Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

Hinduism Avatars of Vishnu and the Satguru

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Harjas Kaur Khalsa, Aug 16, 2008.

  1. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2006
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    18
    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥
    guramukh naadhan guramukh vaedhan guramukh rehiaa samaaee ||
    The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.

    ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
    gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee ||
    The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.

    ਜੇ ਹਉ ਜਾਣਾ ਆਖਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਥਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
    jae ho jaanaa aakhaa naahee kehanaa kathhan n jaaee ||
    Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.
    ~Jap Ji Sahib, Shri Guru Granth Sahib p. 2


    I know I said I won't post but I can't resist to answer respected Pk70 ji. But I promise not to engage in debate. So answer freely or attack as you wish as I will likely not respond either way. Don't be too dogmatic and narrow in interpreting Jap Ji Sahib to fit your world-view. Open your eyes to read also it's hidden esoteric meanings. Nirguna isn't in some kind of jealousy conflict with sarguna for Supremacy or sole worship. Nirguna cannot possibly be a "jealous" or "exclusive" god.
    "One should not engage in theological disputes; there is room for many different viewpoints, and no single viewpoint is the final truth. One should reflect, instead, on the means to awaken devotion, and one should engage oneself in the practice of those means." ~Bhakti Sutras


    In the world of human guru's and chelas from other traditions, I have learned one thing which is wise. Sometimes a guru will give conflicting advice. Not because the guru is conflicted, but because diffferent chelas are on different levels of spiritual development. Gurbani tells us the God is BOTH nirguna AND sarguna. This is actually an answer to a centuries long debate between Advaita and Dvaita schools, whether you are familiar with the philosophical history of these debates between sampradyas. Gurbani's answer... God is both impersonal AND personal. The Divine energy flows without form and within form and within all creation. Just as there are uncountable levels of life form, so there are millions of different levels of spirituality from lowest to highest until final merging. BHAKTI is fundamentally a love affair with the Sarguna which transcends both the object and the subject, purifies the ego defilements and ascends beyond the human nature into merging with the Nirguna, which is the hidden fullness of the Beloved One. Hence it is the easiest way for the soul to attain enlightenment, because it is open to the flow of energy through the transformative power of Divine Love.
    ਨਿਰਗੁਣੁ ਸਰਗੁਣੁ ਆਪੇ ਸੋਈ ॥
    niragun saragun aapae soee ||
    The Lord Himself is Unmanifest and Unrelated; He is Manifest and Related as well.

    ਤਤੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਸੋ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਹੋਈ ॥
    thath pashhaanai so panddith hoee ||
    Those who recognize this essential reality are the true Pandits, the spiritual scholars.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 128


    The fact is, Buddhism is the philosophy of pure Advaita, and they have doctrinally rejected ALL manner of sarguna as being the ultimate, called Shunyata, or emptiness. We can harness the shakti, the energy, the anehad Shabad which vibrates out of the Primal Nada, like the Buddhists do. But we can't have personal relationship with formless energy.

    That is why formless Pure Unborn Shakti-Jyoti, union of energy and light is the ground of creative potential. But how can you worship the Nothingness? How can you fall in love with the impersonal Energy? It is true, the Nothingness moves in the empty spaces between thoughts, words and feelings and enlivens the life force of our very being. But even Buddhists have a Primal root Guru in Siddhartha Gautama the Buddha, as a face, as a spoken voice derived from the Purity of the energy, so that the energy itself can become manifest to the world.

    Nirguna is the Supreme reality. But not even Guru Nanak Dev Ji can describe it. Gurbani says the nirguna became the Guru, became the Shabad-Jyot of the Guru's Word. This is taking form, contrary to your assertion that we are advised to contemplate only that which cannot be contemplated per Gurbani. The fact that nirguna has become manifest in the sansaar as light and sound, as Guru and Guru's bani, or even as Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma, Parvati and Lakshmi is telling you that God has become those things which people's minds can perceive, in order that they might contemplate Him to the best of their ability.
    "Oh a man must be pervaded with the divine presence, and be shaped through and through with the form of the God he loves, and be present in Him, so that God's presence may shine out to him without any effort. What is more, in all things let him acquire nakedness [detachment], and let him always remain free of things." ~Meister Eckhart


    The Primal Absolute is so humble, he slithers within the lowly worm. The Primal Absolute is so humble, He was born in a manger, allowed Himself to be reviled, crucified in order to teach a message of Love free of Hate. The Primal Absolute is so humble, He was born as a great Prince who renounced His kingdom in order to free the world from suffering and teach the LIGHT of Buddhist insight meditation and has given the world so many countless buddhas and bodhisattvas. Don't you understand veer ji, the Light of the World is all the time coming down to shine in darkness? The Primal Absolute is so humble, He was born as a true king in a kingdom under seige, and He sacrificed His father, His mother, and all His sons to save a nation from injustice, and to LIGHT a spark of liberation to elevate the oppressed to the heighths of Divine Dignity.

    Don't you understand veer ji, that no ordinary human can do these things? The True Light isn't shining in only one corner of the world for one race or religion. It is UNIVERSAL LIGHT of the One universal soul, Paramatman, Parameshvara. There is only One truth spoken in many dialects, and that is the universal truth of sanatana Dharma. The Divine Beloved is in all these forms, all these expressions, all these Naams. Why should we act like we're allergic to them? Why should we act like burned with fire to see some humble painting of devta which has so much meaning for so many millions of humble people, and miss the true symbolic beauty hiding there, of a God of PRESENCE for the suffering who conceive Him in every possible way? Who could despise the CLOSENESS implied by a picture of the Virgin Mary or a bhajan sung to the Devi Mata?
    "The man who has 'God essentially present to him grasps God divinely, and to him God shines in all things; for everything tastes to him of God, and God forms Himself for the man out of all things." ~Meister Eckhart


    "Sentient beings wish to return to their origin where their nature will be in perfect unity." ~Surangama Sutra



    Don't be so dogmatic to presume to know what Guruji is teaching every individual heart. Spirituality isn't a cookie cutter, one-size-fits-all organizational intolerance of anyone who thinks/learns/understands differently. Gurbani is spiritually alive, and therefore has multidimensional and multiple meanings while never in contradiction. It speaks to EVERY heart. I find the people who think they have the "one true way" usually are the most hard, and the most lost. The Truth is One. But the ways to reaching truth are multiple.
    "In the same way, no one can hinder this man, for he intends and seeks and takes delight in nothing but God, for God has become one with the man in all his intention. And so, just as no multiplicity can disturb God, nothing can disturb or fragment this man, for he is one in that One where all multiplicity is one and is one multiplicity." ~Meister Eckhart


    "The distinction between the persons does not impair the oneness of nature, nor does the shared unity of essence lead to a confusion between the distinctive characteristics of the persons. Do not be surprised that we should speak of the Godhead as being at the same time both unified and differentiated. Using riddles, as it were, we envisage a strange and paradoxical diversity-in-unity and unity-in-diversity." ~St Gregory of Nyssa



    ਏਕੁ ਤੂ ਹੋਰਿ ਵੇਸ ਬਹੁਤੇਰੇ ॥
    eaek thoo hor vaes bahuthaerae ||
    You, O Lord, are the One, but You have so many Forms.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 356



    ਤੇਰੇ ਨਾਮ ਅਨੇਕਾ ਰੂਪ ਅਨੰਤਾ ਕਹਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਹੀ ਤੇਰੇ ਗੁਣ ਕੇਤੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    thaerae naam anaekaa roop ananthaa kehan n jaahee thaerae gun kaethae ||1|| rehaao ||
    Your Names are so many, and Your Forms are endless. No one can tell how many Glorious Virtues You have. ||1||Pause||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 358



    Who do we think we are, to despise forms of God? Who are we to call obscene when our own body mirrors these same sense organs depicted in the devtas, along with the same kaam, the same krodh, the same karam, and the same originating creative shakti which when liberated becomes DARSHAN OF THE DIVINE BELOVED who we belong to as soul brides? Don't you see all of this is a Divine story, a lesson in how the soul, through the heroic demi-gods gets lost in ego, and transcends ego? These stories flow, because they are mirrors of ourselves. How we get lost, and by what means we are found in the true home of our Essential Nature, Self-Realization. We are all kings, and we are all beggars. We are all devas and we are all asuras. But only when we become the ONE will we ever be FREE. This powerful Shavaite spirituality is also known in the Christian West as "Spousal Prayer." It is the journey of the soul away from the infidelity of false loves, false affairs, deluding lovers to the heart of RAW TRUTH, intimacy with God Himself as Kundalini Shakti, the energy which flows into the crowned knot of fire at the top of our heads, and away from the pubicoccygeal chakra which is energized by the sensuality of the Maya Earth. To approach God sublimating and vigorously denying sexuality is to deny the truth of how the human being is created. Even to enjoy the rhythm of the tabla...is a form of sensuality. And even samadhi and kundalini shakti are the purified sexual potency of the body itself, ascended to mind and atma, and then to Paramatma. And if this yoga were worthless teaching, Guruji would not have included the bhagat bani of Kabir ji into Gurgaddhi.
    "All men are made in God's image; but to be in His likeness is granted only to those who through great love have brought their own freedom into subjection to God. For only when we do not belong to ourselves do we become like Him who through love has reconciled us to Himself. No one achieves this unless he persuades his soul not to be distracted by the false glitter of this life." ~Philokalia


    "Wherever there are two, there is fear, there is danger, there is conflict, there is strife. When it is all One, who is there to hate, who is there to struggle with? When it is all He, with whom can you fight? This explains the true nature of life; this explains the true nature of being. This is perfection, and this is God. As long as you see the many, you are under delusion." ~Swami Vivekananda


    The truth is, the sarguna is as much the God as the nirguna. Difference is, we can PERCEIVE it. Just imagine going to Gurdwara and trying to bow to the nirguna. In what direction? Why in Gurdwara only? There would be no Babaji, no Palki, no Shabad Gurbani, no Kirtan, no Naam to jap. Nirguna is quite beyond our vain imaginings. We don't despise the humbleness of the sarguna of the inked pages on which is printed words which our brains interpret as Gurbani so vulnerable to tearing, aging, and physical abuse of the angs of Guru.

    But can't you see, without this sarguna of pages and words and concepts, and even Naams to jap we could not come close to approach that which is without thoughts, without name, without language. The nirguna is beyond the comprehension of the human brain. It is unapproachable without form. This is why IT (because beyond even descriptives of He or She), takes on form. The nirguna assumes form in order to REACH us, and not only you, but other people, with different understanding. He comes to us according to our capacity and need. He is just as real in form of Jagannath or Rudra as in form of Gurudev. Only the sarguna can ACT in the world in a visible way to change the minds and hearts of men by EXAMPLE! The nirguna is not even perceived.
    "God and the Godhead are as different from each other as heaven and earth... If-creatures speak of God -- but why do they not mention the Godhead? Because there is only unity in the Godhead and there is nothing to talk about. God acts. The Godhead does not. ... The difference between God and the Godhead is the difference between action and non-action." ~Meister Eckhart


    This is the real meaning of only One God, because all forms are only Him. Don't despise the ways in which your brother worships. The Love exists within all praise. Just dance with that Love in your heart veer ji. Because that Love is dancing in all hearts, in all ways, in all paths, in all approaches, in all understandings. Not one word could ever speak or touch or be pure enough to touch nirguna. But in our littleness, the Divine has become little in order that we might speak His praise with ALL our voices. If creation teaches you anything, it is multiplicity and incredible individuality. How can anyone put a limit on God and say HE cannot be born or take form? Gurbani utters both as Truth. He is Unborn and without form. He is many countless avataras and many uncountable forms.
    ਸਹਸ ਤਵ ਨੈਨ ਨਨ ਨੈਨ ਹਹਿ ਤੋਹਿ ਕਉ ਸਹਸ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਨਨਾ ਏਕ ਤ+ਹੀ ॥
    sehas thav nain nan nain hehi thohi ko sehas moorath nanaa eaek thuohee
    You have thousands of eyes, and yet You have no eyes. You have thousands of forms, and yet You do not have even one.

    ਸਹਸ ਪਦ ਬਿਮਲ ਨਨ ਏਕ ਪਦ ਗੰਧ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਹਸ ਤਵ ਗੰਧ ਇਵ ਚਲਤ ਮੋਹੀ ॥੨॥
    sehas padh bimal nan eaek padh gandhh bin sehas thav gandhh eiv chalath mohee ||2||
    You have thousands of Lotus Feet, and yet You do not have even one foot. You have no nose, but you have thousands of noses. This Play of Yours entrances me. ||2||

    ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਹੈ ਸੋਇ ॥
    sabh mehi joth joth hai soe ||
    Amongst all is the Light-You are that Light.

    ਤਿਸ ਦੈ ਚਾਨਣਿ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
    this dhai chaanan sabh mehi chaanan hoe ||
    By this Illumination, that Light is radiant within all.

    ਗੁਰ ਸਾਖੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
    gur saakhee joth paragatt hoe ||
    Through the Guru's Teachings, the Light shines forth.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 13




    "The more I am able to affirm others, to say 'yes' to them in myself,
    by discovering them in myself and myself in them, the more real I am.
    I am fully real if my own heart says yes to everyone...If I affirm myself
    as a Catholic merely by denying all that is Muslim, Jewish, Protestant,
    Hindu, Buddhist, etc.,
    in the end I will find that there is not much left for me as a Catholic:
    and certainly no breath of the Spirit with which to affirm it." ~Fr. Thomas Merton



    ਤਾ ਕੇ ਰੂਪ ਨ ਜਾਹੀ ਲਖਣੇ ਕਿਆ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ॥੨॥
    thaa kae roop n jaahee lakhanae kiaa kar aakh veechaaree ||2||
    His beauteous forms cannot be comprehended; what can anyone accomplish by discussing and debating? ||2||

    ਤੀਨਿ ਗੁਣਾ ਤੇਰੇ ਜੁਗ ਹੀ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਚਾਰੇ ਤੇਰੀਆ ਖਾਣੀ ॥
    theen gunaa thaerae jug hee anthar chaarae thaereeaa khaanee ||
    Throughout the ages, You are the three qualities, and the four sources of creation.

    ਕਰਮੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਤਾ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਕਥੇ ਅਕਥ ਕਹਾਣੀ ॥੩॥
    karam hovai thaa param padh paaeeai kathhae akathh kehaanee ||3||
    If You show Your Mercy, then one obtains the supreme status, and speaks the Unspoken Speech. ||3||

    ਤੂੰ ਕਰਤਾ ਕੀਆ ਸਭੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਕਿਆ ਕੋ ਕਰੇ ਪਰਾਣੀ ॥
    thoon karathaa keeaa sabh thaeraa kiaa ko karae paraanee ||
    You are the Creator; all are created by You. What can any mortal being do?

    ਜਾ ਕਉ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਤੂੰ ਅਪਣੀ ਸਾਈ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਣੀ ॥੪॥
    jaa ko nadhar karehi thoon apanee saaee sach samaanee ||4||
    He alone, upon whom You shower Your Grace, is absorbed into the Truth. ||4||

    ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਈ ਲੇਤੁ ਹੈ ਜੇਤੀ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣੀ ॥
    naam thaeraa sabh koee laeth hai jaethee aavan jaanee ||
    Everyone who comes and goes chants Your Name.

    ਜਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬੂਝੈ ਹੋਰ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਫਿਰੈ ਇਆਣੀ ॥੫॥
    jaa thudhh bhaavai thaa guramukh boojhai hor manamukh firai eiaanee ||5||
    When it is pleasing to Your Will, then the Gurmukh understands. Otherwise, the self-willed manmukhs wander in ignorance. ||5||

    ਚਾਰੇ ਵੇਦ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਕਉ ਦੀਏ ਪੜਿ ਪੜਿ ਕਰੇ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ॥
    chaarae vaedh brehamae ko dheeeae parr parr karae veechaaree ||
    You gave the four Vedas to Brahma, for him to read and read continually, and reflect upon.

    ਤਾ ਕਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਬੂਝੈ ਬਪੁੜਾ ਨਰਕਿ ਸੁਰਗਿ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ॥੬॥
    thaa kaa hukam n boojhai bapurraa narak surag avathaaree ||6||
    The wretched one does not understand His Command, and is reincarnated into heaven and hell. ||6||

    ਜੁਗਹ ਜੁਗਹ ਕੇ ਰਾਜੇ ਕੀਏ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਕਰਿ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ॥
    jugeh jugeh kae raajae keeeae gaavehi kar avathaaree ||
    In each and every age, He creates the kings, who are sung of as His Incarnations.

    ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ॥੭॥
    thin bhee anth n paaeiaa thaa kaa kiaa kar aakh veechaaree ||7||
    Even they have not found His limits; what can I speak of and contemplate? ||7||

    ਤੂੰ ਸਚਾ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੀਆ ਸਭੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਦੇਹਿ ਤ ਸਾਚੁ ਵਖਾਣੀ ॥
    thoon sachaa thaeraa keeaa sabh saachaa dhaehi th saach vakhaanee ||
    You are True, and all that You do is True. If You bless me with the Truth, I will speak on it.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 423


    I promise to go away now and only bother you all on occasion :p And thank you for sharing the wonderful katha.


    "...in my opinion we all would do well not to be one of those people Yogananda referred to
    who can only love their own chosen ideal by hating everyone else's." ~Rick Archer



    ~bhul chak maaf karni ji

    This thread was started by forum moderation on August 21, 2008. This date occurs after the date and time of the first post in this thread. All comments moved from other threads to this thread are organized in chronological order according to the day and time of their posting. Therefore, Post 1 has a date and time that precedes the start date of the thread. Thank you
    .
     
    #1 Harjas Kaur Khalsa, Aug 16, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2008
  2. Loading...

    Similar Threads Forum Date
    Why Do We Hide Our Beautiful Faces Behind ID's and Avatars? Inspirational Stories Mar 17, 2009
    Sikh News Is Baba Nanak an Avatar of Lord Vishnu in any context? Breaking News Jan 27, 2007
    Sikh News Thursday April 21, 8:08 AM By Vishnu Makhijani, Indo-Asian News Service (Yahoo! India News) Breaking News Apr 21, 2005

  3. pk70

    pk70
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2008
    Messages:
    1,582
    Likes Received:
    627
    Re: Q&A with Sant Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal

    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ
    guramukh naadhan guramukh vaedhan guramukh rehiaa samaaee ||
    The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.

    ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ
    gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee ||
    The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.

    ਜੇ ਹਉ ਜਾਣਾ ਆਖਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਥਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ
    jae ho jaanaa aakhaa naahee kehanaa kathhan n jaaee ||
    Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.
    ~Jap Ji Sahib, Shri Guru Granth Sahib p. 2


    I know I said I won't post but I can't resist to answer respected Pk70 ji. But I promise not to engage in debate. So answer freely or attack as you wish as I will likely not respond either way. Don't be too dogmatic and narrow in interpreting Jap Ji Sahib to fit your world-view. Open your eyes to read also it's hidden esoteric meanings. Nirguna isn't in some kind of jealousy conflict with sarguna for Supremacy or sole worship. Nirguna cannot possibly be a "jealous" or "exclusive" god. (quote Harjas Kaur khalsa ji)

    I didn’t hint about jealousy or showed it as you assume all the time Bhain ji, I said what it has been advocated through out Sree Guru Granth Sahib ji. Not a single word is there that promotes Sargun Sroop to be worshiped save for an attempt to express the Creator in its both Sroop. There is no hidden, metaphoric language and, it doesn’t create esoteric illusions as some stuck into it. All the quotes given above sum up into an advice not to get frustrated at other doors but to stick to True Guru. The meaning is well described In SGGS JI,who can be the Guru -who can show HIM with in( by the words of Guru Nanak Sahib)
    "One should not engage in theological disputes; there is room for many different viewpoints, and no single viewpoint is the final truth. One should reflect, instead, on the means to awaken devotion, and one should engage oneself in the practice of those means." ~Bhakti Sutras
    What does this Sutra say? Shouldn’t it apply on your own views too in context of others? HMMMM

    In the world of human guru's and chelas from other traditions, I have learned one thing which is wise. Sometimes a guru will give conflicting advice. Not because the guru is conflicted, but because diffferent chelas are on different levels of spiritual development. Gurbani tells us the God is BOTH nirguna AND sarguna. This is actually an answer to a centuries long debate between Advaita and Dvaita schools, whether you are familiar with the philosophical history of these debates between sampradyas. Gurbani's answer... God is both impersonal AND personal. The Divine energy flows without form and within form and within all creation. Just as there are uncountable levels of life form, so there are millions of different levels of spirituality from lowest to highest until final merging. BHAKTI is fundamentally a love affair with the Sarguna which transcends both the object and the subject, purifies the ego defilements and ascends beyond the human nature into merging with the Nirguna, which is the hidden fullness of the Beloved One. Hence it is the easiest way for the soul to attain enlightenment, because it is open to the flow of energy through the transformative power of Divine Love.
    Dead wrong, Sarguna Sroop is also known as Maya, repeatedly Gurbani asks the followers not to pay attention to it, understand only that He is in there too but don’t fall for it, only the Nirguna is pined for. All Vedanta and sects you talk about generally go in circles, their week mind ignore the truth already said in there ( as Guru ji hinted at)but they keep coming to Sargun Sroop, A hero concept fails outright to understand HIS show and entity. Mixing up things does not create a pure and intact attention. All the quotes you give from Gurbani, as millions time I wrote, do not prove that your views are advocated in them. If any one starts studying Guru Granth Sahib ji, will find that dominating idea is NIRGUN Sroop, a few references towards Sargun sroop cannot be accepted as dominating idea as other one is there page after page.
    ਨਿਰਗੁਣੁ ਸਰਗੁਣੁ ਆਪੇ ਸੋਈ
    niragun saragun aapae soee ||
    The Lord Himself is Unmanifest and Unrelated; He is Manifest and Related as well.

    ਤਤੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਸੋ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਹੋਈ
    thath pashhaanai so panddith hoee ||
    Those who recognize this essential reality are the true Pandits, the spiritual scholars.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 128

    Of course, here Gurbani doesn’t select a few special ones as you advocate all the time falsely, it is about all His creation. He also created Maya, what is then Maya? It is a part of His Sargun Sroop. No one can achieve the COMPLETE if stuck to a part of HIM, that is the fact.
    CONTINUED
     
  4. pk70

    pk70
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2008
    Messages:
    1,582
    Likes Received:
    627
    Re: Q&A with Sant Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal

    The fact is, Buddhism is the philosophy of pure Advaita, and they have doctrinally rejected ALL manner of sarguna as being the ultimate, called Shunyata, or emptiness. We can harness the shakti, the energy, the anehad Shabad which vibrates out of the Primal Nada, like the Buddhists do. But we can't have personal relationship with formless energy.
    That is their failure, Guru ji developed personal relationship and inspires others to do so, one part of HIM should not stop us to reach to His Nirguna Sroop.
    Don't you understand veer ji, that no ordinary human can do these things? The True Light isn't shining in only one corner of the world for one race or religion. It is UNIVERSAL LIGHT of the One universal soul, Paramatman, Parameshvara. There is only One truth spoken in many dialects, and that is the universal truth of sanatana Dharma. The Divine Beloved is in all these forms, all these expressions, all these Naams.
    I have been on this site for six months, I haven’t said that what you have been saying repeatedly and many of the members haven't claim that His light shines only in one corner or in one race/religion etc; why always you assume and declare it as a reality? Something is obviously wrong. There is no universal snastana dharma a fact if it is looked at diligently. They say
    *Puja/Worship~ The fact that everyone will at some point seek/pray to some form or aspect of spiritual reality.
    *Vedas~ The original scripture of Sanatan Dharma/Hinduism. (Hindus look to many scriptures for guidance and inspiration.)


