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Banda Bahadur = Guru Gobind Singh?

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Sikh Chela, Aug 8, 2008.

  1. Sikh Chela

    Sikh Chela
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    I have heard talk of a theory presented some years ago that Banda Bahadur was actually Guru Gobind Singh Ji. I'm not sure of the name but there was a Sikh writer a few years ago who initially brought up this theory (If anyone knows his name, I would be very interested to know). At first, of course, I dismissed the thought immediately as a crazy conspiricy theory but over the years I have thought about it a lot and some 'coincidences' seem like they should be at the very least explored further.

    Below I have listed the points which I believe could be used to support this theory:

    1. Both Guru Ji and Banda were of approximately the same age. Written records indicate Guru Ji was born in 1666 and Banda in 1670... not a distinguishable difference in men at the age of 40.

    2. Any written records that I have come across describe their physical features (height, build, etc) as being similar. In addition, any paintings or pictures that we have show them looking very similar (I realize this is a moot point because we don't have actual pictures of either, but nevertheless).

    3. Why would Guru Ji pick an unknown stranger with whom he had no history to lead his Sikhs? Does this really make sense? As far as I have read, Guru Ji was a very rational man and for him to select an unknown hermit with no battle experience as his general casts some doubt in my mind.

    4. I know we all believe that Guru Ji was a super-human being (had Guru Nanak's Jyot) but during his life he did show very human emotions and sometimes behaved in a very human way. If you rationally think about a man who has just lost his entire family, and especially the horrible bricking alive of his two young sons then how do you think this man would react? If it was me, I would seek revenge... much like Banda Bahadur did. It is sometimes hard for me to believe that Guru Ji would decide to sit idle at Nanded and appoint an unknown as the general of Sikh forces. What was he planning to do at Nanded while his beloved Sikhs spilled their blood? This action would be contradictory to the way Guru Ji behaved during his life. He was never one to sit idly by while others took up the charge. He was always the general, commanding his Sikhs.

    5. Most records of Guru Ji's death indicate that he died in Nanded of stab wounds that were aggrevated as he strung up a stiff bow. There is no precise record (that I have found) that indicates what actually happened to his body. I know this is a topic of much debate but most sources say that he went in to a tent and his body disappeared. I can not rationally believe that his body just dissapeared, so what really did happen to his body?

    Is it possible that Guru Ji decided to take up the cause in a different way and changed his name and rode to Punjab as Banda Bahadur? Is it possible that he was hurt enough by the cruelty of the situation and the mughal raj that he opted for revenge? I'm starting to feel that it may be possible.

    A man of relatively the same age as Guru Ji, that looked similar to Guru Ji, and had similar leadership skills in battle took over the Sikh army at exactly the same time that Guru Ji died. He then proceeded straight to Punjab to punish the executioners of Guru Ji's father and sons. To me it seems like it could be a well executed plan on behalf of Guru Ji.

    I hope I have not offended anyone and if I have then please forgive me and explain to me why I am so wrong or why what I have said is offensive to you.

    Sat Sri Akal

    Sikh Chela
     
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  3. Huck_Finn

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    interesting theory
     
  4. Randip Singh

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    I think Bandha's Sikh philosophy caused massive schisms in Sikhism, which led to many Sikhs not following his cause.

    Edicts such as not to eat garlic or onion was something that a Bairagi of Vashnavite leaning would utter, and not Guru ji (who had no such hang ups).

    His war cry of Fateh Darshan, caused a frackas amongst Sikhs.

    There are many other things, and this is why you will find some Sikhs will refer to him as as only Bandha Bahadhur and NOT Bandha SINGH Bahdhur.
     
  5. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    Ok just answer my 1 question

    What was the benefit to guru ji from becoming Guru gobind singh to Banda Bahadur
     
  6. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Banda Singh bahadur was arrested, brought to Delhi and executed. Thousands of Sikhs just "kept quiet" and never once called their GURU...GURU ?? why ?? Dont tell me not one recognised the GURU ??
    how is it possible the Mughal Govt failed to recognise him as "GGS" if indeed this weird theory is true ?

