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Bhagats Bhakt Ravidas being called SatGuru Ravidas

Discussion in 'History of Sikhism' started by gur_fateh, Feb 24, 2005.

  1. gur_fateh

    gur_fateh
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    SatSriAkal everyone
    I was listening to the radio today and i heard that some gurudawaras and people were celebrating Bhakt Ravidas's birthday. Also the guy announcing on the radio called him SatGuru Ravidas. I also found out from a few people that many people are refereing to Bhakt Ravidas as SatGuru Ravidas. I just wanna know if anyone knows about this and what you think about this. I don't it's right to refer to him as SatGuru.
     
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  3. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ki Fateh.

    The Bhagat Ravidass whose Sacred bani is in the GURU GRANTH JI is a Bhagat to all Sikhs. ( One of the Main reasons Ravidass is famous today is also due to the fact that his Bani is preserved via inclusion in Guur Granth Ji Sahib )

    However a few (in fact quite a lot) misguided people have sought to GLORIFY the CASTE of Bhagat Ji and build Gurdwaras after his Caste, and attempted to allevate him to GURU and SATGURU. This is totally wrong as our Guru Ji calls him BHAGAT..and thats what He is for us. These people have even coined a new word for their caste..RAVIDASSIAHS....( normally called chumaars - leather craftsmen and carriers of dead animals carcasses etc).
    This si agian agaisnt Gurmatt as GURMATT of GURBANI bans all CASTES.

    Jarnail Singh
     
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  4. Arvind

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    Add - On: Recently, someone made a picture of Bhagat ji with a turban. And there was a big chaos by Ravidasiahs, that how come one dare insult Bhagat ji, by putting a turban on him!!!!????

    Bhagat Ravidass' bani is present in Guru Granth Sahib ji, as Guru Sahib intended to abolish caste system. But by building different caste based gurudwaras, we are pulling ourselves back into those old ages.
     
  5. vijaydeep Singh

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    Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

    Problem with caste based Gurudwaras is that often in main stream Singh Sabh type of Gurudwaras.As it is in sgpc.People are more interested in there position then Sikhi Prachar or preaching.

    Missioanries are just on payrole and any intitiative by them goes to dustbin as it is seen as a risk to pro status que management ,who hardly are aware of Gurmat but there self interset of chaudhripana.

    As often 'lower' caste are devoid of education or finance or are less them presuure groups of Jatts or Ramgarhias or Bhapas who control the Gurudwars so they('lower caste' have not say.

    So they make a seperate Gurudwara.In Fact Prabandhaks or mamangement who is Jatt or Ramgarhia or Bhapa are not Sikh at all as there is no caste in Panth.

    Reason for apostasy in Punjab is this also that present Day Sikh leadership like in sgpce are not role model but jokers.Then there are sants who live a lavish life.So young childern copy them and feel like to go in west and have similare life so they too give up Sikhi for matterial gain.

    These Sants at least are interseted that if Sangat come then there Dera or Gurudwara will be visited by more people so they do carry out preaching.But elected Prabandhak want to maintain there hegomony over Gurudwaras.So they may even discourage newer people from coming to Gurudwara just by seeing a potential competitor in them.

    Then missionaries who go to west are from rural Punjab and on there payrole and they may not be at all comfertable to have a raport with local young generation.

    Best thing is to let local in there respective area get trained as a missioary.Next they may do it voluntarly and may not be afraid of scarping of wages by Prabandhak.

    If possilbe let missionaries either overtake Gurudwaras from idiot Prabandhak or on the line of Sant start there own.

    If Preaching is OK ,then People will understand that Neither Body of any of the Ten Master is Guru nor Any Bhagat like Sant Ravidas Ji but Guru is Gurubani,Verbal manifestation of Gurubar Akal.
     