    Now read what Krishna says in Bhagwat Geeta
    65. Occupy thy mind with Me, be devoted to Me, sacrifice to Me, bow down to Me. Thou shalt reach Myself; truly do I promise unto thee, (for) thou art dear to Me. 65
    4. Bhumi (earth), Ap (water), Anala (fire), Vâyu (air), Kha (ether), mind, intellect, and egoism: thus is My Prakriti divided eight-fold. 4
    p. 166
    5. This is the lower (Prakriti). But different from it, know thou, O mighty-armed, My higher Prakriti—the principle of self-consciousness, by which this universe is sustained.
    6. Know that these (two Prakritis) are the womb of all beings. I am the origin and dissolution of the whole universe. 6( Bhagwat Geeta)
    You see what he is saying, totally he is engrossed with his self, if you compare Guru ji’s words in the same concept, not a once this kind of self show is seen. As he was spiritual sargun form, so wasGuru ji, then why so much difference? Though Guru says who are enlightened become just like HIM but humbleness remains to the extent. Sargun Sroop is a part of HIM and a part cannot claim “totality” as Krishna does. It cannot be called universal at all, it is in one box sits in a limited space. Their claim doesnt make it a reality. Guru ji leads the followers to His infinity, shows how He permeates in all, but never ever a claims to be HIM being a part of HIM
    Regarding all your quotes, it is waste of time to discuss it further as you ignored many Guru bachan in past, the only thing you do not ignore words from Sutras etc. So I stand by my point that Gurbani enables us to understand His Sargun and Nirgun Sroop but takes us to His Nirgun Sroop, no wonder Mool Mantra is repeated through out Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji!

    Who do we think we are, to despise forms of God?
    A woman leaves all the rest just for her lover/husband, same way a follower of Guru just leaves the rest regardless the claims they have; you call it “ despise” any thing you want to, for instance, I see none but Guru Nanak a guiding source to me, if you try hard to listen others, I wont, I am not into getting degrees, or to impress others by telling now I have read others and they say the same thing what Guru says as see the originality of Guru ji displayed through out SGGS Ji.. My journey started from Guru Nanak, ended right there. If rest are better than him, I just don’t care, my love for him overwhelming me.
    Gurbani, no Kirtan, no Naam to jap. Nirguna is quite beyond our vain imaginings
    We go to Gurdawara to learn from Guru ji not to perform any ritual or to bow to Nirguna. This is the way I am taught by Guru, if others go for what you say, what can I do

    This is the real meaning of only One God, because all forms are only Him. Don't despise the ways in which your brother worships. The Love exists within all prais
    Again bhain ji, you have started accusing me of what I don’t do. Million times I wrote my friends worship stones, I respect what they do, why do you look at me like a “hater”?
    ...in my opinion we all would do well not to be one of those people Yogananda referred to
    who can only love their own chosen ideal by hating everyone else's." ~Rick Archer


    You have attached the word HATE to me in spite of my cries against it, deep down, this is your understanding about me, it hurted me first, but not any more because now I understand you are using it as a weapon against those who has nothing to do what Yogannda refers to and reject every thing but Gurbani in pursuit of spiritual progression. My request is that do not through your lame judgment on me without understanding, you are failed to understand what I have been crying for a long time, we( Sikhs who strictly have faith in Gurbani, nothing else) do not need Vedas, we do not need Krishna or Ram, let us move on with the guidance Guru ji gives us, we do not have hate for any one though we have no value for others ideology in context of personal progression but it doesn’t mean we despise that/those..
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. pk70

    pk70
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2008
    Messages:
    1,582
    Likes Received:
    627
    Re: Q&A with Sant Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal

    I would like to hear from some one who can quote a single Vaak from Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji that says that the people who have low intellect or consciousness, should start from Sargun Sroop and who have better should contemplate directly on The Infinite Lord. Here is a direct Hukam of our Satguru, should we ignore it or obey it. Let the world go what way it wants to go, I shall rather follow Guru ji
    ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਜੋ ਸਿਖੁ ਅਖਾਏ ਸੁ ਭਲਕੇ ਉਠਿ ਹਰਿਨਾਮੁਧਿਆਵੈ
    Gur saṯgur kā jo sikẖ akẖā*ė so bẖalkė uṯẖ har nām ḏẖi*āvai.
    One who calls himself a Sikh of the Guru, the True Guru, shall rise in the early morning hours and meditate on the Lord's Name.
    ਉਦਮੁ ਕਰੇ ਭਲਕੇ ਪਰਭਾਤੀ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ਕਰੇ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਸਰਿਨਾਵੈ
    Uḏam karė bẖalkė parbẖāṯī isnān karė amriṯ sar nāvai.
    Upon arising early in the morning, he is to bathe, and cleanse himself in the pool of nectar. ( OF NAME)
    ਉਪਦੇਸਿਗੁਰੂਹਰਿਹਰਿਜਪੁਜਾਪੈਸਭਿ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਪਾਪ ਦੋਖ ਲਹਿ ਜਾਵੈ
    Upḏės gurū har har jap jāpai sabẖ kilvikẖ pāp ḏokẖ leh jāvai.
    Following the Instructions of the Guru, he is to chant the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. All sins, misdeeds and negativity shall be erased.
    ਫਿਰਿ ਚੜੈ ਦਿਵਸੁ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀਗਾਵੈਬਹਦਿਆ ਉਠਦਿਆ ਹਰਿਨਾਮੁਧਿਆਵੈ
    Fir cẖaṛai ḏivas gurbāṇī gāvai bahḏi*ā uṯẖ*ḏi*ā har nām ḏẖi*āvai.
    Then, at the rising of the sun, he is to sing Gurbani; whether sitting down or standing up, he is to meditate on the Lord's Name.
    ਜੋ ਸਾਸਿ ਗਿਰਾਸਿ ਧਿਆਏਮੇਰਾਹਰਿਹਰਿਸੋਗੁਰਸਿਖੁਗੁਰੂਮਨਿਭਾਵੈ
    Jo sās girās ḏẖi*ā*ė mėrā har har so gursikẖ gurū man bẖāvai.
    One who meditates on my Lord, Har, Har, with every breath and every morsel of food - that GurSikh becomes pleasing to the Guru's Mind.(SGGS 305)
    Now a few examples( there are thousands like this) from SGGS ji where it is stressed that through Guru contemplate only on His Name. All other efforts seem illusions( people love to enjoy as a reality) if one heeds attention to Guru Bachan given above
    ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂਮਿਲਾਏ
    Kirpā kar saṯgurū milā*ė.
    Granting His Grace, He leads us to meet the True Guru. ( AKAAL PURAKH Causes to meet Guru with Grace)
    ਏਕੋਨਾਮੁਚੇਤੇਵਿਚਹੁਭਰਮੁਚੁਕਾਏ
    Ėko nām cẖėṯė vicẖahu bẖaram cẖukā*ė.
    Remembering the One Name, doubt is cast
    Remembering the One Name, doubt is cast out from within.
    ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁਜਪੇਨਾਉ ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਪਾਏ ੧੧੩੧
    Nānak nām japė nā*o na*o niḏẖ pā*ė. ||4||11||31||
    O Nanak, chanting the Naam, the Name of the Lord, the nine treasures of the Name are obtained. ||4||11||31|| SGGS 161)
    ਭਜੁ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਏਕੋਨਾਮ
    Bẖaj man mėrė ėko nām.
    Meditate, O my mind, on the One Name.
    ਜੀਅ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੈ ਆਵੈਕਾਮ ਰਹਾਉ
    Jī*a ṯėrė kai āvai kām. ||1|| rahā*o.
    It alone shall be of use to your soul. ||1||Pause||(SGGS 193)
    ਗੁਰਤੇਨਾਮੁਪਾਈਐਵਡੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ
    Gur ṯė nām pā*ī*ai vadī vadi*ā*ī. ||1||
    The Naam, the Name of the Lord, is obtained from the Guru; it is the greatest greatness. ||1||
    ਏਕੋਨਾਮੁਚੇਤਿਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈ
    Ėko nām cẖėṯ mėrė bẖā*ī.
    Keep the One Name in your consciousness, O my Siblings of Destiny(SGGS424)
    ਜਪਿਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਤੂ ਏਕੋਨਾਮੁ
    Jap man mėrė ṯū ėko nām.
    O my mind, chant the One Name.

    ਸਤਗੁਰਿਦੀਆਮੋਕਉਏਹੁਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਰਹਾਉ
    Saṯgur ḏī*ā mo ka*o ėhu niḏẖān. ||1|| rahā*o.
    The True Guru has given me this treasure. ||1||Pause||(SGGS 558)
    ਆਪਨ ਕੀਆ ਕਛੂ ਹੋਵੈ ਕਿਆ ਕੋ ਕਰੈ ਪਰਾਨੀ
    Āpan kī*ā kacẖẖū na hovai ki*ā ko karai parānī.
    By one's own efforts, nothing is done. What can the mere mortal accomplish?
    ਜਾ ਤਿਸੁਭਾਵੈਸਤਿਗੁਰੁਭੇਟੈਏਕੋਨਾਮੁਬਖਾਨੀ
    Jā ṯis bẖāvai saṯgur bẖėtai ėko nām bakẖānī. ||3||
    When it pleases the Lord, the mortal meets the True Guru, and chants the Name of the One Lord. ||3|| SGGS 1124)
    ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣੁ ਨਹੀ ਮਨੁ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਪੂਰੇਗੁਰਕੀਓਟਗਹੀ
    Āvaṇ jāṇ nahī man nihcẖal pūrė gur kī ot gahī.
    Her mind is steady and stable; she does not come and go in reincarnation.
    ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਮਨਾਮੁਜਪਿਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਧਨੁ ਸੋਹਾਗਣਿ ਸਚੁਸਹੀ
    Nānak rām nām jap gurmukẖ ḏẖan sohagaṇ sacẖ sahī. ||4||2||
    She takes the Shelter of the Perfect Guru. O Nanak, as Gurmukh, chant the Naam; you shall be accepted as the true soul-bride of the Lord. ||4||2|| SGGS 1254)
    ਕਰਿਕਿਰਪਾਗੁਰਮੁਖਿਲਗੈਪਿਆਰੁ
    Kar kirpā gurmukẖ lagai pi*ār.
    The Gurmukh falls in love with the Lord, by His Grace.
    ਅੰਤਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਹਰਿਹਰਿਉਰਿਧਾਰੁ
    Anṯar bẖagaṯ har har ur ḏẖār.
    He enshrines loving devotion to the Lord, Har, Har, deep within his heart.
    ਸੋਈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਹੋਇ
    So*ī mukaṯ jā ka*o kirpā ho*ė.
    He alone is liberated, whom the Lord blesses with His Grace.
    ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਹਰਿਗੁਣਗਾਵੈਸੋਇ
    An*ḏin har guṇ gāvai so*ė.
    Night and day, he sings the Glorious Praises of the Lord.

    ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਕੀ ਫਿਰਿਕੂਕਹੋਇ੧੦
    Sāsṯar bėḏ kī fir kūk na ho*ė. ||5||1||10||
    Then, he no longer bothers with the proclamations of the Shaastras or the Vedas. ||5||1||10|| (SGGS 1261)
    AND in Gouri Kabir Ji
    ਓਅੰਕਾਰਆਦਿਮੈਜਾਨਾਲਿਖਿਅਰੁਮੇਟੈਤਾਹਿਮਾਨਾਓਅੰਕਾਰਲਖੈਜਉਕੋਈਸੋਈਲਖਿਮੇਟਣਾਹੋਈ
    I know only the One Lord, who is the source of everything. I believe not in him, whom the Lord writes (creates) and erases (destroys). If someone sees the one Lord, he perishes not by beholding Him.


     
  6. pk70

    pk70
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2008
    Messages:
    1,582
    Likes Received:
    627
    AND in Gouri Kabir Ji, see how Sargun Sroop is not accepted to be worshiped, including enlightened ones because they also fall in His Sargun Sroop
    ਓਅੰਕਾਰਆਦਿਮੈਜਾਨਾਲਿਖਿਅਰੁਮੇਟੈਤਾਹਿਮਾਨਾਓਅੰਕਾਰਲਖੈਜਉਕੋਈਸੋਈਲਖਿਮੇਟਣਾਹੋਈ
    I know only the One Lord, who is the source of everything. I believe not in him, whom the Lord writes (creates) and erases (destroys). If someone sees the one Lord, he perishes not by beholding Him.
    ਚਚਾ ਰਚਿਤ ਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਹੈ ਭਾਰੀ ਤਜਿ ਚਿਤ੍ਰੈ ਚੇਤਹੁ ਚਿਤਕਾਰੀ ਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਇਹੈ ਅਵਝੇਰਾ ਤਜਿ ਚਿਤ੍ਰੈ ਚਿਤੁ ਰਾਖਿ ਚਿਤੇਰਾ ੧੨
    Ch - The master has painted the great picture of the world. Leave the painting and remember the painter. This wonderous painting is now, the bone of contention. Dismiss picture and keep thy mind on the Painter.



    All HIS Sargun Sroop is transient; Kabir Ji refuses to worship it. HE creates Sargun Sroop, destroys too. Who does this all, HIM, that is the reason Guru ji stresses all over in SGGS Jito contemplate on HIS NAAM

    NOW my QUESTION, as you wrote Worship of God in sargun or nirgun is allowed”
    Provide any Guru Vaak to support it please. Tenth Master says” such people will go to hell who calls him God” in what way he supports what you have written?
     
  7. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2006
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    18
    Re: Q&A with Sant Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal

    Sargun saroop is in sansaara, and thus subject to the pakriti of three gunas out of which sansaaric world is made. Because sargun saroop is existing in the realm of illusions and appearances, it is subject to Maya and duality as fully human form. The form is... not the consciousness which remains in state of being merged with the nirguna. So the human body of an avataar can sicken, suffer and die. But the God-consciousness of such a realized being is not shaken by the demise of physicality, or the drama of karma in sansaara.


    ਮਿਲਿਆ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਵਿਛੁੜੈ ਜੋ ਮੇਲਿਆ ਕਰਤਾਰਿ ॥
    miliaa kadhae n vishhurrai jo maeliaa karathaar ||
    One whom the Creator Lord has met and joined to Himself shall never again be separated.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 49


    To say the Sargun God is Maya is incorrect. Gurbani does not say this. Gurbani says the God created the Maya for His own purpose. The God permeates and dwells within the multiplicity of forms seen through the illusion of Maya, yet remains ever One. And I have qualified, not every avataar is complete and fully shining the clear Jyoti. There are different degrees among avataars, and different purposes for avataars descent into sansaar. Some are for a particular yuga. Some are for a clarification of Divine sadhana. Some are for protection of Dharma. The God comes for His own purposes. This world is His Lila.


    ਏਕ ਅਨੇਕ ਬਿਆਪਕ ਪੂਰਕ ਜਤ ਦੇਖਉ ਤਤ ਸੋਈ ॥
    eaek anaek biaapak poorak jath dhaekho thath soee ||
    In the one and in the many, He is pervading and permeating; wherever I look, there He is.

    ਮਾਇਆ ਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਬਿਮੋਹਿਤ ਬਿਰਲਾ ਬੂਝੈ ਕੋਈ ॥੧॥
    maaeiaa chithr bachithr bimohith biralaa boojhai koee ||1||
    The marvellous image of Maya is so fascinating; how few understand this. ||1||

    ਸਭੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਸਭੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ ॥
    sabh gobindh hai sabh gobindh hai gobindh bin nehee koee ||
    God is everything, God is everything. Without God, there is nothing at all.

    ਸੂਤੁ ਏਕੁ ਮਣਿ ਸਤ ਸਹੰਸ ਜੈਸੇ ਓਤਿ ਪੋਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    sooth eaek man sath sehans jaisae outh poth prabh soee ||1|| rehaao ||
    As one thread holds hundreds and thousands of beads, He is woven into His creation. ||1||Pause||

    ਜਲ ਤਰੰਗ ਅਰੁ ਫੇਨ ਬੁਦਬੁਦਾ ਜਲ ਤੇ ਭਿੰਨ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
    jal tharang ar faen budhabudhaa jal thae bhinn n hoee ||
    The waves of the water, the foam and bubbles, are not distinct from the water.

    ਇਹੁ ਪਰਪੰਚੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੀ ਲੀਲਾ ਬਿਚਰਤ ਆਨ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੨॥
    eihu parapanch paarabreham kee leelaa bicharath aan n hoee ||2||
    This manifested world is the playful game of the Supreme Lord God; reflecting upon it, we find that it is not different from Him. ||2||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 485




    ਈਘੈ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਊਘੈ ਸਰਗੁਨ ਕੇਲ ਕਰਤ ਬਿਚਿ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਮੇਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    eeghai niragun ooghai saragun kael karath bich suaamee maeraa ||1|| rehaao ||
    In this world, You are the absolute, formless Lord; in the world hereafter, You are the related Lord of form. You play it both ways, O my Lord and Master. ||1||Pause||

    ਨਗਰ ਮਹਿ ਆਪਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਫੁਨਿ ਆਪਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮੇਰੇ ਕੋ ਸਗਲ ਬਸੇਰਾ ॥
    nagar mehi aap baahar fun aapan prabh maerae ko sagal basaeraa ||
    You exist within the city, and beyond it as well; O my God, You are everywhere.

    ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਰਾਜਨੁ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਰਾਇਆ ਕਹ ਕਹ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਕਹ ਕਹ ਚੇਰਾ ॥੧॥
    aapae hee raajan aapae hee raaeiaa keh keh thaakur keh keh chaeraa ||1||
    You Yourself are the King, and You Yourself are the subject. In one place, You are the Lord and Master, and in another place, You are the slave. ||1||

    ਕਾ ਕਉ ਦੁਰਾਉ ਕਾ ਸਿਉ ਬਲਬੰਚਾ ਜਹ ਜਹ ਪੇਖਉ ਤਹ ਤਹ ਨੇਰਾ ॥
    kaa ko dhuraao kaa sio balabanchaa jeh jeh paekho theh theh naeraa ||
    From whom should I hide? Whom should I try to deceive? Wherever I look, I see Him near at hand.

    ਸਾਧ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਭੇਟਿਓ ਨਾਨਕ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਗਰ ਬੂੰਦ ਨਹੀ ਅਨ ਹੇਰਾ ॥੨॥੧॥੧੧੭॥
    saadhh moorath gur bhaettiou naanak mil saagar boondh nehee an haeraa ||2||1||117||
    I have met with Guru Nanak, the Embodiment of the Holy Saints. When the drop of water merges into the ocean, it cannot be distinguished as separate again. ||2||1||117||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 827

    The Guru vaak you quoted does not even speak of Sargun saroop, but of the ego-personalities of others who are NOT God-conscious, not God. It talks about turning away from the world, towards the God. It nowhere talks about turning away from sargun saroop of the God, which is also Guru. That would be like saying Guru vaak is telling to turn away from Guru and towards the nirguna only. But we perceive the nirguna only through the Guru, so that cannot be possible. You claim Gurbani stresses contemplation of the Naam. And again, the Naam of the nirguna is given as beej mantra of the sarguna, because nirguna has no name to utter.



    ਬਟਕ ਬੀਜ ਮਹਿ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਜਾ ਕੋ ਤੀਨਿ ਲੋਕ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ ॥੩॥
    battak beej mehi rav rehiou jaa ko theen lok bisathhaar ||3||
    He is contained in the seed of the banyan-tree, and yet, His expanse spreads across the three worlds. ||3||

    ਅਲਹ ਲਹੰਤਾ ਭੇਦ ਛੈ ਕਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਪਾਇਓ ਭੇਦ ॥
    aleh lehanthaa bhaedh shhai kashh kashh paaeiou bhaedh ||
    One who knows the Lord understands His mystery, and bit by bit, the mystery disappears.

    ਉਲਟਿ ਭੇਦ ਮਨੁ ਬੇਧਿਓ ਪਾਇਓ ਅਭੰਗ ਅਛੇਦ ॥੪॥
    oulatt bhaedh man baedhhiou paaeiou abhang ashhaedh ||4||
    Turning away from the world, one's mind is pierced through with this mystery, and one obtains the Indestructible, Impenetrable Lord. ||4||

    ਤੁਰਕ ਤਰੀਕਤਿ ਜਾਨੀਐ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ॥
    thurak thareekath jaaneeai hindhoo baedh puraan ||
    The Muslim knows the Muslim way of life; the Hindu knows the Vedas and Puraanas.

    ਮਨ ਸਮਝਾਵਨ ਕਾਰਨੇ ਕਛੂਅਕ ਪੜੀਐ ਗਿਆਨ ॥੫॥
    man samajhaavan kaaranae kashhooak parreeai giaan ||5||
    To instruct their minds, people ought to study some sort of spiritual wisdom. ||5||

    ਓਅੰਕਾਰ ਆਦਿ ਮੈ ਜਾਨਾ ॥
    ouankaar aadh mai jaanaa ||
    I know only the One, the Universal Creator, the Primal Being.

    ਲਿਖਿ ਅਰੁ ਮੇਟੈ ਤਾਹਿ ਨ ਮਾਨਾ ॥
    likh ar maettai thaahi n maanaa ||
    I do not believe in anyone whom the Lord writes and erases.

    ਓਅੰਕਾਰ ਲਖੈ ਜਉ ਕੋਈ ॥
    ouankaar lakhai jo koee ||
    If someone knows the One, the Universal Creator,

    ਸੋਈ ਲਖਿ ਮੇਟਣਾ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੬॥
    soee lakh maettanaa n hoee ||6||
    he shall not perish, since he knows Him. ||6||

    ਕਕਾ ਕਿਰਣਿ ਕਮਲ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਵਾ ॥
    kakaa kiran kamal mehi paavaa ||
    KAKKA: When the rays of Divine Light come into the heart-lotus,

    ਸਸਿ ਬਿਗਾਸ ਸੰਪਟ ਨਹੀ ਆਵਾ ॥
    sas bigaas sanpatt nehee aavaa ||
    the moon-light of Maya cannot enter the basket of the mind.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 340


    "I do not believe in anyone whom the Lord writes and erases." What dies? The ego dies. The flesh dies. God-consciousness never dies. So this is telling that all the forms and personalities pass away. But the Shabad-Jyot which is in the Guru, is the Guru, was in all 10 human forms of Guruji, and in the physical form of Shabad Guru Ji Maharaaj cannot ever be erased, because it is merged with the nirguna. This Guru vaak says clearly, if he knows HIM, he will not perish, the Divine Jyot has come into him. So clearly this vaak is not saying what you have intended against sarguna. What interests us about sarguna is not the form at all, but the content. Because the sarguna makes the imperceivable perceivable. It is through the sarguna that we even have Guru's teachings which are the Shabad-Jyot, of a spiritual vibration above and beyond the physical world in which they are expressed.





    ਖਸਮਹਿ ਜਾਣਿ ਖਿਮਾ ਕਰਿ ਰਹੈ ॥
    khasamehi jaan khimaa kar rehai ||
    Knowing their Lord and Master, people show compassion;

    ਤਉ ਹੋਇ ਨਿਖਿਅਉ ਅਖੈ ਪਦੁ ਲਹੈ ॥੮॥
    tho hoe nikhiao akhai padh lehai ||8||
    then, they become immortal, and attain the state of eternal dignity. ||8||

    ਗਗਾ ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਬਚਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥
    gagaa gur kae bachan pashhaanaa ||
    GAGGA: One who understands the Guru's Word

    ਦੂਜੀ ਬਾਤ ਨ ਧਰਈ ਕਾਨਾ ॥
    dhoojee baath n dhharee kaanaa ||
    does not listen to anything else.

