Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

Controversial Can God and Ego Co-exist?

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by harcharanjitsinghdhillon, Nov 26, 2012.

Tags:
  1. harcharanjitsinghdhillon

    harcharanjitsinghdhillon
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2012
    Messages:
    124
    Likes Received:
    81
    can god and ego coexist together? to me my oppinion cannot. how about you your oppinion, please discuss here on this subject. thanks and sat sri akal
     
  2. Loading...

    Similar Threads Forum Date
    Interfaith So Help Me O’ God, Yahweh, Allah, Vaheguru, Et. Al…… Interfaith Dialogues Oct 19, 2016
    How To See God In All? Questions and Answers Oct 11, 2016
    Hard To Believe In God / Waheguru Hard Talk Aug 22, 2016
    Spiritual God's Will, My Will Blogs Aug 4, 2016
    Sikhism Is There A Supreme Being / God / Waheguru Or Not? Sikh Sikhi Sikhism Jul 28, 2016

  3. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,634
    Likes Received:
    2,749
    Can you explain why not ??
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. Navdeep88

    Navdeep88 Canada
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2009
    Messages:
    434
    Likes Received:
    651
    Uh... Little bit, we need ego to survive in the world, stick up for ourselves & others. But we need god, cuz we need a place to rest our heads, our minds when we reach that point where we either don't know or we simply cant move forward. Better to rest your head than to move forwards in a foolish direction...
     
  5. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,120
    Likes Received:
    7,947
    God and Ego do co exist, We all have God in us, and we all have an ego. The question is , can someone who claims to in tune with God, have an ego?

    Personally speaking, I have met folks who have had huge houses, big cars, all the trappings, yet show very little ego. Ego says, ' I am better than you and I cannot be taught anything', and this voice sings to us in our daily pursuits, by tuning into the pure, we can still have an ego, but allow it to assist us in our lives, some of course turn to the anti ego 'I am the lowest of the low, and know nothing' this is equally as damaging, one must train ones ego, maybe along the lines of 'I will stand by my principles and do the best I can, regardless what people think of me', and if whilst playing the game, people have a positive perception of me, or a perception that I would like to foster, then so be it.

    my own thoughts only
     
    • Like Like x 4
  6. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,623
    Likes Received:
    14,189
    The more we make space for GOD in our inner space..the less space EGO has...the aim is to drive EGO OUT alltogether...
     
  7. harcharanjitsinghdhillon

    harcharanjitsinghdhillon
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2012
    Messages:
    124
    Likes Received:
    81
    dear all members
    sat sri akal. thank you very much in giving your oppinions on this subject.. ego started when souls got separated from the divine source. yes i agree ego was needed inorder to come down to earth.. what happens if the soul merge back to the divine source, will the ego still be there? thanks and sat sri akal
     
  8. Ishna

    Ishna
    Expand Collapse
    On hiatus
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,942
    Likes Received:
    5,002
    Mmm, I think ego started as humans evolved. It's part of how our human brains work.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    #7 Ishna, Nov 28, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2012
  9. Ishna

    Ishna
    Expand Collapse
    On hiatus
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,942
    Likes Received:
    5,002
    Ego gets a bad wrap I think. It's more helpful in Sikhi to think about haumei: you/me polarity, division, separateness.

    Humans have an ego (sense of 'I') for a reason - without it we wouldn't be able to function, we wouldn't be human. You can't 'destroy' your ego without destroying your mind. It's part of you as a human.

    SPNAdmin ji makes some good observations here: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...goism-does-gurbani-punjabi-differentiate.html
     
    • Like Like x 6
    #8 Ishna, Nov 28, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2012
  10. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,634
    Likes Received:
    2,749
    I do feel that 'haumai' is a larger term than just ego.
    The 'ego' is necessary in helping to recognise ourselves, but we should also be aware of it.
    The whole me,me,me and I makes up the haumai as well as inflating ego.
    If we were to acknowledge and accept that the haumai should only be temporary then we have better chances of stripping it down from us.
    In the quest for finding the path or climbing the spiritual ladder we need some of it like a tool or vehicle to help us get there. However, once you know you are on your way there, then you can begin to strip it down.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  11. harcharanjitsinghdhillon

    harcharanjitsinghdhillon
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2012
    Messages:
    124
    Likes Received:
    81
    is it correct if i say, ego or haumai vanishes completely, when mind is surrendered completely thru meditation with the help of Naam? is naam is the best tool, or there are other tools? thanks
     
  12. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,634
    Likes Received:
    2,749
    Firstly, it depends what you mean by 'naam'.
    I know there are religous sects or jathas that have a special naam whispered to them to do jap with.
    If this is what you mean, then my answer will be NO.

