Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

Caste

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Jazz, May 16, 2006.

Tags:
  1. Jazz

    Jazz
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2005
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    4
    WGJKK WGJKF ....

    Moving off at an slight angle, please read below and offer comments ....


    Both my Mother and Father believe that all caste differentiation was abolished via Guru Ji, they believe that we are all equal in status, that we are all sikhs.

    Fathers view is that Guru Gobind ji made all castes equal, but did not abolish them. My Mothers view is that all castes are equal, and are abolished at time of baptism(amrit).

    Furthermore, I would like to ask : Guru Gobind Singh Ji renamed the panj pyare SINGH, why do we have a 'family' name at the end, does this not follow caste identification?

    Can I have your comments please.
     
  2. Loading...

    Similar Threads Forum Date
    The Sad Reality Of Casteism Hard Talk Oct 23, 2016
    Hard Talk The Caste System: Here's Why It's So Repugnant To Sikhi Hard Talk Aug 15, 2016
    Movies Ashdoc's movie review---Chauranga ( The four colours/castes ) Theatre, Movies & Cinema Jan 9, 2016
    India Patna man files defamation suit against son for inter-caste marriage Breaking News Jan 6, 2014
    Canada India banned the caste system 60 years ago, but it lives on for many in Metro Vancouver Breaking News Oct 11, 2013

  3. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2004
    Messages:
    1,744
    Likes Received:
    86
    Gurfateh

    Brother Amritpal Singh of Amritworld has views like that of your father but das has more support for your mmothers views.

    Gurus did convert mnay Muslims also.Say Sayyads of Gildiyals near Rawal Pindi ie ancestors of great scholar Sher Singh Kashmeer(who proved that Dasham Granth is from Tenth Master),Baheemi was converted to Ajmeer Singh,Whole Nihungs were from Shias.

    So we know that no caste could be assigned to them.
     
  4. drkhalsa

    drkhalsa
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Messages:
    1,308
    Likes Received:
    54
    Dear Friend

    As I understand using your family name for what ever reason created confusion and could lead to discrimination at some point and definately it represents the sense of attachment to somebody else beside our Spirtual father ( Guru Gobind Singh Ji) whether it is your great grandfathers , ancester or inherit ego inside you .

    Said so I dont want to mean that people all who dont use surmane are without ego but still it is much simpler and promotes unity in Sikh Panth



    Jatinder Singh
     
  5. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPN Sewadaar
    Historian SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 25, 2005
    Messages:
    2,949
    Likes Received:
    2,952
    Guru Gobind Singh ji said:

    Manaas Ki Jaat Ehk Pachano

    Recognise the Human Race as One

    Here Jaat means race. It can also mean caste, creed and gender. I don't think I need to elaborate further than that.:wah:

    If you are recognising your fellow human as somehow inferior or a different type of Human than you then you have no place in Sikhism.

    Guruji abolished castism, racism and sexism in one swift blow when those swords tudded in the tent and the Panj Pyarey were baptised.

    As for surname......I think that is done for practical purposes. Even Guru Gobind Singh Ji acknowledges in the Dasam Granth his lineage.....but he also acknowledges that in the bigger picture it does not matter one iota.
     
  6. bulleshah

    bulleshah
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    May 10, 2006
    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    1
    Caste has been misinterpreted as being hereditary whereas Krishna states clearly
    in the Bhagavad Gita that caste is a classification of people's potential. A single
    family might have children with qualities that are suitable for Brahmins, Kshatri-yas,
    Vaishyas, or Shudras.

    A child interested in academics can be said to have Brahminical qualities; the one
    wanting to join the armed forces can be said to be Kshatriya-like, the one who
    prefers business has Vaishya gunas and the one who likes serving has Shudra gunas.

    You might even find more than one trait in one person. Microsoft's Bill Gates,
    for instance, can be said to be of quadri-caste since his functions and aptitude
    contain elements of all four castes.

    Attributing everything in Creation as being dominated by three gunas saatvic,
    rajasic and tamasic Krishna says that all beings are under the influence of these gunas.

    The three qualities determine our intelligence, emotions, behaviour, actions, habits,
    impul-ses, everything. Unlike other life forms, human beings have the capability
    to hone and polish specific skills and qualities. Krishna the perfect counsellor
    tells us which vocation to follow to gain the ultimate goal of self-realisation.