    ਰਹੈ ਬਿਹੰਗਮ ਕਤਹਿ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
    rehai bihangam kathehi n jaaee ||
    He remains like a hermit and does not go anywhere,

    ਅਗਹ ਗਹੈ ਗਹਿ ਗਗਨ ਰਹਾਈ ॥੯॥
    ageh gehai gehi gagan rehaaee ||9||
    when he grasps the Ungraspable Lord and dwells in the sky of the Tenth Gate. ||9||

    ਘਘਾ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਨਿਮਸੈ ਸੋਈ ॥
    ghaghaa ghatt ghatt nimasai soee ||
    GHAGHA: He dwells in each and every heart.

    ਘਟ ਫੂਟੇ ਘਟਿ ਕਬਹਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
    ghatt foottae ghatt kabehi n hoee ||
    Even when the body-pitcher bursts, he does not diminish.

    ਤਾ ਘਟ ਮਾਹਿ ਘਾਟ ਜਉ ਪਾਵਾ ॥
    thaa ghatt maahi ghaatt jo paavaa ||
    When someone finds the Path to the Lord within his own heart,

    ਸੋ ਘਟੁ ਛਾਡਿ ਅਵਘਟ ਕਤ ਧਾਵਾ ॥੧੦॥
    so ghatt shhaadd avaghatt kath dhhaavaa ||10||
    why should he abandon that Path to follow some other path? ||10||

    ਙੰਙਾ ਨਿਗ੍ਰਹਿ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਨਿਰਵਾਰੋ ਸੰਦੇਹ ॥
    n(g)ann(g)aa nigrehi sanaehu kar niravaaro sandhaeh ||
    NGANGA: Restrain yourself, love the Lord, and dismiss your doubts.

    ਨਾਹੀ ਦੇਖਿ ਨ ਭਾਜੀਐ ਪਰਮ ਸਿਆਨਪ ਏਹ ॥੧੧॥
    naahee dhaekh n bhaajeeai param siaanap eaeh ||11||
    Even if you do not see the Path, do not run away; this is the highest wisdom. ||11||

    ਚਚਾ ਰਚਿਤ ਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਹੈ ਭਾਰੀ ॥
    chachaa rachith chithr hai bhaaree ||
    CHACHA: He painted the great picture of the world.

    ਤਜਿ ਚਿਤ੍ਰੈ ਚੇਤਹੁ ਚਿਤਕਾਰੀ ॥
    thaj chithrai chaethahu chithakaaree ||
    Forget this picture, and remember the Painter.

    ਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਇਹੈ ਅਵਝੇਰਾ ॥
    chithr bachithr eihai avajhaeraa ||
    This wondrous painting is now the problem.

    ਤਜਿ ਚਿਤ੍ਰੈ ਚਿਤੁ ਰਾਖਿ ਚਿਤੇਰਾ ॥੧੨॥
    thaj chithrai chith raakh chithaeraa ||12||
    Forget this picture and focus your consciousness on the Painter. ||12||

    ਛਛਾ ਇਹੈ ਛਤ੍ਰਪਤਿ ਪਾਸਾ ॥
    shhashhaa eihai shhathrapath paasaa ||
    CHHACHHA: The Sovereign Lord of the Universe is here with you.

    ਛਕਿ ਕਿ ਨ ਰਹਹੁ ਛਾਡਿ ਕਿ ਨ ਆਸਾ ॥
    shhak k n rehahu shhaadd k n aasaa ||
    Why are you so unhappy? Why don't you abandon your desires?

    ਰੇ ਮਨ ਮੈ ਤਉ ਛਿਨ ਛਿਨ ਸਮਝਾਵਾ ॥
    rae man mai tho shhin shhin samajhaavaa ||
    O my mind, each and every moment I try to instruct you,

    ਤਾਹਿ ਛਾਡਿ ਕਤ ਆਪੁ ਬਧਾਵਾ ॥੧੩॥
    thaahi shhaadd kath aap badhhaavaa ||13||
    but you forsake Him, and entangle yourself with others. ||13||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 340



    "They who know HIM become immortal..." Obviously it is saying they who have merged are no longer passing away like the dust. Only the body passes away as the dust. Only the paapi and the karma, and the illusions of Maya pass into the dust. The Immortal ONE lives forever, and the liberated atma merges with Paramatma to become One with the Unborn and Undying Oneness. So it is only a description telling that liberated souls cling to the painter of the world, and not the world. "Dwelling in the Tenth Gate in the sky" is telling clearly, this Gurumukh has attained Turiya consciousness and is now merged with the God above the duality and Maya of sansaaric world. Forgetting "the picture" does not mean forgetting the sarguna, or the Guru's teachings, or Gurbani, or the Shabad-Jyot or the Naam. It means forgetting the sense pleasures of the Maya creation and focusing your search and desire on God Himself, God alone. And here it also says "the God is in every heart, here in sansaara with you." So it clearly is speaking of Guru teachings which is also sarguna. How can Gurbani which is sarguna speak against, or negate sarguna? Why would we read this to say sarguna is merely physical form and passing away, or that sarguna is Maya and hence we do not care about sarguna and should ignore it as you say? We cannot ignore Gurbani. Gurbani is the "speaking voice of silent God." That is the definition of sarguna. We forget the things of the world which are not God. We do not ever forget the God, sarguna AND nirguna (ONENESS) or we should forget and lose ourselves by such definitions based in duality consciousness..

    Sarguna = God present in this world of false appearances. Sarguna = Nirguna. Guru = God. The physical form of Guru = dust. Tenth Master was warning people not to worship Him as His physical form, because after the Tenth Master, there were no human forms to follow. And those who would cling to a human form would not accept Shabad-Guru.


    Who worships the physical form and personality has clung their hopes in something dying, and so is lost to liberation and opens door of despair and suffering. But making this distinction, Gurbani does in fact say the LORD is praised as sarguna, the NAAM is chanted as names of the sargun avataars, Gurbani says Guruji as Guru Nanak Dev Ji and successive forms of the One Jyot are praised by the devas and sages and calls Him clearly as the Transcendant Lord God. If Gurbani is praising sarguna, who are you to call it "wrong teaching?" Without praising the sarguna, you would have no Naam to jap. Because Jap is praise, every time a Sikh chants the name of Vaheguru, that Sikh is automatically praising the nirguna who was present and manifest as the sargun avataars of the Naam itself. So out of what mental gymnastics do people reject the very meaning of Naams of sargun God: Ramachandra, Harikrishan, Vishnu, Vasudeyva, Gobinda, Gopala, Jagannatha, Narayana, and make false claim that to "worship" the sarguna is wrong, only contemplate the uncomtemplatable nirguna? We cannot worship nirguna, we cannot even touch it. We can't even praise nirguna, we cannot even call it! It has nothing to do with simple-mindedness. It is physically impossible for the human brain to conceive or relate to nirguna. The GURU brings the inaccessible down to us. The GURU gives us the MEANS to reach nirguna. And those means are through vehicle of sarguna. NO ONE CAN KNOW GOD WITHOUT A GURU! Guru is Himself, sarguna. Shabad-Jyot is itself sarguna. Gurubani is itself, sarguna. Naam is itself, sarguna, and also names of the sargun avataaras.

    ONCE a Gurmukh's mind and surti is purified of sankalpas and false illusions of physical plane, through opening of Dasm duar, tasting the sublime nectar of amrit Nectar dripping down the throat from the Agni chakr and reaching fourth state Turiya consciousness (transcending beyond world of illusions and limited consciousness), then the path to full merging is opened. He becomes a jeevan-mukt brahmgyani who is no longer an individual atma or an ego, but is the Paramatma, Parameshvara Himself. And only in this way, can someone KNOW the nirguna, japji Sahib says, "Only He Himself, knows Himself." Just by japping Naam and thinking to yourself, "I am focusing on nirguna," is not to perceive and focus on nirguna. God is God fully present in the beej syllables of Vaheguru Gurmantra. God is no less God as Vishnu, Vasudeyv, as Harkrishan, as Gobind, as Raam. Without vehicle of Vaheguru Gurmantra how can we even call nirguna? Without vehicle of sarguna, how can we even imagine the formless? We can pretend to ourselves something about nirguna, but only Guruji has perceived the limits of the God. Do you think a Sikh can contemplate, worship, focus only on the limitless which even Brahma has not imagined? Profound changes and transformation of consciousness must occur before it can even be asserted. When you become Himself, come and tell me about how you contemplate the nirguna only. (BTW, nirguna subsumes all within itself, sarguna and all existance. Nirguna is completion, totality, Nothingness, Emptiness, Fullness and Infinity.) No finite brain can conceive the infinite.


    These NAAMS are our boat of mukti in Kalyug according to Gurubani! And these avataaras WERE the physical descent of the ONE SUPREME ALL-PERVADING nirguna, as a Light in darkness, SATGURU for preceding Yugas according to Gurubani! These avataaras were ONE as GURU NANAK is called avataara, so they WERE previous forms of GURU NANAK. Gurbani is saying HariKrishan IS SAME AS GURU NANAK DEV JI. Guru Nanak follows in this same lineage of Vishnu avataaras, and is Satguru for the Kaliyuga. And people wonder why we have names of Guru forms as HarKrishan and Gobind and Raam. BECAUSE RAAM AND GOBIND HARIKRISHAN ARE THE SAME JYOT AS GURU NANAK! Who is making artificial divisions against sarguna which Gurbani does not make? There is no division between sarguna and nirguna. Nirguna is the complete Light. Sarguna is the Light that shines in this world which can be perceived and thus be a force of liberation. God is God. There is no "only nirgun God" and "false or worthless form of God to be ignored." Sarguna is the only form of God we can even contemplate, identify with and love. Because nirguna is beyond descriptions or kalpas of the mind. There isn't even a Naam to jap without sarguna. Who worships sarguna is worshipping the nirguna. Sarguna is only the nirguna which has come to visit us with physical Presence. Do not despise the avataara who dies. Because the God-consciousness of the avataar is UNDYING ONENESS.


    ਜੋਤੀ ਹੂ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਜਾਪਦਾ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਗੁਰ ਬੂਝ ਨ ਪਾਇ ॥
    jothee hoo prabh jaapadhaa bin sathagur boojh n paae ||
    Through His Light, God is revealed. Without the True Guru, understanding is not obtained.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 35



    ਜਿਉ ਬੋਲਾਏ ਤਿਉ ਬੋਲੀਐ ਜਾ ਆਪਿ ਬੁਲਾਏ ਸੋਇ ॥
    jio bolaaeae thio boleeai jaa aap bulaaeae soe ||
    I speak just as He makes me speak, when He Himself makes me speak.

    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਹੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
    guramukh baanee breham hai sabadh milaavaa hoe ||
    The Word of the Gurmukh is God Himself. Through the Shabad, we merge in Him.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 39




    ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਗੁਰ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
    maerae man gur jaevadd avar n koe ||
    O my mind, there is no other as great as the Guru.

    ਦੂਜਾ ਥਾਉ ਨ ਕੋ ਸੁਝੈ ਗੁਰ ਮੇਲੇ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    dhoojaa thhaao n ko sujhai gur maelae sach soe ||1|| rehaao ||
    I cannot imagine any other place. The Guru leads me to meet the True Lord. ||1||Pause||

    ਸਗਲ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਤਿਸੁ ਮਿਲੇ ਜਿਨਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਡਿਠਾ ਜਾਇ ॥
    sagal padhaarathh this milae jin gur ddithaa jaae ||
    Those who go to see the Guru obtain all treasures.

    ਗੁਰ ਚਰਣੀ ਜਿਨ ਮਨੁ ਲਗਾ ਸੇ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਮਾਇ ॥
    gur charanee jin man lagaa sae vaddabhaagee maae ||
    Those whose minds are attached to the Guru's Feet are very fortunate, O my mother.

    ਗੁਰੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਮਰਥੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
    gur dhaathaa samarathh gur gur sabh mehi rehiaa samaae ||
    The Guru is the Giver, the Guru is All-powerful. The Guru is All-pervading, contained amongst all.

    ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਡੁਬਦਾ ਲਏ ਤਰਾਇ ॥੨॥
    gur paramaesar paarabreham gur ddubadhaa leae tharaae ||2||
    The Guru is the Transcendent Lord, the Supreme Lord God. The Guru lifts up and saves those who are drowning. ||2||

    ਕਿਤੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਾਲਾਹੀਐ ਕਰਣ ਕਾਰਣ ਸਮਰਥੁ ॥
    kith mukh gur saalaaheeai karan kaaran samarathh ||
    How shall I praise the Guru, the All-powerful Cause of causes?

    ਸੇ ਮਥੇ ਨਿਹਚਲ ਰਹੇ ਜਿਨ ਗੁਰਿ ਧਾਰਿਆ ਹਥੁ ॥
    sae mathhae nihachal rehae jin gur dhhaariaa hathh ||
    Those, upon whose foreheads the Guru has placed His Hand, remain steady and stable.

    ਗੁਰਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਪੀਆਲਿਆ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਕਾ ਪਥੁ ॥
    gur anmrith naam peeaaliaa janam maran kaa pathh ||
    The Guru has led me to drink in the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, the Name of the Lord; He has released me from the cycle of birth and death.

    ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਭੈ ਭੰਜਨੁ ਦੁਖ ਲਥੁ ॥੩॥
    gur paramaesar saeviaa bhai bhanjan dhukh lathh ||3||
    I serve the Guru, the Transcendent Lord, the Dispeller of fear; my suffering has been taken away. ||3||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 49




    ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰੁ ਪੂਜੀਐ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਲਾਇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥
    gur paramaesur poojeeai man than laae piaar ||
    Worship the Guru, the Transcendent Lord, with your mind and body attuned to love.

    ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਜੀਅ ਕਾ ਸਭਸੈ ਦੇਇ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥
    sathigur dhaathaa jeea kaa sabhasai dhaee adhhaar ||
    The True Guru is the Giver of the soul; He gives Support to all.

    ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਚਨ ਕਮਾਵਣੇ ਸਚਾ ਏਹੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
    sathigur bachan kamaavanae sachaa eaehu veechaar ||
    Act according to the Instructions of the True Guru; this is the true philosophy.

    ਬਿਨੁ ਸਾਧੂ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਰਤਿਆ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਸਭੁ ਛਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
    bin saadhhoo sangath rathiaa maaeiaa mohu sabh shhaar ||1||
    Without being attuned to the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, all attachment to Maya is just dust. ||1||

    ਮੇਰੇ ਸਾਜਨ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਮਾਲਿ ॥
    maerae saajan har har naam samaal ||
    O my friend, reflect upon the Name of the Lord, Har, Har

    ਸਾਧੂ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਪੂਰਨ ਹੋਵੈ ਘਾਲ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    saadhhoo sangath man vasai pooran hovai ghaal ||1|| rehaao ||
    In the Saadh Sangat, He dwells within the mind, and one's works are brought to perfect fruition. ||1||Pause||

    ਗੁਰੁ ਸਮਰਥੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
    gur samarathh apaar gur vaddabhaagee dharasan hoe ||
    The Guru is All-powerful, the Guru is Infinite. By great good fortune, the Blessed Vision of His Darshan is obtained.

    ਗੁਰੁ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਨਿਰਮਲਾ ਗੁਰ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
    gur agochar niramalaa gur jaevadd avar n koe ||
    The Guru is Imperceptible, Immaculate and Pure. There is no other as great as the Guru.

    ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਣਹਾਰੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਚੀ ਸੋਇ ॥
    gur karathaa gur karanehaar guramukh sachee soe ||
    The Guru is the Creator, the Guru is the Doer. The Gurmukh obtains true glory.

    ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਹੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜੇ ਸੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੨॥
    gur thae baahar kishh nehee gur keethaa lorrae s hoe ||2||
    Nothing is beyond the Guru; whatever He wishes comes to pass. ||2||

    ਗੁਰੁ ਤੀਰਥੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਜਾਤੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਮਨਸਾ ਪੂਰਣਹਾਰੁ ॥
    gur theerathh gur paarajaath gur manasaa pooranehaar ||
    The Guru is the Sacred Shrine of Pilgrimage, the Guru is the Wish-fulfilling Elysian Tree.

    ਗੁਰੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੇਇ ਉਧਰੈ ਸਭੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥
    gur dhaathaa har naam dhaee oudhharai sabh sansaar ||
    The Guru is the Fulfiller of the desires of the mind. The Guru is the Giver of the Name of the Lord, by which all the world is saved.

    ਗੁਰੁ ਸਮਰਥੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਊਚਾ ਅਗਮ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥
    gur samarathh gur nirankaar gur oochaa agam apaar ||
    The Guru is All-powerful, the Guru is Formless; the Guru is Lofty, Inaccessible and Infinite.

    ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਅਗਮ ਹੈ ਕਿਆ ਕਥੇ ਕਥਨਹਾਰੁ ॥੩॥
    gur kee mehimaa agam hai kiaa kathhae kathhanehaar ||3||
    The Praise of the Guru is so sublime-what can any speaker say? ||3||

    ਜਿਤੜੇ ਫਲ ਮਨਿ ਬਾਛੀਅਹਿ ਤਿਤੜੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪਾਸਿ ॥
    jitharrae fal man baashheeahi thitharrae sathigur paas ||
    All the rewards which the mind desires are with the True Guru.

    ਪੂਰਬ ਲਿਖੇ ਪਾਵਣੇ ਸਾਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੇ ਰਾਸਿ ॥
    poorab likhae paavanae saach naam dhae raas ||
    One whose destiny is so pre-ordained, obtains the Wealth of the True Name.

    ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਰਣੀ ਆਇਆਂ ਬਾਹੁੜਿ ਨਹੀ ਬਿਨਾਸੁ ॥
    sathigur saranee aaeiaaan baahurr nehee binaas ||
    Entering the Sanctuary of the True Guru, you shall never die again.

    ਹਰਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਵਿਸਰਉ ਏਹੁ ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਾਸੁ ॥੪॥੨੯॥੯੯॥
    har naanak kadhae n visaro eaehu jeeo pindd thaeraa saas ||4||29||99||
    Nanak: may I never forget You, Lord. This soul, body and breath are Yours. ||4||29||99||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 52




    Gurbani says, "Har Nanak." End of debate.





    ਤਿਨਿ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਦਾਸੁ ਸੋਢੀ ਥਿਰੁ ਥਪ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ॥
    thin sree raamadhaas sodtee thhir thhapyo ||
    Then, He firmly established the Great Raam Daas of the Sodhi dynasty.

    ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਖੈ ਨਿਧਿ ਅਪ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ॥
    har kaa naam akhai nidhh apyo ||
    He was blessed with the inexhaustible treasure of the Lord's Name.

    ਅਪ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਖੈ ਨਿਧਿ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗਿ ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਿ ਫਲੁ ਲਹੀਅੰ ॥
    apyo har naam akhai nidhh chahu jug gur saevaa kar fal leheean ||
    He was blessed with the treasure of the Lord's Name; throughout the four ages, it is inexhaustible. Serving the Guru, He received His reward.

    ਬੰਦਹਿ ਜੋ ਚਰਣ ਸਰਣਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਪਰਮਾਨੰਦ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕਹੀਅੰ ॥
    bandhehi jo charan saran sukh paavehi paramaanandh guramukh keheean ||
    Those who bow at His Feet and seek His Sanctuary, are blessed with peace; those Gurmukhs are blessed with supreme bliss.

    ਪਰਤਖਿ ਦੇਹ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਆਦਿ ਰੂਪਿ ਪੋਖਣ ਭਰਣੰ ॥
    parathakh dhaeh paarabreham suaamee aadh roop pokhan bharanan ||
    The Guru's Body is the Embodiment of the Supreme Lord God, our Lord and Master, the Form of the Primal Being, who nourishes and cherishes all.

    ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਿ ਅਲਖ ਗਤਿ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਦਾਸੁ ਤਾਰਣ ਤਰਣੰ ॥੧॥
    sathigur gur saev alakh gath jaa kee sree raamadhaas thaaran tharanan ||1||
    So serve the Guru, the True Guru; His ways and means are inscrutable. The Great Guru Raam Daas is the Boat to carry us across. ||1||

    ਜਿਹ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਚਨ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਾਧੂ ਜਨ ਜਪਹਿ ਕਰਿ ਬਿਚਿਤਿ ਚਾਓ ॥
    jih anmrith bachan baanee saadhhoo jan japehi kar bichith chaaou ||
    The Holy people chant the Ambrosial Words of His Bani with delight in their minds.

    ਆਨੰਦੁ ਨਿਤ ਮੰਗਲੁ ਗੁਰ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਸਫਲੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ॥
    aanandh nith mangal gur dharasan safal sansaar ||
    The Blessed Vision of the Guru's Darshan is fruitful and rewarding in this world; it brings lasting bliss and joy.

    ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ਸਫਲੁ ਗੰਗਾ ਗੁਰ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪਰਸਨ ਪਰਮ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਗਤੇ ॥
    sansaar safal gangaa gur dharasan parasan param pavithr gathae ||
    The Guru's Darshan is fruitful and rewarding in this world, like the Ganges. Meeting Him, the supreme sacred status is obtained.

    ਜੀਤਹਿ ਜਮ ਲੋਕੁ ਪਤਿਤ ਜੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਸਿਵ ਗੁਰ ਗ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨਿ ਰਤੇ ॥
    jeethehi jam lok pathith jae praanee har jan siv gur gyaan rathae ||
    Even sinful people conquer the realm of Death, if they become the Lord's humble servants, and are imbued with the Guru's spiritual wisdom.

    ਰਘੁਬੰਸਿ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਸੁੰਦਰੁ ਦਸਰਥ ਘਰਿ ਮੁਨਿ ਬੰਛਹਿ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਸਰਣੰ ॥
    raghubans thilak sundhar dhasarathh ghar mun banshhehi jaa kee saranan ||
    He is certified, like the handsome Ram Chander in the house of Dasrath of the Raghwa dynasty. Even the silent sages seek His Sanctuary.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1401





    ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤੀ ਕਾਜੁ ਸੁਹੇਲਾ ਗੁਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਦਾਨੁ ਦਿਵਾਇਆ ॥
    har har bhagathee kaaj suhaelaa gur sathigur dhaan dhivaaeiaa ||
    Through devotional worship to the Lord, this ceremony is made blissful and beautiful; the Guru, the True Guru, has given this gift.

    ਖੰਡਿ ਵਰਭੰਡਿ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਭਾ ਹੋਈ ਇਹੁ ਦਾਨੁ ਨ ਰਲੈ ਰਲਾਇਆ ॥
    khandd varabhandd har sobhaa hoee eihu dhaan n ralai ralaaeiaa ||
    Across the continents, and throughout the Universe, the Lord's Glory is pervading. This gift is not diminished by being diffused among all.

    ਹੋਰਿ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਦਾਜੁ ਜਿ ਰਖਿ ਦਿਖਾਲਹਿ ਸੁ ਕੂੜੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ਕਚੁ ਪਾਜੋ ॥
    hor manamukh dhaaj j rakh dhikhaalehi s koorr ahankaar kach paajo ||
    Any other dowry, which the self-willed manmukhs offer for show, is only false egotism and a worthless display.

    ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮੇਰੇ ਬਾਬੁਲਾ ਹਰਿ ਦੇਵਹੁ ਦਾਨੁ ਮੈ ਦਾਜੋ ॥੪॥
    har prabh maerae baabulaa har dhaevahu dhaan mai dhaajo ||4||
    O my father, please give me the Name of the Lord God as my wedding gift and dowry. ||4

    ਹਰਿ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਮ ਮੇਰੇ ਬਾਬੋਲਾ ਪਿਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਧਨ ਵੇਲ ਵਧੰਦੀ ॥
    har raam raam maerae baabolaa pir mil dhhan vael vadhhandhee ||
    The Lord, Raam, Raam, is All-pervading, O my father. Meeting her Husband Lord, the soul-bride blossoms forth like the flourishing vine.

