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Bani

Discussion in 'Sikh Youth' started by QUEST1984, Apr 28, 2007.

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  1. QUEST1984

    QUEST1984
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    Kabeer, rare is such a person, who remains dead while yet alive. [1364]

    Sorry im a little confused about this bani; 'dead while yet alive'

    could anyone explainn to me what it means?

    thanks


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  3. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    QUEST JI


    Kabeer is not easy. His use of imagery is difficult because the mental images in one part of a poem have no clue in something more concrete, or they are linked to other images that also have no clue in something concrete.

    Thanks for the page number. Kabeer has become a kind of hobby for me. Looking up his verses to see what the entire poem seems to be saying. This starated on SPN by the way. SPN is a vast ocean of mental challenges, as you have probably already noticed.

    Tonight I will find the entire poem, and try to figure it out. By then a well-versed expert on Kabeer is certain to respond. But I will post anyway. My hunch is that Kabeer is saying this: There only a few people who have truly died unto themselves, have detached from Ego, and in a sense have died, as their Ego identity is no more. These rare people are alive in another way. They are alive because they are imbued with the blessings of Akal Purath, Satgur, Waheguru.

    In the meantime, I did find a web site with a number of references from Siri Guru Granth Sahib ji that appear to describe related ideas.

    He is truly blind, who follows the way shown by the blind man. O Nanak
    why should the one who can see, get lost? Do not call them blind, who
    have no eyes in their face. They alone are blind, O Nanak, who wander
    away from their Pure Being (sggs 954). Without the Shabad (or Divine
    Name), the world does not hear, and does not see; deaf and blind, it
    wanders around (sggs 429). Those who do not serve the True Guru (the
    Self, God, etc.), and who do not contemplate the Word of the Shabad (or
    Divine Name) - Spiritual Wisdom does not enter into their Heart; they are
    like dead bodies in the world (sggs 88). They do not serve the True Guru,
    and they do not embrace love for the Divine Name. Do not even think that
    they are alive - the Creator Himself has killed them (sggs 589). The
    Manmukhs (material beings) are sick and diseased in the world (sggs 118).


    Good question.
     
    #2 spnadmin, Apr 28, 2007
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  4. simpy

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    Respected Quest 1984 Ji,


    What me neech understand is: here Kabir Ji is talking about iness. Human Life is given to a Soul to find its Eternal abode. and to get there Iness/Haumai/mai/Mera/ has to be eradicated. Live the life while keeping your EGO dead/eradicated/smothered :) . (ego is always there to attack in many forms so seeker/bhagat has to be very careful of this enemy all the time-KEEP IT UNDER CHECK)


    so Kabir Ji is saying, while living this human life, having your iness killed-IS DONE BY VERY RARE PEOPLE.

    open to questions and concerns

    forgive me please

     
  5. ekmusafir_ajnabi

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    The question you asked is quite fundamental for a sikh because this is the pre-requiste for one who wishes to dwell on the path of sikhi. Yet it is the most difficult to follow and extremely confusing for some even to understand it.

    In order to understand what Bhagat Kabeer ji is saying, explain what is your terminology of Life and Death.
     
  6. QUEST1984

    QUEST1984
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    Life and death are both the same i see no difference between either state.
     
  7. simpy

    simpy
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    Respected Saadh Sangat Ji

    Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Arjan Dev Ji De Bachan

    pihlw mrxu kbUil jIvx kI Cif Aws ]
    hohu sBnw kI ryxukw qau Awau hmwrY pwis ]




    forgive me please
     
  8. QUEST1984

    QUEST1984
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    ^^^ sorry u've lost me.
     
  9. simpy

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    Quest Ji think over it for a few days- Life and Death of what??????

    What is Iness
    What is life
    What is All

    MOOL MANTRA, Siri Japji Sahib Ji's first two pauris- Do some Vichaar on that ..... (Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji-PAGE 1)

    puzzle will start to get solved.........:)
    forgive me please
     
  10. spnadmin

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    QUEST1984 ji,

    With your forgiveness, I am starting your thread BANI over again for you.

    You asked about the meaning of this line from a shalok of Kabeer the Poet, "Kabeer, rare is such a person, who remains dead while yet alive." The line is to be technically correct a raag or song. Surinder Cheema ji and I had responded. But in the return of the new web "site, your thread and our responses were lost. Eventually they will be uploaded again. I was able to find your post in my browser History, but not our responses.

    So starting over because it is so interesting, here is your statement.