  6. roopsidhu

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    SSA
    as said by vijaydeep singh ji (If Preaching is OK ,then People will understand that Neither Body of any of the Ten Master is Guru nor Any Bhagat like Sant Ravidas Ji but Guru is Gurubani,Verbal manifestation of Gurubar Akal )

    In this case did you mean that neither Body of any of the Ten Master nor Any Bhagat like Sant Ravidas Ji should be called Guru or Satguru ? Means only Shabad is guru. Then why all of us refer to the 1 masters as guru?
    Why don.t we try to find the defination of guru or satguru from SGGS ji and try to apply that to find out that who should be refered as guru or satguru. The only and the final truth can be found only from SGGS ji
    bhul chuk maaf
     
  7. eropa234

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    Dear Gur Fatheh Ji,

    SGGS speaks with one voice its not important who's bani we contemplate it is the content that holds importance. Gurus and Bhagat reside in the same voice(bani). You will never find any contradiction in SGGS. Having the status of Bhaghat does not reduces the status, or Guru does not increases the status.

    A Bhagat is only a Bhagat when there is Bhagwan in the same mind, only than this relationship is complete. SGGS explains that when this relationship is established there is no difference between Bhaghat and Bagwaan. Bhagwaan the Guide and Bhagat the devotee. One who just calls self a Bagat without Bhagwaan is only fooling self.

    In my view, in light of Gurbani(launguage of knowledge) the word Satguru is not an individual rather than TRUTH-The TEACHER.
     
  8. spnadmin

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    erope ji

    It does matter whose "bani" we contemplate. Bani is not Guru's Bani if it is not in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. This is per gurmat and true for Sikhs.

    Many a sufi or other religious person maybe have been bhagat with bhagwan. As Sikhs we do not contemplate their bani. Though we may appreciate it. The same could hold for any religion: John of the Cross of Christianity or Kind David of the Hebrew Bible. They were bhagats in their own worlds. Their writings are not Bani for Sikhi. Writings of Kabir ji that are not in Guru Granth are not bani. Writings of any other sant ji in Sikhi that is not included in Guru Granth is not Bani.

    The undermining of the Sikh panth today as we read this thread is massive by attempt to add yet more to the Bani of our Gurus, be it Sarbloh Granth or "Dasam Granth" or mystic writings of 19th Century poets.

    Simply asserting that there is all this bani outside of Guru Granth does not change things no matter how often it is said and how many people say it.
     
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  9. eropa234

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    You may have misunderstood what I wrote. I clearly said SGGS speaks with one voice every single word written in it. When I read I pay no attention as to who actually wrote the words. If you believe that I should pay attention as to who wrote the actual words has any importance than you and I disagree unless you could explain as to why I should.
     
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  10. spnadmin

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    eropa ji

    The bani that iis Bani for Sikhs is only that which is contained within Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Everything in that granth, yes, speaks with one voice, and only what is in that granth. If it is not in Guru Granth then it is not Bani.

    It was this sentence that gave me concern, "A Bhagat is only a Bhagat when there is Bhagwan in the same mind, only than this relationship is complete."

    Any thing written by Sant Ravidas that is not in SGGS then it is not bani.
     
  11. eropa234

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    We are in agreement I am wondering why the concern?

    Ek Bhagat Bhgwaan, Jeh prani ke nahi man,
    Jaisey sukar suaan, Nanak Janyo ta hai tan.

    My memory as to which page and which Shabad is not that good.

    Thanks
     
  12. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Eropa wrote:....>>>>>>>>>>My memory as to which page and which Shabad is not that good.<<<<<<<<<<<<

    Nauvan Mahla sloks at END of SGGS read during BHOG Time.

    IF WE are NOT the Bhagts of the EK Bhagwaan the Creator..The ONE EK Oankaar is NOT in our MANN..then WE are no better than the Sukar (Dogs) and Swaan (Hogs). Btw this is NOT an insult to dogs/pigs...just an example....of a Physical BODY that has no place for the Creator in its Mann.
     
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  13. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Btw the BHOG sloks are practiclaly memorised by anyone who attends Gurdwara regularly simply becasue they are read at each and every BHOG...many in the snagat can read along with the pathee putting the BHOG......

