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Charai Ved Hoey Sachiar

Discussion in 'New to Sikhism' started by japjisahib04, Nov 29, 2014.

  1. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    ਮਃ ੧ ॥
    Mėhlā 1.
    First Mehl:
    Page 470, Line 4
    ਸਾਮ ਕਹੈ ਸੇਤੰਬਰੁ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸਚ ਮਹਿ ਆਛੈ ਸਾਚਿ ਰਹੇ ॥
    The Sama Veda says that the Lord Master is robed in white; in the Age of Truth, everyone desired Truth, abided in Truth,

    ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥
    and was merged in the Truth.
    ਰਿਗੁ ਕਹੈ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥
    The Rig Veda says that God is permeating and pervading everywhere;

    ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੇਵਾ ਮਹਿ ਸੂਰੁ ॥
    among the deities, the Lord's Name is the most exalted.
    ਨਾਇ ਲਇਐ ਪਰਾਛਤ ਜਾਹਿ ॥
    Chanting the Name, sins depart;
    ਨਾਨਕ ਤਉ ਮੋਖੰਤਰੁ ਪਾਹਿ ॥
    O Nanak, then, one obtains salvation.

    ਜੁਜ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਰਿ ਛਲੀ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲਿ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਜਾਦਮੁ ਭਇਆ ॥
    In the Jujar Veda, Kaan Krishna of the Yaadva tribe seduced Chandraavali by force.

    ਪਾਰਜਾਤੁ ਗੋਪੀ ਲੈ ਆਇਆ ਬਿੰਦ੍ਰਾਬਨ ਮਹਿ ਰੰਗੁ ਕੀਆ ॥
    He brought the Elysian Tree for his milk-maid, and revelled in Brindaaban.

    ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਬੇਦੁ ਅਥਰਬਣੁ ਹੂਆ ਨਾਉ ਖੁਦਾਈ ਅਲਹੁ ਭਇਆ ॥
    In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Atharva Veda became prominent; Allah became the Name of God.

    ਨੀਲ ਬਸਤ੍ਰ ਲੇ ਕਪੜੇ ਪਹਿਰੇ ਤੁਰਕ ਪਠਾਣੀ ਅਮਲੁ ਕੀਆ ॥
    Men began to wear blue robes and garments; Turks and Pat'haans assumed power.

    ਚਾਰੇ ਵੇਦ ਹੋਏ ਸਚਿਆਰ ॥
    The four Vedas each claim to be true.

    ਪੜਹਿ ਗੁਣਹਿ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਚਾਰ ਵੀਚਾਰ ॥
    Reading and studying them, four doctrines are found.

    ਭਾਉ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਨੀਚੁ ਸਦਾਏ ॥
    With loving devotional worship, abiding in humility,

    ਤਉ ਨਾਨਕ ਮੋਖੰਤਰੁ ਪਾਏ ॥੨॥
    O Nanak, salvation is attained. ||2||

    While going through above sabd, I am wondering whether guru sahib really is referring to the text of religious books of Hindus or raising question how manh can be truthful - the question raised in first pauree of japjisahib. If he really is raising the text of hindus religious books, then are there only four veds? If yes then why guru sahib is telling us, ' ਛਿਅ ਘਰ ਛਿਅ ਗੁਰ ਛਿਅ ਉਪਦੇਸ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸ ਅਨੇਕ ॥੧॥ six veds, six shastra, and six different philosophies but base for all gian to fix dhiyan. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 12.16.

    Since sabd is also referring to satyug, kalyug, duapar age, I will request learn members to contemplate and suggest.
     
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    #1 japjisahib04, Nov 29, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2014
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  3. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Can anyone here get hold of a copy of the Gurbani arths published in the Rozaana Spokesman when it first began a few years ago..i think they are now compiled into a book. In that book Joginder Singh has a different view on the Chey Gur Chey ghar....and why he beleives these are not NUMBERS...as (6). I dont have the book but i do remember vaguely he did discuss this....I think this book is available form RS Trust in Chandigarh.
     
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  4. aristotle

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    Was thinking of buying the book Gyaniji. Will buy it soon.
     
  5. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    Gyani Jee

    My concern is not particular on numbers but whether guru sahib really is trying to apprise us about Hindu religious books. Was there really age of truth - satyug? or Sri Krishna kidnappped chandravalii and brought her to Brindaban to rape. What spirituality lies in telling us 'allah became the name of God? Is this the message guru sahib is conveying? And by stating 'charai ved hoey sachiar padai guneh tineh char vichar' he wants us to read them to be sachiar or there is something deeper message?
     
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  6. Sherdil

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    I don't think he is praising the books. I think he is just reiterating what is the common held belief about them. The way he lists them, I get the impression that people followed these books like passing fads. Certain religious paths were fashionable in certain time periods. In the last two lines, he states that humility and loving devotion is what is most important. Without these things, you are merely a follower chasing the latest craze.