    However if you are not talking about this naam, but want to know if meditation/simran will help for haumai to vanish completely, then the answer is still NO.
    -- Because, the simran can help, infact it helps most. But it is NOT the be all and end all, meaning you can't rely on that alone.
    You have to start being gurmat in every possible way and not just doing some simran for a few hours a day.

    Don't get me wrong, I am one of the few that does practice simran and meditation, but I know that is not what it is all about.
    It can help you to try and get tuned or to find yourself but you have to keep your conduct 24/7 in the same order.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  13. Ishna

    Ishna
    Expand Collapse
    On hiatus
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,942
    Likes Received:
    5,002
    ... but yourself is your ego.

    You have to start realising you're a tiny part of a greater whole, the whole of existence. You are not separate from it, YOU are part of it. You are a cell in the body of the universe along with all your brothers and sisters and everything. The stuff that makes YOU is the same stuff that makes ME and Lucky and Harry and Adminji and your computer and the grass and your lentils and the beefsteak and the air and everything in the universe beyond your imagination - one and the same. It is all connected, it is all ONE -- maintain THAT awareness for a little while and see what happens.

    It's not about crushing the ego through force of will. It's about changing your perspective (you'll always have a perspective because you have an ego :motherlylove:) so that you see everything as one and connected.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    #12 Ishna, Nov 28, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2012
  14. Archived_member14

    Archived_member14
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2004
    Messages:
    408
    Likes Received:
    388
    Ego is conceit. And conceit is not going away any time soon. Together with 'attachment to being', it is eradicated only when ignorance is completely eradicated. First one gets rid of wrong understanding and with this are eradicated, doubt, jealousy and miserliness. With the development of more understanding, sensuous attachment goes away, hence also aversion. In the mean time however and as with all realities, conceit must be recognized and understood for what it is. So although it is invariably going to arise very often in a day, it will not be seen as good / useful. To think otherwise would be an instance of wrong understanding and therefore takes one away further from the possibility of ever getting rid of conceit.

    Also one needs to recognize the difference between conceit, attachment and self-view. Conceit is the sense of “I”; “mine” is attachment, whereas “me” is self-view. Conceit is self-importance, characterized by comparision and therefore exists not only when we think ourselves better, but also when we think we are equal to or lower than. It is there when we are critical of ourselves and others. When we look into the mirror and wonder whether our clothes, hair or beard looks OK, conceit is present. When we reflect on where we stand in comparison with others be it in terms of looks, ability, intelligence, wealth, knowledge, good deeds, bad deeds and so on, it is due to conceit. Just being self-conscious is more often than not, manifestation of conceit.

    So it is really very silly isn't it, this conceit? Indeed it would appear that what we call madness is in fact conceit arising to a greater extent than normal. And this is probably why dictators for example, appear mad to us.

    Can we function without conceit? Not if we are going to live as householders. But does this mean that we think it useful? No.
    First, not all our thoughts and actions are motivated by conceit. Much of our day is driven by attachment to sense objects without any conceit. And although when reacting with other people conceit does invariably arise, in between there are more moments without it, for example, when experiencing aversion, envy, miserliness, regret, doubt and when restless. And with wholesome states such as generosity, kindness, morality, compassion, faith, understanding and so on, there is of course no conceit.

    Second, as good qualities are developed, evil ones arise less often, including conceit. Therefore for someone who has eradicated wrong understanding, doubt, envy and miserliness, conceit has by then decreased quite a bit. And later when sense attachment and aversion is gone, even less opportunity arises for conceit to arise. At this stage, one can still choose to live the life of a householder.