    1. Some "fake historical " background. Previoulsy there is a beleif that Guru Teg bahadur Ji wrote a two liner slok in aletter to Guru Gobind Singh Ji from his prison in Delhi just beofre the Martyrdom...and that Guru Gobind Singh ji replied to this by writing the Last Slok as an answer...THIS is a FICTION becasue ALL the sloks are Mehla Nauvaan and none is mehla dasvaan.

    2. Now the DG lobby which has also produced so called letters from Bhai mani Singh to Mata Sunder kaur Ji..have released another chhochha..flyer..that these Nauvaan Mehla sloks are addressed to mata NANAKI JI..Guur Teg bahadur Jis wife...in order to console her...when the SLOKS are addressed a RE-MANNA..Mann..etc which is clearly to OUR MANN. These sloks are for ALL OF US..not a private letter.
     
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  14. roopsidhu

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    NARAYANJOT KAUR JI WROTE :
    The bani that iis Bani for Sikhs is only that which is contained within Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Everything in that granth, yes, speaks with one voice, and only what is in that granth. If it is not in Guru Granth then it is not Bani.

    It was this sentence that gave me concern, "A Bhagat is only a Bhagat when there is Bhagwan in the same mind, only than this relationship is complete."

    Any thing written by Sant Ravidas that is not in SGGS then it is not bani.


    IN THIS CASE CAN SOME ONE EXPLAIN THAT WHAT ABOUT THE 5 BANIS OF NITNEM AND THE ARDAS ? IF IT IS NOT THE GURBANI THEN WHAT STATUS DOES IT HAVE ?
    SORRY IF I HAVE GONE AWAY FROM IDEA OF THREAD BUT THIS QUESTION CAME TO MY MIND FROM THE ABOVE STATMENT.
    ANY CORRECTIONS AND SUGGESTIONS ARE WELCOME
    ROOPSIDHU
     
  15. eropa234

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    I can only reply on a personal level. Nitnaam and Ardas is a part of a structure in organized aspect of religion. The structure contains definition of a Sikh, part of rituals etc etc is outlined. This aspect of religion is evolutionary subject to change on consensus.

    Its up to you and me to find where the benefit lies. I know many people who follow mostly organized aspect of religion therefore they have a political approach to religion, who is the Jethedar? and who should be one?, what banis should be recited daily, Including subject of this thread who should be called what or not.
     
  16. eropa234

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    SSA Gyani Gernail Singh Ji.
    In my opinion SGGS does not require a historical perspective for understanding. The basic problems people have today are still the same today as they were thousands of years ago, Bharam, veham, greed etc.

    Many religions require historical context of text it becomes a problem when history is written with several different accounts.
     
  17. spnadmin

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    roopsidhu ji

    You have not gone of track, not at all! To lay a context for my comments, I have been trying to close the door in this discussion on the possibility that any and all of the writings of Bhagat Ravidas can be entered into the discussion as "banee." As you can see the original question posted in this thread asks whether Sant Ravidaas is SatGuru? That is the thread title in fact.

    So to close the door I took a very strict meaning for "banee." We know two things. Guru Gobind Singh sealed the Guru Granth making what is within it Guru. Guru Granth is the Guru's banee, Gurbani. We also know that there is no consensus as to what banee were recited in 1699 when the Khalsa was formed.

    Closing one door, I opened another regarding the prayers said as Nitnem and ardass itself. Please forgive me. All of the Nitnem were decided 1915/1931, and are mandated prayers as per the Sikh Rehat Maryada. In other words, Nitnem comes from a decision that can also be reversed. What cannot be reversed, and cannot be changed, is that all of Sri Guru Granth Sahib is "Gurbani." And I think you would agree with that conclusion.

    Just above eropa ji replied to you and said, "Its up to you and me to find where the benefit lies."

    Our conclusion as to what is Gurbani is not up for grabs in my opinion. We received our answer from Guru Gobind Singh.
     