    For example, there are nine functional qualities of a Brahmin as enumerated by Krishna:
    serenity, self-control, austerity, purity, forgiveness, simplicity, scriptural proficiency,
    spiritual attainment and adherence to theological principles (18.42).

    A competent warrior must have qualities of heroism, resplendence, and fortitude (18.43).

    When rajoguna is mixed with tamoguna it gives birth to Vaishya-like qualities, says Krishna,
    and they pertain to agriculture, animal husbandry, and commerce.

    Some are naturally interested in service, and so are suitable for those professions that
    require a predominantly service-component. Whatever one's potential and interest,
    the ultimate aim is self-realisation, and not self-gratification. These qualities do not
    bestow any special status on anyone; they are not even hereditary.

    Krishna states: "The four divisions have been created by Me according to the
    classifications based on natural qualities and functioning but in this act know
    Me as the immutable, Non-doer" (4.13).

    There is no nobility in these divisions, as they are merely functional.

    The aim of life being self-realisation, the two pillars which help this are varna and ashram.
    Varna based on natural tendencies can help in deciding the appropriate field of activity
    which would help in achieving the goal of life.

    To consider oneself superior or inferior is not sanctioned by shastras for such a perception
    leads to self-degradation. One who is born in a trader's family, for instance, might have
    an advantage due to environmental parameters but there can be exceptions.

    The most important factor in choosing a profession is one's natural aptitude.
    Choosing a profession one likes or for which one has the aptitude gives inner
    satisfaction and leads to self-realisation.

    Thanks.
     
  7. Jazz

    Jazz
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2005
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    4
    WGJIK WGJIF

    Brother Randip,

    Guru Ji abolished the differentiation between all sikhs / castes.
    Guru Ji abolished the caste moniker at baptism by securing only a SINGH surname.

    I have a open mind on this subject, however your above quote does not contradict the above.

    Please elaborate if poss.
     
  8. Jazz

    Jazz
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2005
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    4
    WGJKK WGJKF

    Brother Buleshah,

    If your first sentance is true, then the misconception of heredritary 'tag', is generations wide, and on a worldwide scale. It is unfortunate indeed that thousands convert 'from' Hinduism towards another faith such as Islam, due to this 'misconception', and thousands more dismiss it as an avenue / path when 'looking' for God, for this reson again.

    Tell me, who is it that defines this 'tag', is it the head of the family, head of the local Mandir, or Head Teacher? Is it not this 'tag' that leads certain people to be rejected from some Mandirs in India, and deemed 'untouchable' by others?


    Jas
     
  9. Lee

    Lee
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    May 17, 2005
    Messages:
    495
    Likes Received:
    377
    I am not of Indian decent so perhaps it is easy for me, but the simplicity of it is there is no room for caste, or toughts of caste within Sikhi. Just the thought that one man is lower than another is alien to Sikhi, and the idea that this is so based on what family name you have seems plain idiotic to me.
     
  10. bulleshah

    bulleshah
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    May 10, 2006
    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    1
    Jazz and Lee,

    I was not expecting much from the progeny of the clergy of the Golden Temple, led by Arur Singh,
    who had honoured the massacring Gen Dyer by declaring him a Sikh, on condition that he renounce
    one cigarette a year.......But I'm forced to continue to reply to such Neo-Sikhs. You see, like them,
    I'm caught in a trap of my own making -- The Incredible Heaviness of Being Macho. If I ignore your
    post, it'll be taken as my inability to refute your rank garbage; and if I begin explaining, it'll be
    perceived as a chicken-hearted retreat in face of the malevolent campaign aimed at my views.
    What to do. A retro-Sikh-Hindu can be no less daft. Therefore, let me assert by saying:
    I do NOT retract a single word from what I said.

    Your claim that Sikhism is caste-free and that this sets it apart from Hinduism (on the assumption
    that caste is intrinsic to Hinduism), is simply untrue. Every Hindu knows that Sikhs have not
    ceased practising caste. The acknowledgement of caste identities was presumably acceptable
    to the Gurus, for the Gurus themselves married their own children according to traditional caste
    prescriptions. The anti-caste thrust of the Gurus’ teachings must be seen as a doctrine which
    referred to spiritual deliverance and a firm rejection of injustice or hurtful discrimination based
    on caste status. What is not implied is a total obliteration of caste identity.

