Christianity Christian Watch

[Admin]

These people have made religion an industry... recently, somebody posted a topic on Christianity being USD147Million industry annual worldwide... :}{}{}: but the fact remains more people are leaving Christianity for good than being lured into it.

Is religion all about numbers...? :welcome:

 

[spnadmin]

OK - This is starting to look like Christian outreach. Post deleted.

 

[Satyaban]

I don't feel angry at them, but feel sorry that they have to go to such desperate measures. Clearly these converts need some sort of help in their own right if they cannot tell the difference between decent behaviour and indecent behaviour. The line between respectful and being disrespectful. Christians always say they are tolerant. I do not see this behaviour as being tolerant.

I was originally interested in this, due to the fact such a web site actually existed. I was more surprised that people were so concerned about Christians in India.

I have intimate knowledge about Christians, family members in fact.
For the Evangelicals seeking converts is almost a biological imperative and it disturbs me.:down: The Mormons do it as well as ISKON.

It has been my experience that each religion that claims an exclusivity on the truth is most active at proselytizing. These Christian Evangelicals even try to convert Catholics in South American and their same selling point is used in India, that being prosperity.

I am a bit short on time but wanted to get this posted.

Peace
Satyaban

 

[JimRinX]

SPN jis
What scares me the most about at least some of these Peoples, is that they not only deny most things scientific; like Climate Change, the threat to our entire species posed by Asteroid Impacts, Supervolcanos, and super-bacteria (which sounds 'good' to them, as they like to see such things as evidence that the highly desired 'Judgement Day' is a commin'!); they also promote all things Biblical - including the idea that we (they/We/Us/Them/Whom-So-Ever) must, By Direct Command Of GOD ALMIGHTY, (continue to) "Go forth and prosper."
As you may or may not know, in the Book of Genesis (First book of Old Testiment; Jewish Bible; etc.) God commanded Moses, and the Children of Israel, after years of wandering in the desert looking for the "promised land", to do just that.
Thus; in a manner totaly unlike us practical, enlightened, humanist, not too dogmatic Dharma Practitioners (of all stripes!); these people see the world through the eyes of someone who ignores our impending Environmental Meltdown; who (will - if they can) actively personaly contribute a dozen more hungry mouths to the overstretched world; who looks forward to the meltdown - who thinks they're actually going to "Go To Heaven" after "It finally COMES!"; the ones who have assured me that I shouldn't want to go to College (it's getting late in life, that's the only real reason) a PhD., for "All the knowledge I could ever want, is right there in their Bible!"; the ones who, when they've 'sinned' - and, so they tell you (one moment), you very own sins whenever you sinned too - say to you, "It's O.K., Brother-Man! Jesus DIED for your sins; and through His Death - you've been forgiven!" but then (the next minute), when - after you've rejected them in some way; when you've failed to be 'jingoistic enough'; or, when you've failed to be Dogmatic enough in the practice of your Dogmas - you'll be equally assured that Jesus is going to punnish you/us for the very same sins that we were just told that Jesus had Died to abolish all sin from the world through the Mortal Sacrifice of Gods only Son.
I suspect that the secret to this quandry lies in one of the Catholic Churchs 'Mysteries'!
And I'm not even talkin' about how they confuse everyone (mostly themselves) with their inability to explain simple things like: "If we're all 'Gods Children', then am I not a 'Son of God'?" How could Jesus be "God's only son"? Maybe it's to get you to KILL for Him; In HIS Name?!? I suggest - then I hit them with the 'Resurection (...was a lesson in)=Reincarnation (...from Jesus)' speach, and they try to put me in a Mental Institution!:{;o:
More to come on this one!

 

[spnadmin]

I myself do not understand the fascination with catastrophes and disasters. I really try, believe me. It is irrelevant in the end. In the state of Oregon US there is a field of lava just under the surface and it could blow at any time as pressure builds up. This is actually a plain. The Boring Lava Field.

http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Volcanoes/Oregon/Publications/Allen1975/boring_lava_allen_table.html


While waiting for this disaster to occur, any number of people die of cardiac arrest, are victims of homicide, succumb to the long term effects of diabetes, and so it goes. So what difference does it make to them if the imminent disaster happens or doesn't.

The problem with these hypothesized disasters -- and some of them are not so far-fetched - is the conditions left for survivors. How do they cope and what quality of life is left afterward? The Armageddon scenarios must be deeply embedded in the collective human psyche. I take your point and appreciate your perspective on this.

