Basics Of Sikhi

[Kully]

Another member here on spn findingmyway explaind the meaning of tenth gate very well i think
"The dasam dwar is not mystical but refers to the brain. The brain is the site of consciousness, integrating physical and emotional information and controlling how we behave both physically, morally and spiritually. Therefore the brain is the door to our consciousness. The Guru's always tried to make everything accessible to all regardless of their background so it doesn't make sense that such an important door should be so mysterious. Without a brain, spirituality cannot be accessed so we all have a dasam dwar. However, the choice is whether to open it to spirituality and a Sikh way of life."

Sir, this is quite interesting and thank you for sharing it. The dasam dwar cannot be a physical gate as it would be no different from the other 9 gates of the body. Well certainly not enough to afford it an seperate mention in Gurbani, and an exalted status in Gurmat.

"Mysterious" may be a little inappropriate to describe the dasam dwar, as Guru Granth Sahib does not cloud it under a veil of secrecy or mystery. Instead Guru Sahib desctribes it a goal, or stage to be worked for. Guru Sahib is very explicit when talking about Dasam Dwar in Anand Sahib.

 

[techsingh]

Sir, reincarnation is not exclusive to brahmanism. Heaven and hell are abrahamic concepts, which are rigid. Heaven and hell in Gurmat is not rigid, they are not permanent abodes. Neither are they exclusively brahmanism.

Guru Granth Sahib tells and warns us about heaven and hell, and not in a metaphorical or literal sense. There are many lines where "narak" is mentioned. How could such a warning of a metaphorical or literal hell make sense?

Similarly, Guru Granth Sahib tells us about reincarnation. repeatedly. And not in a metaphorical or literal sense either. But in actual practice. Again these are not exclusively Brahman concepts. They may be, along with other concepts in Gurmat be shared or found , partially or in totalility, in other belief systems, but to say that these concepts may not have any place with Gurmat, because they are found elsewhere seems a little on the preposterous side.

Tell me your definition of narak and reincarnation according to gurmat.

 

[Kully]

Tell me your definition of narak and reincarnation according to gurmat.

Narak is a place which exists where sinners are taken (from Guru Granth Sahib).

Reincarnation is process whereby the soul takes the forms of different bodies evolving through different life forms before being given the boon of a human body, from which vessel he/she is able to reconnect with the Primal Soul (from Guru Granth Sahib).

 

[Original]

Good morning techsingh ji -

Thank you for sharing your thoughts !

I've read with interest all that you we've said and offer by way of an explanation some rational basis to help understand the term "dasam dwar".

Just as there is a science of letters n grammar, so there is a spiritual science of the soul. Spiritual Sikhism is to that end, and as such has a glossary of terms just like grammar and letters has in literature. Dasam dwar is one such term.

In discussing stories, poems/shabds the first question we usually formulate is: what is it about ? what is the writer trying to tell us ? To ask these kind of formal questions is to conceive the entire shabd as an object made out of words. Poets use imagery and words with different connotations and denotations to contribute to tone, meaning and message. Guru Amardas is indeed explicit when he uses imagery as a figurative [10th gate of the body] language to evoke mental picture following the sentence preceding it, which is, ਨਉ ਦਰ ਠਾਕੇ ਧਾਵਤੁ ਰਹਾਏ [9 gates of the body]. So yes, you're right, he is talking literally but using figurative language to illustrate the 10th gate after the 9 gates of the body [2 eyes, 2 ears, 2 nostrils, mouth and 2 lower organs]. That makes it very specific and explicit.

If that'd be correct then it rules out all notions of ਮੁਹਾਵਰੇ [idiom usage] and is therefore, specifically carved out to convey the 10th part of the body. Even by definition it cannot be an idiom. Look at the definition of an idiom:

1. a group of words established by usage as having a meaning not deducible from those of the individual words (e.g. over the moon, see the light ).

Clearly, in the shabd above the figure 10 is deducible from the preceding verse accounting the figure 9.

And, if I may add, change the words of the text, and you start changing the desired intent of the writer in greater or lesser degree. Spiritual Sikhism has a glossary of terms and the 9 and 10 figurative uses are from within that conceptual theoretical standpoint.