    Sikhs marry with Hindus of the same caste, while they still avoid marriage with Sikhs of
    different castes. Likewise, Sikh politics is largely divided along caste lines, e.g. the Akali
    movement is one of Jat Sikhs, shunned by low-caste Sikhs (who are called Mazhabi Sikhs,
    that is, Sikhs by religion alone, e.g. former Congress minister Buta Singh) and by the
    higher Khatri and Arora and Bedi castes to which the Gurus belonged.

    Please don't talk to me of any casteless society in India -- where even Muslims and Christians
    demand reservations for their OBCs. Why didn't anyone challenge Tara Singh's demand vis-a-vis
    Harijan Sikhs? What's a Khatri, Jat, Shimbae, Kumiar...? What's written in scriptures, isn't what
    Indian society follows -- so cut the crap.

    Thanks.
     
  11. Lee

    Lee
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    May 17, 2005
    Messages:
    495
    Likes Received:
    377
    Bullesha,

    Sorry hate mail? I just don't get it?

    What I said was there is no room for caste or issues of caste in Sikhi. I made made no claims of Sikhi being free of caste, only that it should be, I made no mention of Hinduism either in fact, what I said was I don't get this caste thing, because I am not Indian, nor of Indian origin. For me who has not been brought up in that culture the very idea for a man to be worth less than another man is alien to me, I also said that the very idea of one man being being worth less than another man based on his family name is plain stupidity.

    Now perhaps you got upset with my ignorance of caste and the Indian culture, or perhaps you are just being over protective of some imagined slight I have offered you I don't know but hate post? Really, show me, please.
     
  12. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2004
    Messages:
    1,744
    Likes Received:
    86
    Gurfateh

    Dasjust wnats to put traditioan or Sanatan Sikh views over here.Das did reply to isues raised by BroBulleshaha with same text somewhere else.

    Anyway das can say that Pursh Sutras of Vedas say that Brahmin came fromhead,Kshtriya from Armand Vaishya fromthighs and Sudra from feet.

    So far by that only caste based peoplesay that thier Birth or Jati isassuch from that Brahmin or other castes.

    But it is due to evilmind of evil Kaliyuga.

    They forget that source of allfour is one Father God.

    So Sa Jat Sa Pat Hai Jete Karm Kamaye means that that Godonlyis Casteor Gotraor Totumof allfrom which we get Salvation.

    When unprecedented evil comes in Kaliyuga via God then God is not bound by scriptures of preivous Three Yugas that new scriputre with new methods willnot come to fight new situtation.

    Sodo we have Gurmat.

    Coming to Lord Krishan factor.

    As per him in old scriptures ,humans can have Four Varna and Human Jat or race ws concerned.

    If we see Akalustat,Dev(Angels)Adev(Demons),Jachchh(Sea dwellers),Gandrap(Rock dwellers),Turak(Turks),Hindu are result of influnece of different natioans attirer.

    Again Vachitar Natak states that Angel is Called ,one who does good deed and demonn is called evil doer.

    But within Mahabhrata,we have Lord Krishna becoming Happy on the death of Gatochkach,Son of Bheema And Demon Wife Hiddimba.

    We says otherwise in orderr tocleance demons ethinaclly later,he himself would have killed Gatotkacha,Inspiteof factthat he was half man.

    And in fact Krishna does KillsGhatochkachha son Barbareek,And his rebrith is That of Khatu Syam Ji.Juistashe was from blood of demons.

    This is Hindu interpetation and as per them alldeomsn were killed.


    Gurmat does not under stand Lord Krishna doing so and such stroy is not placed in Dasham Granth.Ved Vysa might have said something Hindus miss.Both father nad son had power which was weapon similar to mass destruction,which lead to Lord Krishna being happy on thier death or killing them.


    Anyway sometimes das feeles pity on those Hindus,who try say we are monthiest and casteless faith.Our Faith is more toserve God in unioverse and so we serve universe .To do that as our worship we donot have to recoganse caste,race,relgeon,gender,area etc.

    Anyway in Punjab,we have seen peoplefrom various so called lower caste becming Kingsof Sikh,Jathedar of Akal takhat,and similar things in Sikhs who are not punjabi in morestrong way.