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  18. roopsidhu

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    Narayanjot kaur ji,
    SSA,
    Very nicely answered by you. thanks. Yes I totally agree that we got answe from Guru Gobind singh ji and the answer was " only SGGS ji is "The Guru". When we say that SGGS ji is guru it means the entire SGGS ji(1430 angs) in its complete form is Guru. All the gurbani ( wheather written by any of the 36 enlightened souls) is guru. But after the order of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji only SGGS ji is Guru for all sikhs.
    Gurbani means the bani of guru. and bani means words ( written or spoken).
    I think the conclusion you have reached is perfect. threads can be prolonged as desired but the supermacy of SGGS ji can never be questioned or challenged by any one.
    for me participating in the threads means learning about gurbani from various scholers's point of views and thats what I am doing.
    bhul chuk maaf
    Roopsidhu
     
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  19. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Simple answers are as follows.

    1.GURBANI..is DHUR KI BANI that ONLY the "GURU" can pass on to us. From the Beginning it is..GURU NANAK SAHIB JEE....Mahalla Pehla...then Mahalla DOOJA, TEEJA, CHAUTHA, PANJVAAN. Guru Arjan Sahib Jee . Here Guru Arjan Ji deemed it necessary to Put all the Gurbani ucared so far by the First Five GURU SAHIBAANS into a GRANTH, Edited, compiled, made adulteration free each word accounted for in such a way that not a single word has been added or taken away since the day its jild Binding was done. The Firts and last attempt to adulterate it was CAUGHT RED HANDED by Guru Arjun Ji who named the adulterated copy KHAREE BIR (Salty granth copied by bhai banno who added some spurious banis on his own). This AAD GRANTH is now known as Kartarpuri Bir and in the PERSONAL POSESSION OF the SODHI Family of Guru Ramdass Ji-Guru Gobind Singh ji )

    2. There are NO Mehlla Chhevan, satvaan and athvaan _ Gurus Hargobind Ji, Har rai ji and Harkishan Ji DID NOT UCHAR ANY GURBANI while they were GURU.

    3. Guru TEG Bahadur Ji sahib then wrote some more GURBANI under the Mehalla NAUVAAN .

    4. Guru Gobind Singh ji decided that He would NOT be passing the Gurgadhee to nay LIVING SUCCESSOR.
    5. Guru Gobind Singh ji then undertook the task of WRITING another New Copy of Guru Arjan Jis AAD GRANTH ( that was in Kartarpur in the posession fo the sodhis who were ANTI-GURU GHAR) and INCORPORATE the additinal GURBANI uchared by Guru Teg Bahadur Ji sahib. This NEW COPY of the AAD GRANTH was penned by Bhai mani Singh Ji at Damdama Sahib (Now Takhat ) and is thus called the DAMDAMI BIR or DASVAAN PATSHAH KA GRANTH to distinguish it form the previous aad granth (AGS) of Guru Arjan Ji sahib at Kartarpur (which is INCOMPLETE as it is MISSING the GURBANI of Guru teg bahadur Ji)
    6. THIS DAMDAMI BIR/DASVAAN PATSHAH KA GRANTH was given the GURGADHEE in 1708 at nanded when Guru Gobind Singh ji decreed..Sabh Sikahn ko HUKM hai..GURU MANIYO GRANTH !! THen this Granth became GURU GRANTH SAHIB (SGGS)

    7. IMPORTANT POINT OF NOTE: The SGGS ( The WORDS.. AUTHORISED and CERTIFIED TRUE COPY OF Damdami Bir" are PRINTED on Each and every copy of the SGGS parkash in any and all gurdwaras ) .