    Kabeer, rare is such a person, who remains dead while yet alive. [1364]

    Sorry im a little confused about this bani; 'dead while yet alive'

    could anyone explainn to me what it means?

    thanks


    This is what I found for you. Kabir was a Muslim poet, probably a mystic, and his shaloks are in the raag section of Siri Guru Granth Sahib. There are many internet sites about him. All you have to do is Google Kabeer or Kabir. His poetry, it is said, has remained popular with Sikhs, Muslims and Hindus over many generations because he used the language of ordinary people and scenes from everyday life.

    The shalok is much too long to post. But here is the link.
    http://www.{url not allowed}/sggs/translation/1364.html


    Many of the images describe a state of love—this is a kind of love poem. The lover Kabeer is nothing without his connection to God. At the beginning of the shalok, Kabeer compares his relationship with the Lord to a bumble bee that clings to the lotus flower. He says that we are miserable when our hearts are not pierced by the love of Waheguru “when mortals forget the Merciful Lord God, then they are truly plundered.” He would give up everything to be at the lotus feet of Waheguru, and that is where inspired souls desire to be at all times. Kabeer compares his state of mind to an intoxication with Waheguru, and the eyes of Waheguru to lotus eyes. Kabeer lists all of the things that a person can be attached to, even the climbing of a mountain, as nothing compared to the mystery of Satguru.

    So as Surinder ji has said, this is about losing oneself. Kabeer is talking about losing oneself in love. “Kabeer, kill only that, which, when killed, shall bring peace.” The line you quoted (line 15) is saying it is rare to find people who have died by leaving their ego's or separate identities behind in order to live their love of a merciful and loving God.


    Once things are back to normal either Aman Singh or one of the moderators (Surinder ji probably) will be able to retrieve the original conversation and connect it up with any responses on this thread that happen.

    Hope to hear from you
     
  11. simpy

    simpy
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    he he, it happened to me too yesterday :)

    Respected ekmusafir ajnabi ji PLEASE CONTINUE, sorry for the interruptionsssssssss...
    YOUR VALUABLE INPUT IS APPRECIATED AS ALWAYS.

    forgive this moor
     
  12. spnadmin

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    QUEST ji,

    Did my homework. With Kabeer, you always have to read the entire poem to understand a single line.

    When we read the entire shalok, it is clear that Kabeer is not talking about being physically dead.

    This is what I found for you. Kabeer or Kabir was a Muslim poet, probably a mystic, and his shaloks are in the raag section of Siri Guru Granth Sahib. There are many internet sites about him. All you have to do is Google Kabeer or Kabir. His poetry, it is said, has remained popular with Sikhs, Muslims and Hindus over many generations because he used the language of ordinary people and scenes from everyday life.

    The shalok is much too long to post. But here is the link.
    PAGE 1364 - Gurmukhi to English Translation and Phonetic Transliteration of Siri Guru Granth Sahib.


    Many of the verses describe a state of being in love—this is a kind of love poem. The lover Kabeer feels he is nothing without his connection to God. At the beginning of the shalok, Kabeer compares his relationship with Waheguru to a bumble bee that clings to the lotus flower. He says that we are miserable when our hearts are not pierced by the love of Waheguru “when mortals forget the Merciful Lord God, then they are truly plundered.” He would give up everything to be at the lotus feet of Waheguru, and that is where the people who love God desire to be at all times. Kabeer compares his state of mind to drunkenness, or intoxication with Waheguru. He says the eyes of Waheguru are lotus eyes. Kabeer lists all of the things that a person can be attached to, even the climbing of a mountain, as nothing compared to his love of Waheguru.

    So as Surinder ji has said, this is about the death of I-ness. Kabeer is talking about losing I-ness in love. He says in the same shalok, “Kabeer, kill only that, which, when killed, shall bring peace.” The line you quoted (line 15) is saying it is rare to find people who have died by losing the “I” so that they can live their love of a merciful and loving God.

    Kabeer is giving us a picture of how to love Waheguru.
     
    #11 spnadmin, Apr 28, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 28, 2007
  13. ekmusafir_ajnabi

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    Life and Death cannot be the same. Life is already being lived. It has happened, you are seing and experiencing the results. It cannot be changed(but can be modified thro Naam Simran). Death is yet to happen. So you can make changes to it, you can give it a direction.

    The life we talk about is where we are racing against a train. We do not have to but we do, it is our choice. The living death we will talk about is one where you are sitting in a train, everything is happening around you without your interference.