    But in Hindu Areasof north India,when we go to rural Area,Daseven once provided a weaon to lower caste Hindu,Reason was that,that Dhanuk(Weaver) was not allowed towear Turban in the village of Rajputs(Rulers) nor was alloed to ride horse during marriage procession.

    Das just request not to feel bad if someone says that we are having caste in us,just get motivated.

    1 to end the source of Caste in us ie Hinduism(itslef a racialism).If root is elimanted then no tree willbe there.
    2. Just wait and watch that caste supporters will have divisioan of Hindu socity themsleves(In India presently we have grave divisoan in Hindus and strikes are therein hostpitals on that).We do not have to do anything but can just tellthem to end caste else caste will end them .

    Das alsosaw another thing that inspite of telling Bulleshah that Mazhabi is Muslim convert to Faith,yet he stil does not understand.
     
  13. Jazz

    Jazz
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2005
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    4
    WGJJK WGJKF

    Brother Bulleshah, I asked this and you replied ....

    My comments were comments, My questions were just that, questions. The way you have responded is like you are upset, why are you upset? Is life difficult? Is it all getting too much for you? Can you not understand the questions that are being asked? Do you believe in a faith that instructs you not to reply in a cival manner? or is there a invisible war that you are fighting?

    Wake up my foolish brother, assist in the learning.

    I ask a question, not to ridicule, but to learn. If you cannot assist then by all means do not respond to them.
     
  14. Jazz

    Jazz
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2005
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    4
    Quite promising ....

    Dribble driblle ..... your so funny ... are you 10?

    I think that caste is a bad thing, due to what people have made it mean in society over the ages, regardless of its foundations/intentions. Your last sentance above is immature and unneccessary.

    Presumed, assumed ... oh well ...
    I lay witness to the fact that in my group of friends and family, not all, but the majority of them have married within thier own 'caste', without caste as a criteria. Does that mean anything .... does that prove anything ... not at all ... but feel free to presume ... assume ..

    Excellent opinion, and written very well at that. This was all you really needed to say to bring your point across. As in my original posting this view is held by my father, and he gives the same reasons as you have here.

    To err .. is human, and in this case not a religeous trait.

    Again more immature rantings .. would it not be reasonable to discuss, and not 'fly off at the handle' due to what you and only you precieve as attacks on your way of thinking/opinions.

    The original explanation of the caste system from Lord Krishnas time was very enlightening, and yes I learnt something I did not know. Your second posting put forward a very strong view on this subject, which is shared by many, regardless of the way it was put forward.

    The foundation of the caste system may have had noble intentions for the welfare of all persons, however these good intentions have fallen on rocky ground over the ages, discrimination on a global scale has taken place, lines have been drawn out for,how people can pray, meet, learn, marry, or progress in life. This does apply accross the board ... Hindu .. Sikh .. Muslim .. etc

    My question is .... do we pronounce the caste tag as dead, and try to move ahead without a caste system at all, or do we try to educate the people of the intentions of the caste system?, all the way from a few of my friends, who say they are hindu, but have no knowledge of the origins (as explained by yourself), all the way through to the institutional discrimination rooted, heavily within the Hindu community and, to a lesser extent, within the 'Sikh' community?

    And do you think either would work?

    Lastly, Brother Bulleshah, you are one of a community of educated persons on this forumn, I learn from this forumn everyday, and would appreciate if you could provide answers to my previous post and this one as a Brother and not a child.

    Jaswinder.
     
  15. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2004
    Messages:
    1,744
    Likes Received:
    86
    Gurfateh

    anyway das will put some light on the issue of qoutes from Bhagwat Gita he gives as Anti Caste.

    Same quote so far are used by some castist Hindus to prove caste.Just to put respeactable face so far such verese are changed in version and when danger is off agani inhuman caste in brouught back.

    Thing here is that He may not knoe Sanskrit and there is term ja there which is used for birth then say understanding and knowldge and as per same verse it is Said that Barhimns due to birth/family have such qualties and that is racialism.

    But das will say that verse as per Bulleshah are Ok.

    Then das had a fight with evengalist over another verse of Holy Gita.


    As per mercy of Krsna,Sudras,Women and other Heen(lowers) Yonis(Castes) may get salvation.

    so far Indians psudo pandits used term Heen Yoni for lower caste but truth is that sudra may mean ileaitrate labuerer,it may mean women with heen yoni ie {censored word, do not repeat.},which can get salvation as elvenglasist agreed to das.

    similar are verse in Ramchritar manas of goswami Tulsidas.