    8 Since 1708 after the demise of Guru gobind Singh Ji we have the ONE and ONLY GURU..and its SGGS. AT any ONE TIME..ONLY ONE GURU has uchared GURBANI..becasue ONLY ONE GURU sat on the THRONE of Guru nanak ji Sahib. Example..At the time GURU Nanak ji was alive..there was Bhai lehna Ji...Bhai Amardass Ji also around....BUT Bhai Lehna Ji never wrote asingle slok of Gurbani..UNTIL and AFTER he became GURU ANGAD. Same goes for Bhai Amardass Ji...equal in age to Guru nanak ji sahib...BUT "GURBANI" by Mehalla TEEJA began to spring ofrth ONLY fater Bhai Amardass ji became GURU Amardass Ji. same goes for Bhai jetha Ji...who became GURU RAMDASS ji and ucahrred GURBANI. "Guru" Arjan ji was Born in the Gurus Household.and Guru Amardass Ji gave him the blessings..Guru ka pota..Bani ka BOHITHA...Guru's grandson...the SHIP OF GURBANI at a very young age when the boy arjun sat in the lap of his grandfatehr Guru Amardass Ji !! BUT GURUBANI only came out of the pen of Guru Arjun Ji when he was GURU..and not earlier.
    8. Guru Hargobind Ji was GURU..so was Guru Har rai ji and Guru Harkishan Ji..neither of them wrote a single word of Gurbani..BUT they are NOT ANY LESS "GURU". THAT is precisely why we say in ardass...SGGS...DASSAN GURUAN DEE JYOT !! Because the SGGS is the SUCCESSOR to the Gurgadee of GURU NANAK-GURU GOBIND SINGH...and the Guru nanak JYOT is NOW RESIDENT in SGGS. SGGS is the One and ONLY GURU by virtue of GURGADEE bestowed by Guru gobind Singh ji in 1708...it naturally follows that the SGGS is DASAAN GURUAAN DEE JYOT. Its doesnt matter if any GURU wrote or didnt write any Gurbani..the TEN gurus are ONE JYOT and THAT JYOT is now in SGGS. PERIOD.

    9. LOgically since ONLY a GURU can uchar GURBANI..and the SGGS is NOW GURU...it logically also follows that whatever is INSIDE the SGGS is GURBANI. NOTHING ELSE...no matter what explanations..arguments...SIKH HISTORY is proof that ONLY THE GURU UCHARS GURBANI. PERIOD.

    10 Next...Since ONLY the GURU can Uchar GURBANI..it follows that ONLY the GURU can alter...remove...add GURBANI. Now since the SGGS is GURU..that question no longer arises. Thus the SGGS is a CLOSED matter..and Guru Ji Himlsef Placed the LOCK..the FINAL SEAL..MUNDAWNNI MEHALLA PANJVAAN. Please realsie that even though Guru Gobind Singh ji REWROTE the entire AAD GRANTH into the GURU GRANTH...Guru Gobind Singh ji placed back the Mundawnni SEAL in the END as Guru Arjan Ji placed it. Its like a Caretaker opening a LOCK on a warehouse...placing additional valuables inside ( Guru Teg bahadur Jis Gurbani) and then RE-USING the SAME GOOD LOCK and relocking the warehouse..TREASURE HOUSE !!
    11. The Raagmalla..comes AFTER the Mundawnni....just like someone leaving a "gift" at YOUR DOORSTEP..fater ringing the bell and being unable to enter yoru home..or running away after placing it there hoping you will take it inside (like the Trojans who dragged in the TROJAN HORSE the Greeks left at their Gates ). The Raagmala remains OUTSIDE due to the excellent Mundawnni lock..but kind hearted sikhs do read it..just becasue its there...its NOT GURBANI becasue it carries no Mehlla and has nothing of spiritual values...mostly mytholigical fantasy...that only saadhs and baabs can possibly love.

    12. The NITNEM in the SGGS...is written in the Beginning pages of the SGGS. japji Sahib...the REHRASS Sahib..and SOHILA SAHIB are in a SPECIAL CATEGORY right in the beginning of sggs before the Raags begin with Sri raag Mahalla Pehla.