Hope that helps -

Much obliged !

 

[Harry Haller]

Sir, do you feel there is a "peaking" of Naam? I would assert that Naam as is Waheguru, is ever-expanding.

even ever expanding will have a peak, even if only for the moment, you are talking of an infinitive peak..

 

[techsingh]

Narak is a place which exists where sinners are taken (from Guru Granth Sahib).

Reincarnation is process whereby the soul takes the forms of different bodies evolving through different life forms before being given the boon of a human body, from which vessel he/she is able to reconnect with the Primal Soul (from Guru Granth Sahib).

We totally disagree. For me narak is here and now. If we dont practice the truth its narak.
Reincarnation is here and now also being born and dying everday without the truth,
Gobind milan ke eh tery baria.
No chance everagain this is your chance now. It is here and now. No fear of hell or joy of heaven in a far off place it takes place everyday in our lives. No need to do tapaysa for hours on an end with closed eyes. Gurmat makes it simply. Listen to the truth. Speak the truth and live the truth.

 

[chazSingh]

I have always felt the same, is there anyone that feels substantially different? Is the Dasam Duar no more than the peaking of the state of Naam?

What is the state of Naam? And What is it's peak?

 

[chazSingh]

We totally disagree. For me narak is here and now. If we dont practice the truth its narak.
Reincarnation is here and now also being born and dying everday without the truth,
Gobind milan ke eh tery baria.
No chance everagain this is your chance now. It is here and now. No fear of hell or joy of heaven in a far off place it takes place everyday in our lives. No need to do tapaysa for hours on an end with closed eyes. Gurmat makes it simply. Listen to the truth. Speak the truth and live the truth.

What is Living the Truth?

 

[chazSingh]

Exactly but my definition of dasam duar from a gurmat prespective is not same as yours. For me it means peace of mind, happiness by practcing gurbani. I think key to understanding gurbani is that you must understand ਮੁਹਾਵਰੇ idioms.

I think i quit worrying about definitions a while back...
Basically my definitions or perspectives, or understanding from a intellectual point of view were thrown right into the Bin when i started Simran...

One Cannot understand Dassam Duaar or Naam or anything without experiencing it...
Are there heavens and Hells in a far away distant place? i Dont know...Heaven and Hell exists right here also...so why do i care if they exists anywhere else?

What i know is that there is an endless infinite creation out there accessible without a spaceship...all through the Body...its vast...its immense....sounds crazy, but Guru Nanak Dev Ji's DEscription of Endless creations, reals, universes or whatever is real...Your inner vision will reveal, through your simran...


You see, the reciting of Shabad is not the be all and end all, it just helps one develop a still and focused and powerful mind (not the brain)...and then a person is most likely ready to handle what lies ahead...whilst holding back and controlling worldly desires...

The Student in the Classroom, stops to daydream, and starts paying attention...and with the aid of the teacher, starts a pretty cool journey or discovery

But if you don;t agree with this, then keep doing what you're doing, live as truthfully as you can, warn truthfully, share without wanting reward...what can;t be great in this?

God Bless

 

[Original]

techsingh jee - you're almost there !

Listen to the truth

..yes !

Speak the truth

...yes !

live the truth

...yes !

But, what truth ?

 

[chazSingh]

techsingh jee - you're almost there !


..yes !

...yes !

...yes !

But, what truth ?

Bravo!

 

[Harry Haller]

One Cannot understand Dassam Duaar or Naam or anything without experiencing it...

Can one tell the difference? Is there a difference? surely they both describe heightened states of awareness?

I will find appropriate threads for both subjects and reopen them so that we can define both the terms above, or it is possible the thread concludes both topics, which will then save us much time rather than go over old ground here.

 

[Original]

Can one tell the difference? Is there a difference? surely they both describe heightened states of awareness?