    Dhol Gawar Sudra Pasu Nari Ye Sab Taran Ke Adhikari

    Agani as per pseud Brahmins and evenglist who pray upon casteim it is

    Drum,illetrate,Sudra,Animal and women are worthy of beating.

    But dass wrote it Drum ,illetrate lower,animal(like) women are worthy of beating.

    again things does not end here.in one of the Purana,Britishers or whites are same monkeys,who helped Sita and Rama against Ravana and hense as a blessing got to rule India.

    That is not racialsim but not considering humans as humans.Muslims are tagged as demon species.In our scriptutes such things are calrified.Anyway resus monky can enter Jaganath Puri Temple but White man also deemed as monky can not.

    niece of das as half white russian and half Hindu is perhaps a pruduct of animal man realtioship and may not be allowed.


    Justfiying caste by Hindus by giving examples in other faiths is like Osama bin Laden jstifies his act of terror based upon minor acts of viaolence by US lead coaliation.Racialism in semitic faith(Sikhs included) is offically Baned and is due to pagan influence.While Hindusim itself is pagan culture and jsutiying race by name itself.

    Then he says that he is Mon,rather he could be a Hindu altogather.

    Mona guys are no where less see our Bro Plamba.often in Anti India movement there guys even were more catuous to support it as they wanted to do more to express thier things as by visiblity they do not loooked like Sikh.

    In North part of Ranjit Singh kingdom away from British border and before coming of Britishers did Nirankari Movement was started and by Sahijdharis.


    They are unlike Sanatanis as they only belive in Scriptures of Gurmat and nothing else.We have faith that God made Vedas and Kateebs but they do not.

    He says neo Sikhs have a look.

    These guys within the time Ranjit Singh in frontier Area did strange things.

    1. Did anand Karaj replacing fire but in Right to left way.Nihungs previously did left to right.
    2.Guru did write about Krishna(Arrival into Delhi to Meet Pandvas) and Lav kush(During Yagnas) killing cows in Dasham Granth.Guru killed Nilgai(deemed cow by Hindus) as per Bijai Mukt Sakhi 10 supported Churhas killing cow for meat and leather saying that Leather of Tabla and muscical instruments are obtaied like that.

    But Nirnkarie themselve killeed cows.

    so such are Monas or Sahijdharis.

    till this date Das is not liked by Nihungs for eating beef.We ahve three catogores of Sikhs due to conduct in Nihungs.
    1.Bebcki like AKJ but belving in Raagmala.
    2.Guru Panth or real Nihungs,can take all intoxicants but tobbaco,do not eat dead animal and cow.
    3.Mazhabi,can smoke,can eat dead animal and can eat cow.Due to last das himslef vlouteered for this.Anyway smoking thing is now banned in them also.

    But 1 to 3 can move from 1 to 2,2 to 3,3 to 1 and vice versa and reforms are still on(Trascript of talk with baba Nidder Singh Ji).

    As not All hindus are not from RSS so we can not make fun of all to genralised them all as RSS,but in Brahmincal or rather pseudo brahmniacal mentilty genralsisation is main thing.Tagg all Muslims as villian,Tag all sikhs as jokers,Tagg all Chrsitan as salable item etc.

    So tagging all Sikhs as AKJ,is simklar mentailty.
     
  16. bulleshah

    bulleshah
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    May 10, 2006
    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    1
    Jazz,

    HTML:
     
    To err .. is human, and in this case not a religeous trait.
    
    And Human traits always overshadowed religion. All the great ideas propounded by the Human
    mind had been killed by Human nature. Human nature always wins.

    The merely theoretical and logical people have always failed to understand man. They have
    never looked into his psychology.

    LOGIC IS ONE THING... and unless we try to understand man more psychologically and less
    logically, we are always going to commit mistakes.

    ACCORDING TO THE MARXISTS, the whole problem is simply the class division between the
    poor and the rich. They think that if all government power goes into the hands of the poor,
    and they have a dictatorship of the proletariat -- when all classes have disappeared, and the
    society has become equal -- then soon there will be no need of any state.

    They are all concerned with the society. And that is where their failure lies. As I see it,
    utopia is not something that is not going to happen, it is something that is possible, but
    we should go to the causes, not to the symptoms. And the causes are in the individuals,
    not in the society.