    I think that you can see now, that conceit can be done without and indeed it must. A person with little conceit will function very well as a householder, being that he will be an inspiration to those around him like no other person can. Attachment and aversion is replaced by kindness and this is the ideal way to interact with other people. At the same time however, this person will be even more alert to conceit and find even the subtle expressions very ugly. His inclination would therefore, naturally be towards the total eradication, and when this does happen, life as a householder will not be possible anymore.
     
  15. Ishna

    Ishna
    Expand Collapse
    On hiatus
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,942
    Likes Received:
    5,002
    Um, ego is not conceit. Ego is a construct of the mind, part of Freud's Id/Ego/Superego. It is our sense of self. Conceit is an inflated ego or sense of self. That's why they're different words.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    #14 Ishna, Nov 28, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2012
  16. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    For me there is a difference between "ego" and "haumei." But I would be at a loss to be able to explain it well enough to satisfy even myself. In fact I have been trying for about 1/2 hour now and gave up. What came to me at the end was this sort of puzzle.

    A story. Once there were 2 men, both friends from childhood, both living in northern India, both afflicted by a strong sense of suffering in the world and a strong belief that attachment to "self" and "separation" from a greater power was the cause of human pain and suffering. (Maybe "greater power' is not the right term. I am not sure what words to use, so you can substitute your own if you like.) The year is now 1522. One man had decided to live the life of an ascetic, was covered only by a tattered cloak, begged for food, lived only where he could find shelter, spent time in meditation and pondering scriptures, and was accompanied by a few disciples who looked over him during times when he was in samadhi and was vulnerable to attack by wild animals. The other man had founded a small town where people, rich and poor, Muslim and Hindu, joined him. There they married and had children, raised families, and devoted themselves to hard work and service to one another. They lived a collective existence which was organized around singing songs, played on the musical instruments of northern India. In fact, they sang a lot, even when they were hanging out by the river. The words to these songs were written by their founder, though at times he adapted verses from the devotions of Hindu and Muslim mystics.

    My question. Did one or the other of these 2 men have ego? Did each try to rid themselves of ego? Could be that neither one did. Maybe someone can answer my questions. Maybe someone can explain why they reached a crossroad in life, made different choices and decisions, and went in different directions. I don't know.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. harcharanjitsinghdhillon

    harcharanjitsinghdhillon
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2012
    Messages:
    124
    Likes Received:
    81

    no not mantra, this are to be earned inside during meditation, in other words sometimes are called unstruct melodies.. it is only captured by listening by our inner ear, not the physical ears. thanks
     
  18. harcharanjitsinghdhillon

    harcharanjitsinghdhillon
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2012
    Messages:
    124
    Likes Received:
    81

    hope this might shed some light--

    http://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart161.htm
     
  19. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    harcharanji

    I have read that article, from gurbani.or, posted at the link you give before. I do not think it is really tapping into the questions I have. The article is about "false ego" and is a good article. Some would say all ego is false. Even in the article you suggest the author says that "ego" is the seed of "false ego." And both men in the story I posted are concerned about this problem.

    A sanyassa would have no argument with this.

    But two men in the story have taken 2 different paths. Their idea of the solution is very different.
     
    #18 spnadmin, Nov 28, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2012
  20. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Sorry, for posting again. This tuk seems to answer the question of the thread.

    ਹਉਮੈ ਨਾਵੈ ਨਾਲਿ ਵਿਰੋਧੁ ਹੈ ਦੁਇ ਨ ਵਸਹਿ ਇਕ ਠਾਇ ॥: Houmai naavai naal virodh hai due na vasahi ik thaae: Ego is opposed to the Divine Name; the two cannot coexist (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 560) as quoted in gurbani.org

    But it is an answer only if you agree that Houmai/haumei and Ego are the same thing. Full shabad gives a different idea of things (translation of Manmohan Singh)


    ਵਡਹੰਸੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥
    वडहंसु महला ३ ॥
    vad▫hans mėhlā 3.
    Wadhans 3rd Guru.

