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Caste, Race, Ethnicity And Sikhism

Archived_Member_19

(previously amarsanghera, account deactivated at t
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Jun 7, 2006
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<<
If you favour one spouse above another because of race or caste, no matter what other considerations that is indeed discrimination.>>

i swear....i swear..!!!

i do not prefer one spouse over another..

LEe !!

:)

u must be lucky to have a couple of them... ;)
 

Lee

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May 17, 2005
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<<
If you favour one spouse above another because of race or caste, no matter what other considerations that is indeed discrimination.>>

i swear....i swear..!!!

i do not prefer one spouse over another..

LEe !!

:)

u must be lucky to have a couple of them... ;)


Hahahah no no not at all, my wife would kill me!:D
 
Jun 3, 2008
15
11
gurfateh ji!,
i hold the opinion that those who control our institutions (sgpc et al.) have never actively preached against zaat/jaat. i have never in my years of hearing parchariks / gianis at gurdwaras etc condem the evil of the caste system. the most i hear is the usual historical account along he lines of "kaligdar sache patshah ne ooch neech de perdh mithai" (the tenth guru eliminated the caste system etc). never has any giani told the sangat in strong enough terms to abstain from casteism/racism. who can forget incidents like Moranwali village Gurdwara where 3 amritdhari singhs were asked to leave the langar hall because they were from the "cobbler" / chamar "caste". surely The Tenth Master himself must have wept from his holy abode. And what about Gurdial Kaur's body which was not allowed to be cremated at a "high caste" cremation ground at Bholuwala village
because she was "dalit"?:mad:.
 

dalsingh

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Jun 12, 2006
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gurfateh ji!,
i hold the opinion that those who control our institutions (sgpc et al.) have never actively preached against zaat/jaat. i have never in my years of hearing parchariks / gianis at gurdwaras etc condem the evil of the caste system. the most i hear is the usual historical account along he lines of "kaligdar sache patshah ne ooch neech de perdh mithai" (the tenth guru eliminated the caste system etc). never has any giani told the sangat in strong enough terms to abstain from casteism/racism. who can forget incidents like Moranwali village Gurdwara where 3 amritdhari singhs were asked to leave the langar hall because they were from the "cobbler" / chamar "caste". surely The Tenth Master himself must have wept from his holy abode. And what about Gurdial Kaur's body which was not allowed to be cremated at a "high caste" cremation ground at Bholuwala village
because she was "dalit"?:mad:.


I agree. Not nearly enough is done to attack caste discrimination and the Panjabi Sikh community is torn between keeping cosy hierarchies in place and actually implementing a society that practices equality.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
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Jul 4, 2004
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Some Sikhs claim that they do not believe in caste but in the same breath they claims to be a true Sikh of the Khalsa and also believe in racial differences amongst Sikhs ?

What are your views on...

1) Can you differentiate between caste , race, ethnicity etc in the context of Sikhism?
2) Is there a sinister campaign by castists to undermine Sikhism?
3) Can you believe in racial difference amongst Sikhs and still be a Sikh?

Guru Piayario jio,

1) NO. SIKHI/Gurmatt is Universally for all.
2) YES definitely. Such campaigns began as soon as the Brahman realised that his position as "GURU JAGAT KA" was being challenged by the new GURU NANAK !! Bhagat Kabir Ji has already challenged the Jagat guru by saying..Brahman Guru Jagat Ka bhgatan ka nahin....and GURU NANAK began to put that into practise...
This anti-gurmatt campaign was carried on using the Guru's families..sri chand's rebellion against Guru nanak Ji, dasu datu going so far as to KICK Guru Amardass ji in public.. Complaints to Emperor Akabar gainst Guur Amardass Ji...the torture and killing of GURU ARJUN JI for having compiled the AAD GRANTH...instigating the Emperor Aurengzeb against Guru Har rai, Guru harkishan Ji..and Guru teg bahdur ji..four wars of Gurugobind Singh Ji and then after 1708 DENYING the Gurgadhi of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee by falsely claiming thet Guru Gobind Singh ji never passed away at nanded and instead "disappeared" to grant gurgadhi to a balak singh (Namdharees). This LAST action of DENYING GURGADHI of SGGS is the most dangerous act agaisnt Sikhi/Gurmatt of the Hosue fo nanak as it singlehandely demolishes SGGS as GURU. Recently this campaign ahs taken on another facet by bringing a secondary book as EQUAL to SGGS and insisting thet IF this "book" in its ENTIRETY is NOT ACCEPTED then its a negation of the Khalsa, the Amrit ceremony, the 5 kakaars, Nitnem Banis etc etc. This is an outright LIE..as no one is denying the Khalsa the 5 kakaars nitnem etc - ONLY objecting to the' Either ALL 100% or NOTHING" Hobsons choice on the book being offered.
3) Racial "differences" as in physical colour/shape of humans is a Natural thing.
Claiming to be superior or inferior due to race/colour height body shape etc is utter rubbish.
My two cents worth..
Gyani jarnail singh
 