 

[Satyaban]

Namaste

I am glad I got a cue that new posts were made to this subject because I was short of time for my last post and now have some time.

Not all Christians are Evangelicals and many are quite liberal. In the USA it is the "radical right wingers" who get the attention and have a hold on the Republican Party. Over the last couple of years some church leaders have come to take seriously a Bible passage that grants man dominion over the earth and are in turn responsible for it. So I must be careful not to paint them with too wide a brush.

As in every religion their are zealots and extremists as well as hermetic renunciate types. I consider Jesus to be a guru, a teacher and a saintly man who's teachings surely would lead to liberation. The problem is separating his teaching from those words attributed to him which we would call hype these days. Virgin births and celestial events marking births of kings etc can be found in ancient myths around the globe. However his teachings, mostly through parables more understandable to his contemporaries than us today, reveal deep spiritual principles that I believe all agree on. I also believe the claims of his divinity also apply to you and I.

Allow me to consider zealots that give religions a bad name. At the current time there are many Muslims who have cast a horrible shadow on Islam. Some who claimed the Christmas Tsunami as a direct punishment from Allah. In America there is a fellow who named Pat Robertson who attributed different natural disasters as punishments from God, he even claimed his prayers changed the direction of a hurricane headed for the state of Florida. The Jews are not exempt from this either, one of their great heroes Joshua lead huge massacres documented in the book of Deuteronomy O.T. up to modern day Israel in Gaza and Leb. Hindus have had their mass riots and even Gandhi was assassinated by a Hindu zealot.

Almost anyone with a knowledge of history should be aware of the Spanish inquisition, the Spanish abuses in South America and the South Pacific where some didn't have a word for hate but all accompanied by Catholic priests. However Catholic "liberation theology" did much for the poor in S.A.

Back to the topic I have mailed several letters and emails to Christian organizations asking that they stop their activities in S. Asia from which I did not receive responses.

Although the title of this thread is Christian Watch I think I should belated include that the fundamentalist Muslims also preyed on the Pakistani earthquake victims.

Peace
Satyaban

 

[JimRinX]

SPN jis!
Yes, Satyaban ji, you are, of course, correct. Not all Christians are 'Evangelical', many are quite learned (and many of those 'questors' seem to be looking for me - though not always with such a pleasant outcome! At least for me, a very dogmatically Loving Kind type, that is!); in fact, I just enjoyed Francis Collins (The new Federal Level 'NIH' {Nat. Inst. of Health} Director) book about his gradual transformation from being a "'Scientific Atheist' to 'Believer in Christ'", even though I, like many non-Christian/ex-Christian American Citizens, fear the pervacent creep of 'Pro-Evangelical Christian Anti-Intellectualism' into our schools and political system (we won some fights, during 'W's' Blind Daze); so, it turns out, does he.
On the same vein, Unscientific America has also been a Good Read - and I suspect that there are many Sikh Intellectual Migrants out there who'd enjoy reading it; especially if you want to know how to better 'get through' to these people.
When in Rome, do as Patrician Collins does.
Many of us know we have to fight for our rights - or they'll be trampled on "for our own Salvation" you see (Psssst! That's 'Dogma-Speak' - and it means that they've told themselves that they can - and should - do anything they want to do to you, if you're still amongst the "un-saved" and they think that it'll "Save You"!!!); just as many of us 'caucasian' types have gotten caught up in the Civil Rights war in general - as we think that, it too, represents supporting a Good Cause; in fact, many of us think that it's an even more important - even 'gooder' - cause. than that of committing barbaric acts of ethnic genocide 'In The Name of God', etc., etc., etc..
I should point out that I have a Good Friend in Pastor Steve - who is a Mennonite; I don't think he's visited SPN yet, but I'll try to get him to - I'm trying to convince him that he should be encouraging his flock to consider 'Soul-u-lar Re-Cycling' - a.k.a.: Reincarnation, of course! - instead of a 'single Judgement Day'.
He actually foind some Bible passages that agree with my assertion that the 'soul' (Clear Light; Atman; Qi) does not go through just one 'judgement'before 'going to the heaven most supreme'; but, rather, many incarnations - justlike most of us Dharma Practitioners see things.

