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Caste System in Sikhism: Why?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by jasi, May 29, 2009.

  1. jasi

    jasi
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    CAST SYSTEM IN SIKHISM IF IT IS ACCEPETED OR ALLOWED.


    WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA AND WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH.

    With all the respect to all SPN members and management as a whole.

    Das just wish to know if there is more threads and discussion on cast system which has creeped among us to separate us from each others . Disbelief of cast system is a foundation initiated by Guru Nanak Dev Ji that we all come from one light an we all are equal.

    This awareness will is urgently needed which make one cast superior than the others and place of worships are named by certain people who belongs to different cast .Cast was first disease which was eradicated.

    Our teachings are none to match in the world yet we are all divided in different branches like Radhswamis,Nirankari,Kukke, and what not.

    I humbly suggest this where SPN philosophy should be all about to spread our faith for our growing youths that we are who believes in Sikhism with considering where he has come from as long as he is a human being.



    Jaspi
     
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  3. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Caste is Brahminical Hinduism.
    NO other religious system has any such thing.
    When a SIKH is Given the Gift of Khandeh batte dee Pahul and becomes a SINGH/KHALSA, He/she is given a BANNA, the 5 kakaars, His/Her Name is changed, place of Birth is spiritually changed to Anandpur Sahib and Parents changed to Guur Gobind Singh ji and Mata Sahib kaur Ji. He/she pledges to DISCARD ALL PREVIOUS habits, beleifs, superstitions etc etc and have Complete Faitha dn Beleif in ONLY the Ten Guurs and SGGS.
    As such a SIKH ahs no more connection with hsi previous...caste/beleifs etc...
    BUT PUNJABIS find it so difficult to DISCARD all this RUBBISH. The moment we return home...we RUSH to the DUSTBIN..to RETRIEVE..our "caste/gotra/superstitions/bharams/etc etc etc that we PLEDGED to THROW AWAY FOREVER. We DROP the SINGH/KAUR and restore back the GILL, the Dhillon etc etc.
    There is a cure for everything..BUT for a FOOL there is no cure. Sikhs who attach caste are FOOLS and BEMUKHS as they broke the PLEDGE to GURU JI.. NO Apologies.
     
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  4. Manisha

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    Hinduism originated earlier on than other religions, so I guess it's safe to believe it started from there.. But it did spread to Islam and Sikhism - As far as I know, there are still caste systems in the muslim society/islamic culture but obviously, for Sikhism this was until the point at where Guru Ji banished it and where your above point(s) is obviously correct, that Punjabis are just very narrow-minded / uneducated in a sense, and it's their loss anyway for not having an understanding of the principle that ANY religion is purely God-related/based and something as small as caste has no effect on our lives - but only segregates us from one another - so why would anyone encourage this?

    I think it's just pride really - Caste system originated in India and apparently it's still used there JUST to identify people as what job they do - that's the ONLY reason it was introduced and obviously along with that, the status of someone is revealed through caste and this is where people NOWADAYS probably take the caste system to a further extent - as it's no longer what job status your ancestors (ect) were - it's about pride, enemies and therefore segregation, identity of status that's not job-related but wealth-related or just simply the stupidity thinking of "I'm better than you" - if you catch my drift..
     
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  5. jasi

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    Thanks for you comments on cast system by these fools but our so called priest and even in Parbhandhak Committee we have some serving with this tail of cast attached to their names.

    Why not publicly criticized this practice which divid us all by our leaders. There are other things which all are driven from ego or leadership, changing Ardas is a priority than changing all the sikh to be unit under one umberella which was preached bu Shri Guru Nanal Dev Ji , that we all come from one light. Shri Guru Gobind Singh created Khalsa on same ground what was vreated by our first Guru.
    Jaspi.



     
  6. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    NATURE and EVOLUTION....made us "drop" our "TAILS"...so that we can progress ABOVE (monkeys/donkeys...etc)
    But i GUESS some of US...do miss our tails....so we re-attach them...and WAVE them about so happily !!!
    Sometimes we Go so far as to..LET our TAILS WAG US !!! ( Dog wagging its tail is acceptable...the Tail wagging the dog is WEIRD ..BUT it does happen never the less...Same with SIKHS with TAILS.
     
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  7. Hardip Singh

    Hardip Singh India
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    Gyanni jee,
    What you are saying is perfactly right as far as our Sikh principals are concerned. One should not attach his or her so called caste against one's name. I , myself till 2001, never put the cast to my name Hardip Singh. But then, in 2001, I needed to migrate to Canda. When I submitted my paper for the VISA, it was refused on the ground that the Canadian Govt. has made it mandatery to put your caste / family name / surname after the usual Singh or Kaur. Reason given was that here every Sikh is either Singh or Kaur and it has become realy difficult for them track each and every case or to identify easily the real individuals. This too led me to add my family name of Vohra to my origional name of Hardip Singh and I became to known as Hardip Singh Vohra.
    Sir, pl advice me ; where is my fault in this.
     