Archived_Member5

(previously jeetijohal, account deactivated at her
Mar 13, 2006
388
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London, UK
I would content the contrary too has equal validity. The hostility towards Jatts by other castes insecure for personal reasons is also considered offensive yet Jatts have humility and are therefore too proud to say. I was raised in a strong community where each caste, religion and race was represented, hence my balanced outlook towards other races and the caste. I do find that the hostility towards Jatt is rarely spoken about in circles where the less than respect worthy use the race or caste card to their advantage to distract from other issues and compensate for their own lack of confidence, envy or insecurity. I refer here to Punjabi Sikhs.

With the advent of Sikh converts, Sikh Americans, Sikh Europeans etc, the adopted faith is given precedence over indigenous nationality or location. Caste or race issues do not arise amongst this new order but are firmly established amongst Punjabi Sikhs. The caste of class system if inherent in all civilised societies where one is placed at a rank in a stratosphere, be it company Janitor or head CEO. No matter and for what reasons many seek to eradicate caste and class systems they remain as each is assessed by his profession and social role.

A professional Khamboj, or an illiterate or uneducated Jatt, both have inherent racial traits time and a change of culture cannot erase. You may upon casting aside ingrained bias and prejudices aside find many other factors at play influencing a person’s casting, no pun intended, or blame upon his/her caste when so many other issues are motivating any adverse reactions to an individual. Each is the ambassador of his creed, caste and religion. To be the best and most honoured Khamboj, or a Rhamgharia misrepresenting culture and inciting unwarranted and poor reflection upon his faith, both speak greater in volume about the individual than the views he professes or exhorts.

Many Sikhs are émigrés in many host nations, leaving behind a ranking in their homeland to start afresh working in farm and menial jobs. Study and research indicate all acquire the inherent characteristics and attributes of their ranking in due time. We have monarch given honour from impropriety and scandal and former slaves of mixed racial backgrounds accorded the highest positions by their countrymen in their land. How does this honouring of the ignoble benefit society in any way. This is another point of discussion is sociological and psychological studies.
 

dalsingh

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Jun 12, 2006
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JeetiJohal wrote:
How does this honouring of the ignoble benefit society in any way.

Jeeti, I would like to ask exactly how does one come to be labeled ignoble? Who is the expert on the matter? Who makes the decision? How are they qualified to do this? What is the purpose of designating such a title? I presume there must be a good one?

From what I understand one of the cores of Khalsa ideology is the concept of meritocracy. The Gurus in various way, especially in the form of Guru Gobind Singh emancipated their followers from the type of nonsense you are talking of . The truth is the people who defend casteism are usually simply panderng to their egos and self image of superiority or are attempting to retain some sort of perceived advantage in some man made hierarchy.

It is no coincidence that over the last few centuries, at places all over the globe the concept of equality has blossomed, albeit in a bloodsoaked and tumultuous way. I concede that this is a work in progress but the fact that equality is something aspired to, or recognised as a desirable state in most of the progressive world is telling. Sikh immigrants (like yourself) in countries that have legislation that should protect you from unfair discrimination should not turn around and fail to afford this same courtesy to others. Personally though, I can't see how any reasonable person would turn a blind eye to the discrimination and disgusting oppression that sometimes takes place in the Panjab under the guise of "Panjabi" casteism including sexual, physical and psychological abuse. But then this exactly highlights why this whole notion needs rigorous attacking in the first place, because it produces such inhuman characteristics. In terms of the Sikh communities progression, personal development and spirituality this is only an obstacle.

Sikhs are émigrés in many host nations, leaving behind a ranking in their homeland to start afresh working in farm and menial jobs. Study and research indicate all acquire the inherent characteristics and attributes of their ranking in due time.