    13. The SRM formulators from various maryadas, smapardas, taksaals etc etc...got together in the early 1915 onwards to standardise a SRM. This was a HUMAN EFFORT - NOT GURU EFFORT. The SRM made it mandatory to read Japji, Jaap swaiyahs, chaupai in rehrass and sohila and Five paurees of anand sahib. STILL the SRM Failed to be completley agreeable to ALL....the Taksals, akj jatha, various deras etc etc carried on with theri own maryadas....some adding this bani and another removing this bani...soem have arrills and jagmata shabads in rehrass..others read complete 40 paurees of anand sahib..etc etc..some ban meat..others say jhatka is ok...its a FREE FOR ALL simply becasue this is a MAN MADE DOCUMENT. The Guru Khalsa Panth can make and break this any time. ONLY THE SGGS CANNOT BE ALTERED IN ANY WAY. There cannot be any GURBANI left OUTSIDE the GURU...SGGS. The GURU is a sealed closed Bir. Period.
    The GURU KHALSA PANTH and the SGGS...and KHANDEY BATTE DEE PAHUL are FOREVER...no danger form anyone...EXCEPT from SIKHS who DONT FOLLOW the SGGS in FULL and LIVE ACCORDING TO GURBANI in SGGS..that is follow what the GURU SAYS to the LETTER !!:happysingh::happysingh::happysingh::happysingh::happysingh:Bhai Daya Singh, Bhai Dharam Singh, Bhai Himmat Singh, Bhai Mohkam Singh and Bhai Sahib Singh BOWED to ONLY ONE GURU...GUru gobind Singh Ji...who instructed us to BOW to ONLY ONE GURU>>SGGS !! but we disobey HIM...and look elsewhere for "gurbani"....:happysingh::happysingh::happysingh::happysingh::happysingh:
     
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  20. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Left out:
    Since Guru nanak ji sahib himself chose the banis of Bhagats to be included in His Kitaab, and this was finalised by GURU ARJAN JI Sahib who wrote the AAD GRANTH (pothis sahib)..ALL that is inlcuded in SGGS NOW under Bhagat bani, Bhatt Bnai, Sheikh farid Jis bani etc etc are ALL GURBANI simply becasue 1.) Guru Nanak ji, Guru Arjan jia nd Guru gobind Singh Ji ENDORSED it all as GURBANI and 2.) Now its not within our purview to remove/add anything to our GURU as oNLy a GURU can do that.

    WE SIKHS have NO CONCERN with anything OUTSIDE the SGGS. IF Tomorrow someone comes along and says he found a Kitaab of Guru nanak ji with additional Gurbani...IT WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED. PERIOD.:happysingh:
     
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  21. roopsidhu

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    SSA
    GIANI JI WROTE
    ALL that is inlcuded in SGGS NOW under Bhagat bani, Bhatt Bnai, Sheikh farid Jis bani etc etc are ALL GURBANI simply becasue 1.) Guru Nanak ji, Guru Arjan jia nd Guru gobind Singh Ji ENDORSED it all as GURBANI and 2.) Now its not within our purview to remove/add anything to our GURU as oNLy a GURU can do that.

    YES, GURUS HAS ENDORSED BHAGAT BANI AS GURBANI ( GURU'S WORDS). IF SRI GURU NANAK DEV JI HAD ENDORSED THE BHAGAT BANI AS GURBANI THEN WHY RENDORCEMENT WAS NEEDED BY OTHER GURUS.. WE MUST READ SGGS JI TO FIND THAT WHAT GURUS HAS WRITTEN ABOUT SANTS AND BHAGATS AND WHAT DEGREE OF REGARDS IS GIVEN TO THEM BY GURUS. I CAN NOT UNDERSTAND WHY WE SIKHS ALWAYS TRY TO DEMEAN BHAGATS AND SANTS WHO WERE OVERWHELMELY REGARDED BY OUR BELOVED SIKH GURU JI'S.
    I ALWAYS REGARD GIANI JI'S ANSWERS AS BEST ACORDING TO SGGS JI. MY KNOWLEDGE ABOUT SIKHI IS SURELY NOT AS COMPLTE AS GIANI JI'S. MAY BE I HAVE UNDERSTOOD THE SENTENCE WRONGLY BUT I FELT IT THE WAY I HAVE EXPRESSED.
    SORYY FOR ANY MISTAKES
    BHUL CHUK MAAF
    ROOPSIDHU
     
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