    ਹਰਿ ਜੁਗਹ ਜੁਗੋ ਜੁਗ ਜੁਗਹ ਜੁਗੋ ਸਦ ਪੀੜੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਚਲੰਦੀ ॥
    har jugeh jugo jug jugeh jugo sadh peerree guroo chalandhee ||
    In age after age, through all the ages, forever and ever, those who belong to the Guru's Family shall prosper and increase.

    ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ ਪੀੜੀ ਚਲੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਜਿਨੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥
    jug jug peerree chalai sathigur kee jinee guramukh naam dhhiaaeiaa ||
    Age after age, the Family of the True Guru shall increase. As Gurmukh, they meditate on the Naam, the Name of the Lord.

    ਹਰਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨ ਕਬ ਹੀ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਜਾਵੈ ਨਿਤ ਦੇਵੈ ਚੜੈ ਸਵਾਇਆ ॥
    har purakh n kab hee binasai jaavai nith dhaevai charrai savaaeiaa ||
    The Almighty Lord never dies or goes away. Whatever He gives, keeps on increasing.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਸੰਤ ਸੰਤ ਹਰਿ ਏਕੋ ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੋਹੰਦੀ ॥
    naanak santh santh har eaeko jap har har naam sohandhee ||
    O Nanak, the One Lord is the Saint of Saints. Chanting the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, the soul-bride is bountiful and beautiful.

    ਹਰਿ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਮ ਮੇਰੇ ਬਾਬੁਲਾ ਪਿਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਧਨ ਵੇਲ ਵਧੰਦੀ ॥੫॥੧॥
    har raam raam maerae baabulaa pir mil dhhan vael vadhhandhee ||5||1||
    The Lord, Raam, Raam, is All-pervading, O my father. Meeting her Husband Lord, the soul-bride blossoms forth like the flourishing vine. ||5||1||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 79



    ਗੁਰਮੁਖੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਦਰੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
    guramukhae guramukh nadharee raam piaaraa raam ||
    As Gurmukh, the Gurmukh beholds the Lord, the Beloved Lord.

    ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਜਗਤ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮਿ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
    raam naam piaaraa jagath nisathaaraa raam naam vaddiaaee ||
    The Name of the Lord, the Emancipator of the world, is dear to him; the Name of the Lord is his glory.

    ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਬੋਹਿਥਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਰਿ ਲਘਾਈ ॥
    kalijug raam naam bohithhaa guramukh paar laghaaee ||
    In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Lord's Name is the boat, which carries the Gurmukh across.

    ਹਲਤਿ ਪਲਤਿ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੁਹੇਲੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕਰਣੀ ਸਾਰੀ ॥
    halath palath raam naam suhaelae guramukh karanee saaree ||
    This world, and the world hereafter, are adorned with the Lord's Name; the Gurmukh's lifestyle is the most excellent.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਤਿ ਦਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਵੈ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮਿ ਨਿਸਤਾਰੀ ॥੧॥
    naanak dhaath dhaeiaa kar dhaevai raam naam nisathaaree ||1||
    O Nanak, bestowing His kindness, the Lord gives the gift of His emancipating Name. ||1||

    ਰਾਮੋ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਿਆ ਦੁਖ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਨਾਸ ਗਵਾਇਆ ਰਾਮ ॥
    raamo raam naam japiaa dhukh kilavikh naas gavaaeiaa raam ||
    I chant the Name of the Lord, Raam, Raam, which destroys my sorrows and erases my sins.

    ਗੁਰ ਪਰਚੈ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਚੈ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਮੈ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਵਾਇਆ ਰਾਮ ॥
    gur parachai gur parachai dhhiaaeiaa mai hiradhai raam ravaaeiaa raam ||
    Associating with the Guru, associating with the Guru, I practice meditation; I have enshrined the Lord within my heart.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 443




    ਆਤਮ ਜਉ ਨਿਰਮਾਇਲੁ ਕੀਜੈ ਆਪ ਬਰਾਬਰਿ ਕੰਚਨੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਸਰਿ ਤਊ ਨ ਪੂਜੈ ॥੩॥
    aatham jo niramaaeil keejai aap baraabar kanchan dheejai raam naam sar thoo n poojai ||3||
    He may purify his soul, and give away in charity his body weight in gold; none of these is equal to the worship of the Lord's Name. ||3||

    ਮਨਹਿ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ਰੋਸੁ ਜਮਹਿ ਨ ਦੀਜੈ ਦੋਸੁ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਨਿਰਬਾਣ ਪਦੁ ਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਲੀਜੈ ॥
    manehi n keejai ros jamehi n dheejai dhos niramal nirabaan padh cheenih leejai ||
    Do not harbor anger in your mind, or blame the Messenger of Death; instead, realize the immaculate state of Nirvaanaa.

    ਜਸਰਥ ਰਾਇ ਨੰਦੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਚੰਦੁ ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਾ ਤਤੁ ਰਸੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਜੈ ॥੪॥੪॥
    jasarathh raae nandh raajaa maeraa raam chandh pranavai naamaa thath ras anmrith peejai ||4||4||
    My Sovereign Lord King is Raam Chandra,the Son of the King Dasrat'h; prays Naam Dayv,I drink in the Ambrosial Nectar. ||4||4||

    ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਜੀ ਕੀ
    raamakalee baanee ravidhaas jee kee
    Raamkalee, The Word Of Ravi Daas Jee:

    ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
    ik oankaar sathigur prasaadh ||
    One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

    ਪੜੀਐ ਗੁਨੀਐ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਭੁ ਸੁਨੀਐ ਅਨਭਉ ਭਾਉ ਨ ਦਰਸੈ ॥
    parreeai guneeai naam sabh suneeai anabho bhaao n dharasai ||
    They read and reflect upon all the Names of God; they listen, but they do not see the Lord, the embodiment of love and intuition.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 973




    ਗਿਰਿ ਤਰ ਜਲ ਜੁਆਲਾ ਭੈ ਰਾਖਿਓ ਰਾਜਾ ਰਾਮਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਫੇਰੀ ॥੩॥
    gir thar jal juaalaa bhai raakhiou raajaa raam maaeiaa faeree ||3||
    Prahlaad was thrown off a mountain, into the water, and into a fire, but the Sovereign Lord God saved him, by changing the laws of nature. ||3||

    ਕਾਢਿ ਖੜਗੁ ਕਾਲੁ ਭੈ ਕੋਪਿਓ ਮੋਹਿ ਬਤਾਉ ਜੁ ਤੁਹਿ ਰਾਖੈ ॥
    kaadt kharrag kaal bhai kopiou mohi bathaao j thuhi raakhai ||
    Harnaakhash thundered with rage and threatened to kill Prahlaad. ""Tell me, who can save you?""

    ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤਾਂਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ਥੰਭ ਮਾਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਖੈ ॥੪॥
    peeth peethaanbar thribhavan dhhanee thhanbh maahi har bhaakhai ||4||
    Prahlaad answered, ""The Lord, the Master of the three worlds, is contained even in this pillar to which I am tied.""||4||

    ਹਰਨਾਖਸੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਨਖਹ ਬਿਦਾਰਿਓ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਕੀਏ ਸਨਾਥਾ ॥
    haranaakhas jin nakheh bidhaariou sur nar keeeae sanaathhaa ||
    The Lord who tore Harnaakhash apart with His nails proclaimed Himself the Lord of gods and men.

    ਕਹਿ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਹਮ ਨਰਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਵਹ ਰਾਮੁ ਅਭੈ ਪਦ ਦਾਤਾ ॥੫॥੩॥੯॥
    kehi naamadhaeo ham narehar dhhiaaveh raam abhai padh dhaathaa ||5||3||9||
    Says Naam Dayv, I meditate on the Lord, the Man-lion, the Giver of fearless dignity. ||5||3||9

    ਸੁਲਤਾਨੁ ਪੂਛੈ ਸੁਨੁ ਬੇ ਨਾਮਾ ॥
    sulathaan pooshhai sun bae naamaa ||
    The Sultan said, ""Listen, Naam Dayv:

    ਦੇਖਉ ਰਾਮ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੇ ਕਾਮਾ ॥੧॥
    dhaekho raam thumhaarae kaamaa ||1||
    let me see the actions of your Lord.""||1||

    ਨਾਮਾ ਸੁਲਤਾਨੇ ਬਾਧਿਲਾ ॥
    naamaa sulathaanae baadhhilaa ||
    The Sultan arrested Naam Dayv,

    ਦੇਖਉ ਤੇਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਬੀਠੁਲਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    dhaekho thaeraa har beethulaa ||1|| rehaao ||
    and said, ""Let me see your Beloved Lord.""||1||Pause||

    ਬਿਸਮਿਲਿ ਗਊ ਦੇਹੁ ਜੀਵਾਇ ॥
    bisamil goo dhaehu jeevaae ||
    "Bring this dead cow back to life.

    ਨਾਤਰੁ ਗਰਦਨਿ ਮਾਰਉ ਠਾਂਇ ॥੨॥
    naathar garadhan maaro thaane ||2||
    Otherwise, I shall cut off your head here and now.""||2||

    ਬਾਦਿਸਾਹ ਐਸੀ ਕਿਉ ਹੋਇ ॥
    baadhisaah aisee kio hoe ||
    Naam Dayv answered, ""O king, how can this happen?

    ਬਿਸਮਿਲਿ ਕੀਆ ਨ ਜੀਵੈ ਕੋਇ ॥੩॥
    bisamil keeaa n jeevai koe ||3||
    No one can bring the dead back to life. ||3||

    ਮੇਰਾ ਕੀਆ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥
    maeraa keeaa kashhoo n hoe ||
    I cannot do anything by my own actions.

    ਕਰਿ ਹੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਹੋਇ ਹੈ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥
    kar hai raam hoe hai soe ||4||
    Whatever the Lord does, that alone happens.""||4||

    ਬਾਦਿਸਾਹੁ ਚੜ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਓ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਿ ॥
    baadhisaahu charrihou ahankaar ||
    The arrogant king was enraged at this reply.

    ਗਜ ਹਸਤੀ ਦੀਨੋ ਚਮਕਾਰਿ ॥੫॥
    gaj hasathee dheeno chamakaar ||5||
    He incited an elephant to attack. ||5||

    ਰੁਦਨੁ ਕਰੈ ਨਾਮੇ ਕੀ ਮਾਇ ॥
    rudhan karai naamae kee maae ||
    Naam Dayv's mother began to cry,

    ਛੋਡਿ ਰਾਮੁ ਕੀ ਨ ਭਜਹਿ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥੬॥
    shhodd raam kee n bhajehi khudhaae ||6||
    and she said, "Why don't you abandon your Lord Raam, and worship his Lord Allah?"||6||

    ਨ ਹਉ ਤੇਰਾ ਪੂੰਗੜਾ ਨ ਤੂ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਇ ॥
    n ho thaeraa poongarraa n thoo maeree maae ||
    Naam Dayv answered, ""I am not your son, and you are not my mother.

    ਪਿੰਡੁ ਪੜੈ ਤਉ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਇ ॥੭॥
    pindd parrai tho har gun gaae ||7||
    Even if my body dies, I will still sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord.""||7||

    ਕਰੈ ਗਜਿੰਦੁ ਸੁੰਡ ਕੀ ਚੋਟ ॥
    karai gajindh sundd kee chott ||
    The elephant attacked him with his trunk,

    ਨਾਮਾ ਉਬਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਓਟ ॥੮॥
    naamaa oubarai har kee outt ||8||
    but Naam Dayv was saved, protected by the Lord. ||8||

    ਕਾਜੀ ਮੁਲਾਂ ਕਰਹਿ ਸਲਾਮੁ ॥
    kaajee mulaan karehi salaam ||
    The king said, ""The Qazis and the Mullahs bow down to me,

    ਇਨਿ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਲਿਆ ਮਾਨੁ ॥੯॥
    ein hindhoo maeraa maliaa maan ||9||
    but this Hindu has trampled my honor.""||9||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1165




    ਜਪਿ ਮਨ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਜਗੰਨਾਥ ॥
    jap man raam naam jagannaathh ||
    Chant, O my mind, the Name of the Lord, the Lord of the Universe.

    ਘੂਮਨ ਘੇਰ ਪਰੇ ਬਿਖੁ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਾਢਿ ਲੀਏ ਦੇ ਹਾਥ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    ghooman ghaer parae bikh bikhiaa sathigur kaadt leeeae dhae haathh ||1|| rehaao ||
    I was caught in the whirlpool of poisonous sin and corruption. The True Guru gave me His Hand; He lifted me up and pulled me out. ||1||Pause||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1296



    Who is Jagannath?
    Who is Har?
    Who is Raam?
    Who is Narain?
    Who is Parameshvar?




    ਬੇਵਜੀਰ ਬਡੇ ਧੀਰ ਧਰਮ ਅੰਗ ਅਲਖ ਅਗਮ ਖੇਲੁ ਕੀਆ ਆਪਣੈ ਉਛਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
    baevajeer baddae dhheer dhharam ang alakh agam khael keeaa aapanai oushhaahi jeeo
    You have no advisors, You are so very patient; You are the Upholder of the Dharma, unseen and unfathomable. You have staged the play of the Universe with joy and delight.

    ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਕਥੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ਤੀਨਿ ਲੋਕ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ਸੁਤਹ ਸਿਧ ਰੂਪੁ ਧਰਿਓ ਸਾਹਨ ਕੈ ਸਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
    akathh kathhaa kathhee n jaae theen lok rehiaa samaae sutheh sidhh roop dhhariou saahan kai saahi jeeo ||
    No one can speak Your Unspoken Speech. You are pervading the three worlds. You assume the form of spiritual perfection, O King of kings.

    ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥੮॥
    sath saach sree nivaas aadh purakh sadhaa thuhee vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jeeo ||3||8||
    You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||3||8||

    ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਬਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥
    sathiguroo sathiguroo sathigur gubindh jeeo ||
    The True Guru, the True Guru, the True Guru is the Lord of the Universe Himself.

    ਬਲਿਹਿ ਛਲਨ ਸਬਲ ਮਲਨ ਭਗ੍ਤਿ ਫਲਨ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕੁਅਰ ਨਿਹਕਲੰਕ ਬਜੀ ਡੰਕ ਚੜ੍ਹੂ ਦਲ ਰਵਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥
    balihi shhalan sabal malan bhagio falan kaanh kuar nihakalank bajee ddank charrhoo dhal ravindh jeeo ||
    Enticer of Baliraja, who smothers the mighty, and fulfills the devotees; the Prince Krishna, and Kalki; the thunder of His army and the beat of His drum echoes across the Universe.

    ਰਾਮ ਰਵਣ ਦੁਰਤ ਦਵਣ ਸਕਲ ਭਵਣ ਕੁਸਲ ਕਰਣ ਸਰਬ ਭੂਤ ਆਪਿ ਹੀ ਦੇਵਾਧਿ ਦੇਵ ਸਹਸ ਮੁਖ ਫਨਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥
    raam ravan dhurath dhavan sakal bhavan kusal karan sarab bhooth aap hee dhaevaadhh dhaev sehas mukh fanindh jeeo ||
    The Lord of contemplation, Destroyer of sin, who brings pleasure to the beings of all realms, He Himself is the God of gods, Divinity of the divine, the thousand-headed king cobra.

    ਜਰਮ ਕਰਮ ਮਛ ਕਛ ਹੁਅ ਬਰਾਹ ਜਮੁਨਾ ਕੈ ਕੂਲਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਖੇਲਿਓ ਜਿਨਿ ਗਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥
    jaram karam mashh kashh hua baraah jamunaa kai kool khael khaeliou jin gindh jeeo ||
    He took birth in the Incarnations of the Fish, Tortoise and Wild Boar, and played His part. He played games on the banks of the Jamunaa River.

    ਨਾਮੁ ਸਾਰੁ ਹੀਏ ਧਾਰੁ ਤਜੁ ਬਿਕਾਰੁ ਮਨ ਗਯੰਦ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਗੁਬਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੯॥
    naam saar heeeae dhhaar thaj bikaar man gayandh sathiguroo sathiguroo sathigur gubindh jeeo ||4||9||
    Enshrine this most excellent Name within your heart, and renounce the wickedness of the mind, O Gayand the True Guru, the True Guru, the True Guru is the Lord of the Universe Himself. ||4||9||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1403




    ਸਤਿਜੁਗਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਾਸਦੇਵ ਵਵਾ ਵਿਸਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।
    satijugi satigur vaasadayv vavaa visanaa naamu japaavai|
    In Satyug, Visnu in the form of Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vahiguru reminds of Visnu.

    ਦੁਆਪਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।
    duaapari satigur haree krisan haahaa hari hari naamu japaavai|
    The true Guru of dvapar is said to be Harikrsna and ‘H’ of Vahiguru reminds of Hari.

    ਤੇਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਰਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਜਪੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ ।
    taytay satigur raam jee raaraa raam japay sukhu paavai|
    In the the treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vahiguru tells that rembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.

    ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗਗਾ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਲਾਵੈ ।
    kalijugi naanak gur gobind gagaa gobind naamu alaavai|
    In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited.

    ਚਾਰੇ ਜਾਗੇ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਪੰਚਾਇਣ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਾਇ ਸਮਾਵੈ ।
    chaaray jaagay chahu jugee panchaain vichi jaai samaavai|
    The recitations o f all the four ages subsume in Panchayan i.e. in the soul of the common man.

    ਚਾਰੋ ਅਛਰ ਇਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਜਪੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।
    chaaro achhar iku kari vaahaguroo japu mantr japaavai|
    When joining four letters Vahiguru is remembered,

    ਜਹਾ ਤੇ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਤਹਾ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥੪੯॥੧॥
    jahaa tay upajiaa dhiri tahaa samaavai ॥49॥1॥
    The jiv merges again in its origin.
    Vaar 1 Pauri 49 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji​





    ਇਕ ਮਨਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਧਿਆਇ ਬਰਦਾਤਾ ॥
    eik man purakh dhhiaae baradhaathaa ||
    Meditate single-mindedly on the Primal Lord God, the Bestower of blessings.

    ਸੰਤ ਸਹਾਰੁ ਸਦਾ ਬਿਖਿਆਤਾ ॥
    santh sehaar sadhaa bikhiaathaa ||
    He is the Helper and Support of the Saints, manifest forever.

    ਤਾਸੁ ਚਰਨ ਲੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਸਾਵਉ ॥
    thaas charan lae ridhai basaavo ||
    Grasp His Feet and enshrine them in your heart.

    ਤਉ ਪਰਮ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵਉ ॥੧॥
    tho param guroo naanak gun gaavo ||1||
    Then, let us sing the Glorious Praises of the most exalted Guru Nanak. ||1||

    ਗਾਵਉ ਗੁਨ ਪਰਮ ਗੁਰੂ ਸੁਖ ਸਾਗਰ ਦੁਰਤ ਨਿਵਾਰਣ ਸਬਦ ਸਰੇ ॥
    gaavo gun param guroo sukh saagar dhurath nivaaran sabadh sarae ||
    I sing the Glorious Praises of the most exalted Guru Nanak, the Ocean of peace, the Eradicator of sins, the sacred pool of the Shabad, the Word of God.

    ਗਾਵਹਿ ਗੰਭੀਰ ਧੀਰ ਮਤਿ ਸਾਗਰ ਜੋਗੀ ਜੰਗਮ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਧਰੇ ॥
    gaavehi ganbheer dhheer math saagar jogee jangam dhhiaan dhharae ||
    The beings of deep and profound understanding, oceans of wisdom, sing of Him; the Yogis and wandering hermits meditate on Him.

    ਗਾਵਹਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਦਿ ਭਗਤ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦਿਕ ਆਤਮ ਰਸੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਾਣਿਓ ॥
    gaavehi eindhraadh bhagath prehilaadhik aatham ras jin jaaniou ||
    Indra and devotees like Prahlaad, who know the joy of the soul, sing of Him.

    ਕਬਿ ਕਲ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਗਾਵਉ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੨॥
    kab kal sujas gaavo gur naanak raaj jog jin maaniou ||2||
    KAL the poet sings the Sublime Praises of Guru Nanak, who enjoys mastery of Raja Yoga, the Yoga of meditation and success. ||2||

    ਗਾਵਹਿ ਜਨਕਾਦਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਜੋਗੇਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਰਸ ਪੂਰਨ ਸਰਬ ਕਲਾ ॥
    gaavehi janakaadh jugath jogaesur har ras pooran sarab kalaa ||
    King Janak and the great Yogic heroes of the Lord's Way, sing the Praises of the All-powerful Primal Being, filled with the sublime essence of the Lord.

    ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਨਕਾਦਿ ਸਾਧ ਸਿਧਾਦਿਕ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਅਛਲ ਛਲਾ ॥
    gaavehi sanakaadh saadhh sidhhaadhik mun jan gaavehi ashhal shhalaa ||
    Sanak and Brahma's sons, the Saadhus and Siddhas, the silent sages and humble servants of the Lord sing the Praises of Guru Nanak, who cannot be deceived by the great deceiver.

    ਗਾਵੈ ਗੁਣ ਧੋਮੁ ਅਟਲ ਮੰਡਲਵੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਭਾਇ ਰਸੁ ਜਾਣਿਓ ॥
    gaavai gun dhhom attal manddalavai bhagath bhaae ras jaaniou ||
    Dhoma the seer and Dhroo, whose realm is unmoving, sing the Glorious Praises of Guru Nanak, who knows the ecstasy of loving devotional worship.

    ਕਬਿ ਕਲ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਗਾਵਉ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੩॥
    kab kal sujas gaavo gur naanak raaj jog jin maaniou ||3||
    KAL the poet sings the Sublime Praises of Guru Nanak, who enjoys mastery of Raja Yoga. ||3||

    ਗਾਵਹਿ ਕਪਿਲਾਦਿ ਆਦਿ ਜੋਗੇਸੁਰ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਵਰੋ ॥
    gaavehi kapilaadh aadh jogaesur aparanpar avathaar varo ||
    Kapila and the other Yogis sing of Guru Nanak. He is the Avataar, the Incarnation of the Infinite Lord.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1389




    ਗਾਵਹਿ ਗੁਣ ਬਰਨ ਚਾਰਿ ਖਟ ਦਰਸਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਦਿਕ ਸਿਮਰੰਥਿ ਗੁਨਾ ॥
    gaavehi gun baran chaar khatt dharasan brehamaadhik simaranthh gunaa ||
    The four castes and the six Shaastras sing His Glorious Praises; Brahma and the others contemplate His Virtues.

    ਗਾਵੈ ਗੁਣ ਸੇਸੁ ਸਹਸ ਜਿਹਬਾ ਰਸ ਆਦਿ ਅੰਤਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗਿ ਧੁਨਾ ॥
    gaavai gun saes sehas jihabaa ras aadh anth liv laag dhhunaa ||
    The thousand-tongued serpent king sings His Praises with delight, remaining lovingly attached to Him.

    ਗਾਵੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਧਿਆਨ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਜਾਣਿਓ ॥
    gaavai gun mehaadhaeo bairaagee jin dhhiaan niranthar jaaniou ||
    Shiva, detached and beyond desire, sings the Glorious Praises of Guru Nanak, who knows the Lord's endless meditation.