In East London, traditionally Sikhs have been heavily involved in the building trade. I have been involved in this in the past. There you will see many people who I imagine would consider themselves as "high caste" working as lowly unskilled manual labour. These people are not superior in any way believe you me. If anything they should be grateful that people take the time to train them and teach them a trade to feed themselves and their family. Sikhism does empathise humility and casteism works directly against this. The truth is that 'your' ideas are, in reality, the result of the indoctrination of your family and others close to you, as well as the baser elements of Panjabi culture.

Established hierarchies, especially unjust ones, are challenged periodically, where ever they exist in the globe. We as Panjabi Sikhs are essentially the babies of such a movement against castesim and Moghul oppression. As a Sikh first and foremost, I implore you, please don't try and replace one set of egotistical jerks, who our ancestors, with great sacrifice, collectively managed to take down with another set from amongst us.

Read this extract of someone from a so called "high caste" background and a direct descendant of a Sikh warrior martyr of the 1700s.
The needy alone deserve to be endowed with rare gifts
What is the use of empowering those who are already powerful.
The house of Nanak is known for its compassion and generosity,
And [is] known as the protector of the needy and poor.

Those who belong to the various offshoots of lowly twelve subcastes,
And know nothing about the game of power politics.
Who are contemptuously known as rustic peasants in society,
Or known as traders small time shop keepers and petty fighters.

Those who belong to the low castes of blacksmiths and carpenters,
And the lowly placed tailors and wine vendors who receive his benediction.
This fraternity would also include the low caste cattle grazers, rustics and cow herds,
And the ignoble vegetable growers (kambojs) and scheduled castes.

Water carriers, barbers, small vendors and potters will also join this community,
Sainis, goldsmiths, sweepers and cobblers will form part of this brotherhood……..

…..I shall confer sovereignty on these poor and needy,
So that they may remember my patronage and benediction.
Saying this the True Guru challenged his followers,
That they should pick up swords and attack the Mughals. (Panth Prakash, page 79)
We have monarch given honour from impropriety and scandal and former slaves of mixed racial backgrounds accorded the highest positions by their countrymen in their land. How does this honouring of the ignoble benefit society in any way. This is another point of discussion is sociological and psychological studies.

Funnily enough there was a Sufi (Bulleh Shah, 1680-1757) who echoed similar views towards the Khalsa during the early part of their existence:
"Perverse times have come,
I know the mystery of the beloved
crows have begun to hunt hawks,
and sparrows feed on falcons
horses bear the whipping,
while donkeys graze on lush green
no love is lost between relatives,
be they younger or elder uncles
There is no accord between fathers and sons,
Nor any between mothers and daughters
The truthful ones are being pushed about,
the tricksters are seated close by
The front liners have become wretched,
the back benchers sit on carpets
Those in tatters have turned into kings,
the kings have taken to begging
O Bulleh, that which is His command
who can alter His decree."
Also
The Mughals quaff the cup of poison.
Those with co{censored} blankets are up.
The genteel watch it all in quiet,
They have a humble pie to sup.
The tide of the times is in spate.
The Punjab is in a fearsome state.
We have to share the hell of a fate.”
Point is that we were once considered the ignoble, lowly ones.

Moo soch ke khol.......
 

Archived_Member5

(previously jeetijohal, account deactivated at her
Mar 13, 2006
388
76
London, UK
Your rant is but that, a rant, it neither addresses any of the issues I have highlighted in my post, nor does it offer anything other than the usual barking of your ilk, Ussi hamesha moo soch ke kholde, apna band rahe to uchcha hain, loud mouths are perfectly able to shoot their mouths off and thereby bring disgrace upon Sikhs, I descend from an amalgam of good ordinary respectable folk. You may have much to hide, I do not.

Ignoble, degenerates, immoral and devious persons masquerading as nobles, Ignoble, to lack honour, virtue, morality and be set high upon a mantle whilst oppressing and staining the good, sometimes whilst held by witchery devoices in their own homes. You may have an urgent need to curry favour with the rats in the locality, I don’t.

Your verbiage against so called Sikh abuse is laughable, cite a source other than the bakwaas you have spewed here if you cannot provide valid reasoning. Spare me the meaningless poetry offerings and is you must, address the point in the post.
 

dalsingh

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Jun 12, 2006
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Oh dear. Looks like I've struck a nerve. And your response is not a rant Jeeti?