    ਹਉਮੈ ਨਾਵੈ ਨਾਲਿ ਵਿਰੋਧੁ ਹੈ ਦੁਇ ਨ ਵਸਹਿ ਇਕ ਠਾਇ ॥
    हउमै नावै नालि विरोधु है दुइ न वसहि इक ठाइ ॥
    Ha▫umai nāvai nāl viroḏẖ hai ḏu▫e na vasėh ik ṯẖā▫e.
    Ego is at variance with the Name: the two dwell not in one place.

    ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਸੇਵਾ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਤਾ ਮਨੁ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਾਇ ॥੧॥
    हउमै विचि सेवा न होवई ता मनु बिरथा जाइ ॥१॥
    Ha▫umai vicẖ sevā na hova▫ī ṯā man birthā jā▫e. ||1||
    In ego, service cannot be performed so the soul goes empty handed.

    ਹਰਿ ਚੇਤਿ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਤੂ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਮਾਇ ॥
    हरि चेति मन मेरे तू गुर का सबदु कमाइ ॥
    Har cẖeṯ man mere ṯū gur kā sabaḏ kamā▫e.
    O my soul, meditate thou on God and practise thou the Guru's word.

    ਹੁਕਮੁ ਮੰਨਹਿ ਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਤਾ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਹਉਮੈ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    हुकमु मंनहि ता हरि मिलै ता विचहु हउमै जाइ ॥ रहाउ ॥
    Hukam manėh ṯā har milai ṯā vicẖahu ha▫umai jā▫e. Rahā▫o.
    If thou obey God's order, then Shalt thou meet Him and then alone, ego shall depart from within thee. Pause.

    ਹਉਮੈ ਸਭੁ ਸਰੀਰੁ ਹੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਓਪਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥
    हउमै सभु सरीरु है हउमै ओपति होइ ॥
    Ha▫umai sabẖ sarīr hai ha▫umai opaṯ ho▫e.
    Ego is within all the bodies. Through pride the beings are born.

    ਹਉਮੈ ਵਡਾ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਬੁਝਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਇ ॥੨॥
    हउमै वडा गुबारु है हउमै विचि बुझि न सकै कोइ ॥२॥
    Ha▫umai vadā gubār hai ha▫umai vicẖ bujẖ na sakai ko▫e. ||2||
    Egotism leads to pitch darkness and in egotism none can understand anything.

    ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਬੁਝਿਆ ਜਾਇ ॥
    हउमै विचि भगति न होवई हुकमु न बुझिआ जाइ ॥
    Ha▫umai vicẖ bẖagaṯ na hova▫ī hukam na bujẖi▫ā jā▫e.
    In self-conceit Lord's devotional service cannot be performed, no, can His will be realised.

    ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਜੀਉ ਬੰਧੁ ਹੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਵਸੈ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥੩॥
    हउमै विचि जीउ बंधु है नामु न वसै मनि आइ ॥३॥
    Ha▫umai vicẖ jī▫o banḏẖ hai nām na vasai man ā▫e. ||3||
    In ego, the soul if imprisoned and the Name comes not to abide in the mind.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਹਉਮੈ ਗਈ ਤਾ ਸਚੁ ਵਸਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥
    नानक सतगुरि मिलिऐ हउमै गई ता सचु वसिआ मनि आइ ॥
    Nānak saṯgur mili▫ai ha▫umai ga▫ī ṯā sacẖ vasi▫ā man ā▫e.
    Nanak, meeting with the True Guru, man's ego is destroyed and the true Lord comes to dwell within his mind, then.

    ਸਚੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਸਚਿ ਰਹੈ ਸਚੇ ਸੇਵਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥੯॥੧੨॥
    सचु कमावै सचि रहै सचे सेवि समाइ ॥४॥९॥१२॥
    Sacẖ kamāvai sacẖ rahai sacẖe sev samā▫e. ||4||9||12||
    He practises truth, abides in truth and by serving the True one gets absorbed in him
     
    • Like Like x 2
    #19 spnadmin, Nov 28, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  21. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
    Expand Collapse
    ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
    Writer SPNer Contributor Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    Messages:
    3,366
    Likes Received:
    5,657
    My understanding in blue of shabad posted by spnadmin ji above
    In summary,
    All errors are mine and I stand corrected.

    Sat Sri Akal.

    <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->
     
    • Like Like x 2

Share This Page