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Can there ever be TOTAL equality of sexes?

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Sikh N Sleek, Aug 23, 2005.

  1. Sikh N Sleek

    Sikh N Sleek
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    I'm wondering whether we are just deluding ourselves by stating that case that Sikhism is for TOTAL equality of the sexes when in reality and in teaches and historical times of the Guru's there is little evidence for this.

    For example Guru Govind Singh ji created the Khalsa (saint soliders)

    Out of a crowd of thousands of Sikhs only 5 dared stand up and openly embrace death by giving their lives to the Guru. Thus the panj pyare were born and Sikh men were given the title Singh (lion) and Sikh women the title Kaur (princess). These are gender specific titles and rightly so... cos 5 MEN stood up and were prepared to lay down their lives for Guru Ji no woman did....
    Guru Ji did not created Singhnee's (lioness's) or Kaurar's (princes's ???) lolz

    Yet we have some groups of western Sikhs who want the rights for women to be panj pyare, which I find absurd cos historically its set in stone. There is no question however of Sikh women not being warriors are history has shown many have gone into battle, arms raised, hand in hand with their menfolk, against the enemies of the time.

    And another example when Guru Nanak Dev Ji talked about women being put down by Muslim and Hindu texts and practises I believe he was saying treat them with respect and with compassion becos they human and not some tool to be used and abused. Yet now we have society in the West were the role of man is devalued and has largely become irrelevant appart from hard manual labour.

    It goes to show TOTAL equality of the sexes does not and will not ever come about. Because there willl always be these extremes where sexes discriminate each other in the family or the workplace.

    Let me state though in spirituality terms, both sexes are equal and no one gender is superior in the eyes of God according to Sikhism to my understanding. But practially we have roles in society which we should adhere to and not cross unless we want society to descend into anarchy and the collapse of the human social structure, which has seen us through all the ages of human history.
     
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  3. truthseeker

    truthseeker
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    Exactly what gender specific roles in society were you talking about when u said that Sikh N Sleek ji???? And how exactly will they "collapse the human social structure? If u could please explain.
    Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!
     
  4. drkhalsa

    drkhalsa
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    Dear Friend,

    As you said there is no difference in spirituality terms in sexes then i am confused do you consider being Punj Pyare IS some thing non spiritual. In fact in my understanding it is peak of spirituality in Sikhism and if women cant do this then off-course you have discriminated women.

    Now about the event that occurred on eve of birth of Khalsa on 1999 when 5 men stood up to give their head and become Punj Pyare. So as all of them were men so they have have secured the this right of being Punj Pyare for all rest of the male humanity but not rest of the female so what do you think of rest of the men sitting there beside Punj Pyare do they deserve to be Punj Pyare How would you differentiate the capability of all the rest of men present there and the women present there... well you could call them all WOMEN or may be less then perfect human as Our Punj Pyare were perfect so they were chosen for the cause not because they were male .

    Now I agree with you that off-course both sexes are not equal and they were meant to be different by Akal Purakh and off-course there are some roles in human society that could be played better by one sex than the other but this does not mean that we should draw strict lines on gender based roles as in changing society and living condition ( just to remind that this change is also in Hukam of Akal Itself) adjustment need to be made in various role that are played by the both sexes.

    Now If you think that women has missed the opportunity 300 years back so you will not allow then now to have this opportunity my friend such historical things are of importance to dead religions not the Sikhi Which as Alive as it was at time of Guru Gobind Singh ji the same Alive Guru is still with us( Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) if some body has missed the opportunity at that time ( which applies to all the people present there both men and women at the time of birth of Khalsa in 1999) he can avail it now .


    Jatinder Singh
     
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    #3 drkhalsa, Aug 23, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2005
  5. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Dear all,
    Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru JI KI fateh.

    Absolutely correct Ji. The GURU KHALSA PANTH is a LIVING RELIGION under a LIVING GURU..constantly evolving and changing

    Just because a woman did not stand up to offer her head way back in 1699 ( how many women were actually present is anybody's guess because looking at Society back then, a woman's "home work" would never get done...fetching water from far away, grinding the atta, collecting the firewood, cooking, washing, taking care of the roti paani of her husband in the fields, weaving cloth....back then women had a lot more housework..and the same 24 hours !! recently I was watching a Discovery Movie about Nepali Women...in it I saw that it takes a Nepali Rural woman baout FIVE Hours daily jsut to fetch a pot of water for cooking, another few hours to collect enough firewood for the day, and it all adds up to an ENDLESS GRIND just to eat-sleep-get up-eat-sleep...)...THUS DOESNT mean we can DENY Women their Proper ROLE NOW. This is arcahic thinking..not suited to a VIBRANT living Religion like Gurmatt.