  8. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Hardeep Ji,
    Gurafteh.

    NO FAULT JI.... I am NOT the Taliban Sikh type.
    I myself have to resort to telling some who persist..so whats you Family LINE..ancestors...and that is DHILLON Jattas of Tallewal Village in Bhatinda...
    so per se that is just "info"..nothing less nothing more.. as long as...I dotn go around imagining myself as somehow HIGHER than say a...Ravidassi/Mazhbi/Balmiki from Tallewal village Bhatinda...and expect him to bow to me or lick my feet or something...THAT IS THE "FAULT" and its avery HUGE ONE..HAUMAII...superiority complex...Ucha Naak Hnakaar..Hankerr...ALL THE BAD COMBIMNATIONS possible...
    Somehow..all this ingrained "inferiority Complex" so strong...wehn i visited the Punajb Villages...perfectly GOOD GURSIKHS...who came to do the "safaii...clean the vehrras, take care of the Goha Koorra etc in the VILLAGE HOUSES...were treated as...LOW CLASS..and they ACCEPTED IT.
    I was flabbergasted....to say the least...BUt that is REALITY I saw in EACH HOUSE....the cleaning lady/labourer/diharredaar...stood at the Gate..far away..took the food offered while keeping a distance....sat on the floor....and when i protested..the House owner would say..Gyani Ji..tuhanu patta nahin..eh choorreh hah..isteraan hee hah...
    THAT IS A FAULT..and BAD. Sikhi failed to STOP THIS....and the Babas with their separate langgars and amrit sansakaars have been spreading it further...

    And whats worse..people have "elephant memories..they never forget...
    Three "tallewallians"..migrated from tallewal in the early 1940's. One was my Dad Dhillon Jatt ( with just 30 killas to his name in Punjab and just 2500 SQ FOOT in Malaysia (the House we stay in), another was a Banniah who became a Singh to gain entrance to t he malaysian police, and the third was a Chmaar who became a Doctor. 60-7- years later..we are still Dhillon jatts although we have no land and never farmed....the Banniah is still LALA JI...even though he and his garndson also wear dastaar and are 5 kakree sikhs....and the Chmaar is still CHmaar..even though he reached the height of his Medical Profession...if he goes back to Tallewaal..he will be in the Mazhbi Bastee/Quarter...BUT we are still "lords" even though our 30 killas became fragmented..and my relations have to survive by taking other peoples land on Theka...while the Chmaar has many commercial buildings, nearly a thousand acres of valuable land and millions in his bank account........He is still the chmmar from tallewaal.....SIGH...

    2. On the Mandatory THIRD Name...imho the Canadians have DENIED having any such ruling. It was the Travcel Agents or Punjabis ON THEIR OWN who created this Bhed Chaal...thats why we have people who are known as...Ruby Dhalla....Majeet SAHOTA...etc wehn it could very well be Ruby KAUR..Manjeet SINGH... ALL this Surname being common is pure BS... ALL the SINGHS combined in the entire WORLD cannot Match the number of LEES from China....leave out the TANS..the CHANS..etc etc. IF the Chinese have no problems with having so many LEES in a LIST..why should SINGHS have this "problem" ??? At last count there are about 180 Million LEES...Total Singhs are not even close

    3. Enterprising SINGHS have come out with a solution...to the MIDDLE NAME/INITIAL problem...
    why NOT BREAK UP your anme into THREE parts....Jar Nail Singh is a bit out BUT..Tej Parkash Singh...Rann Inder Singh...etc etc are perfect. IN that way you get to retain SINGH as last anme/Surname and also have a Middle Initial.
     
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  9. Hardip Singh

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    Gyanni jee,
    Thanks a lot for the advice. At present I have nothing to do with Canada or their policy. With HIS grace I am happily settelled in Delhi. From Today onward, it will be Hardip Singh once again. Thanks for correcting me. I am highly obliged. I am starting today from this forum itself by changing my profile at SPN.
     
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  10. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Hardip Singh Ji,
    Gurfateh.

    Thank YOU. I really appreciate this gesture. and I am humbled.
    May GURU JI always have His Benign Hands over YOU and your family and bestow the Kirpa of Gurparsaad.
    I am GLAD that Guru Jis Teachings are followed. Its worth it..every inch of the way. We step forward ONE STEP..and Mera satgur..comes forward 40 MILES to meet us.
    Keep in Chardeekalla always....:happy::happy::happy::happy::happy:
     
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  11. Manisha

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    After reading this part, I was shocked BUT not surprised, I admit.. This simply tells us that because caste system originated in India.. It will remain its place in India.. Especially if people like that remain in there! Like you said, the house owner called him a chor ect despite him achieving a goal to help people and it's these elder people of pinds/villages who act as influences upon each village to remain caste to always be there..