    ਕਬਿ ਕਲ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਗਾਵਉ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੫॥
    kab kal sujas gaavo gur naanak raaj jog jin maaniou ||5||
    KAL the poet sings the Sublime Praises of Guru Nanak, who enjoys mastery of Raja Yoga. ||5

    ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਬਸਿਓ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਰਿਦੰਤਰਿ ॥
    raaj jog maaniou basiou niravair ridhanthar ||
    He mastered Raja Yoga, and enjoys sovereignty over both worlds; the Lord, beyond hate and revenge, is enshrined within His Heart.

    ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਗਲ ਉਧਰੀ ਨਾਮਿ ਲੇ ਤਰਿਓ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ॥
    srisatt sagal oudhharee naam lae thariou niranthar ||
    The whole world is saved, and carried across, chanting the Naam, the Name of the Lord.

    ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਨਕਾਦਿ ਆਦਿ ਜਨਕਾਦਿ ਜੁਗਹ ਲਗਿ ॥
    gun gaavehi sanakaadh aadh janakaadh jugeh lag ||
    Sanak and Janak and the others sing His Praises, age after age.

    ਧੰਨਿ ਧੰਨਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਧੰਨਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਸਕਯਥੁ ਭਲੌ ਜਗਿ ॥
    dhhann dhhann gur dhhann janam sakayathh bhala jag ||
    Blessed, blessed, blessed and fruitful is the sublime birth of the Guru into the world.

    ਪਾਤਾਲ ਪੁਰੀ ਜੈਕਾਰ ਧੁਨਿ ਕਬਿ ਜਨ ਕਲ ਵਖਾਣਿਓ ॥
    paathaal puree jaikaar dhhun kab jan kal vakhaaniou ||
    Even in the nether regions, His Victory is celebrated; so says KAL the poet.

    ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਰਸਿਕ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੬॥
    har naam rasik naanak gur raaj jog thai maaniou ||6||
    You are blessed with the Nectar of the Lord's Name, O Guru Nanak; You have mastered Raja Yoga, and enjoy sovereignty over both worlds. ||6||

    ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥
    sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||
    In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

    ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
    thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||
    In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

    ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥
    dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||
    In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

    ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥
    ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||
    You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

    ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
    kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||
    In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

    ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥
    sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||
    The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||

    ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਵਿਦਾਸੁ ਭਗਤੁ ਜੈਦੇਵ ਤ੍ਰਿਲੋਚਨ ॥
    gun gaavai ravidhaas bhagath jaidhaev thrilochan ||
    His Glorious Praises are sung by the devotees Ravi Daas, Jai Dayv and Trilochan.

    ਨਾਮਾ ਭਗਤੁ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਸਦਾ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਮ ਲੋਚਨ ॥
    naamaa bhagath kabeer sadhaa gaavehi sam lochan ||
    The devotees Naam Dayv and Kabeer praise Him continually, knowing Him to be even-eyed.

    ਭਗਤੁ ਬੇਣਿ ਗੁਣ ਰਵੈ ਸਹਜਿ ਆਤਮ ਰੰਗੁ ਮਾਣੈ ॥
    bhagath baen gun ravai sehaj aatham rang maanai ||
    The devotee Baynee sings His Praises; He intuitively enjoys the ecstasy of the soul.

    ਜੋਗ ਧਿਆਨਿ ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨਿ ਬਿਨਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ॥
    jog dhhiaan gur giaan binaa prabh avar n jaanai ||
    He is the Master of Yoga and meditation, and the spiritual wisdom of the Guru; He knows none other except God.

    ਸੁਖਦੇਉ ਪਰੀਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਤੁ ਗੁਣ ਰਵੈ ਗੋਤਮ ਰਿਖਿ ਜਸੁ ਗਾਇਓ ॥
    sukhadhaeo pareekhyath gun ravai gotham rikh jas gaaeiou ||
    Sukh Dayv and Preekhyat sing His Praises, and Gautam the rishi sings His Praise.

    ਕਬਿ ਕਲ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਨਿਤ ਨਵਤਨੁ ਜਗਿ ਛਾਇਓ ॥੮॥
    kab kal sujas naanak gur nith navathan jag shhaaeiou ||8||
    Says KAL the poet, the ever-fresh praises of Guru Nanak are spread throughout the world. ||8||

    ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਪਾਯਾਲਿ ਭਗਤ ਨਾਗਾਦਿ ਭੁਯੰਗਮ ॥
    gun gaavehi paayaal bhagath naagaadh bhuyangam ||
    In the nether worlds, His Praises are sung by the devotees like Shaysh-naag in serpent form.

    ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਗੁਣ ਰਵੈ ਸਦਾ ਜੋਗੀ ਜਤਿ ਜੰਗਮ ॥
    mehaadhaeo gun ravai sadhaa jogee jath jangam ||
    Shiva, the Yogis and the wandering hermits sing His Praises forever.

    ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਮੁਨਿ ਬ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਸੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਬੇਦ ਬ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਕਰਣ ਬੀਚਾਰਿਅ ॥
    gun gaavai mun byaas jin baedh byaakaran beechaaria ||
    Vyaas the silent sage, who studied the Vedas and its grammar, sings His Praise.

    ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਗੁਣ ਉਚਰੈ ਜਿਨਿ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸਭ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਵਾਰੀਅ ॥
    brehamaa gun oucharai jin hukam sabh srisatt savaareea ||
    His Praises are sung by Brahma, who created the entire universe by God's Command.

    ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ਖੰਡ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਣ ਨਿਰਗੁਣ ਸਮ ਜਾਣਿਓ ॥
    brehamandd khandd pooran breham gun niragun sam jaaniou ||
    God fills the galaxies and realms of the universe; He is known to be the same, manifest and unmanifest.

    ਜਪੁ ਕਲ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਸਹਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੯॥
    jap kal sujas naanak gur sehaj jog jin maaniou ||9||
    KAL chants the Sublime Praises of Guru Nanak, who enjoys mastery of Yoga. ||9||

    ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਨਵ ਨਾਥ ਧੰਨਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਾਚਿ ਸਮਾਇਓ ॥
    gun gaavehi nav naathh dhhann gur saach samaaeiou ||
    The nine masters of Yoga sing His Praises; blessed is the Guru, who is merged into the True Lord.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1390



    Gurbani says Guru Nanak is sarguna of the Supreme Lord and all the devas sing His praises. Gurbani says Guru Nanak was Raam Chandra and Har Krishan who were Satguru for certain yugas. So Bhagavad-Gita is same as Gurbani because Gurbani says Guru Nanak is an AVATAR in this same lineage of avataars. Who can question? Who can doubt Gurbani? So why despise or call as worthless or challenge the God-conscious utterances of Krishan avataar claiming to be sargun God merged with Nirgun God? Gurbani does nowhere say Har Krishan is less than nirguna, but says the NAAM of the NARAYANA is called after beej mantra syllables V= VISHNU, VASUDEYVA, H = HARIKRISHAN, G = GOBIND, R = RAAM.


    The very Vaheguru Gurmantra Naam of the Sikhs is PRAISE of the SARGUN NAAMS of the VISHNU AVATAARAS. So veer ji, you do not know what you are talking about trying to separate sarguna from nirguna or make unsupportable claim that worship of Guru as God means going to Hell without qualifying context of worshipping form, as Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji MAHARAAJ clearly sings praise and worship of Guru Nanak Dev Ji (One Jyot in 11 forms) as the GOD Himself and calls Guru Ji an AVATAARA, which is obviously sargun saroop. No offense please, but you cannot reconcile the dozens of tuuks and pauris in Gurbani and in supportive vaaran which make claims contradicting yours.


    ਅੰਗਦਿ ਅਨੰਤ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਨਿਜ ਧਾਰੀ ਅਗਮ ਗ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨਿ ਰਸਿ ਰਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਹੀਅਉ ॥
    angadh ananth moorath nij dhhaaree agam gyaan ras rasyo heeao ||
    The Infinite Lord enshrined His Own Image in Guru Angad. In His heart, He delights in the spiritual wisdom of the Unfathomable Lord.

    ਗੁਰਿ ਅਮਰਦਾਸਿ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ਕੀਅਉ ਵਸਿ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਧ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਇਯਉ ॥
    gur amaradhaas karathaar keeao vas vaahu vaahu kar dhhyaaeiyo ||
    Guru Amar Daas brought the Creator Lord under His control. Waaho! Waaho! Meditate on Him!

    ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਜਯੋ ਜਯ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਤੈ ਹਰਿ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇਯਉ ॥੨॥
    sree gur raamadhaas jayo jay jag mehi thai har param padh paaeiyo ||2||
    O Great and Supreme Guru Raam Daas, Your Victory resounds across the universe. You have attained the supreme status of the Lord. ||2||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1405​



    ~Bhul chak maaf
     
  8. pk70

    pk70
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2008
    Messages:
    1,582
    Likes Received:
    627
    Re: Q&A with Sant Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal

    The Guru vaak you quoted does not even speak of Sargun saroop, but of the ego-personalities of others who are NOT God-conscious, not God. It talks about turning away from the world, towards the God. It nowhere talks about turning away from sargun saroop of the God, which is also Guru. That would be like saying Guru vaak is telling to turn away from Guru and towards the nirguna only. But we perceive the nirguna only through the Guru, so that cannot be possible. You claim Gurbani stresses contemplation of the Naam. And again, the Naam of the nirguna is given as beej mantra of the sarguna, because nirguna has no name to utter.(Quot)
    Definitely it does, Kabir ji talks about who? Sargun Sroop, in which he doesn’t believe, do not try to force on him, your personal imagination which is deep rooted in Sanatna Dharma’s “ a theory that circles around “Sargun Sroop” and once in a while talk about” Nirguna” In Bhagwat Geeta, Lord Krishna, being His sargun sroop, boasts about being” Nirguna’ that is the tragedy and that is the end of that, never ever coming close to Guru Nanak panth.
    ਓਅੰਕਾਰਆਦਿਮੈਜਾਨਾਲਿਖਿਅਰੁਮੇਟੈਤਾਹਿਮਾਨਾਓਅੰਕਾਰਲਖੈਜਉਕੋਈਸੋਈਲਖਿਮੇਟਣਾਹੋਈ
    I know only the One Lord, who is the source of everything.I believe not in him, whom the Lord writes (creates) and erases (destroys). If someone sees the one Lord, he perishes not by beholding Him.
    "I do not believe in anyone whom the Lord writes and erases." What dies? The ego dies. The flesh dies. God-consciousness never dies. So this is telling that all the forms and personalities pass away. But the Shabad-Jyot which is in the Guru, is the Guru, was in all 10 human forms of Guruji, and in the physical form of Shabad Guru Ji Maharaaj cannot ever be erased, because it is merged with the nirguna.

    Please do not mix things, idea is about HIS Power to create and destroy, creation is destroyed, neither Kabir ji talks about the “soul” a part of” Soul of God”, neither I said that. Why Guru ji asks his Sikhs to contemplate on HIM only? Also Guru ji says, those Sikhs please him ( Bhavai). Why? One message, very simple, as others are lost and called blind by Namdev ji, Guru ji doesn’t want his Sikhs to be like them. Soul dies or not, that is not the issue here, you are just trying to mix it, old habit.

    This Guru vaak says clearly, if he knows HIM, he will not perish, the Divine Jyot has come into him. So clearly this vaak is not saying what you have intended against sarguna.

    Kabir ji says” I won’t believe in whom you write or erase? What is that” Sargun Sroop” Period.
    What interests us about sarguna is not the form at all, but the content. Because the sarguna makes the imperceivable perceivable. It is through the sarguna that we even have Guru's teachings which are the Shabad-Jyot, of a spiritual vibration above and beyond the physical world in which they are expressed.
    Well, that is fine, Guru Message is to stick to HIM who creates all, 98 % of Sree Guru Granth Sahib contains Nirguna and His praise; a few lines are picked and that point is made enough to take away Sikhs from Guru Bachan. Why only those please Guru ji who contemplate on Nirguna. Why? Why so stress and clarity, not a chance is given for Sargun worshiping in that Guru Shabad. REREAD
    ਜੋ ਸਾਸਿ ਗਿਰਾਸਿ ਧਿਆਏਮੇਰਾਹਰਿਹਰਿਸੋਗੁਰਸਿਖੁਗੁਰੂਮਨਿਭਾਵੈ
    Jo sās girās ḏẖi*ā*ė mėrā har har so gursikẖ gurū man bẖāvai.
    One who meditates on my Lord, Har, Har, with every breath and every morsel of food - that GurSikh becomes pleasing to the Guru's Mind.(SGGS 305)

    WHY? BECAUSE GUR JI DOESN’T WANT TO CONFUSE HIS FOLLOWERS AS SOME PLAY THAT CONFUSING GAMES.
     
  9. pk70

    pk70
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2008
    Messages:
    1,582
    Likes Received:
    627
    Re: Q&A with Sant Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal

    Who is Jagannath?
    Who is Har?
    Who is Raam?
    Who is Narain?
    Who is Parameshvar?

    All these names are given to the one who permeates all over, not that Ram, Krishna, Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva; if it was true what you have been saying all along while defending your views , why Guru ji would call them" numerous are Rama, Krishna, Shiva etc ?" Have you ever thought for a second that special ones shouldn't be in million. Quotes about this given many times, you just dont accept themt\. How being a Sikh any one can forget Guru bachan( addressed directly to his Sikhs) that advocates to contemplate on" Nirgun" If it were true what you have been saying to attach Sikhism to other sects, Guru ji would have clearly written" these are also His Sargun Sroop, so it is O.K to worship them" but Guru ji says otherwise by counting them in millions. Message is crystal clear, all these are just efforts to negate true Guru Message which stands alone high above previous illusions.
    Guru ji says, HE is our every thing since HE created all those whom people worship. Dont forget, Guru ji also calls HIM Allah...any lesson, I don't hope so Bhain ji?, reason, I understand.
    Bhain ji, you do not know what you are preaching here. All those guys you mention, are called by Guru ji as His creation in millions. Remember, you were saying those are ten special ones, if that dream were a reality, why Guru ji would call "ten specail ones" like millions? In punjabi it is very common to negate others importance by saying" I have seen millions like you" You will never get that though. Answer is simple, it is HIM, Guru asks us to contemplete, it is HIM, he wants us not to forget. Period, all others are in millions, why we should keep an count of them.
     
  10. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2006
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    18
    Re: Q&A with Sant Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal


    satijugi satigur vaasadayv vavaa visanaa naamu japaavai|
    In Satyug, Visnu in the form of Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vahiguru reminds of Visnu.

    ਦੁਆਪਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।
    duaapari satigur haree krisan haahaa hari hari naamu japaavai|
    The true Guru of dvapar is said to be Harikrsna and ‘H’ of Vahiguru reminds of Hari.

    ਤੇਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਰਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਜਪੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ ।
    taytay satigur raam jee raaraa raam japay sukhu paavai|
    In the the treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vahiguru tells that rembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.

    ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗਗਾ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਲਾਵੈ ।
    kalijugi naanak gur gobind gagaa gobind naamu alaavai|
    In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited.
    Vaar 1 Pauri 49 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji


    How is it that Gobinda who is Har Krishna was avataar-incarnation and Satguru for Dwapara Yuga, and Gobinda is come as Satguru Nanak for Kaliyuga and you have audacity to say Krishna is "boasting" implying egotism to His utterances which Gurbani does NOT do, and thus you have defamed your own Satguru Nanak who is the same Gobinda. Not only does Gurbani say, but vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji clarifies that Har Krishan is SATGURU for Dwapara Yuga. So who are you to cast aspersions and defame utterances of God-consciousness in Sri Bhagavad-Gita? Vaaran explicitly is telling that Vaheguru Gurmantra of Sikhs is remembering True Guru and Har of Dwapara Yuga Hari Krishna! So how is Lord Krishna being acknowledged as Sargun saroop of the nirguna a tragedy to claim full completion as Avataar Shabad-Jyot of the Nirguna shining in darkness of sansaara?


    ਹਰਨਾਖਸੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਨਖਹ ਬਿਦਾਰਿਓ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਕੀਏ ਸਨਾਥਾ ॥
    haranaakhas jin nakheh bidhaariou sur nar keeeae sanaathhaa ||
    The Lord who tore Harnaakhash apart with His nails proclaimed Himself the Lord of gods and men.

    ਕਹਿ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਹਮ ਨਰਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਵਹ ਰਾਮੁ ਅਭੈ ਪਦ ਦਾਤਾ ॥੫॥੩॥੯॥
    kehi naamadhaeo ham narehar dhhiaaveh raam abhai padh dhaathaa ||5||3||9||
    Says Naam Dayv, I meditate on the Lord, the Man-lion, the Giver of fearless dignity. ||5||3||9
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1165



    Gurbani says the avataar Narasingh proclaims Himself to be the Lord of gods and Bhagat Naam dev meditates on the Lord God as Narasingh. Is this also "boasting?" Gurbani which you bow down your head and ego to, which has invested this bhagat bani with Gurgaddhi says Narasingh avataar sarguna, is the Lord God nirguna.



    ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥
    sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||
    In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

    ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
    thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||
    In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

    ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥
    dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||
    In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

    ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥
    ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||
    You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

    ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
    kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||
    In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

    ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥
    sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||
    The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||

    ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਵਿਦਾਸੁ ਭਗਤੁ ਜੈਦੇਵ ਤ੍ਰਿਲੋਚਨ ॥
    gun gaavai ravidhaas bhagath jaidhaev thrilochan ||
    His Glorious Praises are sung by the devotees Ravi Daas, Jai Dayv and Trilochan.

    ਨਾਮਾ ਭਗਤੁ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਸਦਾ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਮ ਲੋਚਨ ॥
    naamaa bhagath kabeer sadhaa gaavehi sam lochan ||
    The devotees Naam Dayv and Kabeer praise Him continually, knowing Him to be even-eyed.

    ਭਗਤੁ ਬੇਣਿ ਗੁਣ ਰਵੈ ਸਹਜਿ ਆਤਮ ਰੰਗੁ ਮਾਣੈ ॥
    bhagath baen gun ravai sehaj aatham rang maanai ||
    The devotee Baynee sings His Praises; He intuitively enjoys the ecstasy of the soul.

    ਜੋਗ ਧਿਆਨਿ ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨਿ ਬਿਨਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ॥
    jog dhhiaan gur giaan binaa prabh avar n jaanai ||
    He is the Master of Yoga and meditation, and the spiritual wisdom of the Guru; He knows none other except God.

    ਸੁਖਦੇਉ ਪਰੀਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਤੁ ਗੁਣ ਰਵੈ ਗੋਤਮ ਰਿਖਿ ਜਸੁ ਗਾਇਓ ॥
    sukhadhaeo pareekhyath gun ravai gotham rikh jas gaaeiou ||
    Sukh Dayv and Preekhyat sing His Praises, and Gautam the rishi sings His Praise.

    ਕਬਿ ਕਲ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਨਿਤ ਨਵਤਨੁ ਜਗਿ ਛਾਇਓ ॥੮॥
    kab kal sujas naanak gur nith navathan jag shhaaeiou ||8||
    Says KAL the poet, the ever-fresh praises of Guru Nanak are spread throughout the world. ||8||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1390



    Gurbani is clear, the God (nirguna) has manifested age to age as avataara. The God (nirguna) manifested as Har Krishan, and as Guru Nanak. So what in the world are you talking about veer ji? What false boasting about nirguna? What tragedy that you so falsely imply? How much closer to Guru Nanak Panth can Krishna get than to be called as the same lineage avataara as Guru Nanak Himself? They are ONE with Nirguna veer ji. They are ONE~ Guru Nanak Panth is same mission as Har Krishan. They uphold the Dharma age to age, and set righteousness on it's throne again when it was falling down.

    ~Bhul chak maaf
     
  11. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2006
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    18
    Re: Q&A with Sant Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal

    Acknowledging avataars are numerous is not in any way to diminish sarguna. Avataaras are rays of Light which shine the infinity of the ParamJyoti in infinite worlds far beyond this one. It only shows the limitation of form is transcended because the nirguna manifests these sargun forms infinitely.

    We can't keep an account because it is beyond our comprehension to do so. But the avataaras are acknowledged in Gurbani as sargun saroop. They are all ONE. The Oneness is ALL-PERVADING. There is nothing which is not HIM. So we lose nothing to contemplate on sarguna. In fact, it's all we have. This is why Gurbani calls the many Naams of the nirguna as Hari, Gobind, Raam, Mukundey, Jagannatha, Allah, Shiva, etc. Because they are all ONE. Ek Omkara. Eko Brahman-Trimurthi-Created. The nirguna created the world of three Gunas in the form of three Mahadevas, and subsumes within itself the totality of the creation, including manifestations of the Shabad-Jyot in forms of sarguna.
     
  12. pk70

    pk70
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2008
    Messages:
    1,582
    Likes Received:
    627
    Re: Q&A with Sant Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal

    satijugi satigur vaasadayv vavaa visanaa naamu japaavai|
    In Satyug, Visnu in the form of Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vahiguru reminds of Visnu.

    ਦੁਆਪਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ
    duaapari satigur haree krisan haahaa hari hari naamu japaavai|
    The true Guru of dvapar is said to be Harikrsna and ‘H’ of Vahiguru reminds of Hari.

    ਤੇਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਰਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਜਪੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ
    taytay satigur raam jee raaraa raam japay sukhu paavai|
    In the the treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vahiguru tells that rembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.

    ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗਗਾ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਲਾਵੈ
    kalijugi naanak gur gobind gagaa gobind naamu alaavai|
    In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited.
    Vaar 1 Pauri 49 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji


    How is it that Gobinda who is Har Krishna was avataar-incarnation and Satguru for Dwapara Yuga, and Gobinda is come as Satguru Nanak for Kaliyuga and you have audacity to say Krishna is "boasting" implying egotism to His utterances which Gurbani does NOT do, and thus you have defamed your own Satguru Nanak who is the same Gobinda. Not only does Gurbani say, but vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji clarifies that Har Krishan is SATGURU for Dwapara Yuga. So who are you to cast aspersions and defame utterances of God-consciousness in Sri Bhagavad-Gita? Vaaran explicitly is telling that Vaheguru Gurmantra of Sikhs is remembering True Guru and Har of Dwapara Yuga Hari Krishna! So how is Lord Krishna being acknowledged as Sargun saroop of the nirguna a tragedy to claim full completion as Avataar Shabad-Jyot of the Nirguna shining in darkness of sansaara?

    Bhai Gurdaas ji also says Guru Nanak rejects Caste system but you didn’t care, now why are you using him here?:
    Here by the way he is saying as in different ages those guys were worshiped or made people worship them, same way in this age Satguru have made people to worship the real CREATOR, nothing more. If Guru ji considers these guys in million, how they can be import suddenly. Krishna boasts like ego inflicted person, have you seen or noticed any sroop of Guru Nanak boasting like that?
     
