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Bad Translations And Interpretations-how Do They Affect Us?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Harry Haller, Jul 12, 2015.

  1. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    I have two videos to illustrate a point, first one, Harry Potter, complete with translations



    Secondly, The entire episode of red dwarf where Kryton the robot learns it is his last day, the relevant scene starts at around 6 minutes, hilarious

     
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  3. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    I knew I posted this somewhere!
     
  4. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    that's the beauty of Gurbani...it tells us that even an uneducated person can realize God...

    i would say, to 'love' one requires no degrees and intellect...love comes from a deeper place...

    so if you get the main gist of Gurbani...put whatever you can into practice....God Will feel the Love...God is the Love...if ones intentions are real and selfless...God does the rest...any mis-translations will eventually be revealed and slowly it will all make sense...

    just my humble opinion..

    god bless ji.
     
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  5. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    Can you enlighten me what is realizing of God and its link with uneducated?
     
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  6. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    in that case why don't we just read the Koran?
     
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  7. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    harry ji,

    in your own words you have stated you don;t read or have read much of Gurbani anyway...

    therefore please go ahead and read the Koran...there is truth amongst many of the worlds religions...so i'm sure some positivity will come from reading the bible, koran, SGGS Ji and anything else that inspires you to think about what this shizzle we called creation is all about in the big scheme of things :)

    i think it is important to try to understand Gurbani and get the correct translations or as close to them as possible...especially to set the sail in the correct direction...

    for example....gurbani states very clearly....Waheguru is within us...in the gurdwara we call the human body....so the sail can be set in this direction

    the Wind however we cannot control...it will control many aspects of our journey...and that wind is Waheguru and it'll start taking us in the right direction anyway...it is ok not to know everything or not being a scholar in Gurbani....the love and intention of the seeker is the most important...

    Just my humble opinion based on my own experiences thus far...i am indebted to the souls that have worked tirelessly to translate...even if they are not 100% correct, they pointed me in the right direction...and i can never thank them enough.

    god bless ji
     
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  8. Original

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    Hey Chaz

    If you can....in this life, learn gurmukhi and then taste the sweet, soft, mournful melodies of Gurbani - blow your mind ! Reading it out aloud in its native marinated flavour, in raag form, resonance sounds that you could pitch high n low, self-adjust frequencies to harmonise inner rhythm, is what I call - a-ha moments. Having it spun-off any tava [translation through agency] loses "original" flavour, in my view.

    Check out page 658 SGGSJ - this one is an all time fav "lovers rock" - to be sung on valentines day [14 Feb]. Guru Ravidas composed it thus: ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਗਿਰਿਵਰ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਮੋਰਾ ॥ Translation: If thou art beautiful mountain O' lord then I'm peacock. Look at the metaphor and the simile used to express relationship.
    LOVE
    Analogy used:
    Clouds clog-up near mountain and it rains, peacock senses this in advance and displays the divine shape of Omkara [sound of divine love] when it spreads its feathers and dances

    ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਚੰਦ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਚਕੋਰਾ
    II Translation: If thou art moon then I'm chokora [a bird said to be in love with the beauty of the moon and gaze constantly at it].

    Then Ravidas Ji goes on to say .....ਸਾਚੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਹਮ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰੀ ॥ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਿ ਅਵਰ ਸੰਗਿ ਤੋਰੀ
    Translation: thou art my true love with thee I'm attached; with thee attached I'm with the world detached.

    Mera pyara veer
    - just imagine for a mo if you were to soak it neat without dilution [translation] - would you be busy typing or skyping solo!

    Love n leave - till another time.
     
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  9. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    The question is, have understood what guru sahib is trying to say. While watching discovery channel, I noticed peacock has got nothing to do with cloud, rain or mountain. Peacock is not dancing happily because of the rain. It is false assumption. Peacock think because of cloud or rain spread his wing to attract female peacock. It means it is not sach preet but ahduri preet(false one sided) and is just taking advantage to attract morni - infatuation - an act female will be attracted. Peacock has no love with cloud but with female peacock. Similarly partridge has no link with moon. Partiridge think with the light of moon his chakori will come out.

    Similarly the reason I raised question to chazji was that, on one hand Guru sahib is stressing on 'khojat khojat ...searching and researching, karta purakh a creative and is it possible same Guru will discourage sikh to go for higher studies by saying whether you study or not, just utter waheguru. Can a doctor perform operation without understanding the technique. Similarly can we live truthful life by just uttering 'waheguru'. You go to any top brand raagi and see by yourself how egoistic is he. This pankti "Parhyiaa Unparhyia parm gatt pawei" [educated, uneducated; will be blessed] how conveniently has been used to distort the meaning of gurbani. Let us see in which context it has be written by contemplating on the central ideaor the pivtol point, the rahao, ' bin navai jhutha dhan maal' the guru sahib is referring to worldly wealth and assests' thus meaning of the pankti automatically becomes clear 'whether you make riches or not, it matters not so long as you 'LIVE TRUTHFUL life'.
     