Ignoble, degenerates, immoral and devious persons masquerading as nobles, Ignoble, to lack honour, virtue, morality and be set high upon a mantle whilst oppressing and staining the good, sometimes whilst held by witchery devoices in their own homes. I descend from an amalgam of good ordinary respectable folk. You may have much to hide, I do not.


Since when has descent counted for much in Sikhi. The Guru's own descendants sometimes took antiSikh positions, but I guess your above such things? Judging by your comments you sound like some one who hasn't reallly mixed much with "ordinary" eveyday folk your highness. You should take a day off from your high horse and try it. Would probably do you a world of good.

Ignoble, degenerates, immoral and devious persons masquerading as nobles, Ignoble, to lack honour, virtue, morality and be set high upon a mantle whilst oppressing and staining the good, sometimes whilst held by witchery devoices in their own homes. You may have an urgent need to curry favour with the rats in the locality, I don’t.

I don't really need to curry favour with ANYONE. "rats in the locality,", is that your view of everyday people? Very nice. What is it that gives you the authority to judge in this way, pray do tell?



cite a source other than the bakwaas you have spewed here if you cannot provide valid reasoning. Spare me the meaningless poetry offerings and is you must, address the point in the post.

I thought you could appreciate contemporary comments by and on the Panth of old. But I guess, seeing as it contradicts your own supremacist views it is bakwas pan ji.

I thought my reasoning was clear but I'll try and make it clearer.

Try not to look down on others in the panth like you do as once upon a time people wrongly looked down at our own people as common rustic worthless folk.

Would you not consider trying to relate to people instead of trying to elevate your status, presumably to feed your ego. There are better ways to develop your sense of self worth sis.
 

Archived_Member5

(previously jeetijohal, account deactivated at her
Mar 13, 2006
388
76
London, UK
As Guru Nanak spoke these vermin who plot mans ruin, who connive to weave nets of illusory deception, concocted of falsehood and cunning, they are as the worms boring through the excreted dung of what remains of mankind. Be not judgmental they bleat as sheep when examined closely of their hypocrisy, bigotry and false accusing, whilst they dare to judge the Highest Power with the minds of dead sheep, the brains of unborn beetles, boast of God and his word as nonexistent incomprehensible, beyond the understanding of such lowly beings conferring their own sin diseased mean mindedness upon their own reflections staring back from the abysses where they seek ’’God’’.

‘’Get down from your high horse...’’ seems to my ear the boasting from a demagoguery of tyranny and aggrandized bekaarii’s who actually mean ’we have engineered your destruction, taken away your Lord, shorn your crown, defamed your name, cast you into the farm of the iniquitous and debauched to be as fodder for the beetles of the demon king as he torments you into destruction, we have excluded you from the Sangat, attempted ardently to cast you into ignominy whilst setting each adulteress, wicked and your enemies high above you, we have eroded your faith, diminished your sanity yet you remains as pinnacle of wisdom and sense, we have engineered your oppression, contrived each onslaught against you, without such, saathi or sahara your life is but a wretched existence of suffering, struggle and an agonised mind. The demons openly boast of their witchery and devil worship whilst you suffer for their arrogant sinning, each ally you sought was poisoned against you, we have placed every obstacle to impede your escape from our clutches whilst we feed upon your power and have gained great wealth and laud. The religious who once honoured you, now attend at a distance as witnessers to your ruin, all others benefit and profit from your erstwhile labours and toil, you tire yet there is none to take up your shackle, you bleed yet find no-one to bind your wounds, you weep as they laugh at the injustice they have meted to you, no friend has availed you, your wisdom grants you not the victory that is yours, the demons win, in their high seats of power, lower than any bestial peasantry, they cackle with devilry as you crave death and are denied it, and yet you stand upright in your honour, upstanding in your righteousness, your dignity intact, your faith as indestructible as it was and is and will be eternally.

What are ‘’high horses’’ Dal Ji ? Unbeknown to you. your mouth speaks the words of the wicked, sinful oppressors with power, devilry and laud. Yet you know it not, and I am bound to forgive you. I talk often of the Matrix film, yet have not to date watched it. White blacks fighting Love, Man waging war with Satan, God possessed by a devious harlot, I watched excerpts and found them a reflection of the battling and inner turmoil, emotional conflict that I endure. I cannot lower myself from my high horse, and would die than bow to any false powers masquerading as power seeking further my ‘’lowering’’, I would rather die.