    Most probably MY own Ancestors, who may have been present in vasakhi1699 DID NOT STAND UP to be COUNTED..so does that DENY ME the chance to be a Panj piayara Today ?? Of course NOT. In which way or on what GROUNDS can I claim to be Panj paiyara ??..Just becasue I am the SAME SEX as the original Five ?? So what ?? Same SEX doesnt mean a thing....if thats all I have in common with them ..meaning I MAY be DEVOID of all the other qualities...but just becasue i happen to be MALE..i have the chance to be a Panj..while my SISTER who may have all the qualities of the Original panj..but not the SEX..is DENIED the chance ?/
    SEX is WAHEGURU's CHOICE...The CHOICE to GO FORWAR and offer ones head is ONES OWN. and ladies have that RIGHT.

    Jarnail Singh
     
  6. Sikh N Sleek

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    truthseeker ji,

    Let me give you an example .....like if you watch children... 99.9% of male kids would play with gun toys, have ruff play activies, phyiscal fights, etc

    While girl kids would be more social, play with dolls, par take in activities which use the brain more less braun.

    From early age it is clear how different the 2 sexes behave.

    Men on the whole are physically far stronger and built for hunt gathering type jobs.

    Women are designed for child bearing and other social jobs required for the betterment and survivial of humanity.

    If we now say lets reverse this process by nature, which has taken thousands of years to evolve. Then we will see the collapse of human society.....and we can see the signs of it happening in the west. Just look at the amount of single mothers their are and amount of crime these days mainly carried out by young guys.

    When the male role model is excluded or devauled from the relationship then the boy child in the family has no one to look upto and eventually draws influence from bad aspects of society because he has no identity he doesnt see a future, has no care in the world because to him the world doent see any use for him......hence the high rate of suicide amoung young males in UK.
     
    #5 Sikh N Sleek, Aug 23, 2005
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2005
  7. Sikh N Sleek

    Sikh N Sleek
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    What process is their at the moment in selecting panj pyare anyways?

    I believe the principle of embrace death should be followed. Anyone who is willing to embrace death in the defence of Sikhism has my respect and vote for panj pyare.
     
  8. truthseeker

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    As for the selectiuon of the Poanj.. if im not mistaken.. they have to be an Amritdharee Sikh, who follows thier rehit strictly, and they have to kno their Banni off by heart.
    Correct me if im wrong but this is what i have learnt in the past

    Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!
     
  9. Sikh N Sleek

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    I believe that is the case.... but I don't know the selection process to become one of the panj.

    Surely only those who are willling to lay down their lives in defence of the dharam can be whether of such a glorious title.
     
  10. Amerikaur

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    Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

    Well...

    Is it a stretch to promote ethnic equality in Sikhi?

    500 years after Guru Nanak, we have Sikh Matrimonials that introduce us to the acronyms of JSM and JSF. A cursory glance through many sites will show that the word "fair" occurs much more often than the words
    "black", "dark", "tan", or "wheat" put together.

    There have been many instances of ethnic slavery throughout the globe. But has there ever been a culture that TRULY promoted racial and ethnic equality in a fashion that has persevered?

    There is also plenty of evidence and historical practice that caucasians have dominated the western world and non-caucasians have been relegated to a subservient role.

    Isn't this proof that there are differences among the races?

    Does this not justify and prove the superiority of one race over another?
     
  11. Sikh N Sleek

    Sikh N Sleek
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    SSA,

    The race and ethnicity is not important in society. One's race or ethnicity does not effect their ability to do a job but gender does.

    There may have been an argument that caucasians were / are a superior race because they generally hold the most power and influence in the world. But if you look at how they were able to dominate the world it was through the use of force (ie. the gun) not by their genetics or superiour thinking / idea's. Creating superior war fare technology always ment they were top dog. But cos now the likes of Russia, China, India , Pakistan, etc have the same destruction kind of biological, chemical and nuclear weapons... no longer can one race of people subjegate another through war unless they want to commit mass suicide from retialiatry attacks.


