Caste System In Sikhism: Why?

[Seeker9]

It is harder to change behaviours in adults. It is easier to mould behaviours in the young.
Re the education question then, I suppose this could be tackled in India if it was made part of the curriculum from Year One all the way through to the end of High School

Outside India, such an approach is unlikely to ever occur and we need to rely on each other to spread the word be that face-to-face or through excellent fora such as SPN

It is very difficult to be completely rid off people who want to cultivate and take advantage of the caste system in the same way you will never quite get rid off all racists on the planet...to err is human and humans are full of prejudices

But that's no reason not to make the effort and make some progress!

 

[BhagatSingh]

That is the choice of roopsidhu ji..whether he wishes to elaborate and whether he wishes to be placed under scrutiny. Narayanjot Kaur

Yes of course! why mention this lol?

 

[BhagatSingh]

It is harder to change behaviours in adults. It is easier to mould behaviours in the young.
Re the education question then, I suppose this could be tackled in India if it was made part of the curriculum from Year One all the way through to the end of High School

Outside India, such an approach is unlikely to ever occur and we need to rely on each other to spread the word be that face-to-face or through excellent fora such as SPN

It is very difficult to be completely rid off people who want to cultivate and take advantage of the caste system in the same way you will never quite get rid off all racists on the planet...to err is human and humans are full of prejudices

But that's no reason not to make the effort and make some progress!

Well Seeker ji,
If you read my response to Roop ji, I am against getting rid of people. Whether its by killing, or by removing them from society with other methods or even by correcting their views. Reason why is that the idea of Caste system will still lurke around, unless the idea itself is targetted.

There are parts of India where there is no education. There are parts where there is. Caste system is everywhere. I think that it has not been targetted through the education process so far. People aren't given the skills they need to "rip" apart these barriers.
One thing that immediately comes to mind is that societal norms are challenged in Canadian schools while they are not in India. The teachers here put some doubt on those norms. They challenge them, once you start thinking they stop and move on. I think this on its own (as simple as it is) is quite effective as the child won't take those norms as rigid set of laws as he/she grows up.

 

[roopsidhu]

SSA
Originally quoted by bhagat sing ji
If you can provide reasons for why you think so then I can put it under scrutiny.
First of I think that the babas and deras are contributing in keeping the cast system intact. Its the fact that babas has followers educated as wel as uneducated. In the educated catagory I have seen professors, lawers, judges etc also.
Uneducated masses following babas is very bad thing but educated lot having blindfaith in babas is the worst thing because we do not expect it from the educated lot. Thats why I say that the "so called educated people are worsely struck in caste system".
Bhagat ji.. all the writers in these threads are expressing their views. Some one may agree with these views and others may not, Thats how discussions starts. My english language may not be as good as of yours but still I think that all the writers shouls respect each other. I have never requested to keep my views under scrutiny then the question of If and then does not arise. May be I should not have been written so straight-forward but think we all should watch our attitute while commenting.
Hope you will not mind.
bhul chuk maaf
roopsidhu

 

[roopsidhu]

Quoted by bhagat singh ji
If you read my response to Roop ji, I am against getting rid of people. Whether its by killing, or by removing them from society with other methods or even by correcting their views. Reason why is that the idea of Caste system will still lurke around, unless the idea itself is targetted
Bhagat ji show me where I have written that we have to get rid of people by killing or removing them from society. Please keep the discussion clean based on the written replies not on the assumptions.
Roopsidhu

 

[BhagatSingh]

OK it seems as if we have two misunderstandings. No worries though, this is a discussion, as you said. Let's clear them up and get the discussion moving forward.
1. You never said but I did. and I acknowledged that you didn't because I saw this coming:

You obviously aren't proposing to kill anybody! (THough I must acknowledge a Sikh militant might be inclined to do so...)

This is why I said to go back and read my reply again. I had it in there.
But my point is that even if the source isn't there, the idea will stay. Any method used to get rid of the source, whether one corrects it (like you suggested Roop ji) or whether one kills the source (you didn't suggest this but it happens e.g. taliban), will not get rid of the idea. Becaseu you can't get rid of the idea like that, targetting the source is a bad strategy.

2. You didn't request to have your views under scrutiny but I said I will examine them closely if you can provide reasons that support what you said.
Scrutiny: (examination) the act of examining something closely
------------------------------
Ok I hope that clears things up. Now to examine your reasons,thanks for providing them :

First of I think that the babas and deras are contributing in keeping the cast system intact. Its the fact that babas has followers educated as wel as uneducated. In the educated catagory I have seen professors, lawers, judges etc also.
Uneducated masses following babas is very bad thing but educated lot having blindfaith in babas is the worst thing because we do not expect it from the educated lot. Thats why I say that the "so called educated people are worsely struck in caste system".

I agree!! I addressed this in my response to Seeker ji.
Ok waiting for reply now.

by the way, my english isn't very good either, I am trying to improve it

 

[roopsidhu]

SSA
Bhagat ji, I told you that my english in not that good. But I am sure we are not in the thread to examin others. I think examining and discussing are two entirely different aspects. Any how I am participating the threads being student ( learner ) not being the examiner.
Thanks for everything.
Roopsidhu

 

[Seeker9]

May I also add my apologies for incorrect use of language if I suggested violence towards others ....although I believe this concern has now been addressed ;0)

Roopsidhu Ji - well said Sir!

BhagatSingh Ji - are you still waiting on clarification from me on anything as I don't have much to add to my last post

Thanks

 

[spnadmin]

Everyone's English is just fine, and for that matter it is better than the written English of more than half of the graduates from US secondary schools. So apologies are not necessary.