    Japjisahib04 ji is correct in relating this back to the first pauree, where Guru ji tells us that we can become true by willingly following the Hukam. According to my current understanding, in order to submit to something, you have to humble yourself. Humility is recognizing that the Divine is all powerful, and it is by the Hukam that all things come to pass.
     
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  7. japjisahib04

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    Yes Jee. I also feel Guru sahib is just reiterating the common held belief. But then why Guru sahib is guiding, ' charai ved hoey sachiar padai guneh tineh char vichar' what are these veds that guru sahib wants us to read and contemplate.

    While looking at the start of the salok, 'ਨਾਨਕ ਮੇਰੁ ਸਰੀਰ ਕਾ ਇਕੁ ਰਥੁ ਇਕੁ ਰਥਵਾਹੁ ॥ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਫੇਰਿ ਵਟਾਈਅਹਿ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਬੁਝਹਿ ਤਾਹਿ ॥ ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਰਥੁ ਸੰਤੋਖ ਕਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਅਗੈ ਰਥਵਾਹੁ ॥ ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਰਥੁ ਜਤੈ ਕਾ ਜੋਰੁ ਅਗੈ ਰਥਵਾਹੁ ॥ ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਰਥੁ ਤਪੈ ਕਾ ਸਤੁ ਅਗੈ ਰਥਵਾਹੁ ॥ ਕਲਜੁਗਿ ਰਥੁ ਅਗਨਿ ਕਾ ਕੂੜੁ ਅਗੈ ਰਥਵਾਹੁ ॥੧॥ Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 470.1, first of all it reveals that the four ages satyug, traita, duapar and kalyug are not physical yugs but, 'ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਫੇਰਿ ਵਟਾਈਅਹਿ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਬੁਝਹਿ ਤਾਹਿ ॥ since it can flip back by imbibing divine traits from kalyug to duapar and from duaper to traita and then satgyug thus it is state of mind. Secondly 'ਨਾਨਕ ਮੇਰੁ ਸਰੀਰ ਕਾ ਇਕੁ ਰਥੁ ਇਕੁ ਰਥਵਾਹੁ ॥ by emulating divine wisdom chariot of manh is stablized on its four wheel. And once these four wheels are transformed, my thought process and character is 'ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਚਾਰ ਵੀਚਾਰ ॥ is elevated and guru sahib is referring these fours wheels to ved as (divine wisdom). Gurmukh nadang, gurmukh vaidang - the inner message is ved.

    Further when unique and exclusive philosophy of gurmat is 'manh jeetai jaghjeet' and gurbani tells us, 'ਸਨਕਾਦਿਕ ਨਾਰਦ ਮੁਨਿ ਸੇਖਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਤਨ ਮਹਿ ਮਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਪੇਖਾ ॥੩॥ ਇਸੁ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਕੋਈ ਖੋਜਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਤਨ ਛੂਟੇ ਮਨੁ ਕਹਾ ਸਮਾਈ ॥੪॥ the whole game is of manh but none of these sages or holy book talk of manh and introspection, then how could we interpret charai vaid hoey sachiar of other religious book as truthful.

    I am looking forward feed back from our learned members.
     
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  8. Sherdil

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    It helps if we take a look at the shabadh in its entirety.

    GGS, page 470:

    I recently posted something about the Chakravartin in Buddhism. Chakravartin means “the one through which the wheel of dharma turns”. Chakra means wheel, like the dharma chakra that appears on the Indian flag.

    The chariot is denoting the dharma (religious path)

    The charioteer is what is driving this dharma

    The destination is the Beloved. Reunification of the soul with God.


    In age after age they change. This means throughout history, different religious paths have arisen to unite the soul with God and achieve liberation.

    In Sat Yuga, the religious path was contentment and the driving force was righteousness

    In Traytaa Yuga, the religious path was celibacy and the driving force was power

    In Dwaapar Yuga, the religious path was penance and the driving force was truth

    In Kali Yuga, the religious path is fire and the driving force is falsehood.


    The takeaway from this shabadh is the same as the original one you posted. Different religious paths became fashionable in different time periods. It does not matter which religious path you follow. What matter most is humility and loving devotion. Without humility and love, you will not be reunited with the Beloved.
     
  9. japjisahib04

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    Sherdil Jee,

    My take is different. For example on one hand gurbani says, 'kalyug mai kirtan pardhana but on the other hand, in the current sabd guru sahib says, 'In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Atharva Veda became prominent; Allah became the Name of God and version of kadnapping and rape by sri Krishan is just a notion, then what are those four veds guru sahib is alluding to read in order to be sachair, 'charai vaid hoey sachiar'.