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  10. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    Hey Original Ji

    hope you're well

    thankfully when i was younger my mum sent me to punjabi school even though i hated going and didn't pay much attention...but i managed to learn how to read in Punjabi...i'm not the fastest reader...but i love reading japji in the morning...sometimes i will contemplate certain verses...anything i don;t understand i go by the english translation....and then an ardaas asking waheguru to make it clearer to me...

    yes i agree...hearing the sounds of Gurbani as one reads it is quite something...and no translation does it justice...i didnt back then, but now i thank my mum a million times for making me go... :)
     
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  11. chazSingh

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    JapjiSahib,

    i understand what you are saying...and true translation and understanding the meaning of shabads is hugely important and helpful...

    but there was a time when i didn't understand much at all...i was a lost soul...and opening SGGS Ji was exciting but overwhelming at the same time...so much to read, so many ideas, thoughts, words, directions etc etc...where to start...how to seek...??

    but there were shabads that i could really understand straight away...shabads that for me at that stage in my life which rang a bell, which resonated with me...shabads of the Guru's ji's longing for waheguru, to seek His shelter, etc etc....i read them over and over and i thought this was my start...no one needs lessons in loving...no one needs lessons in longing...it is a feeling which radiates out from within...and it is this i could relate to..

    there was too much going on in my life to be able to sit and contemplate my Guru...so i started waking up in the early hours...and i found my perfect time to pour my heart out...to calm my stressed and overworked mind...it was my sanctuary...

    and my prayers were heard :)

    i have no issue with spending time on working out true meaning of shabads...it is because of the hard work of others that someone like me can come and just pick up the gems and decide what to do, where to begin.

    when i came across shabads like Guru Nanak Dev ji saying "if you want to see the abode of waheguru, wake up in the ambrosial hours and take your cleansing bath" (rough translation)...i didnt care to research into what the ambrosial hours were...i took it as the morning hours and just 'did it'

    when your heart is longing..reading a million opinions about a translation wasn't soothing my longing, it wasn;t quenching that thirst...i just did what i thought i understood at that time and 'Oh boy....did it work for me"

    God Bless...and keep up the good work...i enjoy reading your posts...a helpful resource..
     
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  12. Original

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    Dear Japjisahib Ji

    Thank you !

    Such a shame Guru Ravidas never got to watch discovery channel, for if he did, he may have made it a palatable dish on a table for 2 with lit candles. Perfect Valentine treat if you ask me, sits just right with the theme of the entire verse - true love.

    Know the word to predate writing - the word was communicated from father to son before writing came to be.

    I can't say I don't love you coz I do. You're the beautiful wise Heron who sits motionless on the edge of lake SPN, observing n sizing your next meal. As soon as, it appears on your radar, bosh comes the sting from that crouched position and dust n done till kingdom come is how it Ends.


    No my dear brother, we've humble beginnings, education, religion, arts n sciences were reserved for the rich n famous. We [Sikh] were the ordinary Jo Bloggs who believed pigs could fly and the my-buddi seated spinning the wheel on the moon and the rest were all true because we "believed" the stories and the story tellers, just like children do - beautiful human past. Our Banikars weren't aliens or super-humans who had enlarged brains to look into the "things in themselves", no, they were simple humanbeings who devoted much of their time in search of "truth". Our ancestors weren't fortuitously placed to embark on the runway cycle of biological and cultural development that led to modern and multitasking humans that we are today. No, we are evolving for better.

    Here's a classic example to show how ignorant humans can be. For nearly 2000 years, educated people in Europe believed that bloodletting [deliberately causing a sick person to lose blood] was the most effective treatment for a variety of illnesses. The "fact" [after watching discovery channel, ha] that bloodletting wasn't what it had been believed to be, didn't hit the headlines until 1800 - 1900's, and then some physicians argued against it and as a result it was stopped. The beauty in all this is Japjisahib, that knowledge grows from such differences of opinions. We move forward.

    To read poetry and understand its meaning n significance one must reconstruct the past in which the Banikar lived, that is, social, cultural, environmental together with the Banikars personal status, qualifications, inclinations and so on. Then and only then will you be able to make sense n enjoy. For example, a car run on 4 wheels, if one of the wheel is punctured you won't get the fit for purpose signal flagged up and destination a far cry. Similarly, the Banikars must be subjected to their physical, spiritual, mental and emotional dimensions to realise what they were, why they were, who they were and then digest their experiences, thought processes in light of their human potential. The divine hand operating in the background is our "belief" but how that divinity is perceived and consequently conceived is what constitutes our "faith".

    I love you n have a little chuckle every time you have a dig at the spiritualist camp.