 

[BhagatSingh]

SSA
Bhagat ji, I told you that my english in not that good. But I am sure we are not in the thread to examin others. I think examining and discussing are two entirely different aspects. Any how I am participating the threads being student ( learner ) not being the examiner.
Thanks for everything.
Roopsidhu

Roop ji,
I am not sure exactly why this is a problem. I feel like having to defend myself unnecessarily on this issue.
Examining is part of discussion. Once I examine what your views (and their reasons) are, I can discuss them.

Examine: (analyze) consider in detail and subject to an analysis in order to discover essential features or meaning

--------------------------------------
Narayanjot ji,
I think we are witnessing how problems can arise on the thread if terms aren't defined beforehand. I understand now what you told me a while back!

 

[BhagatSingh]

Seeker ji,
No one suggested violence to others as a solution so far on this thread. I was merely addressing this ,without attributing it to anyone on the thread. I felt I had to add it in my comments because of what's happening recently, with militants going around killing those people whose ideas the militants want to suppress.

You clarification is not required but I responded to your comment and waiting for a response from you now.

 

[spnadmin]

Narayanjot ji,
I think we are witnessing how problems can arise on the thread if terms aren't defined beforehand. I understand now what you told me a while back!

Well it is easy to get back into alignment. Here are the opening statements of jaspi ji who began this thread:

CAST SYSTEM IN SIKHISM IF IT IS ACCEPETED OR ALLOWED.


WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA AND WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH.

With all the respect to all SPN members and management as a whole.

Das just wish to know if there is more threads and discussion on cast system which has creeped among us to separate us from each others . Disbelief of cast system is a foundation initiated by Guru Nanak Dev Ji that we all come from one light an we all are equal.

This awareness will is urgently needed which make one cast superior than the others and place of worships are named by certain people who belongs to different cast .Cast was first disease which was eradicated.

Our teachings are none to match in the world yet we are all divided in different branches like Radhswamis,Nirankari,Kukke, and what not.

I humbly suggest this where SPN philosophy should be all about to spread our faith for our growing youths that we are who believes in Sikhism with considering where he has come from as long as he is a human being.



Jaspi

So now for purposes of finding common ground, shared meanings, one has only to review all one has said on this thread. Then, ask - Are my comments relevant to the problem as Jaspi ji framed the problem?

If there are places where the meanings of words are unclear, then ask for clarification and more detail.


The last paragraph strikes me as an area that has not been addressed yet. If there is agreement that Sikhism and Sikh are serous about the evils of caste, then have we done enough of the right things to guide our young according to Guru Nanak's understanding of dharma?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

 

[roopsidhu]

Bhagat singh ji quoted
I am not sure exactly why this is a problem. I feel like having to defend myself unnecessarily on this issue.
Examining is part of discussion. Once I examine what your views (and their reasons) are, I can discuss them.
Bhagat ji,
I have read,gone through or studied (not examined) your reply and reached to the following conclusion :-
Let's move on to the topic of the thread because that is more important than these things. All of us here are trying to participate in constructive discussions for the betterment of our society. let's spare our time, energy and vocabulary for the real purpose.
Roopsidhu

 

[BhagatSingh]

Roop ji
Upon further examination I agree with your words.

Ok let's keep going.
---------------
Narayanjot Kaur ji
You said the following has not been addressed.

I humbly suggest this where SPN philosophy should be all about to spread our faith for our growing youths that we are who believes in Sikhism with considering where he has come from as long as he is a human being.

I touched on this somewhat in the second part of my two part reply to you here:http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/25184-caste-system-in-sikhism-why-6.html#post126713
I said there that religions won't help the situation but that can be contested. If we say that Sikhism will help Sikhs break free from the caste system, meaning that a particular religion DOES help... then there are still some limitations of "religion alone" approach.
Let me explain:
I said that education is the solution. To this religion can be added to supplement. The ONLY religion that is really going to supplement is Sikhism because of its stance against the caste system. But why is spreading Sikhism by itself, limited? It is limited because it doesn't have a reach beyond Sikh circles. I don't think you agree that we should convert everyone who believes in the caste system to Sikhism in order to cure this disease. So in order to do sarbat da bhala, education is going to be a valuable weapon in this fight against caste system. and you are right Sikhs have done their part here, at least in the West but in the East we might need to do more.

And from here we were discussing what contitutes a good education because there are those people who are educated to a certain degree but aren't able to fight the caste system.
I said in addition to the normal education that is going on in India if teachers could create doubt among students about social norms, that might help break down the rigidity of the caste system. Let's continue on from here then?

 

[Seeker9]

I agree Education is key but like I said earlier, it would ideally be a sustained process from a young age throughout all years of the school curriculum

As for adults, they've already fully developed their views and beliefs so it will be much harder

We have to challenge those views and keep on spreading the word in any way we can including through fora like these which are enjoying a growing membership
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[roopsidhu]

quoted by bhagat singh
Upon further examination I agree with your words
To become examiner one must have been a good student first.This will be my last reply to your posts unless the right attitute is shown anf if you can not, then please let's stop refering our posts to each other, there are lots of other constructive points and people on the threads than just wasting our time like this.
bhul chuk maaf
roopsidhu

 

[gursikhi.jeevan]

There is no caste system in sikhism.

 

[roopsidhu]

SSA,
Yes there is no caste system in sikhism but its very disturbing to accept that "the caste system exists in many sikhs.
But forums lke this may play very important role to eradicate the caste system.
Roopsidhu