    To me this looks like a SPIN OFF from the NAMDHAREE THEORY of dehdharee gurus....they have their own "history" stating Guru Gobind Singh Ji escaped...lived for another hundred years or so hidden as Balak Singh and then passed over Gurgadhi to NAMDHAREE dehdharee "guru"..now into the 15th Gurudom.....Satguru jagjit Singh Ji. This theory is even more weird..GGS "hiding" ?? escaping ?? etc

    Sikhs have very little authentic written history....and now a days with the Computerised IT revolution any tom/****/harry..or santa banta chhanta can write a book sitting at home and publish it so cheaply....ARM CHAIR/KEYBOARD ACADEMICS/AUTHORS/HISTORIANS..are aplenty....not everythign written in a"book" is true ??
    JSGyani:inca:
     
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  7. Sikh Chela

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    I realize there are many things about Banda that do not coincide with the way that Guru Ji lived his life but as I pointed out earlier there are definitely some striking similarities.

    As far as I am aware, while Banda was alive there was no division or rift among the Sikhs. There were not many Sikhs that opposed him while he was alive, no more than opposed Guru Ji (example: 40 mukhtaa). The factions of Tat Khalsa and Bandai Khalsa came about after he died not while he was alive. I'm not aware of many sikhs 'not following his cause' while he was alive. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    Also, something like a war cry of 'Fateh Darshan' could easily have been initiated by a man like Guru Ji and it is less likely that Banda would have initited this second war cry. Think of all the changes that Guru Ji brought to Sikhism. A man like Guru Ji was not afraid of change, he brought many things to Sikhism that were revolutionary but he was not questioned because he was the Guru. In his lifetime he had become accustomed to changing the norm so it is possible that if and when he transformed his image to that of Banda he continued making these changes.
     
  8. Sikh Chela

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    There was a benefit. Primarily that Guru Ji could exact revenge. That is my whole point of why this 'crazy' theory makes some sense.

    I believe Sikhs of the time knew Guru Ji to be super-human. He was a king, he had a raj (kingdom). One day that raj was torn from him, along with everything else in his life... his family, his home, his freedom, etc. My contention is that these events affected Gobind Singh (the man, not the guru) in a way that they would affect any other man, super-human or not. How can any man not be emotionally affected while his two young sons have been bricked alive? He was broken and disheartened as a man but did not want to tarnish the image of the Nanak Jyot in any way. He realized that as Guru he could not seek the vengence needed to uproot the mughals. This is why he decided that the Guru Gobind Singh would have to die (in the eyes of the people) and a new leader born (Banda) who could exact the needed justice with a steel heart and yes, some cruelty.
     
  9. pk70

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    Sikh Chela ji
    There is a fiction which can be a reality, then there is a fantasies that bears no ground but imagination, even dreams are found to be true many times. Here is only one thing that proves you are only enjoying fantasy." Guru came to Punjab( as per your statement) to take revenge." He gathered a lot of people for his support, no one recognized him including those Muslims who had been hunting for Guru ji for a long time, failed to recognize him, Muslims who caught Banda Bahadur, couldnt recognize him who actually would have celebrated it by declaring" It is Sikhs Guru posing as Bhanda" Mughal records shows a token of honor was sent to Guru's wife, due to which some historians assumed him to be part of Mughal Army. Guru doesnt bear revenge. He was more worried about wellfare of Sikhs than the death of his sons. You and I can think like this because we are million away from Guru's state of mind. Why would he deceive his own wife to do that. It is sheer fantasy of that mind who is desparate to say" some thing new" Sant Singh Sekhon, a leftist tried first this thing unsuuccessfully;nothing adds up neither historically nor religiously or socially. Look at your own views, you admit, there is no authentic pictures of Guru ji or Banda Bahadur Ji, still you are comparing the features and looks ! You are just trying to share with us some body's fantansy I would call it " good try'
     
  10. Jaspreet08

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    This is quite a theory. I don't believe it, though. Here are couple points why I believe it to be false:

    1) Dhan Dhan Maharaj Shri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Ji would never have sought revenge. His rules of dharam yudh (religious war) clearly state that the this warfare should defensive and never aggressive.
    2) Satguru would have never sought to decieve his followers. How could the teacher of Truth be found to be a deceiver? Where does that leave his followers?