..allow me to lead Sir !
In answering what appears to be a cooperative enquiry on your part H, one must accord with the wisdom found on page 340 off SGGSJ, which is, "..no letters of any alphabet can account what lays beyond the 10th gate" [॥ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਛਰ ਲੋਕ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਸਭੁ ਕਛੁ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ ਏ ਅਖਰ ਖਿਰਿ ਜਾਹਿਗੇ ਓਇ ਅਖਰ ਇਨ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 340SGGSJ; in bold]. In other words, ineffable, a state beyond time and space. Those who experience it or indeed, have experienced it cannot speak because the subject matter is incomprehensible. IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE BECAUSE IT DEFIES ALL LAWS OF RATIONAL AND EMPERICAL ENQUIRY AND OBSERVATION, RESPECTIVELY. Those who have had the experience are forever silenced for they become the living testament to what is the "ultimate truth", meaning, satnam. This is more commonly referred to as the mystical experience or religious experience of humankind.

Goodnight Sir and God bless you !

 

[Kully]

We totally disagree. For me narak is here and now. If we dont practice the truth its narak.
Reincarnation is here and now also being born and dying everday without the truth,
Gobind milan ke eh tery baria.
No chance everagain this is your chance now. It is here and now. No fear of hell or joy of heaven in a far off place it takes place everyday in our lives. No need to do tapaysa for hours on an end with closed eyes. Gurmat makes it simply. Listen to the truth. Speak the truth and live the truth.

Narak can be here and now, but it is subjective to your past karma and present karma. Imagine someone going through life everyday WITHOUT living, speaking or listening to the truth but still having the time of his life. Is it hell for him? He will tell you no. But when he dies there will be a hell for him. Gurbani says so. There is hell in the next world, which no-one can avoid if they don't follow the path of Dharma. It won't be permanent, but there will a sojourn and residence there for some time.

Nobody only has one chance to experience Waheguru, unless they subscribe to Semetic philosophies. There are people born in this world who have NO chance of experiencing Waheguru because of physical or other handicaps. Would you say that this should be their one and only chance?

It is absolutely essential to do Nam Simran. Gurbani says it over and over. It is one of the pillars of Gurmat.

 

[chazSingh]

..allow me to lead Sir !
In answering what appears to be a cooperative enquiry on your part H, one must accord with the wisdom found on page 340 off SGGSJ, which is, "..no letters of any alphabet can account what lays beyond the 10th gate" [॥ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਛਰ ਲੋਕ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਸਭੁ ਕਛੁ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ ਏ ਅਖਰ ਖਿਰਿ ਜਾਹਿਗੇ ਓਇ ਅਖਰ ਇਨ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 340SGGSJ; in bold]. In other words, ineffable, a state beyond time and space. Those who experience it or indeed, have experienced it cannot speak because the subject matter is incomprehensible. IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE BECAUSE IT DEFIES ALL LAWS OF RATIONAL AND EMPERICAL ENQUIRY AND OBSERVATION, RESPECTIVELY. Those who have had the experience are forever silenced for they become the living testament to what is the "ultimate truth", meaning, satnam. This is more commonly referred to as the mystical experience or religious experience of humankind.

Goodnight Sir and God bless you !

I couldn't have put it better myself.

God bless

 

[techsingh]

techsingh jee - you're almost there !


..yes !

...yes !

...yes !

But, what truth ?

This is the truth.
"ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ "

Hukam is also a truth. Accepting and living according to hukam is living the truth.

 

[techsingh]

Bravo!

I don't know what your trying to imply here.

 

[techsingh]

Narak can be here and now, but it is subjective to your past karma and present karma.

What was the first Karma? This has been discussed here many times.

Imagine someone going through life everyday WITHOUT living, speaking or listening to the truth but still having the time of his life. Is it hell for him? He will tell you no. But when he dies there will be a hell for him

That person has just lived like any other animal. Then he/she dies, thats it. He never questions his existence thus failing at life without even noticing that he has failed. "Man search within your heart everyday"

There is hell in the next world, which no-one can avoid if they don't follow the path of Dharma. It won't be permanent, but there will a sojourn and residence there for some time.

This is a Christian, Islamic and Vedic belief. Predates Sikhi. Hence thats why others say Sikhi is nothing new because of wrong interpretations based on those beliefs.