    For example, Marxism lasted more than seventy years in in Soviet Russia, and the communist
    revolution was not able to dissolve the dictatorship. Lenin was thinking that ten or fifteen years
    at the most would be enough, because by that time we would have equalized everybody,
    distributed wealth equally -- then there would be no need for a government.

    BUT AFTER FIFTEEN YEARS they found that the moment you remove the enforced state,
    people are going to become again unequal. There will be again rich people and there will be
    again poor people, because there is something in people which makes them rich or poor.
    So you have to keep them in almost a concentration camp if you want them to remain equal.
    But this is a strange kind of equality because it destroys all freedom, all individuality.

    The basic idea was that the individual would be given equal opportunity. His needs would be
    fulfilled equally, he would have everything equal to everybody else. He would share it. But the
    ultimate outcome was just the opposite. They almost destroyed the individual to whom they
    were trying to give equality, and freedom, and everything good that should be given to individuals.
    The very individual was removed. They became afraid of the individual; and the reason was that
    they were still not aware that however long the enforced state lasts -- seventy or seven hundred
    years -- it will not make any difference. The moment you remove control, there will be a few
    people who know how to be rich, and there will be a few people who know how to be poor.
    And they will simply start the whole thing again.

    Although the people were poor, still they wanted to cling to their property. At least they had
    something; and now even that was going to be taken out of their hands. They were hoping to
    get something more -- that's why they had had the revolution, and fought for it. Now what
    they had was going to be taken out of their hands. It was going to become government property,
    it was going to be nationalized.... And for small things -- somebody may have had just a few hens,
    or a cow, and he was not willing... because that was all that he had. A small house... and he was
    not willing for it to be nationalized.

    These poor people -- one million people were killed to convince the rest
    that nationalization is good for them.

    As time passed, they found that there was no way to keep people equal without force.
    But what kind of a utopia is it which is kept by force? And because the communist party
    had all the force, a new kind of division came into being, a new class of the bureaucrats:
    those who had power, and those who didn't have any power. It was very difficult to become
    a member, to obtain membership of the communist party in Russia, because that was
    entering into the power elite. The communist party created many other groups
    -- first you had to be a member of those groups, and you had to be checked in every way.
    When they found that you were really reliable, absolutely reliable, trustworthy, then you
    could enter the communist party. And the party was not increasing its membership
    because that meant dividing power.

    The party wanted to remain as small as possible so that the power was in a few hands.
    There was now a powerful class. For more than seventy years the same group was ruling
    the country, and everybody else was powerless. The people were never so powerless
    under a capitalist regime or under a feudal regime. Under the czars they were never so
    powerless. It was possible for a poor man, if he was intelligent enough, to become rich.
    Now it was not so easy. You may be intelligent, but it is not so easy to go from the powerless
    class into the class which holds power. The distance between the two classes was far more
    than it was before.

    It was a repeat of Hinduism. What Manu did 1500 years ago the Marxists did in the 20th century.

    The other ism's, including Sikhism, are no different. The people in powerful positions
    SGPC,Tat-Khalsa-Singh-Sabha variety) too are afraid of the individual.

    SIKH is derived from the sanskrity word of “sikhsa”, meaning the learner. If we are learner’s
    we should be applying the techniques of learning; passionate debate, constructive criticism,
    clarity and REASON! (do not undermine human reason). But to criticize the Sikh faith on
    certain aspects is becoming ineffectual for me, nobody listens, especially the people on the
    far right. Bu I am going to criticize anyway to reach out to the very few that understand.
    The reason why I criticize certain aspects of faith is certainly not to offend anyone, I believe
    that a liberal-minded and critical approach is lacking in our religion, this is offsetting serious
    religious doubts in the mind of youth such as myself. Those who believe criticism is a negative
    thing and breaks a religion are utterly wrong. Criticism is the bases on which a religion EVOLVES
    (take note people from the far right) and comes out stronger and more resilient.

    I myself am a Sikh and have all the right in the world(India is a free country) to criticise things
    I don't agree with. How shall one discuss Sikhi or anything without Sikhi or any such idea, no matter
    how great, itself being open to criticism ?? Even blasphemy is an integral part of all quest for Truth.
    The Sikh Gurus themselves were an example of this tradition of critique. So boys, if you want to be
    proud of who you are develop some confidence and real faith in what you say you believe in.