    WJKK
    WJKF

    Jaspreet
     
  11. Sikh Chela

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    I actually agree with you somewhat on this point and it is one of the reasons that I have never stated that this theory is fact.

    I don't know how the sikhs of the time would not recognize their Guru. As far as the Mughal gov't that was hunting the Guru, I'm not so sure that any of them had actually seen the Guru. If they had seen him they probably would have been close enough to capture/attack him.

    Most accounts of Banda indicate that he was excellent at disguising himself... could this have anything to do with no one identifying Banda as Guru Ji?
     
  12. Sikh Chela

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    JS Gyani,

    Respectfully, I feel it is quite unfair to classify this as a spin off of the namdharee theory. I am not a believer in the namdharee beliefs and to be concise, I do not 100%believe the banda=GGS theory either... but I do think it should be questioned and together maybe we can understand what really happened to Guru Gobind Singh Ji as there is really no clear account that I know of.

    The beauty of Sikhi and this forum is that we are learning from each other, as we are meant to. Please do not take the easy way out and discount this theory by simply associating it with the namdharees.
     
  13. pk70

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    As far as the Mughal gov't that was hunting the Guru, I'm not so sure that any of them had actually seen the Guru. If they had seen him they probably would have been close enough to capture/attack him.
    Sikh Chela jio,

    Then read the History, Guru Gobind Singh Visited Delhi to see Emperor Bahadur Shaw, it was a big deal, many of the right wing Muslims didn't like it a bit, when after some years Banda Bahadur ji was brought to Delhi, there was none to recognize him?, Mughal govt. used to send their spies to any organization of interest. Claiming, Muslims never saw him is very naive statement. We are talking about a very short period. Saying things about Guru based on ones own personal feeling about loosing family is not a factual point. Sant Bhindrawala was kept alive in Pakistan by some, in America, still some think Elvis is alive. Rumors should never be even considered worth a discussion to prove some thing. There are others who have based a sect on own fabricated story about Guru Gobind Singh ji. I wonder how Guru ji left Matta Sundri and lived for years to give gurgaddi to some one.
    Only thing that bothers me is to ignore Historical facts and keep weaving stories.
     
  14. Sikh Chela

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    I agree that it may be naive to state that the mughals never saw him but I was talking about the average mughal, not the elite few who may have stood face to face with Guru Ji.

    Secondly, I agree that what I have stated about this theory is not entirely (or at all) factual and that is why it is called a "theory". But I can assure you dear pk70 that what you read in history books is also not entirely factual either. As another blogger mentioned before, the record of sikh history during these crucial years is not documented well by anyone, especially from the Sikh point of view.

    And Lastly, never did I ever, nor would I ever, suggest that Guru Ji "gave the gurgaddi" to someone. I believe that he passed the gurgaddi to the Guru Granth Sahib so that there would not be any confusion in the future as you are suggesting.

    If you think I am ignoring 'historical facts' then please enlighten me and tell me where I can find these facts. I am trying to find facts but all I find is stories of the Guru's body 'magically' dissappearing after his death. He was a man, he knew it, and he died like a man. During his life he stated over and over again that he was a man and anyone who thought of him as anything higher (ie. God) would be condemned to hell. He did not believe in magic or chamatkars, and neither did his father Guru Teg Bahadur Ji so how did his body dissapear? That may be the original question that sparked me to explore this theory further.
     
  15. spnadmin

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    Singh, Prithi Pal. The history of Sikh Gurus. Lotus Press, 158. ISBN 8183820751.


    Soundar, Chitra. Gateway to Indian Culture. Asiapac Books (p) Ltd., 59. ISBN 9812293272.
     