    Further in kalyug mai kirtan pardhana, Guru sahib is not referring to chaina, tabla kirtan but of manh da kirtan(chattering - confusion). And does kaljug applies only to Indian. I came across a pankti, 'sultana gha karieda - the manh, the ruler of my body drags me into superfluous work and as such I enter into confusion - an era of kala kala - kalyug'. Thus word 'pardhana' does not stands for priorities but for maneuvering and guru sahib is guiding me, in a state of duality kalyug to shift your manh to satyug - divine traits.

    Even otherwise when gurbani says, 'ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਬੈਲ ਬਿਰਾਨੇ ਹੁਈ ਹੈ ॥ ਫਾਟੇ ਨਾਕਨ ਟੂਟੇ ਕਾਧਨ ਕੋਦਉ ਕੋ ਭੁਸੁ ਖਈਹੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ when the Bull is not standing on all the four feets but one, it is a state of kalyug and when Bull is standing with the support of two feets, it is a state of duaper and so on.
     
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  10. Sherdil

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    They are the 4 books he listed in the previous lines. "Hoey sachiaar" means they came to be considered true by the people. He is not saying they are true for us or that we should read them.

    The above is taken from the original shabadh posted. This is describing the Mughal and Afghan invasions of the subcontinent. Also, the Atharva Veda is associated with ritualism and superstition, which were very prevalent in Guru Nanak's time. That's why in the second shabadh, guru ji says that in Kali Yuga the path is fire which is driven by falsehood.
     
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  11. japjisahib04

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    Let us check once again from Guru sahib whether there really exist physical Yug, first of all. ਸੋਈ ਚੰਦੁ ਚੜਹਿ ਸੇ ਤਾਰੇ ਸੋਈ ਦਿਨੀਅਰੁ ਤਪਤ ਰਹੈ ॥ ਸਾ ਧਰਤੀ ਸੋ ਪਉਣੁ ਝੁਲਾਰੇ ਜੁਗ ਜੀਅ ਖੇਲੇ ਥਾਵ ਕੈਸੇ ॥੧॥ SGGS.902. Apparently, as per my understanding, Guru Sahib is addressing the Pundit that “it’s the fear of tyrants that is playing as KaliYug (kal kal - a confused state) in the minds of the people and that is the only kaliyug that you have created. I have not seen or heard about the Kaliyug occupying any particular location or at any particular time. Because, it was and it has the same Moon, stars and the Sun that existed at all times in Satyug, traita yug, Duaapar yug and Kaliyug etc. etc. It is the same earth and the same winds blowing all the time.
    Let us see how you understand and interpret before we proceed further.
     
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  12. Sherdil

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    GGS, page 902:

    <style type="text/css">P { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }</style> My interpretation is that the time period is defined by what the society values by and large. Whether or not there were periods in human history where society was more truthful is immaterial. The previous yugs are employed as a literary tool in juxtaposition to Kali Yuga. For all intensive purposes Kali Yuga is referring to the here and now. By comparing and contrasting the present with the mythical past, Guru ji is illustrating just how messed up today's society is. The present society is driven by falsehood. That is why it is referred to as Kali Yuga (Dark Age). Today, we see people are steeped in rituals and superstition. The populace is far from the Divine. There is a rise in babas, deras, Christian missionary activity and Islamic extremism. These problems are not new. They existed in Guru Nanak's time as well.
     
  13. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    just musing...is it Kal_yug (the Machine Age ) ?? man's History has distinct Ages....Hunting..Agriculture...BRONZE age, IRON Age and Finally the Machine Age running now. Kal/Kala..Art..the Age of Machines and Inventions....
     
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  14. japjisahib04

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    I am serious Gyani Jee and referring to spiritual age. When Gurusahib in the very first pauree states, 'ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥ - laws of nature is the will of God and these laws - the divine message is ingrained within us, then how could Guru Nanak contradict and endorse four different ages. Gurbani tells me, 'ਜਿਸੁ ਜਲ ਨਿਧਿ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਤੁਮ ਜਗਿ ਆਏ ਸੋ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਗੁਰ ਪਾਹੀ ਜੀਉ ॥ ਛੋਡਹੁ ਵੇਸੁ ਭੇਖ ਚਤੁਰਾਈ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਇਹੁ ਫਲੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥ SGGS 598.4
     
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  15. Sherdil

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    I don't get the impression that Guru ji is endorsing a belief in these ages. Gurmat philosophy does not require a belief in yugs, but Guru Nanak was the first Sikh. He traveled far and wide having discourse with the spiritual authorities of his time. To communicate with them, he had to use their terminology otherwise he would be dismissed as a layman. As a poet, he is giving social commentary on the present time. He is not giving us a history lesson.
     
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  16. Sherdil

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    Please see this as well.

    GGS, page 1:

     
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