Seek not the cause for your ruin amongst the Sikhs or the sanctum of religion, but in the annals of politics, the corridors of monarchy, the chattels of the media. That is where lies mans, Saints and Gods ruination. But you would not dare. These times when irreligiousity becomes the norm whilst ordinates democratically elected are well protected not only by libel laws but treason and insurrection, whilst blasphemy laws disbanded to abet and aid them further. Look towards the evil crow of Windsor, previously a safari park, now a den of the vilest human vermin imaginable. That is where festers England’s ruin, not from the heavens of from those blamed.

Compelled to respond, I will now exist this gathering of the good and wise if only for their protection. Bhul Chuk Maaf.This is undeniably an angry outburst and rant. Please pray I fully am able to remove my presence from these online forums. I feel my work is done, and my end nigh, I could not bear Sikhs or Punjab carrying any blame for the sins of other beliefs, maybe you need to be cast adrift, aside, away from your own people to better appreciate their worth and goodness, much appreciated.
 

dalsingh

SPNer
Jun 12, 2006
1,064
233
London
Seriously Jeeti.

I tried reading your post but started dozing off after forcing myself to complete the first paragraph.

If there was anyone who ever needed to take a chill pill............hhhmmmm.

Kuriay, kuttarh bun ke khuch nee milna!!

As for this:

Maybe you need to be cast adrift, aside, away from your own people to better appreciate their worth and goodness, much appreciated.

Why?

I love my people but this doesn't mean we can't collectively push to reflect and grow. I am my people and my people are me, all of them, the good, bad and the ugly. The high, the low. You are the one trying to create some sort of pedestal to exhalt yourself in some delusional fit of grandeur.

Come down and meet the rest of us "common folk", you might have a surprise and find people you can actually like or admire down here princess.


ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਘਟਿ ਆਖੈ ਕੋਇ
सभु को आखै बहुतु बहुतु घटि न आखै कोइ ॥
Sabẖ ko ākẖai bahuṯ bahuṯ gẖat na ākẖai ko▫e.
Everyone says that God is the Greatest of the Great. No one calls Him any less.

ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਿਨੈ ਪਾਈਆ ਕਹਣਿ ਵਡਾ ਹੋਇ
कीमति किनै न पाईआ कहणि न वडा होइ ॥
Kīmaṯ kinai na pā▫ī▫ā kahaṇ na vadā ho▫e.
No one can estimate His Worth. By speaking of Him, His Greatness is not increased.

ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਬੁ ਏਕੁ ਤੂ ਹੋਰਿ ਜੀਆ ਕੇਤੇ ਲੋਅ ॥੩॥
साचा साहबु एकु तू होरि जीआ केते लोअ ॥३॥
Sācẖā sāhab ek ṯū hor jī▫ā keṯe lo▫a. ||3||
You are the One True Lord and Master of all the other beings, of so many worlds. ||3||

ਨੀਚਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਨੀਚ ਜਾਤਿ ਨੀਚੀ ਹੂ ਅਤਿ ਨੀਚੁ
नीचा अंदरि नीच जाति नीची हू अति नीचु ॥
Nīcẖā anḏar nīcẖ jāṯ nīcẖī hū aṯ nīcẖ.
Those who are lowest of the low class, the very lowest of the low;

ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਿਨ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਾਥਿ ਵਡਿਆ ਸਿਉ ਕਿਆ ਰੀਸ
नानकु तिन कै संगि साथि वडिआ सिउ किआ रीस ॥
Nānak ṯin kai sang sāth vadi▫ā si▫o ki▫ā rīs.
Nanak seeks the company of those. Why should he try to compete with the great?

ਜਿਥੈ ਨੀਚ ਸਮਾਲੀਅਨਿ ਤਿਥੈ ਨਦਰਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਖਸੀਸ ॥੪॥੩॥
जिथै नीच समालीअनि तिथै नदरि तेरी बखसीस ॥४॥३॥
Jithai nīcẖ samālī▫an ṯithai naḏar ṯerī bakẖsīs. ||4||3||
In that place where the lowly are cared for-there, the Blessings of Your Glance of Grace rain down. ||4||3||


SGGS Ji Page 15.
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