Nobody only has one chance to experience Waheguru, unless they subscribe to Semetic philosophies. There are people born in this world who have NO chance of experiencing Waheguru because of physical or other handicaps. Would you say that this should be their one and only chance?

Only one chance. Deformities are deformities, not a punishment from a bearded man. Its part of nature. You know if you have sex with your cousin/sister or brother, chances are the child will be born deformed/il. When one or other parent is deformed or has a an illness that might effect the child, well they should not conceive a child. Rather than blaming ੴ. ੴ is not in the business of punishment. Life is well just life, somedays are better than others.

It is absolutely essential to do Nam Simran. Gurbani says it over and over. It is one of the pillars of Gurmat.

What is Naam Simran? Parroting a particular mantar? I don't find this to be right. Yogis and others were already doing this. Why Would Guru Nanak prescribe the same practice to his Sikhs? Could it be that we have totally mis-understood the meaning of Naam-Simran. I think so.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Techsingh Ji

Science already proves that what we consider to be matter in this physical universe is not really what we think it is. It's an illusion. Electrons actually only exist because of a 'conscious' observer collapsing the wave function. Otherwise nothing would be solid. (Google double slit experiment). our own bodies and brains are made up of these very electrons as they are intrinsic in EVERY atom in existence. If our consciousness was just a product of the brain and impermanent then who is 'observing' us into existence and why do we posses the same ability to affect matter in this way ourselves? The truth is consciousness is not a product of anything. In fact it's the other way around. Everything is a product of consciousness. And consciousness just IS. Scientists are fighting this discovery tooth and nail because they don't like to admit that yes... It appears that 'we' exist as one pool of conscious energy in a quantum state -- somewhere else!

How does this relate to Sikhi? Guru Nanak Dev Ji discovered there is no birth and death because he knew that truth. Once you know that everything in this creation is merely like a dream (or a play) and that ALL the characters are being played by the ONE same dreamer or (actor) then you understand there is ultimately no death - does the actor die when he removes a costume? Does the dreamer die when he awakens from the dream and is no longer the character in the dream? By the way both analogies are used as metaphor in Gurbani to explain it!! You will find a shabad on Ang 736 for one...

The reason even hell / heaven are not true is that there is only ONE. If there is only one consciousness in existence (which we are all a part of) then how can there truly be a hell? Hell would be not realizing that truth! Hell would be believing that our lives are meaningless and impermanent. Hell would be not knowing our true identity! Just like heaven - the idea of heaven implies a separate place where everything is hunky dory - but any idea of separateness from anything else is still hell to me. Duality is hell. Truth is ONEness. Surpassing the ego identity and becoming ONE again.

We are act of the ONE creator (nirgun unmanifest) becoming self aware by experiencing itself subjectively (Sargun manifest) through its own creation - like a dream, thought... As ONE it was impossible to do that because there was no 'other'. When you understand this you understand why there is no birth and no death. And reincarnation does not have the same meaning. Every night I dream I am some different character it's never the same (well maybe sometimes if I really like that dream) but it's wrong to think of any one individual character in any of my dreams reincarnating. They are not real. I am the one behind all of them. So if I dream tonight I am a pilot - (in reality I am also all the passengers too! And the plane and the sky because they are ALL within my dream and I control them all) but anyway let's say I am focused on playing the part of the pilot. When I wake up tomorrow did the pilot really die??? Does the pilot reincarnate? You will say no because the pilot was never real... That's the realization! Right there! And Chaz Ji will know what I am talking about! Wake up from this dream!

 

[Kully]

This is a Christian, Islamic and Vedic belief.

Abrahamic faiths beleive heaven and hell to be permanent. Gurbani does not.

Only one chance. Deformities are deformities, not a punishment from a bearded man.

What bearded man?

What is Naam Simran? Parroting a particular mantar?

Parroting is doing naam simran with no focus on the divine.

Yogis and others were already doing this. Why Would Guru Nanak prescribe the same practice to his Sikhs?

Yogis and others had their focus on the Tridev, and/or other devi devtas. Guru Sahib told them the power behind these beings.