    In modern world with increasing globalisation taking place. Your race / ethnicity don't count for much, especially when you see the amount of inter-racial mixing going on.

    In terms of Sikhism, all people are equal in term of sprituality does not matter what religion, caste, race, nationality, etc.

    That is why we all sit together when we eat in communal kitchen in the gurdwara. You can be a King or a street begger, you will have to sit on level with each other and get served the same meal.

    The point I was making in a society like the one in the west, where the role of man and a father figure is being devalued. And when there will come a time when all the manual manufacturing jobs, which require hard labour, will become obsolete. The service industry will be the only one left and since women are generally better in that than men. You will see more and more males unemployed. Prospects don't look good.

    And what kind of woman is going to support a man, who has no role in society, and provide for her kids? Not many I would think.

    Whereas previously a woman who had homely skills (cooking, cleaning, child bearing,etc) had a value in society and it's development. But what will a man be able to offer when competeing against women, who general have better inter personal skills, in the workplace?

    Human society has never worked where men stays at home and women go out to work... We can clearly see a counter to feminisation of western society which is the increasing spread of the pro-masculine Islamic society & ideology, where woman plays the traditional role and man is dominant figure in all areas of life.

    And my concern is Islam will become dominate, because men disillusioned with western society and having no meaningful role in it will convert to Islam in numbers to counter the shift of power of balance. Call it evolution of idea's or the correction by nature but thats how I see things working out.

    So that is why I dont understand when women in west say equality, equality, equality yet what kind of equality do they want? to be men? to do the same type of jobs as men? Which I predict will result in the destruction of their liberal society and social structure by their own doing.
     
    #10 Sikh N Sleek, Aug 31, 2005
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2005
  12. Amerikaur

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    Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

    Is something universally good and moral simply because it happened througout history? I don't think so, which is why I drew the racial parallel.

    Equality means equality. It means not denegrating men, or fathers or fatherhood to promote the strengths or the contributions of women. It means not denegrating women, or mothers, or motherhood promote the strengths, or contributions, of men.

    I don't see the concerns in your e-mail as being that realistic in practice. Sikhs in the US are largely well-educated and in professional, technical, or corporate jobs - lines of work that are generally not specific to one sort of physique.

    I also do not think that men are in any danger of being forced out of the workplace. Look at the executives and board members of F500 companies, and one has to look long and hard to find a female member. Men have easily adapted to the white collar workplace.

    The key for our society to survive is to adapt to the needs of the times. In the US, we've seen many jobs and many types of work go to other countries. For the most part, we have survived by adapting and growing and being innovative.

    Will society accept a house husband? While such a concept may be the source of some jokes, in reality such a role is very possible. Not long back, Forbes (I think...) magazine did a report on a few high-powered female execs...whose husbands were full-time dads.

    In the 1940's, a lot of American men went to war. That put our country in a situation where there was an even higher demand for materials to be made, yet fewer men to work the factories. Our society adapted, as women a la Rosie the Riveter, flocked to the factories and took on heavy work. This did not denegrate men.

    With both men and women pursuing careers in the workplace, parenting a child is finally starting to be seen as more than just a woman's job, or a mother's job. Some employers are finally starting to understand that dads have a role in raising the child as well, and dads need to spend time with their children, and dads may have a need to be called away in the middle of the day. This does not denegrate men either.

    The upsurge of Islam in Europe is due to immigration policies, and not due millions of westerners converting to the faith.

    I frankly don't predict western men converting to Islam in record numbers. If anything, I predict more will fall away from religion altogether.

    As far as what kind of equality to "women want", I can't speak for the entire gender.

    As far as how I envision equality, I see it as neither gender being pigeonholed. That both women and men are valued for their successfully contributing to society in a way that works for them, while staying within moral bounds.

    Will we ever truly achieve it? I don't know. Will we ever achieve true racial parity throughout the world? I don't know. Will Sikhs as a whole ever get to the point where we live up to the perfect standards set by our Gurus? I don't know.

    But that does not mean the quest is not worthy.
     

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