    Remember the Sikhs were considered liberal minded “back in the day”, which is why they
    suffered atrocities as our teachings conflicted with the teachings of the existing Islamic state.
    If you are a true Sikh retain your liberal mind and move forth this STATIC faith that has
    become detached from reality. How can we forget that ?? How can we abuse a Brahamin
    in the domocratic world . The Brahamana is considered preist by the Hindus. An equivalent
    of the Granthi. The Hindu scriptures contain lot of pronography but none of the Hindus or
    their shakraacharyas have ever raised the question of pronography and it's removal.
    Let us see when ever such demand is raised how do the Hindu devouts rataliate.
    And if you ask me... I am sure they will give me all the reason in the world to continue
    to be proud of whatever I believe in. I am a real Sikh. A Sikh-Hindu. Searching for the truth.
    Maintaining a distance from those who claim to have found it.

    Every-thing that is not sikh(as defined by London-Toronto-Neo-Sikh clowns) is our enemy
    they proclaim. Superstitious, idol worshipper Hindu... we all cry.

    But if we find the Jutti of any Guru we start bowing from a 100 yards to pay our respect.
    If some body found some stone at some place and said that these are the stones which
    one of the Guru's used in Modi Khana, we build Big Gurdwawa's and Mela's are held and
    the stones are worshipped . If some body said that Guru Gobind Singh drank milk in a
    holed Jug we spend loads of money to pay homage.

    All the hindu corruptive attributes that the Sikh Gurus and Hindu Saints like Namdev
    long before Nanak denounced have today been adopted en-masse by the Sikh themselves.
    No body calls a Hindu adharmi if he doesn't wear a janneyu but a sikh is branded as an
    out-cast by even his own relatives if he trims his hair. I am an atheist and never hide my
    believes or lack of them. But every Ganesh festival I am there at the fore front to carry
    the idol on the day of immersion and nobody has ever bothered. They all know I don't
    actually give a damn about God(though I am open to the idea of it's existence if some-one
    can convince me). I am free to enter the neighbourhood Shiv Temple and nobody cares
    that an athiest is distributing prasad. And I am cent-per-cent certain that nobody in the
    Guru-Dwara is ever going to allow me to distribute prasad.

    Whenever I think about all this I am reminded of the story behind Shivratri. The story goes
    that when during the amrit-manthan along with the amrit of life even vish was produced in
    an equal measure. Shiva descended from his abode and in order to cleanse the amrit decided
    to drink away all the vish that could have killed all life as soon as it began. In doing so,
    though he saved the world, he himself turned blue.

    The same is with Sikhism. If we have to go by the definition of A sikh by western Akali-Neo-Sikh
    scholar or even the SGPC clowns, shaven Sikhs (or even those who use ‘fixo’ or other similar
    cosmetic products, to smarten-up their facial hair) are not true Sikhs; the Amli Sikhs and
    Ram-garhiya Sikhs, Nirankari's, Nihang's, Sanatani's are not a part of ‘true Sikhdom’; and those
    who do not subscribe to the demand for a separate Sikh state don’t even belong to human race.

    A God turned against itself. An edifice created by the Human mind decimated by Human nature.

    Thanks.
     
  17. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2004
    Messages:
    1,744
    Likes Received:
    86
    Gurfateh

    Das is sorry but this bulleshah is up to get Hinduism insulted again and again.

    It is up to him that when will he stop doing this.Those who have glass houses do not pelt stones untoothers.

    so far you donot know the Truth which is God.

    God does all evil and does all God(Old Testment).
     
  18. Singh jr

    Singh jr
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Interesting ...

    Did anyone reply to this?
     
  19. Deepinderpaljitpreet

    Deepinderpaljitpreet
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    May 21, 2006
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    idont know much about this but caste system is always practised in hisdu religion.
    You see from first guru to tenth guru its same vein but still people like Kabir Bedi never use Singh nor as Kiran Bedi. I myself a jatt from Amritsar region and my Surname is older then Bedi used to be the centre of Punjab but a border these days.
     
  20. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2004
    Messages:
    1,744
    Likes Received:
    86
    Gurfateh


    True Follower of Vedas needs to follow Purush Sutra and need to see God in all so racial considerations needs to be left so no castes as per Holy Vedas.
     

Share This Page