    I used to think it was only due to western culture that influenced one another and made caste this "big priority" as such, but I find it absolutely ridiculous as now it seems as though the elderly are mainly responsible for this influence.. Even the elderly people of my family (who are from India) are in-depthly involved with caste because their/my previous ancestors were - and it's my very famiily (older ones) that had encourage the caste system upon myself and my brothers/sisters (the youths of this age) However, that was a long time ago, we've grown up and understood that its.. "" (nothing)

    Anyway, my point is, it's the "grown-ups"'s responsibility to ensure that caste isn't spread out.. Which isn't really happening - the amount of debates that I've had (along with brother and sister) with my older family have no effect on them!
     
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  12. dalsingh

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    On a positive note, I have noticed a welcome trend of cross caste marriages in the west. A few have taken place in my family. I also hear some relatives from back home have done the same.....so......
     
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  13. spnadmin

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    Mishi ji

    Great words by you, words of honor. Based on my own experiences with times when mis-shapened values from the past and older generations seem to make the world worse and not better, I just want to say this. We have to forgive our parents and grandparents even when they promote negative ideals. They are in some ways helpless in the face of the traditions that raised them. The responsibility to change lies with the children, with you and with me. We can move away from the ideas that keep us in bondage once we become aware that is what is happening. We can keep a different ideal alive.
     
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  14. Manisha

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    Antonia Ji :)

    They sure do make the world worse.. But yeah, I totally understand that.. And I do forgive them, but I forgive them because they are too old to change - But I'm only speaking about my family in this sense, because they are VERY stubborn; they listen to my points and they know what I'm saying makes sense and to some extent indirectly agree with me by nodding, but they insist on repeating false beliefs.. But I don't mind now, because I can't force them to change this "belief" of theirs (mainly because I tried and failed!) and as long as (like your saying) we know what to believe ect, then we're alright..

    And also, about my continuous point of encouraging others not to "spread" this caste message across, I find it really weird.

    Because me and my friends (sometimes randomers join in) always have discussions about this very issue.. And they're the sort of people who "brag" about caste this and that.. BUT then when they're having these sort of in-depth discussions with me - they portray themselves completely differently.. It's as if they know it's wrong to believe in it (especially as they're brought up as Sikhs) and even tell me that Guru Ji banished it, they know it's stupid, they argue that it doesn't mean anything.. But then they go back to their old ways..

    Very strange..
     
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  15. spnadmin

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    Mishi ji

    In the US we don't have caste, but we do have discrimination by race. People of color have been tormented by law and by social codes for centuries. Things changed slowly. Now we have a president who is a person of color. Yet, the hatred continues in all generations, the oldest to the young. IMHO this depth of hatred is learned, and it comes from fear which is senseless but also learned. If one were to play the part of an anthropologist and ask the question, "what do you think would happen if ..... were suddenly eliminated?" the answers would reveal how little connection there is between logic or facts and the reasons for the hatred. I think the change is made one person at a time whenever the awareness, the viveka, is attained and hatred is discovered to be something that destroys life.
     
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  16. Tejwant Singh

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    Caste system and other heirarchies in Indian culture goes hand in hand. Like a daughter when she marries has to matha tek to her in laws and jeth and jethani ( older brother in law and his wife)and all other elders where as she does not have to do no such thing to her parents' relatives. It used to be lableled as respect but one can see it a form of subordination- a soft slavery.

    I do not allow anyone to Math tek me although due to old traditions ingrained in my psyche, I do matha tek to my elders. My son Trimaan, 13, on his own hates the same. He tells his elders that, " I will matha tek only if it makes you feel superior". Many of my relatives have stopped expecting that from him, although with a frown. I will not force him to do it.

    So, once we take this out and delve more in Gurbani, we will be able to eliminate the caste system too. In order to do that we should emulate our Gurus in naming the Gurdwaras rather than naming after castes or people.

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  17. Manisha

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    You are, as always, spot on Antonia Ji..


    And Tejwant Singh Ji:

    Matha tekh is old tradition, like you say.. So it's likely.. It will always be done! As it is done to express respect I thought? Mind you, I've heard many stories of inlaws themselves not being the kindest of people to daughter in laws *scared* So it could well be "soft slavery"

    And Mr Singh Ji, you should know by now, this is what many Indians love doing - Frowning! :whisling:

    Well that's good, he may be a child but older generations shouldn't force this upon him, and that's a very good reply he gives them! :thumbup:

    And of course your last point is true by all means..
     