    The death referred to in Kabeer ji's Shalok is the contentment of all senses. When your senses refuse to indulge in pleasure any more.

    You hear only that, that is necessary,
    You talk only that, that is necessary,
    You smell only that, that is necessary,
    You see only that, that is necessary
    You eat only that is necessary for survival

    - Anand Sahib
    AMdrhu ijn kw mohu qutw iqn kw sbdu scY svwirAw ]
    andrahu jin kaa moh tutaa tin kaa sabad sachai savaari-aa.
    Those who eradicate attachment from within themselves, are adorned with the Shabad, the Word of the True Lord.
    - Anand Sahib

    Bgqw kI cwl inrwlI ]
    bhagtaa kee chaal niraalee.
    The lifestyle of the devotees is unique and distinct.
    cwlw inrwlI Bgqwh kyrI ibKm mwrig clxw ]
    chaalaa niraalee bhagtaah kayree bikham maarag chalnaa.
    The devotees' lifestyle is unique and distinct; they follow the most difficult path.
    lbu loBu AhMkwru qij iqRsnw bhuqu nwhI bolxw ]
    lab lobh ahaNkaar taj tarisnaa bahut naahee bolnaa.
    They renounce greed, avarice, egotism and desire; they do not talk too much.
    KMinAhu iqKI vwlhu inkI eyqu mwrig jwxw ]
    khanni-ahu tikhee vaalahu nikee ayt maarag jaanaa.
    The path they take is sharper than a two-edged sword, and finer than a hair.
    gur prswdI ijnI Awpu qijAw hir vwsnw smwxI ]
    gur parsaadee jinee aap taji-aa har vaasnaa samaanee.
    By Guru's Grace, they shed their selfishness and conceit; their hopes are merged in the Lord.
    khY nwnku cwl Bgqw jughu jugu inrwlI ]14]
    kahai naanak chaal bhagtaa jugahu jug niraalee. ||14||
    Says Nanak, the lifestyle of the devotees, in each and every age, is unique and distinct. ||14||

    Your sences refuse to co-operate with you anymore, like that of a dead person. Desire is instigated by the thought process. If there is no thought there is no desire. When there is no desire, there is no life. So there should be death of thought too. So the life you will then lead will be a dead one. This is when you will become fearless. Because there is no one to fear from. Everything is now under control.There will be darkness all around you. All you will then see is the Lord Himself. The only one left will be just the Lord Himself.


    Surinder Kaur Cheema ji - This takes you far beyond the "I". You may eliminate you "I", but the "Hukam" needs to be obeyed too. "Hukam encompases all that discussed above and more"

    kbIr AYsw eyku AwDu jo jIvq imrqku hoie ]
    kubeer aisaa eaek aadh jo jeevuth miruthuk hoe
    Kabeer, rare is such a person, who remains dead while yet alive.

    [COLOR=red][FONT=Verdana]So Kabeer ji is saying rare is such person who has reached this state of mind, Where everything around him is dead yet he is alive i.e[/FONT]. [FONT=Verdana]his presence is still being felt.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    inrBY hoie kY gun rvY jq pyKau qq [COLOR=blue][FONT=GurbaniAkharHeavy]soie[/FONT][/COLOR] ]5]
    nirubhai hoe kai gun ruvai juth paekho thuth soe
    Singing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, he is fearless. Wherever I look, the Lord is there. ||5||
    [SIZE=3]In that state where you become fearless, and you Sing the Glorious Praises, where ever you see it will be the lord himself. You wll realise your true identity.[/SIZE]


    [SIZE=3]The above is my humble understanding[/SIZE]












     
  14. kaur-1

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    Sikhiwiki has a page on "Jivan Mukta"

    Jivan mukta - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.

    "
    Jivan mukta

    From SikhiWiki

    Jump to: navigation, search
    JIVAN-MUKTA in Sikhism the ideal and aim or objective of man’s spiritual life. The term is derived from jivan-mukti (jivan=life; mukti=release, liberation, emancipation freedom from bondage), and means one who has attained liberation from human bondage or one who has attained to the highest spiritual state of being in tune with the Ultimate while still living. The idea of mukti is encountered, with some conceptual variations, in practically all religious faiths, e.g. moksa in Hinduism, nirvana in Buddhism, Nijat in Islam and salvation in Christianity. The belief underlying the concept of mukti is, that the soul, a particle of the Supreme Soul, is, while embedded in the physical frame, in a state of viyog or separation and longs for sanyog or reunion with its source, which for it is the supreme bliss.