  13. pk70

    pk70
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2008
    Messages:
    1,582
    Likes Received:
    627
    Re: Q&A with Sant Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal

    If Gurbani is praising sarguna, who are you to call it "wrong teaching?
    Gurbani praises Sarguna? Well, Gurbani doesn’t say to worship it?
    So out of what mental gymnastics do people reject the very meaning of Naams of sargun God: Ramachandra, Harikrishan, Vishnu, Vasudeyva, Gobinda, Gopala, Jagannatha, Narayana, and make false claim that to "worship" the sarguna is wrong, only contemplate the uncomtemplatable nirguna?
    Gurbani repeatedly asks followers to contemplate on Nirguna, if Guru ji himself felt it was hard to contemplate on Nirguna, he would have advised to worship Sarguna, but he didn’t. Regarding the names you mention, they are in millions as per Gurbani.
    The very Vaheguru Gurmantra Naam of the Sikhs is PRAISE of the SARGUN NAAMS of the VISHNU AVATAARAS.
    So Mantra praises them, that is not true, Bhai Sahib says Guru Nanak did what they did in different times in different forms, no praise as you think. Just imagine, how they can be praised when Gurbani says there are like them in millions it is funny how you come to such funny conclusion

    Gurbani is clear, the God (nirguna) has manifested age to age as avataara. The God (nirguna) manifested as Har Krishan, and as Guru Nanak. So what in the world are you talking about veer ji? What false boasting about nirguna? What tragedy that you so falsely imply? How much closer to Guru Nanak Panth can Krishna get than to be called as the same lineage avataara as Guru Nanak Himself?
    Guru Nanak is not avatar of Vishnu, Vishnu and others are worshiped by others but they are not considered worth worshiping as they are counted in millions obviously that importance is not given, I already explained” calling in million” is not really a praise Bhain Ji

    They are ONE with Nirguna veer ji. They are ONE~ Guru Nanak Panth is same mission as Har Krishan.
    Krishna and Vishnu all have those unbelievable stories, not really any goal as Guru Nanak has, like Guru ji makes people worship HIM, the Nirguna, Krishna suddenly becomes Nirguna and ask Arjun to believe Him as Nirguna. Krishanqa cannot be compared to Guru Nanak in that prospective. Sanatna and Vashnava are fully compagning to make Nanak panth a Krishna panth, any rational person will laugh at their logic. Guru Nanak is the SUN, the other is just a moon. No comparation.
    They uphold the Dharma age to age, and set righteousness on it's throne again when it was falling down.
    I doubt if it is true if the stories of Guru Nanak and theirs are read.
     
  14. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2006
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    18
    Re: Q&A with Sant Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal


    ਦੂਜਾ ਮਾਰਿ ਮਨੁ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਣਾ ॥
    dhoojaa maar man sach samaanaa ||
    Subduing my sense of duality, my mind is absorbed into the True One.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਰਤੈ ਮਨ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਪਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੮॥੧੭॥੧੮॥
    naanak eaeko naam varathai man anthar gur parasaadhee paavaniaa ||8||17||18||
    O Nanak, the One Name is pervading deep within my mind; by Guru's Grace, I receive it. ||8||17||18||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 120



    ਛਿਅ ਘਰ ਛਿਅ ਗੁਰ ਛਿਅ ਉਪਦੇਸ ॥
    shhia ghar shhia gur shhia oupadhaes ||
    There are six schools of philosophy, six teachers, and six sets of teachings.

    ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸ ਅਨੇਕ ॥੧॥
    gur gur eaeko vaes anaek ||1||
    But the Teacher of teachers is the One, who appears in so many forms. ||1||

    ਬਾਬਾ ਜੈ ਘਰਿ ਕਰਤੇ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥
    baabaa jai ghar karathae keerath hoe ||
    O Baba: that system in which the Praises of the Creator are sung

    ਸੋ ਘਰੁ ਰਾਖੁ ਵਡਾਈ ਤੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    so ghar raakh vaddaaee thoe ||1|| rehaao ||
    -follow that system; in it rests true greatness. ||1||Pause||

    ਵਿਸੁਏ ਚਸਿਆ ਘੜੀਆ ਪਹਰਾ ਥਿਤੀ ਵਾਰੀ ਮਾਹੁ ਹੋਆ ॥
    visueae chasiaa gharreeaa peharaa thhithee vaaree maahu hoaa ||
    The seconds, minutes and hours, days, weeks and months,

    ਸੂਰਜੁ ਏਕੋ ਰੁਤਿ ਅਨੇਕ ॥
    sooraj eaeko ruth anaek ||
    and the various seasons originate from the one sun;
    ~SGGS Ji p. 12


    There is nowhere Gurbani is dividing out the nirguna from the sarguna like you claim. Gurbani isn't about 90% nirguna and a few tuuks sarguna like you say. Gurbani is very clearly saying the One nirguna is All-pervading Light shining everywhere.


    ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਹੋਏ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥
    kee kott hoeae avathaar ||
    Many millions are the divine incarnations.

    ਕਈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਕੀਨੋ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ ॥
    kee jugath keeno bisathhaar ||
    In so many ways, He has unfolded Himself.

    ਕਈ ਬਾਰ ਪਸਰਿਓ ਪਾਸਾਰ ॥
    kee baar pasariou paasaar ||
    So many times, He has expanded His expansion.

    ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਇਕੁ ਏਕੰਕਾਰ ॥
    sadhaa sadhaa eik eaekankaar ||
    Forever and ever, He is the One, the One Universal Creator.

    ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਕੀਨੇ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਤਿ ॥
    kee kott keenae bahu bhaath ||
    Many millions are created in various forms.

    ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੇ ਹੋਏ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਤਿ ॥
    prabh thae hoeae prabh maahi samaath ||
    From God they emanate, and into God they merge once again.

    ਤਾ ਕਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਨੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
    thaa kaa anth n jaanai koe ||
    His limits are not known to anyone.

    ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਇ ॥੭॥
    aapae aap naanak prabh soe ||7||
    Of Himself, and by Himself, O Nanak, God exists. ||7||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 276


    It's interesting that you quote:
    Jo sās girās ḏẖi*ā*ė mėrā har har so gursikẖ gurū man bẖāvai.

    Do you know what it means to meditate on God with every breath and morsel of food? Do you know why Gurbani relates japa with pranayama and morsels of food? What is the meaning of Sas Giras Simran? In yogic teaching, lifeforce breath pranayama, is spiritual food. To digest is to partake of the vibration of God, Gurmantra.


    The Chandogya Upanishad (6.5.4; 6.6.1,2,5) tells us: “Mind consists of food. That which is the subtle part of milk moves upward when the milk is churned and becomes butter. In the same manner, the subtle part of the food that is eaten moves upward and becomes mind. Thus, mind consists of food.”


    The Vedas say that mortals eat food with Apana, while the Gods eat food with Prana. The mortals are the physical tissues. The immortals are the senses. These take in food via Prana itself. Right food sustains Apana. The Secret of Prana


    Without knowledge of the yogic background of sas giras simran, Sikhs have largely forgotten esoteric meanings such as japping Naam Gurmantara with every breath and morsel of food. It just becomes words without meaning, or some claim of metaphor without awareness there is an ancient and actual yogic practice related to those words.


    Even the name of God as Har/Hari represents Vishnu and Krishna
    Harimandir Sahib was historically known as Vishnu temple and included murtis of deva/devtis until reform of Singh Sabha. This is the origin and meaning of Naam of God as Har. Gur Bilas Patshahi (written in 1718) claims Hari Mandir was built as a mandir of Vishnu, and Guru Arjun Dev never went inside because of the sanctity of the presence of Lord Vishnu in the mandir. So not only does the Sanskrit Naam match but there even exists an early Sikh historical account which claims Hari Mandir was originally Vishnu Mandir, and NOT solely as nirguna mandir as modernly conceived. Just as the tuuk of Gurbani you quoted calling God as Har does not negate in any way sargun saroop, but is in fact, the very Naam of sarguna.
     
  15. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2006
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    18
    Re: Q&A with Sant Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal

    Bhai Gurdas Ji doesn't say anywhere that Guru rejected the caste system. YOU said Bhai Gurdas Ji said this. That is YOUR interpretation of Bhai Gurdas. Bhai Gurdas Ji said the same thing that Vaishnava Purana says... to the God, the person of any caste who is devoted to God is the real brahmin. As the Vedas say, the Varna is decided by temperament, not by heredity. Prem Sumarag states explicitly that the Sikhs were united as the caste of Khatri-Sodhi after Guru Ram Das Ji. To say all the castes are one to the God and Guru is not to say the castes do not exist. Is not to say that Guru abolished the caste system. It is to say what it says, spiritually, all castes are equal. So why build a huge drama out of a few words? It would be clear that if Guruji abolished the caste system in the way that you claim, it would be unequivocally stated in Guru Granth Sahib Ji itself, and not as some lone tuuk somewhere in vaaran. So it is my understanding that you have built a major opinion on a small foundation of single tuuk of vaaran which does not even support your contention.

    I cite Bhai Gurdas Ji because he IS authoritative in helping to interpret Gurbani. NOT because I agree with your interpretations.


    ਸੂਖਮ ਮਹਿ ਜਾਨੈ ਅਸਥੂਲੁ ॥
    sookham mehi jaanai asathhool ||
    In the unmanifest, he sees the manifest world to exist.

    ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਦੇ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ॥
    chahu varanaa ko dhae oupadhaes ||
    He gives instruction to people of all castes and social classes.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਉਸੁ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਕਉ ਸਦਾ ਅਦੇਸੁ ॥੪॥
    naanak ous panddith ko sadhaa adhaes ||4||
    O Nanak, to such a Pandit, I bow in salutation forever. ||4||

    ਬੀਜ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਸਰਬ ਕੋ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥
    beej manthra sarab ko giaan ||
    The Beej Mantra, the Seed Mantra, is spiritual wisdom for everyone.

    ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਮਹਿ ਜਪੈ ਕੋਊ ਨਾਮੁ ॥
    chahu varanaa mehi japai kooo naam ||
    Anyone, from any class, may chant the Naam.

    ਜੋ ਜੋ ਜਪੈ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥
    jo jo japai this kee gath hoe ||
    Whoever chants it, is emancipated.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 274


    In agreement with vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji which you cited, the Gurbani says spiritual liberation and recitation of the Naam is open to all castes. Nowhere does Gurbani say castes do not exist, or that Guru Nanak abolished the caste system. These are radically different things.


    ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਾਝਾ ॥
    khathree braahaman soodh vais oupadhaes chahu varanaa ko saajhaa ||
    The four castes - the Kh'shaatriyas, Brahmins, Soodras and Vaishyas - are equal in respect to the teachings.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 747


    Why does Gurbani not clearly say, the castes do not exist, they are ritualistic superstition of the Hindus. Guruji has cleared the cobwebs from our minds. Castes are abolished all are equal? Instead, Gurbani agrees on every point with Vaishnav reformers that caste system is no bar to spirituality, yet caste system remains a part of the social order, while corrupted modernly because of the degenerating eras, original Vedic definition of caste-varna applies as a system ordained by God.



    ਸੋ ਐਸਾ ਹਰਿ ਸਭਨਾ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਵਲਿ ਹੈ ਤਿਨਿ ਸਭਿ ਵਰਨ ਚਾਰੇ ਖਾਣੀ ਸਭ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਗੋਲੇ ਕਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਅਗੈ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਵਣ ਕਉ ਦੀਏ ॥
    so aisaa har sabhanaa kaa prabh sathigur kai val hai thin sabh varan chaarae khaanee sabh srisatt golae kar sathigur agai kaar kamaavan ko dheeeae ||
    Such is God, the Lord of all; He is on the True Guru's side. All castes and social classes, the four sources of creation, and the whole universe are slaves of the True Guru; God makes them work for Him.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 851



    ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਚਾਰਿ ਆਸ੍ਰਮ ਹਹਿ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਵੈ ਸੋ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ॥
    braahaman khathree soodh vais chaar varan chaar aasram hehi jo har dhhiaavai so paradhhaan ||
    There are four castes: Brahmin, Kh'shaatriya, Soodra and Vaishya, and there are four stages of life. One who meditates on the Lord, is the most distinguished and renowned.

    ਜਿਉ ਚੰਦਨ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਵਸੈ ਹਿਰਡੁ ਬਪੁੜਾ ਤਿਉ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਪਤਿਤ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥੩॥
    jio chandhan nikatt vasai hiradd bapurraa thio sathasangath mil pathith paravaan ||3||
    The poor castor oil plant, growing near the sandalwood tree, becomes fragrant; in the same way, the sinner, associating with the Saints, becomes acceptable and approved. ||3

    ਓਹੁ ਸਭ ਤੇ ਊਚਾ ਸਭ ਤੇ ਸੂਚਾ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਵਸਿਆ ਭਗਵਾਨੁ ॥
    ouhu sabh thae oochaa sabh thae soochaa jaa kai hiradhai vasiaa bhagavaan ||
    He, within whose heart the Lord abides, is the highest of all, and the purest of all.
    ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਿਸ ਕੇ ਚਰਨ ਪਖਾਲੈ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਜਨੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਜਾਤਿ ਸੇਵਕਾਣੁ ॥੪॥੪॥
    jan naanak this kae charan pakhaalai jo har jan neech jaath saevakaan ||4||4||
    Servant Nanak washes the feet of thM at humble servant of the Lord; he may be from a low class family, but he is now the Lord's servant. ||4||4||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 861


    [​IMG]
    Medicine Wheel of the indigenous Native American tribes representing the original varna root races of man and their different but equal qualities.
    Universal and ancient truth.



    Anyway, as to our previous discussion:


    ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ॥
    breham giaanee aap nirankaar ||
    The God-conscious being is himself the Formless Lord.

    ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੀ ਸੋਭਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਬਨੀ ॥
    breham giaanee kee sobhaa breham giaanee banee ||
    The glory of the God-conscious being belongs to the God-conscious being alone.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਰਬ ਕਾ ਧਨੀ ॥੮॥੮॥
    naanak breham giaanee sarab kaa dhhanee ||8||8||
    O Nanak, the God-conscious being is the Lord of all. ||8||8||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 276

    If Krishna proclaims God-consciousness in Bhagavad-Gita He is the Supreme Lord God, and Gurbani acknowledges Him as Satguru of Dwapara Yuga and avataara of the Supreme Lord God, who are you to attack His claims as "boasting" and insult as being far away from Guru Nanak Panth? You do not even know what Guru Nanak Panth is, when clearly Gurbani says Guru Nanak Himself is Satguru and avataar for Kaliyuga after Krishna and that the Lord has come into the world as both.
     
  16. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2006
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    18
    Re: Q&A with Sant Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal

    Why does Gurbani so many times say niragun saragun? Clearly because they are aspects of the One totality. One is not over the other. One is hidden, and one is perceived.



    Can you explain WHY Gurbani PRAISES the Avataaras and sargun saroop of Vishnu as the Supreme Lord God if what you claim is really true? If what you say is correct, then nothing like praise of the forms of avtaara should be anywhere near Gurbani.


    Explain:


    ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥
    achuth paarabreham paramaesur antharajaamee ||
    The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.

    ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥
    madhhusoodhan dhaamodhar suaamee ||
    He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master.

    ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥
    rikheekaes govaradhhan dhhaaree muralee manohar har rangaa ||1||
    The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1||

    ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
    mohan maadhhav kirasa muraarae ||
    The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego.

    ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥
    jagadheesur har jeeo asur sanghaarae ||
    The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons.

    ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥
    jagajeevan abinaasee thaakur ghatt ghatt vaasee hai sangaa ||2||
    The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2||

    ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
    dhharaneedhhar ees narasingh naaraaein ||
    The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

    ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥
    dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||
    The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.

    ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥
    baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||
    O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

    ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
    sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
    You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

    ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥
    banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||
    Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.

    ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥
    sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4||
    You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4||

    ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥
    bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||
    You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

    ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥
    gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||
    The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

    ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥
    baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||
    O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5||

    ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
    mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||
    Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

    ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥
    dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||
    Savior of Dropadi's honor.

    ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥
    kamalaakanth karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||
    Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

    ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥
    amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||
    The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.

    ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥
    akaal moorath jis kadhae naahee kho ||
    His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

    ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥
    abinaasee abigath agochar sabh kishh thujh hee hai lagaa ||7||
    O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7||

    ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥
    sreerang baikunth kae vaasee ||
    The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.

    ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥
    mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||
    By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

    ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥
    kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||
    The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8||

    ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
    niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||
    He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

    ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
    dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||
    He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

    ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
    saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
    He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

    ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥
    banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||
    He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

    ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥
    sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||
    His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

    ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
    sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
    He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

    ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥
    peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
    The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

    ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥
    jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
    The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.

    ਸਾਰਿੰਗਧਰ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਬੀਠੁਲਾ ਮੈ ਗਣਤ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਸਰਬੰਗਾ ॥੧੧॥
    saaringadhhar bhagavaan beethulaa mai ganath n aavai sarabangaa ||11||
    The Archer who draws the bow, the Beloved Lord God; I cannot count all His limbs. ||11||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1082​




    Who is the four-armed Lord who holds the conch, the warclub, the chakra? It is the same "He" who is the Light which all these avataaras come from. It is Maha-Vishnu. Reading the pauri above, calling as beautiful, immaculate, transcendant, eternal, liberator of sins, savior of honor, miraculous, imperishable, wondrous, Lord of Maya, Liberator, miracle-worker, Lover of devotees, Creator...certainly sounds like PRAISE! And it certainly sounds like a blending of characteristics of saragun and niragun. It is unquestionably praising the being called "God." Yet God is described clearly as Vishnu and the Vishnu avataars. Why is this? If what you claim is true, then this whole pauri shouldn't even be in Gurbani. But it is, in fact, GURUBANI! So Guru Himself contradicts you.


    [​IMG]
    Undeniable that the four-armed God described in Gurbani who holds chakra, conch shell and war mace... is none other than Vishnu. Gurbani is also describing Him as Master of the three worlds (Pakriti), Lord of beautiful forms and Creator God, Lord of the universe, destroyer of demons. How can this be? Why is this pauri in Gurbani veer ji? It contradicts everything you say.


    ਬਬਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਜਾਨਤ ਤੇ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ॥
    babaa breham jaanath thae brehamaa ||
    BABBA: One who knows God is a Brahmin.

    ਬੈਸਨੋ ਤੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੁਚ ਧਰਮਾ ॥
    baisano thae guramukh such dhharamaa ||
    A Vaishnaav is one who, as Gurmukh, lives the righteous life of Dharma.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 258​



     
  17. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2006
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    18
    Re: Q&A with Sant Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal

    That's not at all what it says. That's what YOU say it says. Gurbani says HE, the nirgun Lord God came as Raam, as Krishan, as Guru Nanak. These avataaras are called the Great Guru unchanging and permanent. Gurbani also clearly says praises are sung of Guru Nanak. Guru Nanak is sarguna.



    ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥
    sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||
    In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

    ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
    thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||
    In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

    ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥
    dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||
    In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

    ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥
    ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||
    You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

    ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
    kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||
    In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

    ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥
    sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||
    The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||

    ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਵਿਦਾਸੁ ਭਗਤੁ ਜੈਦੇਵ ਤ੍ਰਿਲੋਚਨ ॥
    gun gaavai ravidhaas bhagath jaidhaev thrilochan ||
    His Glorious Praises are sung by the devotees Ravi Daas, Jai Dayv and Trilochan.

    ਨਾਮਾ ਭਗਤੁ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਸਦਾ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਮ ਲੋਚਨ ॥
    naamaa bhagath kabeer sadhaa gaavehi sam lochan ||
    The devotees Naam Dayv and Kabeer praise Him continually, knowing Him to be even-eyed.

    ਭਗਤੁ ਬੇਣਿ ਗੁਣ ਰਵੈ ਸਹਜਿ ਆਤਮ ਰੰਗੁ ਮਾਣੈ ॥
    bhagath baen gun ravai sehaj aatham rang maanai ||
    The devotee Baynee sings His Praises; He intuitively enjoys the ecstasy of the soul.

    ਜੋਗ ਧਿਆਨਿ ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨਿ ਬਿਨਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ॥
    jog dhhiaan gur giaan binaa prabh avar n jaanai ||
    He is the Master of Yoga and meditation, and the spiritual wisdom of the Guru; He knows none other except God.

    ਸੁਖਦੇਉ ਪਰੀਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਤੁ ਗੁਣ ਰਵੈ ਗੋਤਮ ਰਿਖਿ ਜਸੁ ਗਾਇਓ ॥
    sukhadhaeo pareekhyath gun ravai gotham rikh jas gaaeiou ||
    Sukh Dayv and Preekhyat sing His Praises, and Gautam the rishi sings His Praise.

    ਕਬਿ ਕਲ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਨਿਤ ਨਵਤਨੁ ਜਗਿ ਛਾਇਓ ॥੮॥
    kab kal sujas naanak gur nith navathan jag shhaaeiou ||8||
    Says KAL the poet, the ever-fresh praises of Guru Nanak are spread throughout the world. ||8||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1390



    Oh really? Then how can you jap Naam Gurmantra without Naams of Krishna and Raam? Obviously the Vaheguru Gurmantara is the guidance Guruji has given us. And Vaheguru Gurmantara is beej syllables of Krishna and Raam. How do you explain this contradiction between what YOU say, and what Gurbani and vaaran both say? Answer is, there is no Vaheguru without Krishan and Raam. Without Vaheguru Gurmantra to jap, where is the boat of mukti for a Sikh? It is NOT in the niraguna. Mukti rests in the saraguna. The boat which leads to the merging with nirguna has to come out of sargun manifestation, such as Guru, Shabad-Jyoti, Gurbani, and Naam.
     
  18. pk70

    pk70
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2008
    Messages:
    1,582
    Likes Received:
    627
    Re: Q&A with Sant Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal

    Oh really? Then how can you jap Naam Gurmantra without Naams of Krishna and Raam?
    About these guys you are referring to, you already admitted in your previous posts to be Maya inflicted, so we don’t remember them while contemplating on Him, Our Ram, Muraar is not Ram Chandar of Ayudhya, neither that Krishna of Gopis. Our Ram Murar” sarbh raheea bharpoor”. This argument clearly shows that Sanatan guys now suddenly have started dreaming to make theses guys Sikhs Guru and Devta, we don’t accept them at all because there were like them in million , it was told numerous times (you you have your purpose keep saying it), Guru ji count them as His creation, and He created like these( who are like in your imaginary pictures) in millions, Obviously with no importance. Just admit they are gone, crying, deceiving.
    And it certainly sounds like a blending of characteristics of saragun and niragun. It is unquestionably praising the being called "God." Yet God is described clearly as Vishnu and the Vishnu avataars. Why is this? If what you claim is true, then this whole pauri shouldn't even be in Gurbani. But it is, in fact, GURUBANI! So Guru Himself contradicts you.
    GURU JI IS CRYTAL CLEAR, OTHERS ARE JUST TRYING TO DISTORT GURU MESSAGE, I EXPLAINED MANY TIMES, IF ONE CARES TO LISTEN, ONLY THEN EXPLAINING IS NECESSARY,YOU ALREADY PROVED BHAIN JI YOU CAN IGNORE GURU BACHAN AND PICK UP FROM HERE AND THERE, YOU ARE NOT ADMITTING THAT LIKE THEM GOD CREATED IN MILLION, IT IS GURU BACHAN BUT YOU DON’T CARE, YOU COPY AND PASTE. OLD STORY, GETTING TOO OLD NOW

    Who is the four-armed Lord who holds the conch, the warclub, the chakra? It is the same "He" who is the Light which all these avataaras come from. It is Maha-Vishnu. Reading the pauri above, calling as beautiful, immaculate, transcendant, eternal, liberator of sins, savior of honor, miraculous, imperishable, wondrous, Lord of Maya, Liberator, miracle-worker, Lover of devotees, Creator...certainly sounds like PRAISE!
    It seems, very funny., you also see from far away the earth and sky meet but that is not the reality. Let those guys enjoy their own dreams, Sikhs are shown clear path” jappo EKKO NAAM”
    Nirgun does all, made them destroyed them, all actions are credited to HIM, Guru ji that’s is why says” jassi avai KHASM kee bani tasra kree giaan ve laalo” All is HIS play. About these guys Guru ji are very clear” kete Ram Raheem” Kishn bishan kabhi n dheeao..”
    ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੈ ਗਰਬੁ ਕੀਆ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨਿਆ ਬੇਦ ਕੀ ਬਿਪਤਿ ਪੜੀ ਪਛੁਤਾਨਿਆ ਜਹ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਿਮਰੇ ਤਹੀ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ
    Gauri 1st Guru. Brahma indulged in ego, and he understood not the Lord. Faced with the calamity of the loss of Vedas, he did repent. Whoever remembers the Lord, his soul is propitiated.