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  18. Randip Singh

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    Interesting that the Caste system works because we are born a certain status because of something we may have done wrong in another life.

    Yet we Sikhs do not believe in caste. Does this mean we do not believe that we do bad acts in previous lives? This brings into question the whole concept of Karma.

    I strongly believe that the Sikh belief in Karma is not that of the Bramanical type. Our Karma's here and now in this life is what we suffer for and pay for, and therefore being born into a caste has no meaning.

    Our concept of reincarnation I believe is more akin to matter cannot be created or destroyed but merely changes form. We are not doomed from birth, because as Sikhi states, if we become God realised (Gurmukh) caste, Jaat Paat has no meaning.
     
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  19. Manisha

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    Hmm.. I didn't know that.. But now that I do, I agree with what you're saying.. :yes:
     
  20. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    I had a big problem on this issue.My fathers family do not have any concept of matha tekna and my mothers side all use to do matha tekna.as a child I never did that to my mothers side relatives and my parents never forced me but I always saw that my cousins from mothers side doing it to my parents.Later on I changed my thinking and Started doing this whenever I meet relatives on mothers side.
     
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  21. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Mishi Ji,
    Gurfateh.

    YES you have hit the nail on its head. Long ago my late Dad used to say...Son when all these "buddeh khundh"...oldies...die off..your GENERATION will be free of all this caste neevahn uchah rubbish...what a surprise...NOW I am past 60..and I am telling my son the same thing...BUT unlike my dads time when we were in cocoons ( our own areas mostly with soem newspapers and radio only..) I live in the IT Age of the Internet..and I see "caste BHOOT" terrifying far and wide...its tentacles are spread so far and deep..so I am no more in ILLUSION that the "caste rubbish" will die with my generation (now the buddeh khundh..oldies)..BUT may continue..Until such a time as and when a GREAT REFORMER or strong broom wallah will come along and sweep it away....
    IN MALAYSIA we had less of this "caste" thingy..becsue almost everyoen was Jatt and only a sprinkling of cheembas, kambojs and mazhbis etc..too small to really count...BUT we had an even bigger MONSTER tearign us apart..IT was the MAJHA-MALWA-DOABA-MAINDOAB DIVIDE. OUR Gurdwaras were set up on REGIONAL BASIS...Malwaiyan da Gurdwara..Mjhailaan da Gurdwara and Doabian da Gurdawra....and Constitutions stipulated who and from what Zillah could be "memeber" of this and that Gurdwara. FOR THIS REASON.."caste" per se took a backstand...since it was vital for..say Majhails to capture a Gurdwara Parbandh...it didnt matter if you were a cheemba/mazhbi or Jatt..as long as you belonged to a particular Zillah and was their "comrade..pind wallah yaar....
    I am GLAD to see that with the coming of the new Generations..INTER MARIAGES between the REGIONS are taking place...and since "Caste" was traditionally on back burner anyway...the new generation sikhs dont care much for that too...BUT UNDER the New Influece of the INTERNET...and all the Instant News about the GILLS and the Dhaliwaals and the Ruby Dalls ..the Manjeet Sahotas in canada Germany UK etc..the Ramgarriahs..the Ahluwalliahs etc etc...Local Youngsters are also going around trying to figure out..WHAT AM I ?? AM I a dahliwaal ?? or ramgharriah ?? These are the questions i get asked daily..So Gyani Ji..what is a cheemba..who are the RAVIDASSIS is the Hot Topic due to Vieanna..How DO YOU actually "recognise" a Ravidassi..a chheemba..a chumaar..???? So HOW do I answer that ??..Next thing i know..a student comes back beaming..I am a Dhillon Gyani Ji.....my grand father told me so...OK here is my NEW ID..Kulwant kaur Dhillon !! SO Back to the FUTURE ?? Back to SQUARE ONE ?? I am LOST....and MORE LOST when the same KK Dhillon comes back another day and tells me...Gyani ji..you remeber those GHUMIARS that migrated to Canada a few years ago from here...they went there and changed to GILLS....what CHEATERS !! So who told you that ?? my Grandfather..he knows them from the village...These Holidays when we go to Canada I am going to ask their daughter....where she got the GILL name from ?? ..SIGH...SIGH...and more SIGH..this MONSTER is a thousand headed HYDRA..cut off one head..and a hundred grow in that place....sigh...

    MY CONCLUSION: ONLY WE CAN kill this. IF we ourselves consciopulsy DECIDE to CUT its HEAD. We can KILL caste..we can KILL DOWRY..we can KILL "suicides" and we can STOP KILLING Daughters...the DECISION IS OURS.
     
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