  16. pk70

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    If you think I am ignoring 'historical facts' then please enlighten me and tell me where I can find these facts. I am trying to find facts but all I find is stories of the Guru's body 'magically' dissappearing after his death. He was a man, he knew it, and he died like a man. During his life he stated over and over again that he was a man and anyone who thought of him as anything higher (ie. God) would be condemned to hell. He did not believe in magic or chamatkars, and neither did his father Guru Teg Bahadur Ji so how did his body dissapear? That may be the original question that sparked me to explore this theory further.
    Sikh Chela ji
    I am not saying only you are ignoring History, it was hinted at Namdharis who ignored all the facts recorded; for example, passing away of Guru was recorded in Mughal records as per Dr. Ganda Singh, Dr Kirpal Singh known as historian. Mata Gujri lived alone till 1736 or so, How could Guru ji ignore her like this?, why would he zero every thing he established just to take revenge. Why Mughal records shows a token of honor was given to Mata ji. What is the base of this romur? Give me one fact, as you say, nothing was found in the tent, do you think, Mughal wpuld have believed like that? The reason I gave example of sant Bhindrawala and Elvis was to just give example how people enjoy romurs. aad ji has given you a few sites, you may find there Historical facts available. Disappearance of His body might be just a plan of people around him for some thing but it wouldnt be easy to believe for Mughal rulers and a lot of those who were after Guru ji with revengeful determination. It was just a romur as it was in case of the people I mentioned above and later on some took advantage of it like Namdharis. The personality of Guru ji doesnt fit in that rumor any way; I remember communist scholar sant Singh Sekhon started it first time then without having any Historical facts he bowed out. Please dont think my comments are addressing you personally and I say you are coming up with this fantansy personally because you already explained about it. Only you are doing here is finding more weight in that romur and I disredit it as a simple " cooked up stuff"
     
  17. Sinister

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    Sikh Chela ji

    you must understand,
    A faith is designed in a defensive manner to keep out objective analysis (as in any organized religion...emotion creeps in). Religion and Religious Philosophy shows no mercy to rationality, especially when rationality stands in opposition to long held construction of realities.

    that aside:
    I see no rationality in your arguments either... your theory lacks substance.
    (i think you feel that as well)

    I think this post is about something much more deeper than just equating Banda Singh Bahadur to Guru Gobind Singh.

    It's a reflection and outburst of a need; in adding a human face to an otherwise alien philosophy made by alien characters.

    I think your original intention was to bring out a human face to the guru's, which is never presented in the faith:
    did guru gobind singh have feelings of revenge, hatred, love, anxiety, fear?
    the religion is completely mute when it comes to expressing emotions...other than love...that is what this post is all about (I can see it, in the way Sikh Chela words his posts, which is remarkably similiar to mine)

    this frustration, i have seen in many people.

    And this is not a question that the history books can solve...individual analysis and interpretation is all that matters...how rational are you?...to what degree do you prescribe the guru's with a human character or a utopian character.

    of coarse, avid believers do believe that the Guru's were capable of doing absolutely nothing wrong...so clearly in the eyes of Sikhs...the Guru's were not humans (because all humans have faults)...for them The guru is an alien construct (something that must not be judged, because judging requires ego, but whose authority must be submitted to and accepted, as is).

    cheers
     
  18. pk70

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    How are you Sinister ji? Again we have disagreements to ponder over!
    you must understand,
    A faith is designed in a defensive manner to keep out objective analysis (as in any organized religion...emotion creeps in). Religion and Religious Philosophy shows no mercy to rationality, especially when rationality stands in opposition to long held construction of realities.( quote)
    I concur; however, rationality still exists if one breaks those barriers constructed by institutionalizing forces. Many of the time, Guru Nanak asks you to weigh things in rationality instead of following blindly. Do you need quotes, let me know.
    I think your original intention was to bring out a human face to the guru's, which is never presented in the faith:
    Sinister ji, may I ask you what do you mean by human face?
    did guru gobind singh have feelings of revenge, hatred, love, anxiety, fear?
    Those feelings can be deciphered through his actions during his dealing with those who totally apposed him; they were very obviously of an enlightened one. Many still couldn’t understand his decisions because of it.
    Instruction of Guru to Sikhs” let the attacker go if he runs away in the battle; where is the revenge, this is verified in the History. Ready to fight with only 40 people at hand against thousands, Guru himself wrote about this in Zaffarnama, where is the fear?
    the religion is completely mute when it comes to expressing emotions...other than love...
    Wrong, it speaks about fear, revenge literally while teaching love for Him, the difference is the window we look into before building love for Him; with love, righteousness is also promoted as well which gives new prospective to use those feelings you talk about..
    (I can see it, in the way Sikh Chela words his posts, which is remarkably similiar to mine)
    You have surprised me here; I have found your posts based on rationality only not on rumors, what I have missed? I just cannot believe your comparison of your posts with this one. If rationality is missed, it is not Snister ji’s pos,t that was my impression so far.
    of coarse, avid believers do believe that the Guru's were capable of doing absolutely nothing wrong...so clearly in the eyes of Sikhs...the Guru's were not humans (because all humans have faults)...for them The guru is an alien construct (something that must not be judged, because judging requires ego, but whose authority must be submitted to and accepted, as is).
    If you don’t practice what you preach, why my rationality should accept you as my teacher? Same thing goes with Sikhs Gurus; they practiced what they preached and paid for it dearly, otherwise if they wanted, they would have forged alliance with all oppositions as many today’s Dera Gurus do. Thanks for at least open and very honest views, a way above curtains of hypocrisy.
     