Special for: Naranyajot ji
Wow!:shock:
I live in downtown Portland, Or.. If I go to the Zoo/Washington Park Train Station, there's a long plastic tube containing a 300 Meter 'Core' of the material directly above you head.
Many of the alternating bands; specifically: the 'Lunar Surface-looking' ones, that formed the solid gray-black basaltic bands, in-between the 'Verdant Paradise-looking' ones; are labeled "Boring Lavas", and they're associated with 'Mt. Tabor' (where I Picnic, and - thank goodness for Portland - have before 'appeased' the Volcano Gods, by Celebrating The Solistice there with some of my Wiccan Pals!), Powel Butte (where I used to Mountain Bike), and Rocky Butte (which jutts up next to the I-205 Freeway, in East Portland).
And, yes, I am worried about that large pocket of Magma they found connecting Mt. Rannier, Mt. St. Helens, and Mt. Jefferson - as I could once see all of them from my window.
Worse yet, though - especially in Pennsylvania - is The Yellowstone Supervolcano!
N-yah, n-yah; n-yah, n-yah!!! Plooootz!:crazy:
Space, The Final-cum-Current Frontier, will start looking pretty good then, eh?
Would you eat GM Rice grown in a tunnel beneath the Moons Surface, if Yellowstone - which is 50,000+ years overdue for a 'major eruption' - blew?
That would affect everyone, everywhere. It could KILL almost everyone on the Planet.
I DO NOT 'Pray for Deliverance, by The Lord' though; I Pray for GUIDANCE and STRENGTH and that I be FAITHFUL to God ("....by any other name, would still be as Loving and Kind.") and my True Self!
I love Obama for putting on the line as well, with his, "America is not a Christian Nation......" speach; I hope that it sinks in to those who've caused me - and my familly - some very personal harm, over the last twelve years.
Like I said; if they think that they're 'Saving You' - they'll try anything!!!:8-

 

[spnadmin]

JimRinX ji

That is very interesting information about volcanoes.

 

[Satyaban]

faujasingh ji

I would be less than honest if I didn't say that I have serious concerns about your motivation behind your posts.

From a marketing approach you followed a formula used by those "sold only on TV" types. First you introduced the product, in this case the preacher, and then you followed with testimony or in evangelical parlance "witnessing."

As a result my question to you is are you a Sikh converted to Christianity or a Christian by birth or not a Christian at all?

Peace
Satyaban

 

[Sagefrakrobatik]

Some people join Sikhism, Some People Leave Sikhism... sounds fair enough, personal thinking... People joining have a new Sikhi Name, But why People Leaving Sikhism do not change their Sikhi Name... Sounds a conspiracy theory... :advocate: i have never heard of a Sikh convert telling lies so shamelessly against their leftover religion... but rather these converted people have risen and spread their good qualities and deeds.

Who is Manjit Kaur or Pritan Singh Sidhu? Never heard of them before... I wonder how much money was fed into their mouths just to convert and then propagate their falsehood... sounds a pure dirty missionary work... :rofl!!:

Do you have any proof or is this all speculation?

 

[spnadmin]

Sagefrakobatik ji

It is not a matter of speculation on the part of Aman ji. It is a matter of case by case evidence. There are examples of Sikhs who convert to Christianity and they retain their Sikh names. When they appear in web sites, press releases, advocacy, outreach programs, and educational sites on the Internet, then it is only logical to ask why they are representing Christianity using Sikh identities (as given by their names)? Kaur is princiess, and Singh is lion, given by Guru Gobind Singh to his khalsa, as markers of a Sikh identity. A Sikh Identity. Not any other identity. It is a matter of history and still holds after 300 years.

One cannot be a Sikh by faith and also be a member of another religion.

When Manjit Kaur decides she is no longer a Sikh, she is no longer a Kaur. When Pritan Singh decides he is no longer a Sikh, he is no longer a Singh, unless this is a family name which is the case in some ethnic, non-Sikh communities. And if that is the case for Mr. Pritam Singh, then he should not posture as a Sikh, but should clearly identify himself as someone named as "Singh" by birth and make it clear that he is not a Singh by faith. So yes it is confusing and it is misleading and it is suspicious.