    Goodnight n Godbless
     
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  13. Ishna

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    Original Ji, perhaps you could start a series here with information about reconstructing, as you said, "the past in which the Banikar lived, that is, social, cultural, environmental together with the Banikars personal status, qualifications, inclinations and so on."

    When I started learning about Gurbani I became disillusioned/out of energy a few times because Gurbani itself is hard enough to comprehend, but when you're not from the Punjabi or even Indian culture, and you don't have the history and mythology in your psyche from growing up hearing about it, it seems like you need to learn all about those old cultures first before even getting to the Gurbani before even getting to the practice of Sikhi and developing connection to Naam. Phew!

    So if you could share you knowledge with the forum I think it would be very helpful. :)

    At the same time I think an outsider can sometimes spot the message in Gurbani more easily since they don't have the same degree of cultural baggage as some other people may have.

    Gurfateh
     
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  14. chazSingh

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    japji sahib ji,

    whilst it is agreed that peacocks spread their wings to mate....and i'm sure Guru Ji already knew this, i don;t think that is why guru ji has used the example...

    so is guru ji trying to say?....'if god is the mountain then he is a horny peacock waiting to mate with another peacock?' :)

    obviously when a peacock is seen spreading its wings in the rain, onlookers describe it as a joyous moment, where the peacock opens its feathers and dances to the heavens that open up before him (rain)...as though the peacock is bathing in the rain, soaking it all up, the love, the joy :) ... the connection between the two..

    so just like original ji has stated, it's an example that guru ji has used to portray deep love...a theme, an imagery.

    this is where literal translation or over thinking of the truth seeker loses the imagery that has been created by Guru Ji...
    and as a result we are left with guru ji saying "if you are the mountain, then i'm the horny peaock ready to mate' :) which i guess has no positive meaning or influence for a sikh
     
  15. Original

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    Easy meditator - you said it in 2 what I couldn't say in 3. Too good !

    Love n Live where we come from !
     
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  16. Ishna

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    If the soul bride is trying desperately to get her Husband to bed to ravish her, maybe Guru Ji is talking about a horny peacock? LOL!!!

    But on a serious note, I agree with the poetic interpretation.
     
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  17. chazSingh

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    it could very well be ishna ji

    'when two become one'...Love, longing and joy being the central theme :)
     
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  18. Original

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    Hey meditator - now you're talking ! decided to come into the world where we play [lila] the game of love - break a few, mend a few hearts then move on to true home [spiritual].

    More later, lunchtime - maki di roti saroun da saag, home made yogurt - gate gourmet can't touch !

    Be good !
     
  19. japjisahib04

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    Off course Bhagatjee already knew. I think Originaljee misunderstood my take on this pankti. Please check the sequences of shabds in this row and central idea of this pankti, 'ਮਾਧਵੇ ਤੁਮ ਨ ਤੋਰਹੁ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਨਹੀ ਤੋਰਹਿ ॥ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਤੋਰਿ ਕਵਨ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ SGGS 658.17 Over here 'madhvai' is not God but is addressed to my manh. Oh my manh if you don't break me off from the attachment of superfluous activities then how will I connect with my innerselves. The context or topic is attachment when it say 'tum seo tor kavan seo joroy'. Thus while keeping the pankti in mind, 'ਸਾਚੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਹਮ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰੀ ॥ - the topic is bondage to superfluous activities. To further understand the essence of the sabd, let us check the sabd prior to this and we find, ' ਜਉ ਹਮ ਬਾਂਧੇ ਮੋਹ ਫਾਸ ਹਮ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਬਧਨਿ ਤੁਮ ਬਾਧੇ ॥. Moreover, meaning of 'ਗਿਰਿਵਰ ' as quoted is mountain whereas at other places it is cloud. In the sabd all the symbols of cloud or peacock for love used, are one sided fake love.
     
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    #18 japjisahib04, Jul 29, 2015
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  20. chazSingh

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    i don;t understand ji...maybe i'm being silly here...

    Guru ji says "if you are the mountain / cloud" .... "then i'm the peacock"

    in what way can that be describing a fake love?

    guru ji being in love with the lord already....to what purpose would he be saying that he has a 'one sided fake love' with the lord

    it doesn't make any sense ji...

    says ravidaas
    if you are the lamp then i'm the wick...
    if you are the moon then i'm the partridge in love with it...
    I am joined in true love with You, Lord.
    I am joined with You, and I have broken with all others


    if i was imbued with that much love for the lord...then i would also be the dancing peacock on the mountain when the heavens opened up and the rain poured down onto me! :)

    obviously that is only in the romantic imagery...the discovery channel would have already sussed me out and noticed i was really on the hunt for a sexy looking peahen...curse those documentary producers!!

     
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    #19 chazSingh, Jul 29, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2015
  21. Original

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    Easy Grasshopper ! Japjisahib is what we're not - royal poetry !
    Thanks be to god for he has you in a beautiful discussion - enjoy!
     

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