  19. Sinister

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    they did pay for it dearly...something I honestly cannot deny

    but the question that is still out there and conveniently left unanswered is:
    did they fight injustice because they were human or did they fight because they were 'enlightened-humans'?

    and what deserves more respect?
    a human) who can do what they did?
    or an enlightened soul who can do what they did?
    (like i told sikh80 ji, im not simply a rationalist, There is a side of Romanticism to me...as their is in everyone)

    did the guru’s exhibit humanly emotions: which include
    Joy, Acceptance, Fear, Surprise, Sadness, Disgust, Anger, Anticipation, Optimism, Submission, Awe, Disappointment, Remorse, Contempt, Jealousy, Aggressiveness, Love?

    Or were they above and beyond these emotions … if they were… then they were not humans…they were aliens…these emotions are what define humanity and human nature...every human has experienced these emotions at least once or more in their lifetime.

    The fact my friend is this: We have grown so accustomed to seeing hypocrisy, that it makes us comfortable...its something so familiar that it is not alien. (such is the state of our miserable existence)…we search for hypocrisy (to make ourselves comfortable)…all humans are hypocrites! (at one point or another in their lives) And the people who claim to detest hypocrisy are usually the biggest hypocrites of all...rationally; we all look up to hypocrisy whenever we look up to achieving idealism.

    reality can be a system for God, but it cannot be so for any human individual, because both reality and humans are incomplete, and all philosophical systems imply completeness. (Kierkegaard)

    when we aspire to live up to a philosophical system (idealism) we are behaving like hypocrites.

    I am not here to openly judge the guru’s … they did what they did, according to what they saw was right at the time…and boy did they do!

    That is where my respect lies (they took initiative..and that alone deserves some respect), The respect should not reside in the belief that they stopped boulders falling from mountaintops or fought injustice, battling under whelming odds.

    The respect should come from something much more inert...

    It should be about adding the human face to religion; the more we talk about certain emotions and ignore the others, we lose out.

    I think you get the gist of what I am saying. (i stop here

    cheers
     
  20. pk70

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    sinister ji, just last but not least !
    Try a revolution against an established inhuman practices, I shall see you how often you will be able to preach a religion and support a revolution at the same time; if you do, it will be very hard to accept you one of common humans. No wonder three centuries were not even enough. Avalanche of cover up by biased historians couldn't hide the truth, still so called followers breath the same punk smell Sikh Gurus asked not to do. I take it a measure of how big was the revolution at least !
    :)
     
  21. dalsingh

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    To the original poster. I have never heard anyone saying Banda Singh may have been Dasmesh Pita before.

    According to Moghul records they did share physical similarities but are people suggesting that Guru ji married again and the child slaughtered at Delhi was a sahibzada!

    Also as pointed out before, Rattan Singh Bhangu claims that Banda introduced changes (i.e. the Khalsa war cry from Jo Bole So Nihal...Sat Siri Akal to Fateh Darshan, the uniform colour from blue to red and miscellaneous dietary habits.) Why would Guru ji do this? Plus, according to this source there was some fracas between Bandai Sikhs and the Tat Khalsa. Remember many Sikhs who were close associates with Dasmesh Pita were still around under Banda Singh. If they were one and the same - we would know.
     

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