖ jāhi.
    the sins of countless lifetimes shall depart.

    ਆਪਿ ਜਪਹੁ ਅਵਰਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵਹੁ
    आपि जपहु अवरा नामु जपावहु ॥
    Āp japahu avrā nām japāvhu.
    Chant the Naam yourself, and inspire others to chant it as well.

    ਸੁਨਤ ਕਹਤ ਰਹਤ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਵਹੁ
    सुनत कहत रहत गति पावहु ॥
    Sunaṯ kahaṯ rahaṯ gaṯ pāvhu.
    Hearing, speaking and living it, emancipation is obtained.

    ਸਾਰ ਭੂਤ ਸਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਉ
    सार भूत सति हरि को नाउ ॥
    Sār bẖūṯ saṯ har ko nā­o.
    The essential reality is the True Name of the Lord.

    ਸਹਜਿ ਸੁਭਾਇ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਉ ॥੬॥
    सहजि सुभाइ नानक गुन गाउ ॥६॥
    Sahj subẖā­ė Nānak gun gā­o. ||6||
    With intuitive ease, O Nanak, sing His Glorious Praises. ||6||

    ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵਤ ਤੇਰੀ ਉਤਰਸਿ ਮੈਲੁ
    गुन गावत तेरी उतरसि मैलु ॥
    Gun gāvaṯ ṯėrī uṯras mail.
    Chanting His Glories, your filth shall be washed off.

    ਬਿਨਸਿ ਜਾਇ ਹਉਮੈ ਬਿਖੁ ਫੈਲੁ
    बिनसि जाइ हउमै बिखु फैलु ॥
    Binas jā­ė ha­umai bikẖ fail.
    The all-consuming poison of ego will be gone.

    ਹੋਹਿ ਅਚਿੰਤੁ ਬਸੈ ਸੁਖ ਨਾਲਿ
    होहि अचिंतु बसै सुख नालि ॥
    Hohi acẖinṯ basai sukẖ nāl.
    You shall become carefree, and you shall dwell in peace.

    ਸਾਸਿ ਗ੍ਰਾਸਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਮਾਲਿ
    सासि ग्रासि हरि नामु समालि ॥
    Sās garās har nām samāl.
    With every breath and every morsel of food, cherish the Lord's Name.

    ਛਾਡਿ ਸਿਆਨਪ ਸਗਲੀ ਮਨਾ
    छाडि सिआनप सगली मना ॥
    Cẖẖād si­ānap saglī manā.
    Renounce all clever tricks, O mind.

    ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਸਚੁ ਧਨਾ
    साधसंगि पावहि सचु धना ॥
    Sāḏẖsang pāvahi sacẖ ḏẖanā.
    In the Company of the Holy, you shall obtain the true wealth.

    ਹਰਿ ਪੂੰਜੀ ਸੰਚਿ ਕਰਹੁ ਬਿਉਹਾਰੁ
    हरि पूंजी संचि करहु बिउहारु ॥
    Har pūnjī sancẖ karahu bi­uhār.
    So gather the Lord's Name as your capital, and trade in it.

    ਈਹਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਦਰਗਹ ਜੈਕਾਰੁ
    ईहा सुखु दरगह जैकारु ॥
    Īhā sukẖ ḏargeh jaikār.
    In this world you shall be at peace, and in the Court of the Lord, you shall be acclaimed.

    ਸਰਬ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਏਕੋ ਦੇਖੁ
    सरब निरंतरि एको देखु ॥
    Sarab niranṯar ėko ḏėkẖ.
    See the One permeating all;

    ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਲੇਖੁ ॥੭॥
    कहु नानक जा कै मसतकि लेखु ॥७॥
    Kaho Nānak jā kai masṯak lėkẖ. ||7||
    says Nanak, your destiny is pre-ordained. ||7||

    Source: Sri Granth: Sri Guru Granth Sahib

    Waheguru ji ka khalsa
    Waheguru ji ki fateh
     
    #4 singhbj, Mar 22, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2008
  6. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
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    I think there is some merit in comparing translations, as has been pointed out by my colleagues on eseveral occaisions the translation is down to the ability of the scholar and their knowledge of Gurmukhi/Persian/Sanskrit and English. If either one of these is poor the result will be misunderstanding.

    Let me give you an example. On another debate we debate the word "Bismil". According to some in Bani it just meant "Kill", however some of my colleagues pointed out, that is correct in one sense HOWEVER Bismil means to sacrifice something/someone in the name of God, coming from Bismillah. Now in the same sentence if we replace the word Kill with sacrificed in the name of God it connates a different meaning. In the first "to kill" is just that killed dead, however, Bismillah is to do with a religious ritual, a sacrifice in the name of God. This is why we must check translations.