    You see, this is what they come down to, so we just don’t believe or think about them, you got good chance, keep posting these imaginary pictures, I don’t care, my Guru speaks clearly about them
    Here is where followers of the guys, you are posting in pictures ,are stuck

    ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਵੇਦੁ ਪੜੈ ਵਾਦੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਤਾਮਸੁ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਤਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਾਏ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ
    Gauri 3rd Guru. Man reads Vedas compiled by Brahma and narrated strifes. Within him is wrath, and he understands not his ownself. If he recites Guru-bani then alone, he attains to the Lord.
    And here is what Sikhs are enjoying

    ਪੂਰੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮੇਟੇ ਚਉਥੈ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਆ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਉਮੈ ਮਾਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ
    The Perfect True Guru has preached his sermon, wherewith the three moods are effaced and man's mind is attached with the fourth one. Nanak, dispelling his pride he is merged with the Supreme Lord.
    All your quotes, as said before, are not saying for what you are beating the drum Bhain jio. 75 % your quotes are same which were answered and explained. I cannot believe a line what you are preaching here Bhain ji. We are happy with Guru Nanak, he is our every thing, our world, we dont have time to reconsider those stars of mist. Sun rose, every thing got clear. Thanks Guru Nanak ji, Oh Guru!you have saved us from this hell like illusions. !!!!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2006
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    18

    Sarguna is just a pronunciation difference in Punjabi from original Sanskrit. Saguna means the Brahman with attributes. Nirguna means without attributes. Both definitions are talking about the Supreme Brahman or Parabrahm, which in the Vaishnav tradition is regarded as Maha-Vishnu, and in the Shaiva sutras regarded as Maheshvara. These are descriptions of different Primary aspects of the Uncreated Formless One. Sargun or sagun dhyaan simply means concentration on a form or perceivable aspect of limitless, infinite God. Again, you cannot concentrate on what is imperceivable to you.

    Nirguna makes Himself manifest to us by taking form, such as embodiment as an avataar. An avataar is an embodiment of the nirgun God. An avataar is NOT the same thing as a demi-god. Gurbani refers to the yuga avataars as Guru for the age. Gurbani calls Guruji an avataar. So we see clearly this distinction between avataar/Guru and demi-god.
    The problem arises when people have been trained to think that any mention of a Hindu deva automatically refers to the demi-gods. So a distinction is philosophically made when speaking of Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh because those are demi-gods associated with the creation of sansaara, and whose qualities match pakriti of the three gunas, and hence the egotism of the sansaara, bondage to Maya and Time, and duality.

    So if someone mentions Brahm, the distinction needs to be made Brahman or Parabrahm, versus Brahma. Only most Sikhs are not familiar with Vaishnav philosophy refering to Vishnu as the true form of Parabrahm. So hearing the Name Vishnu, immediately equate with the demi-god. In Vaishnavism, Vishnu is equated with Parabrahm as Narain. When Gurbani speaks of Narain, we all know it refers to Parabrahm. But the correct useage is not Brahman. Narain relates to the Supreme aspect of formless Maha-Vishnu. So many Sikhs still do not realize there are different schools of philosophy which call the God. In similar manner, Gurbani calls the Supreme Lord as Jagannath. Jagannath also refers to an aspect of the Supreme formless Narain, Maha-Vishnu, and not to those schools which call after Parabrahm or Maheshvara.

    Again following Vaishnav tradition, there is believed to be at least a thousand names for Bhagavan, the Supreme Lord. All these names describe are different qualities of the One. Parabrahm nondual and infinite; Govinda defender of the land and beings; Maha-Vishnu All-pervading Light; Maheshvara the Primal consciousness. The trimurthi Maha-devas are personifications of the primary elements of creation, birth, death, preservation. Again, simply elements of the All-pervading One. Which is why it is explained everything that exists is subsumed into the nirguna, because on a higher level, everything is the One. But in our world of sansaar, duality exists. And pretending to know about duality doesn't free the kalps of mind from dualistic thinking. Because we have duality consciousness, we need to approach the formless God through some aspect of His form. Until we are cleared from duality consciousness, we can't even perceive correctly the All-pervading Oneness, so how can we meditate on what we can't correctly perceive?

    I have no idea why Sikhs have these notions that niragun is superior and all the sargun avtaars are inferior. Even thinking Sikh Guruji is some kind of "enlightened human," and not accepting the Gurbani which describes His God-consciousness, merging, avataarhood, and calling as the Transcendant Lord. Sikhs modernly don't have a real good conception of sarguna. If someone writes Vishnu avataars, they immediately equate with Vishnu of the three gunas as demi-God and not as Naam for the All-Pervading Light. What do you think Sikh Guru is? He is Paramjyoti, avatar of the All-pervading Light which manifests itself. What other light is there? The entire Gurbani defines the universe, spiritual tradition, spiritual teaching and concepts within the larger sanatan Dharam framework. These Naams and descriptions "work" in Gurbani because they have profound and deep philosophical implications.

    It's because Sikhs are allergic to names of Hindu devas that gyrations have to be done to acknowledge but deny at the same time... "Yeah, they're in Gurbani but they're meaningless to us." Or, "they may be sargun saroop but we don't worship them, we only focus on the nirguna!" And these gyrations are so full of error because they stem from basic lack of understanding of the primary definitions and meanings themselves, as if these descriptions of Divine qualities related to egotistical personalities who compete with the actual Real God named Nirguna. So it creates a fallacious argument of a One True Islamic style God who competes for worship against the false gods, with little tolerance. Gurbani doesn't have this kind of dichotomy. Over and over Gurbani says the "One God is pervading in All, all is His play." "He is the Krishna, He is the gopis, He is the river Jamuna."

    So immediately rushing to equate the yuga avataars in Gurbani with (presumed false and intolerable) demi-gods such as Shiva, Ganesh, Hanuman, is a mistake of understanding. The avataaras are NOT demi-gods. The avataars are what the Guru is. This has been made very clear. The avataars are the descent of Paramjyoti into sansaara, which is the exact same definition as Gu-ru, the Light which shines in darkness. And this is why the avataars have been described in Gurbani as True Guru for the specific age. If Gurbani is calling Har Krishan Satguru for Dwapara Yuga, why are Sikhs trying to make Krishan equal to Shiva and call Him egotistical and boasting and "falsely proclaiming Himself to be God-conscious, merged with nirguna?"

    But even careful study of Gurbani fails to reflect a basis for these modern Sikh attitudes of allergy to the devas and avtaaras. In multiple places Gurbani and vaaran equates them with the One Divine Lord, Parabrahm.



    ਅੰਬਰੀਕ ਮੁਹਿ ਵਰਤੁ ਹੈ ਰਾਤਿ ਪਈ ਦੁਰਬਾਸਾ ਆਇਆ ।
    anbareek muhi varatu hai raati paee durabaasaa aaiaa|
    One evening while king Ambaris was fasting he was visited by sage Durvasa

    ਭੀੜਾ ਓਸੁ ਉਪਾਰਣਾ ਓਹੁ ਉਠਿ ਨ੍ਹਾਵਣਿ ਨਦੀ ਸਿਧਾਇਆ ।
    bheerhaa aosu upaaranaa aohu utdi nhaavani nadee sidhaaiaa|
    The king was to break his fast while serving Durvasa but the rishi went to the riverbank to take a bath.

    ਚਰਣੋਦਕੁ ਲੈ ਪੋਖਿਆ ਓਹੁ ਸਰਾਪੁ ਦੇਣ ਨੋ ਧਾਇਆ ।
    charanodaku|ai pokhiaa aohu saraapu dayn no dhaaiaa|
    Fearing the change of date (which would deem his fast fruitless), the king broke his fast by drinking the water which he had poured on the feet of the rishi.
    When the rishi realised that the king had not served him first, he ran to curse the king.

    ਚਕ੍ਰ ਸੁਦਰਸਨੁ ਕਾਲ ਰੂਪ ਹੋਇ ਭੀਹਾਵਲੁ ਗਰਬੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ।
    chakr sudarasanu kaal roop hoi bheehaavalu garabu gavaaiaa|
    On this, Vishnu ordered his death like disc to move towards Durvasa and thus the ego of Durvasa was removed.

    ਬਾਮ੍ਹਣੁ ਭੰਨਾ ਜੀਉ ਲੈ ਰਖਿ ਨ ਹੰਘਨਿ ਦੇਵ ਸਬਾਇਆ ।
    baamhanu bhannaa jeeu|ai rakhi n hanghani dayv sabaaiaa|
    Now Brahmin Durvasa ran for his life. Even the gods and deities could not afford him shelter.

    ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਲੋਕੁ ਸਿਵ ਲੋਕੁ ਤਜਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਲੋਕੁ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਤਜਾਇਆ ।
    indr|oku siv|oku taji braham|oku baikuntd tajaaiaa|
    He was avoided in the abodes of Indra, Siva, Brahma and the heavens.

    ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਭਗਵਾਨੁ ਸਣੁ ਸਿਖਿ ਦੇਇ ਸਭਨਾਂ ਸਮਝਾਇਆ ।
    dayvatiaan bhagavaanu sanu sikhi dayi sabhanaan samajhaaiaa|
    Gods and God made him understand (that none except Ambaris could save him).

    ਆਇ ਪਇਆ ਸਰਣਾਗਤੀ ਮਾਰੀਦਾ ਅੰਬਰੀਕ ਛੁਡਾਇਆ ।
    aai paiaa saranaagatee maareedaa anbareek chhudaaiaa|
    Then he surrendered before Ambaris and Ambaris saved the dying sage.

    ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਜਗਿ ਬਿਰਦੁ ਸਦਾਇਆ ॥੪॥
    bhagati vachhalu jagi biradu sadaaiaa ॥4॥
    The Lord God came to be known in the world as benevolent to devotees.
    ~Vaar 10 Pauri 4 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji



    Gurbani says that Rama Chandra and Har Krishan are yuga avataars like Guruji and also calls them Satguru for the respective ages. It does cross the mind that if this were not the case, then it could be believed Sikhism is another "One True Faith," with no one able to obtain mukti unless they become a Sikh of the "only" Satguru, Satguru Nanak. And as this would require conversion in order to have the only Satguru the world has ever known, and the only scriptures with power to describe the ony truth, Sikhi would become something else entirely and have a basis for intolerance of other gods, other Gurus and other spiritual teachings. But Gurbani says differently. Gurbani acknowledges the 10 Vishnu yuga avataars AS Guru. This can only mean that Bhagavad-Gita isn't idle boasting. It is bani for the age of Dwapara yuga just as Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is bani for Kaliyuga. And this means someone doesn't have to become a "Sikh" to obtain liberation. A disciple ("sikh") of Haree Krishan who meditates on Bhagavata has the true path of mukti. It is also based on Bhagkti, Naam japna, Simran and dhyaan, seva and spiritual equality among the castes. So Gurbani teaching is such profound tolerance of other Guru's from preceding ages as to equate them as the same as Guru, from the same nirgun God. Where in Gurbani is anything bad spoken about Bhagavad-Gita that Sikhs being ignorant of their own Gurbani teaching about Har Krishna as a yuga avataar and Satguru for Dwapara yuga have any basis to call Him fake and egotistical and deluded? It is modern Sikhs who are deluded who contradict their own Gurbani. To support this view of spiritual relationship between Raam and Krishan avataars and Guruji, these tuuks of Gurbani suddenly become clear:



    ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਆਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਵੈ ॥
    gur saevaa aap har bhaavai ||
    Service to the Guru is pleasing to the Lord Himself.

    ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਬਲਭਦ੍ਰੁ ਗੁਰ ਪਗ ਲਗਿ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥
    kirasan balabhadhra gur pag lag dhhiaavai ||
    Even Krishna and Balbhadar meditated on the Lord, falling at the Guru's Feet.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਤਰਾਵੈ ॥੪॥੫॥੪੩॥
    naanak guramukh har aap tharaavai ||4||5||43||
    O Nanak, the Lord Himself saves the Gurmukhs. ||4||5||43||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 165​


    Clearly Gurbani is calling Krishna a Gurmukh who is surrendered to Guruji's feet. If Krishna is described as a Gurumukh in Gurbani, why do Sikhs say He is NOT merged with nirguna, but only egotistically boasting in a false way?



    ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਮੋਖ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕਿਉ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
    gur bin mokh mukath kio paaeeai ||
    Without the Guru, how can anyone be emancipated or liberated?

    ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਿਉ ਧਿਆਈਐ ॥
    bin gur raam naam kio dhhiaaeeai ||
    Without the Guru, how can anyone meditate on the Lord's Name?

    ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਲੇਹੁ ਤਰਹੁ ਭਵ ਦੁਤਰੁ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਭਏ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੯॥
    guramath laehu tharahu bhav dhuthar mukath bheae sukh paaeiaa ||9||
    Accepting the Guru's Teachings, cross over the arduous, terrifying world-ocean; you shall be emancipated, and find peace. ||9||

    ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨਿ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੇ ॥
    guramath kirasan govaradhhan dhhaarae ||
    Through the Guru's Teachings, Krishna lifted up the mountain of Govardhan.

    ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਇਰਿ ਪਾਹਣ ਤਾਰੇ ॥
    guramath saaeir paahan thaarae ||
    Through the Guru's Teachings, Rama floated stones across the ocean.

    ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਲੇਹੁ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਭਰਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਇਆ ॥੧੦॥
    guramath laehu param padh paaeeai naanak gur bharam chukaaeiaa ||10||
    Accepting the Guru's Teachings, the supreme status is obtained; O Nanak, the Guru eradicates doubt. ||10||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1041​




    Here again, we see Gurbani expressly telling that both Raam and Krishna accomplished what they did, BECAUSE of working together WITH the Guru's teachings. So they are clearly shown as working with the power of God and on the proper spiritual path. How can any Sikh equate them with something bad, something fake, something false?



    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨੁ ਨਿਸਤਾਰੇ ॥
    guramukh madhhusoodhan nisathaarae ||
    The Gurmukhs are emancipated by the Lord.

    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੰਗੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
    guramukh sangee kirasan muraarae ||
    The Lord Krishna becomes the Gurmukh's Companion.

    ਦਇਆਲ ਦਮੋਦਰੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਹੋਰਤੁ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਭਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
    dhaeiaal dhamodhar guramukh paaeeai horath kithai n bhaathee jeeo ||2||
    The Gurmukh finds the Merciful Lord. He is not found any other way. ||2||

    ਨਿਰਹਾਰੀ ਕੇਸਵ ਨਿਰਵੈਰਾ ॥
    nirehaaree kaesav niravairaa ||
    He does not need to eat; His Hair is Wondrous and Beautiful; He is free of hate.

    ਕੋਟਿ ਜਨਾ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਪੈਰਾ ॥
    kott janaa jaa kae poojehi pairaa ||
    Millions of people worship His Feet.

    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਈ ਭਗਤੁ ਇਕਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥
    guramukh hiradhai jaa kai har har soee bhagath eikaathee jeeo ||3||
    He alone is a devotee, who becomes Gurmukh, whose heart is filled with the Lord, Har, Har. ||3|
    ~SGGS Ji p. 98



    One of the traditional titles of Krishna is "the Lord of beautiful hair," Keshava. So Gurbani equates Krishna as a disciple, as a Guru, as merged with the Divine and as the Transcendant Lord Himself. Exactly in the same way Gurbani describes Guru Nanak Dev Ji.



    ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥
    eaek kirasanan sarab dhaevaa dhaev dhaevaa th aathamaa ||
    The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul.

    ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥੪॥
    aathamaa baasudhaevasiy jae ko jaanai bhaeo || naanak thaa kaa dhaas hai soee niranjan dhaeo ||4||
    Nanak is a slave to anyone who understands this mystery of the all-pervading Lord; he himself is the Immaculate Divine Lord. ||4||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 469



    ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨਾ ਤੇ ਜਾਨਊ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਚੰਤੀ ਨਾਚਨਾ ॥੧॥
    kirasaa thae jaanoo har har naachanthee naachanaa ||1||
    Know that, through Krishna, the Lord, Har, Har, the dance of creation dances. ||1||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 693




    ਸੰਤਾਂ ਮਧੇ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਆਛੈ ਗੋਕਲ ਮਧੇ ਸਿਆਮ ਗੋ ॥
    santhaan madhhae gobindh aashhai gokal madhhae siaam go ||
    The Lord of the Universe, Govind, is within His Saints; Krishna, Shyaam, is in Gokal.

    ਨਾਮੇ ਮਧੇ ਰਾਮੁ ਆਛੈ ਰਾਮ ਸਿਆਮ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗੋ ॥੪॥੩॥
    naamae madhhae raam aashhai raam siaam gobindh go ||4||3||
    The Lord, Raam, is in Naam Dayv. So here they are: Raam, Shyaam, Govind. ||4||3||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 718




    ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਕਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਨਿ ਆਪੇ ਗਊ ਚਰਾਹਾ ॥
    aapae gopee kaan hai piaaraa ban aapae goo charaahaa ||
    The Beloved Himself is the milk-maid and Krishna; He Himself herds the cows in the woods.

    ਆਪੇ ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਵੰਸੁ ਵਜਾਹਾ ॥
    aapae saaval sundharaa piaaraa aapae vans vajaahaa ||
    The Beloved Himself is the blue-skinned, handsome one; He Himself plays on His flute.

    ਕੁਵਲੀਆ ਪੀੜੁ ਆਪਿ ਮਰਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪਿ ਪਚਾਹਾ ॥੨॥
    kuvaleeaa peerr aap maraaeidhaa piaaraa kar baalak roop pachaahaa ||2||
    The Beloved Himself took the form of a child, and destroyed Kuwalia-peer, the mad elephant. ||2||

    ਆਪਿ ਅਖਾੜਾ ਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਆਪਿ ਚੋਜਾਹਾ ॥
    aap akhaarraa paaeidhaa piaaraa kar vaekhai aap chojaahaa ||
    The Beloved Himself sets the stage; He performs the plays, and He Himself watches them.

    ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਚੰਡੂਰੁ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੁ ਮਾਰਾਹਾ ॥
    kar baalak roop oupaaeidhaa piaaraa chanddoor kans kaes maaraahaa ||
    The Beloved Himself assumed the form of the child, and killed the demons Chandoor, Kansa and Kaysee.

    ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਲੁ ਭੰਨੈ ਮੂਰਖ ਮੁਗਧਾਹਾ ॥੩॥
    aapae hee bal aap hai piaaraa bal bhannai moorakh mugadhhaahaa ||3||
    The Beloved Himself, by Himself, is the embodiment of power; He shatters the power of the fools and idiots. ||3||

    ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਵਸਿ ਆਪੇ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਹਥਾਹਾ ॥
    sabh aapae jagath oupaaeidhaa piaaraa vas aapae jugath hathhaahaa ||
    The Beloved Himself created the whole world. In His hands He holds the power of the ages.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 606




    ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥
    achuth paarabreham paramaesur antharajaamee ||
    The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.

    ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥
    madhhusoodhan dhaamodhar suaamee ||
    He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master.

    ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥
    rikheekaes govaradhhan dhhaaree muralee manohar har rangaa ||1||
    The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1||

    ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
    mohan maadhhav kirasa muraarae ||
    The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego.

    ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥
    jagadheesur har jeeo asur sanghaarae ||
    The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons.

    ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥
    jagajeevan abinaasee thaakur ghatt ghatt vaasee hai sangaa ||2||
    The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2||

    ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
    dhharaneedhhar ees narasingh naaraaein ||
    The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

    ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥
    dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||
    The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.

    ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥
    baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||
    O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

    ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
    sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
    You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

    ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥
    banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||
    Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.

    ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥
    sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4||
    You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4||

    ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥
    bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||
    You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

    ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥
    gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||
    The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

    ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥
    baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||
    O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5

    ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
    mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||
    Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

    ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥
    dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||
    Savior of Dropadi's honor.

    ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥
    kamalaakanth karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||
    Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

    ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥
    amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||
    The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.

    ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥
    akaal moorath jis kadhae naahee kho ||
    His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

    ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥
    abinaasee abigath agochar sabh kishh thujh hee hai lagaa ||7||
    O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7||

    ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥
    sreerang baikunth kae vaasee ||
    The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.

    ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥
    mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||
    By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

    ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥
    kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||
    The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8||

    ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
    niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||
    He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

    ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
    dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||
    He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

    ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
    saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
    He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

    ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥
    banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||
    He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

    ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥
    sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||
    His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

    ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
    sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
    He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

    ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥
    peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
    The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

    ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥
    jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
    The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1082




    Gurbani simply does not talk about Krishna in the same way it talks about Shiva.



    ਜਗਜੀਵਨੁ ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਜਲ ਥਲ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਪੂਰਿ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਬਰਨੰ ॥
    jagajeevan jagannaathh jal thhal mehi rehiaa poor bahu bidhh baranan ||
    The Master of the Universe, the very Life of the World pervades the sea and the land, manifesting Himself in myriads of ways.

    ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਿ ਅਲਖ ਗਤਿ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਦਾਸੁ ਤਾਰਣ ਤਰਣੰ ॥੪॥
    sathigur gur saev alakh gath jaa kee sree raamadhaas thaaran tharanan ||4||
    So serve the Guru, the True Guru; His ways and means are inscrutable. The Great Guru Raam Daas is the Boat to carry us across. ||4||

    ਜਿਨਹੁ ਬਾਤ ਨਿਸ੍ਚਲ ਧ੍ਰੂਅ ਜਾਨੀ ਤੇਈ ਜੀਵ ਕਾਲ ਤੇ ਬਚਾ ॥
    jinahu baath nischal dhhrooa jaanee thaeee jeev kaal thae bachaa ||
    Those who realize the Eternal, Unchanging Word of God, like Dhroo, are immune to death.

    ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਤਰਿਓ ਸਮੁਦ੍ਰੁ ਰੁਦ੍ਰੁ ਖਿਨ ਇਕ ਮਹਿ ਜਲਹਰ ਬਿੰਬ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਜਗੁ ਰਚਾ ॥
    thinh thariou samudhra rudhra khin eik mehi jalehar binb jugath jag rachaa ||
    They cross over the terrifying world-ocean in an instant; the Lord created the world like a bubble of water.

    ਕੁੰਡਲਨੀ ਸੁਰਝੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਪਰਮਾਨੰਦ ਗੁਰੂ ਮੁਖਿ ਮਚਾ ॥
    kunddalanee surajhee sathasangath paramaanandh guroo mukh machaa ||
    The Kundalini rises in the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation; through the Word of the Guru, they enjoy the Lord of Supreme Bliss.

    ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ਮਨ ਬਚ ਕ੍ਰੰਮ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਸਚਾ ॥੫॥
    siree guroo saahib sabh oopar man bach kranm saeveeai sachaa ||5||
    The Supreme Guru is the Lord and Master over all; so serve the True Guru, in thought, word and deed. ||5||

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
    vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jeeo ||
    Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o.

    ਕਵਲ ਨੈਨ ਮਧੁਰ ਬੈਨ ਕੋਟਿ ਸੈਨ ਸੰਗ ਸੋਭ ਕਹਤ ਮਾ ਜਸੋਦ ਜਿਸਹਿ ਦਹੀ ਭਾਤੁ ਖਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
    kaval nain madhhur bain kott sain sang sobh kehath maa jasodh jisehi dhehee bhaath khaahi jeeo ||
    You are lotus-eyed, with sweet speech, exalted and embellished with millions of companions. Mother Yashoda invited You as Krishna to eat the sweet rice.