    If the body is the cause of the soul's bondage, it is clear that its release essentially involves its separation from the earthly cage, meaning death; and that is how it is generally understood. In the Indian context mukti means deliverance of the human soul from the cycle of birth, death and rebirth to which it is destined in consequence of its past and present karma (actions, deeds). Various ways, such as spiritual knowledge (jnana marg) disinterested service, ritualism (karma marg), austerities (hath yoga) and devotion to God (bhakti marg) are suggested to break the incarnation cycle. Whatever the soteriological means, the end is usually sought in the cessation of incarnate existence. Besides this idea of videh (incorporeal) mukti, however, references to the concept of jivan-mukti are also found in the ancient scriptural literature of India. But it is in the bani (utterances) of the Sikh Gurus that jivan-mukti and jivan-mukta receive a greater emphasis and fuller treatment.

    The saint-poets of the Bhakti movement had freely employed the vocabulary of mukti. Guru Nanak and his spiritual successors accepted the terminology made current in the preceding generations by sages and men of piety. But, as in the case of numerous other concepts, the expression mukti is invested with a new meaning in their bani. It is no longer the annihilation of human existence but the spiritual quality of one's life that serves as the central principle in the Sikh conception of mukti. The body constitutes no barrier between the soul and the Supreme Soul. On the contrary, "the body is the fort limitless wherein resides He, the Cherisher Himself" (GG, 514). "Within the body resides the Ineffable One; the manmukh (the self-willed) fool does not know this and roams abroad in search of Him" (GG, 754). Guru Arjan goes to the extent of rejecting mukti in the traditional sense of a post-death state and substitutes it with constant love of the Divine as the ideal state of being (GG, 534).

    The root cause of the alienation of the human soul from its Supreme source is avidya (ignorance), according to the Vedantic way. In Buddhism, where nirvana means soul's freedom from suffering, the cause of suffering is trsna (craving). The Gurus, however, hold haumai (the individuating sense of ego or I-ness) as the cause of ignorance, craving and bondage, as also of suffering. If liberation is sought, it is not from life or body but from the shackles of ego. Guru Nanak's definition of jivan-mukta, therefore, is in terms of the negation of egoism:
    He alone is liberated while still living Who is cleansed of the ego inside (GG, 1010). The state of egolessness is the state of perfect detachment, not of renunciation, nor of self-mortification.

    The jivan-mukta of Sikh conception is the realized soul, identified as gurmukh (one whose face is turned towards God). He leads the life of a common householder enriched by the experience of spiritual harmony within. "He surrenders himself completely to the Will of God; joy and sorrow are the same to him; he experiences bliss always and viyog (separation) never" (GG, 275). Instead of the differentiating ego, the all-encompassing Divine Spirit resides in him. Existentially he belongs to the world, essentially he transcends the world.

    A variant of the term jivan-mukti in gurbani is dying-in-life (jivat marna). The paradoxical expression of dying while alive is employed by the Gurus in order to stress the importance of abandoning one type of life and the adoption of another. It is dying to the life of haumai, of ‘five evils', and entering into a life of contemplation, altruism and love of God. The person attaining to the state of jivat-marna, in this sense, is the one qualified for the designation of jivan-mukta. He or she is the one who has realized the essence of human life, the essential life, concealed under the sheaths of egoism, of ignorance, passion, avarice, pride and infatuation.

    The ideal state of jivan-mukta is, notionally, within the reach of every human being, since anyone following an ethical and spiritual course faithfully, may receive the nadar (God's grace or blessing). Yet, as the Gurus point out, rare are the individuals who actually arrive at the summit. The blessed few, fulfilled by the experience of Supreme realization, set out to serve their companions. They strive for the total well-being of fellow men, in all spheres of existence. However, the success of a jivan-mukta in heralding an order of enlightened individuals or the Kingdom of God on earth, is not to be measured in terms of the number of "converts" to his way of life, but in terms of the model of humane, and enlightened living he presents for emulation."
     
  15. simpy

    simpy
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    respected Ekmusafir Ajnabi Ji,

    very well explained. just want to add one thing-

    killing iness, going beyond iness and coming under hukam-more or less represent the same thing(mental state).

    one cannot kill iness without coming under Hukam, Hukan cannot be followed if iness is there.

    as Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nank Dev Ji says in JapJi Sahib Pauri 2

    NANAK HUKMEY JE BUJHAI TA HAUMAI KAHAY NA KOI....:)


    humbly asking for forgiveness.
     

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