 

[JimRinX]

Narayanjot ji
Volcaones? The only Volcano in that post, was ME!
Try as I might, after the last six years, I have only a fist shaking in their faces.....!
My words, though harshly chosen and rudely presented, are actually TRUE though; but then I'm telling this to YOU - when I'm sure that, as a Sikh, you've put up with more of the kind of crud that I'm talking about, than I've ever had to - or will!
I hope to win my aforementioned little 'fight' with the killers i've told you about previosuly; THEN I can get back into a mellower frame of mind, present a more Sage aspect, then get back to my task of bringing the Dharma to all those who NEED IT SO BADLY!
They don't 'see' the Dharma in their own beliefs - though it's there, and has just been 'gunked up' with a bunch of Evil Dogmas; they don;t see 'Good' in people like Us, Narayanjot ji; they see 'Devil People' worshiping some 'Other' God - even though they admit that there's only ONE OF THEM!:8-

 

[spnadmin]

Narayanjot ji
Volcaones? The only Volcano in that post, was ME!
Try as I might, after the last six years, I have only a fist shaking in their faces.....!
My words, though harshly chosen and rudely presented, are actually TRUE though; but then I'm telling this to YOU - when I'm sure that, as a Sikh, you've put up with more of the kind of crud that I'm talking about, than I've ever had to - or will!
I hope to win my aforementioned little 'fight' with the killers i've told you about previosuly; THEN I can get back into a mellower frame of mind, present a more Sage aspect, then get back to my task of bringing the Dharma to all those who NEED IT SO BADLY!
They don't 'see' the Dharma in their own beliefs - though it's there, and has just been 'gunked up' with a bunch of Evil Dogmas; they don;t see 'Good' in people like Us, Narayanjot ji; they see 'Devil People' worshiping some 'Other' God - even though they admit that there's only ONE OF THEM!:8-

JimRinX ji

Actually I do not think that I have had it so bad in this category. Part comes from not having been a Sikh for that long a time, and having converted.Part of it comes from my tendency to walk away when I see trouble coming. The other part I think comes from what I call "my clinical attitude" which is code for ---- I tend to go into a kind of detached observer state and listen with great/real interest to the content and the emotionality without feeling I have to always react to what I see and hear. This has helped me make it through some very interesting scenarios and encounters. It is also a great way to rack up information about all kinds of people. That is in my personal life. Here at SPN most times I really do have to ask myself when reading each new post whether action is called for, because the forum does have rules designed to maintain order.

 

[Sagefrakrobatik]

Sagefrakobatik ji

It is not a matter of speculation on the part of Aman ji. It is a matter of case by case evidence. There are examples of Sikhs who convert to Christianity and they retain their Sikh names. When they appear in web sites, press releases, advocacy, outreach programs, and educational sites on the Internet, then it is only logical to ask why they are representing Christianity using Sikh identities (as given by their names)? Kaur is princiess, and Singh is lion, given by Guru Gobind Singh to his khalsa, as markers of a Sikh identity. A Sikh Identity. Not any other identity. It is a matter of history and still holds after 300 years.

One cannot be a Sikh by faith and also be a member of another religion.

When Manjit Kaur decides she is no longer a Sikh, she is no longer a Kaur. When Pritan Singh decides he is no longer a Sikh, he is no longer a Singh, unless this is a family name which is the case in some ethnic, non-Sikh communities. And if that is the case for Mr. Pritam Singh, then he should not posture as a Sikh, but should clearly identify himself as someone named as "Singh" by birth and make it clear that he is not a Singh by faith. So yes it is confusing and it is misleading and it is suspicious.

That is not saying much. The poster called the Christian convert a liar (Proof)? He also made the allegation that the conversions were for financial gain (proof)?

 

[Admin]

You are talking about proof, i am an eyewitness to this, a few years back, a christian missionary came to my family to convert and offered us an hefty some of money. Can you tell me why these converted people still identify themselves with Sikh names? Why this double standard?

 

[spnadmin]

I repeat my earlier point. If you convert to a Christian religion you are not a Singh or a Kaur because you are not a Sikh any longer. It is misleading and pretentious to continue to use Singh and Kaur. That sums it up.

 

[faujasingh]

thats the sales strategy old bottle new wine, works out fine !

 

[kds1980]

You are talking about proof, i am an eyewitness to this, a few years back, a christian missionary came to my family to convert and offered us an hefty some of money. Can you tell me why these converted people still identify themselves with Sikh names? Why this double standard?

What if a person reconvert back to sikhism after taking the amount in 2-3 days

 

[faujasingh]

so you are thinking of serious business well i dont mind joining you..maybe we can bankrupt them !:happy:

 

[Tejwant Singh]

The Mormon church is very good at bribing people into their part of Christianity. They give money in hopes of converting them to Mormonism. Las Vegas is full of Mormons and they own a lot of strip malls and many other businesses here.