    ਦੇਖਿ ਰੂਪੁ ਅਤਿ ਅਨੂਪੁ ਮੋਹ ਮਹਾ ਮਗ ਭਈ ਕਿੰਕਨੀ ਸਬਦ ਝਨਤਕਾਰ ਖੇਲੁ ਪਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
    dhaekh roop ath anoop moh mehaa mag bhee kinkanee sabadh jhanathakaar khael paahi jeeo ||
    Gazing upon Your supremely beautiful form, and hearing the musical sounds of Your silver bells tinkling, she was intoxicated with delight.

    ਕਾਲ ਕਲਮ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹਾਥਿ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਉਨੁ ਮੇਟਿ ਸਕੈ ਈਸੁ ਬੰਮ੍ਯ੍ਯੁ ਗ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੁ ਧ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੁ ਧਰਤ ਹੀਐ ਚਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
    kaal kalam hukam haathh kehahu koun maett sakai ees banmya gyaan dhhyaan dhharath heeai chaahi jeeo ||
    Death's pen and command are in Your hands. Tell me, who can erase it? Shiva and Brahma yearn to enshrine Your spiritual wisdom in their hearts.

    ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥੬॥
    sath saach sree nivaas aadh purakh sadhaa thuhee vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jeeo ||1||6||
    You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||1||6||

    ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਪਰਮ ਧਾਮ ਸੁਧ ਬੁਧ ਨਿਰੀਕਾਰ ਬੇਸੁਮਾਰ ਸਰਬਰ ਕਉ ਕਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
    raam naam param dhhaam sudhh budhh nireekaar baesumaar sarabar ko kaahi jeeo ||
    You are blessed with the Lord's Name, the supreme mansion, and clear understanding. You are the Formless, Infinite Lord; who can compare to You?

    ਸੁਥਰ ਚਿਤ ਭਗਤ ਹਿਤ ਭੇਖੁ ਧਰਿਓ ਹਰਨਾਖਸੁ ਹਰਿਓ ਨਖ ਬਿਦਾਰਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
    suthhar chith bhagath hith bhaekh dhhariou haranaakhas hariou nakh bidhaar jeeo ||
    For the sake of the pure-hearted devotee Prahlaad, You took the form of the man-lion, to tear apart and destroy Harnaakhash with your claws.

    ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਪਦਮ ਆਪਿ ਆਪੁ ਕੀਓ ਛਦਮ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਲਖੈ ਕਉਨੁ ਤਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
    sankh chakr gadhaa padham aap aap keeou shhadham aparanpar paarabreham lakhai koun thaahi jeeo ||
    You are the Infinite Supreme Lord God; with your symbols of power, You deceived Baliraja; who can know You?

    ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥੭॥
    sath saach sree nivaas aadh purakh sadhaa thuhee vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jeeo ||2||7||
    You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||2||7||

    ਪੀਤ ਬਸਨ ਕੁੰਦ ਦਸਨ ਪ੍ਰਿਆ ਸਹਿਤ ਕੰਠ ਮਾਲ ਮੁਕਟੁ ਸੀਸਿ ਮੋਰ ਪੰਖ ਚਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
    peeth basan kundh dhasan pria sehith kanth maal mukatt sees mor pankh chaahi jeeo ||
    As Krishna, You wear yellow robes, with teeth like jasmine flowers; You dwell with Your lovers, with Your mala around Your neck, and You joyfully adorn Your head with the crow of peacock feathers.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1402



    I think you will encounter tremendous error to try to interpret Gurbani according to teachings of Gnostic mysticism. Gurbani is first and foremost an Indic tradition deriving profound teachings out of sanatana Dharma. So many Sikh scholars try to create a smokescreen for the public to hide this by pulling in irrelevant traditions such as Islam and Christianity and even Buddhism. Clearly and undeniably Gurbani praises Maha-Vishnu and Har Kirshan and Raam, these are the beej mantra of Vaheguru Gurmantra, the very Naam which is the Sikh's boat of liberation. And equally clear Gurbani PRAISES and WORSHIPS and IDENTIFIES the sargun manifestations of avtaaras as GURU and Formless (nirguna) Transcendant Lord God. So running to some ancient Egyptian concept of 5 realms of Transcendant God before we even acknowledge the basic Gurbani about sargun Haree Krishna is quite a dramatic stretch and denial of the obvious.



    Of course Gnosticism is esoteric Christianity, and you will find parallels. The reason is Krishan avataar became Krishtos avataar. They are one and the same Jyot. But the cultural nuances, traditional understanding, and organized religion are not as equally parallel.

    Clearly they are talking about an avataar. The is the single most divergent teaching which separates Christianity out from Judaism and Islam. Christianity accepts that nirgun God could manifest in human form as sargun saroop. The difference is, the orthodox Christian authorities spent hundreds of years torturing to death anyone with a teaching which differed from the official view. Consequently, Christianity purged out it's own teachings of reincarnation and of human beings becoming merged with the God. Otherwise, you will find saints of all religions speak the same universal truth, despite the religious contradictions and objections of the "true believers who can't tolerate anything but the status quo."


    Gurbani acknowledges that the Das Avtaaras come from the Parabrahm, called as Narain and Jagannath (aspect of Maha-Vishnu the All-pervading Light) and hence described clearly as the four-armed Lord holding mace, chakr, and conch. Since Gurbani does not make this artificial distinction between sargun form and nirgun without form, why do we? And the reason is obvious, to do mental gymnastics so as to avoid having to acknowledge the spiritual legitimacy and acceptance of Sanatana Dharma as religious teaching underlying Sikh teaching.


    Christianity derives from Judaism, and Orthodox traditional Judaism has ALWAYS taught reincarnation. But it was a gupt teaching and hence, modernly some Jews don't even know it's part of their tradition. I blame it on the same inculturation process that makes Judaism very similar to Christianity for public acceptance. And after 2,000 years of mass slaughter, genocide, pogroms and religious persecution by Christian governments... who could blame them?

    The Kabbalist work, Zohar book of splendor is truly an amazing esotericism which also talks about Primal Light and Sound and interestingly, the chakrs. This influence is hundreds of years older than the Sufis, and is another element which indicates ancient cross-influences on major world religions with Vedanta. Trust me, the worlds deepest esoteric truths, in all major religions, in the mystical writings of saints, to indigenous shamanism ALL resonates with a universal harmony. Nothing contradicts Vedanta. Only the governmental religious structures created intolerance, contradictions and witchunts. So never be surprised to read some esoteric teaching or writing of a saint from an entirely different tradition and find it agrees completely with some teaching in Gurbani. At the heart of everything, is Primal Oneness. This is why saints speak the same spiritual language.

    Gurbani makes no artificial distinction between worship of the God as form or without form. Only we make things terrifically unclear by equating the demi-gods and Maha-devas of the Pakriti Maya world with the Clear All-Pervading Light, Param-Jyoti and the Lights, avataaras who are Satguru, and manifest from nirguna, into sarguna, from age to age.


    ~Bhul chak maaf
     
  20. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2006
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    18
    Re: Q&A with Sant Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal

    you already admitted in your previous posts to be Maya inflicted
    You are confusing a great many things. I have always made a distinction between the demi-gods who are Maya-inflicted, and the das avtaaras who are Paramjyoti in the sansaar.

    God is infinity. But all the infinite millions are ONE. There is a secret... no one is "unimportant. Not even a poor man. Not even a shudra.. Because the Divine Beloved One is All-pervading." The das avtaaras are important to us because they belong to our world. They are manifestations of God's Light in "Our" world so we can perceive HIM, the Divine Beloved One. Why would we ignore the Lights God sends us? Where in Gurbani does it say the avataars are "deceiving" the world, with your personal implication of "false light?" Why do you think evil of the avataars of God?

    When Guruji speaking from God-consciousness tells of the ebbing and flowing of worlds upon worlds, and the Divine Play which dances even unchanged through countless eras and unimaginable destruction and demise of every old way, why do you think it means something negative about Avataaras? When Guruji speaking from God-consciousness in Gurbani writes there are worlds upon worlds and millions of avataaras, why can you not see the glory of God shining Light into infinity? Why do you presume them to be "worthless?" Can you survive without the sun? Because the sun is physical and will pass away someday, does that make it "worthless?" You are not speaking from God-consciousness. Without the sun you would wither and die. The sun is wonderful. The earth is wonderful. The Life is precious. And the Satguru Avataar who manifests the infinite Light of nirgun God into sansaara is the most wonderful of all.

    Raam cried. This is a sin? You don't cry? Guruji never cried in any of His human forms? He was impersonal and inhuman? Guruji didn't suffer torture? Guruji didn't suffer grief? You have an unrealistic concept of avataars. They are fully human, and when merged in God-consciousness, fully Divine. How does this make Him "deceitful?" One of the most famous verses in the Christian Bible which speaks of the Beloved relationship Guru Jesus has with His disciples and with the suffering world is the shortest sentence. It consists of only two words, yet it is the most famous sentence in the Bible:

    "Jesus wept."


    The reason this sentence is so famous is because it shows so clearly, Jesus loved us. Raam wept because He loved Sita. Sita is representation of the atma captured by the demon. And Raam represents the Paramatma who wants to be always in the Presence of His Beloved. Raam wept because He loves all of us. That is why Raam Naam is a boat of mukti.




    ਜਸਰਥ ਰਾਇ ਨੰਦੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਚੰਦੁ ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਾ ਤਤੁ ਰਸੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਜੈ ॥੪॥੪॥
    jasarathh raae nandh raajaa maeraa raam chandh pranavai naamaa thath ras anmrith peejai ||4||4||
    My Sovereign Lord King is Raam Chandra,the Son of the King Dasrat'h; prays Naam Dayv,I drink in the Ambrosial Nectar. ||4||4||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 973



    It is amazing gymnastics by which Sikhs come out with the unbelievable theory, that Raam doesn't mean Raam. It means Raam to everyone else, Sufis, Ramanadis, Kabirpanthis, Vaishnavas. But when Gurbani japs the Naam of Raam, it ceases to be Raam, and becomes only nirguna. Amazing. Don't you understand that in every tradition which japs Raam Naam, it is both sarguna AND nirguna?



    ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
    thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||
    In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

    ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥
    dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||
    In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

    ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥
    ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||
    You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

    ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
    kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||
    In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1390




    ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
    dhharaneedhhar ees narasingh naaraaein ||
    The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

    ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥
    dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||
    The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.

    ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥
    baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||
    O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

    ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
    sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
    You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1082



    Narasingh Narain. Sri Raam Chand. Seriously the Naam of Raam is clearly spoken in context of the das avtaaras of Vishnu. Later the pauri clearly says the four-armed Lord holding conch, mace, and chakr. But still this is not Raam Chandra of Avodya? It is not Haree Krishna of Vrindaban and gopis? Then why does Gurbani itself contradict you?



    ਚੋਜੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿੰਦਾ ਚੋਜੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਪਿਆਰਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਚੋਜੀ ਜੀਉ ॥
    chojee maerae govindhaa chojee maerae piaariaa har prabh maeraa chojee jeeo ||
    Playful is my Lord of the Universe; playful is my Beloved. My Lord God is wondrous and playful.

    ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਖੋਜੀ ਜੀਉ ॥
    har aapae kaanha oupaaeidhaa maerae govidhaa har aapae gopee khojee jeeo ||
    The Lord Himself created Krishna, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord Himself is the milkmaids who seek Him.

    ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਸਭ ਘਟ ਭੋਗਦਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿੰਦਾ ਆਪੇ ਰਸੀਆ ਭੋਗੀ ਜੀਉ ॥
    har aapae sabh ghatt bhogadhaa maerae govindhaa aapae raseeaa bhogee jeeo ||
    The Lord Himself enjoys every heart, O my Lord of the Universe; He Himself is the Ravisher and the Enjoyer.

    ਹਰਿ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ਨ ਭੁਲਈ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿੰਦਾ ਆਪੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜੋਗੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
    har sujaan n bhulee maerae govindhaa aapae sathigur jogee jeeo ||1||
    The Lord is All-knowing - He cannot be fooled, O my Lord of the Universe. He is the True Guru, the Yogi. ||1||

    ਆਪੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਖੇਲੈ ਬਹੁ ਰੰਗੀ ਜੀਉ ॥
    aapae jagath oupaaeidhaa maerae govidhaa har aap khaelai bahu rangee jeeo ||
    He Himself created the world, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord Himself plays in so many ways!
    ~SGGS Ji p. 174




    ਅਖੀ ਮੀਟ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਧਰਿ ਹਾਹਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਕਰੈ ਬਿਲਲਾਂਦੀ ।
    akhee meet dhiaanu dhari haahaa krisan karai bilalaandee|
    Crying, totally dejected and helpless, she closed her eyes. Single-mindedly she invoked Krishna for help.

    ਕਪੜ ਕੋਟੁ ਉਸਾਰਿਓਨੁ ਥਕੇ ਦੂਤ ਨ ਪਾਰਿ ਵਸਾਂਦੀ ।
    kaparh kotu usaariaonu dakay doot n paari vasaandee|
    The servants were taking off the clothes from her body but more layers of clothes formed a fort around her; the servants got tired but the layers of clothes were never ending.

    ਹਥ ਮਰੋੜਨਿ ਸਿਰੁ ਧੁਣਨਿ ਪਛੋਤਾਨਿ ਕਰਨਿ ਜਾਹਿ ਜਾਂਦੀ ।
    had marorhani siru dhunani pachhotaani karani jaahi jaandee|
    The servants were now writhing and frustrated on their abortive attempt and felt that they themselves were ashamed.

    ਘਰਿ ਆਈ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਮਿਲੇ ਪੈਜ ਰਹੀ ਬੋਲੇ ਸਰਮਾਂਦੀ ।
    ghari aaee tdaakur milay paij rahee bolay saramaandee|
    On reaching home, Dropati was asked by Lord Krishna whether she was saved in the assembly.

    ਨਾਥ ਅਨਾਥਾਂ ਬਾਣਿ ਧੁਰਾਂਦੀ ॥੮॥
    naad anaadaan baani dhuraandee ॥8॥
    She shyly replied, “Since perennial times you are living up to your reputation of being father of the fatherless ones.”
    ~Vaar 10 Pauri 8 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji




    ਚਰਣ ਕਵਲ ਵਿਚਿ ਪਦਮੁ ਹੈ ਝਿਲਮਿਲ ਝਲਕੇ ਵਾਂਗੀ ਤਾਰੇ ।
    charan kaval vichi padamu hai jhilamil jhalakay vaangee taaray|
    The lotus sign in his foot was illuminating like a star.

    ਬਧਕੁ ਆਇਆ ਭਾਲਦਾ ਮਿਰਗੈ ਜਾਣਿ ਬਾਣੁ ਲੈ ਮਾਰੇ ।
    badhaku aaiaa bhaaladaa miragai jaani baanu|ai maaray|
    A hunter came and considering it an eye of a deer, shot the arrow.

    ਦਰਸਨ ਡਿਠੋਸੁ ਜਾਇ ਕੈ ਕਰਣ ਪਲਾਵ ਕਰੇ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ।
    darasan ditdosu jaai kai karan palaav karay pukaaray|
    As he approached, he realised it was Krishna. He became full of sorrow and begged forgiveness.

    ਗਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਲੀਤਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਜੀ ਅਵਗੁਣੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਨ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ ।
    gali vichi|eetaa krisan jee avagunu keetaa hari n chitaaray|
    Krishna ignored his wrong act and embraced him.

    ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਸੰਤੋਖਿਆ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰਣੁ ਬਿਰਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ।
    kari kirapaa santokhiaa patit udhaaranu biradu beechaaray|
    Gracefully Krishna asked him to be full of perseverance and gave sactuary to the wrongdoer.

    ਭਲੇ ਭਲੇ ਕਰਿ ਮੰਨੀਅਨਿ ਬੁਰਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰੇ ।
    bhalay bhalay kari manneeani buriaan day hari kaaj savaaray|
    The good is said good by everyone but the works of the evil doers are set right by the Lord only.

    ਪਾਪ ਕਰੇਂਦੇ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰੇ ॥੨੩॥੧੦॥
    paap karaynday patit udhaaray ॥23॥10॥
    He has liberated many fallen sinners.
    ~Vaar 10 Pauri 23 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji



    Does Vaaran and Gurbani make Krishna sound the way you do? deceitful, Maya-inflicted, boasting, vain? No! Gurbani calls Him the Lord God. And before you go into some delusion about disgusting kaam, you should know that Krishna is known as the stealer of hearts who takes devotees by force, because His love is so sweet, it is irresistible. In this respect, these are metaphors for the soul being swooned by a love affair with the Divine Beloved and not some sordid tale of seduction. Here is an example of this kind of Divine Love. Rather than something sordid, it speaks of the highest mysticism.


    There is a story that Radha, watching the sweet lips of Krishna wrapped all night around His flute, became jealous. "Why don't you wrap your lips around me and play me like you play your flute," she pouted. And Guru Krishna turned the flute sideways and said, "See, it is completely empty. When you divest yourself of all things I will come to fill you." This isn't sexual love, but it is spoken like that. It is the highest spiritual love. It is about the total surrender of the chela to the Guru in authentic Guru-disciple relationship. This is the highest love on earth precisely because it is completely pure. It is the devotional love, bhakti, through which the Presence of God which is Love can flow. And once you have tasted true bhakti, you become a bairaagi on this earth, because nothing else will ever satisfy you. So in this sense, the Divine Beloved has stolen your affection and ravished His Beloved.


    All I Was Doing Was Breathing

    Something has reached out and taken in the beams of my eyes.
    There is a longing, it is for his body, for every hair of that dark body.
    All I was doing was being, and the Dancing Energy came by my house.
    His face looks curiously like the moon, I saw it from the side, smiling.
    My family says: "Don't ever see him again!" And they imply things in a low voice.
    But my eyes have their own life; they laugh at rules, and know whose they are.
    I believe I can bear on my shoulders whatever you want to say of me.
    Mira says: Without the energy that lifts mountains, how am I to live?
    ~Mirabai



    The Freshness

    When it's cold and raining,
    you are more beautiful.

    And the snow brings me
    even closer to your lips.

    The inner secret, that which was never born,
    you are that freshness, and I am with you now.

    I can't explain the goings,
    or the comings. You enter suddenly,

    and I am nowhere again.
    Inside the majesty.

    ~Jallaluddin Rumi



    The problem with most Sikhs is they think only Shri Guru Granth Sahib is a legitimate Guru in a world of fakes. If you only knew. What's to gain by belittling as worthless the Guru-chela bond another person has? Does it somehow validate anyone to put down Sri Krishna as "boasting" "deceitful" or "deluded?" Gurbani says He is the same as Guruji. Bhagavad-Gita is one of the classic spiritual scriptures. It's absolutely magnificent. You can't even touch a single page of it's depth, beauty and wisdom with your negative comments. They reflect back on you like a mirror.


    Brahma is a demi-god. Maha-Vishnu and the das avtaaras are sargun saroop of the nirguna. You complain about the picture all the time veer ji. So explain, why did Guruji paint that exact same picture with words in Gurbani calling as Supreme Lord God what you call "imaginary" and "stuck in Maya?" Why do you contradict Gurbani? All you do is look for insults. Never do you try to appreciate and understand a different perspective.



    ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥
    sreerang baikunth kae vaasee ||
    The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.

    ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥
    mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||
    By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

    ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥
    kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||
    The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8||

    ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
    niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||
    He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

    ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
    dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||
    He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

    ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
    saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
    He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

    ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥
    banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||
    He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

    ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥
    sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||
    His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

    ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
    sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
    He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

    ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥
    peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
    The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

    ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥
    jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
    The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1082



    Somehow the above pauri doesn't sound like description of someone stuck in Maya, deluded, boasting or imaginary at all. But sounds like powerful spiritual symbolism very clearly describing the sargun as nirguna.


    You never answered anything. You just throw out insults to demean and to deny what you can neither accept nor understand.

    If Guru Nanak is merged with God, then there is no limited sectarian personality of Guru Nanak anymore, such as you describe, a True Sun in a mist of fake pretenders. But the Universal Divine Light is pervading in the hearts of all people, equally, without despising anyone. In the words of the Apostle Paul, "I have become all things to all men so that all through me might be saved." As Gurbani tells you there are millions and millions of avataaras, so you see as worthless, what you should see as millions of Satguru Nanak's. No one can claim some limited sense of proprietary ownership, like this baseball team against that baseball team. What kind of attitude says, "We have Guru Nanak, thay have all the fakes, poor them." How silly. Spirituality doesn't work that way. The God is God. Every form is God. God's Light shines in avataars to set captive beings free. No one can insult or degrade such a high and pure message of Divine Love.


    "The wise who knows the Self as bodiless within the bodies, as unchanging among changing things, as great and omnipresent, does never grieve". "That self cannot be gained by the Veda, nor by understanding, nor by much learning. He whom the Self chooses, by him the Self can be gained. The Self chooses him (his body) as his own". But he who has not first turned away from his wickedness, who is not tranquil, and subdued, or whose mind is not at rest, he can never obtain the Self (even) by knowledge. ~Katha Upanishad 1.2.22-24


     
  21. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2007
    Messages:
    4,578
    Likes Received:
    1,606
    Re: Q&A with Sant Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal

    Know Thyself As Soul, According to Lord Mahavira and Jainism


    "Now, since it has been said that you are my twin and true companion, examine yourself, and learn who you are, in what way you exist, and how you will come to be. Since you will be called my brother, it is not fitting that you be ignorant of yourself.." (Yeshua, The Book of Thomas the Spiritual Athlete, Nag Hammadi Library)




    [​IMG]



    The greatest mistake of a soul is non-recognition of its real Self, and it can only be rectified by recognizing itself..

    Know thyself; recognize thyself; be immersed in thyself --- you will attain Godhood..

    --- Mahavira (Tirthankar Bhagwan Mahavira)


    By merely meditating upon Him all inflictions of the living souls (jivas) which have arisen from the world are destroyed. These are not destroyed through any other means. He is the Lord of three worlds, and is the Indestructible Supreme Soul..

    Whatever is the Supreme Soul, so am I. Whatever is my essential nature, is the essence of Supreme Soul. Therefore, I am fitted for meditating on my inner Supreme Soul --- none other..

    --- Pundit Puja Tika


    The only method to know Consciousness is to experience (the true nature of) one's Self and thus to purify and uplift the mental tendencies. It is most desirable for the practitioner to search for one's self by one's self. There is no other means other than meditation, which verifies subjectively and substantiates objectively that which previously was only known through listening or teaching..

    --- Acharya Tulsi


    This soul in itself is illumined by the light of knowledge. However, in this body it is covered by three coverings: the gross body and two subtle bodies (Taijas and Karman shareer). As long as this soul does not recognize its enlightened form, the bondage remains..

    An ascetic established in the Self (Atma) is liberated. The ascetic who is not thus established does not attain liberation through mere observance of niyama (outer observances). The state of being established in Atma is the Right Faith (belief verified by experience), and firmness in this is the ‘discerning character endowed with knowledge’..

    ---Jainist Sutras quoted in the book, The Harmony of All Religions


    The person who has recognized the true nature of the soul (Atma) and experienced it through self-knowledge, merges into the Pure Form and becomes Paramatma (Lord, the Supreme Soul)..

    --- Pundit Puja Tika


    Human beings without knowledge of the Supreme Soul wander through the law of karma in the deep forest of the world. By the knowledge of the Supreme Soul a human being attains a prominent place --- even greater than Indra (king of the gods). Know Him to be the true manifested Supreme Soul. He is the abode of all joys. He is the brilliant light of knowledge. He is the protector. He is the Supreme Person beyond thinking and His nature can not be described..

    The One, who can not be described by words and is not conceivable as matter or material stuff is the Supreme Soul. He is infinite, transcends Sound, has no birth, and is not subject to wandering in the world. With a still and tranquil mind meditate on the Supreme Soul..

    --- Jainist text called, Jnanarnva
     

Share This Page