    On a side note our Guru were scholars. The word Guru itself means teacher which is a person who has reached heights of scholary that he/she is able to teach others. The Guru's were all highly educated and in todays society would have Doctorates for their level of academia. The Guru's were however, higher than mere academics, but do not forget that they must have paid some weight to academia since they were highly educated themselves.
     
  7. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Randip ji

    So wonderful of you to point this out,

    On a side note our Guru were scholars. The word Guru itself means teacher which is a person who has reached heights of scholary that he/she is able to teach others. The Guru's were all highly educated and in todays society would have Doctorates for their level of academia. The Guru's were however, higher than mere academics, but do not forget that they must have paid some weight to academia since they were highly educated themselves.

    Out of love for our Gurus, we romanticize them. They are, in the mythic version, holy men without a context. The historical Gurus were, to me anyway, much more awesome than the romantcised version. They were duly authentic participants in a long, rich intellectual history that was and is northern India. Such a good point you make.
     
  8. Sikh80

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    It is an interesting post. All saints and God men have paved and widened the fruitful ways for us to meet the ultimate truth that is immutable and unchangeable. They have shown the path in their own languages and methods. Saint is an insignia of a person of a higher spiritual level and, probably, the one who has realized the God, the truth, the ultimate reality that is there immutable and almost imperishable.

    Saints who could communicate effectively could show us the way and those who could
    Not do so always required the interpreters for explaining the concept of the limitless and the fathomless.

    How to put the limitless into a few limited words have must have been, probably, the biggest achievements of all the saints who prescribed the essential edicts of the philosophy of religions. The limitless was reduced in the bounds of the limits of the words.

    It is for this reason that there was a language that was employed by the sages for communicating as to what was done. The concepts, the moods and the shades of the thoughts are generally not reflected in the language that is the biggest deficiency of any human language. An apple will only be a concept. I cannot describe you an apple and its color. May be it is red, true, but is it evenly red?
    No it is not and nor is it possible as it is not a painted object. It shall be entering into abstracts if we begin describing the color of an apple. It shall be meaningless as it is not possible.

    We cannot, on account of the deficiency of the languages and their innate characteristics, describe as to what we see. If this is a problem to describe as to what we see it would still be a challenging task to interpret as to what we do not see but where we have to conceptualize the meaning of the words in full context where it has been used and employed by the author. Herculean task. !

    It is this Task that a scholar is doing; trying to debug that is authored in words the context of the particular color of the thought in which it is authored shall never be known. A scholar need not have attained the level that the sages might have had. May be it is not the case as if the scholar is also a realized soul he would prefer to communicate with the help of the selected words as he himself is an author.

    Scholar and saints cannot be compared because of this characteristic. No scholar shall be of the level of the saint. With this background the question can be tackled.

    “I wonder why Guru Ji didn't supply the translations Why Guru Sahib stresses on reading and singing Gurbani, Why Guru Granth sahib Ji is our Guru Why He stresses on following the truth but not the translators or evaluators of Gurbani? Why Gurbani is all in raags? - to sing and sing Gurbani- repeating it over and over again so that it delves deep within us in its purest form.”

    Reading of Gurbani is advised/edicted as repetition makes an impression on the soul. [Gurbani]. Second or the next question is almost like asking as to why Nanaks are our Guru. Guru can be a teacher, a spiritual Master or as has been explained already by Randip ji. Translator is not evaluating Gurbani he is an interpretor as you have stated in the post. Rest of the questions, are to be answered by oneself like why bani is in Raagas. This is not a question at all. [It like saying as to why Bani has been authored. However, every songs and poetry or ‘Ghazals’ should have some form of poetic background hence notes or ragas].I am also not sure whether you are telling us or asking.

    The search of truth continues; as very aptly summed up by Aad ji. Gurus were much above scholars. They are much above that. They should be all God like or God. I pay my regards!

    Thanks for the post Pyramid ji.



    E& O.E
     
    #7 Sikh80, Mar 25, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2008
  9. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    They were saints, they were scholars, and they were realized souls, they were soldiers when the time came, they were poets and musicians, they were fathers and husbands, they were brothers, uncles and cousins. They were friends and comrades; and they were social activists. They were swordsmen, falconers and horsemen. They were farmers. They were simply amazing. And they lived in the real world.
     
  10. Randip Singh

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    I agree with pretty much everything you write, but this point I cannot agree on.
     
  11. AmbarDhara

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    So True Aad Ji.
     
  12. AmbarDhara

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    Thanks for a reminder to follow Gurbani.
     
  13. AmbarDhara

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    This is so true, the fact is that a sadhu/beggar cant afford wasting time in evaluating the coins collected. He does not collect coins for comparison. For him it is a blessing. He throws away any Khotay sikkay (in this case will be the translations and interpretations of Gurbani which are done wrong gramatically and Languistically/eg suao is translated as swah(ash) which are not any hard to recognize)) he receives as those are of no use to him, but all the rest he saves respectfully(he consider all of them a Blessing), and humbly uses them as needed.
     

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