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1984 Attacks on Sikhs in the 1980s Why do you chose to forget?

Discussion in 'History of Sikhism' started by Hardkaur, Feb 13, 2006.

  1. Hardkaur

    Hardkaur
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    Why is it that parents tell there children about the sacrifices that the sahibzaday made and the sacrifices of the Gurus, and Sikh history thats over 300 years old yet they chose to be ignorant and ignore things that happened 20 years ago?

    Why is it if a sikh child asks there parents about the attacks on sikhs parents will get angry and say "dont bring up things like that, why throw salt on our wounds whats gone is gone"

    Why is it that the sacrifices made by the hundreds of sikhs that suffered in that dark time are not glorified? Innocent sikhs, children, woman, men were killed. Sikh women were raped on the streets!! Why is it that we chose to ignroe there screams? Why doesn't anyone want to remeber? No history is ever complete without the mention of the bad times.

    Why is it that Hindi movies talk about Indra Gandhi like shes some kind of hero when we all know deep down shes a b****:}--}: , the HITLER OF THE SIKHS. There are still people in India suffering from all that happened 20 years ago, yet no one wants to hear there stories, they tell them to forget and not cause any more trouble by bringing up 20 year old things

    But you can't forget can you? How can you forget about your kids who were torutured to death? Your brothers, you husbands? Your wives and sisters who were raped on the streets??:}--}:

    I think its just shameful that nobody wants to remeber, nobody wants to talk about the sacrifices of modern day sikhs. Its shameful that parents want to keep there children in the dark and let the hindi movies brainwash them into thinking Indra Ghandi was an angel.

    I think that we should remeber the sacrifices of those brave sikhs, who chose to die for there religon, who chose to stop the invasion of the Golden temple.

    Why doesn't anyone want to remeber?? Why is it that Jews talk so much about there sacrifices and pains during the holocaust, while sikhs choose to keep the world in the dark, about the cruelty that they've had to face, WHY??????
     
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  3. hps62

    hps62
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    Dear Sister

    SSAKAL

    There are several reason why must we forgive and forget it the 1980 era.

    It was a fight between two brothers in one part of India over some reasons . Just like the catholics and Protestants in past. It was not a JIHAD or a CRUSADE.

    The remaining part of the country was not even bothered about it.
    It was for them some thing like a caste war which keeps on erupting in different part of India.

    The cause and effect are not very clear in the 1980 scenario. Why was there turmoil there in first place.

    Several reasons can be hypothesesed

    1 ) Lack for maturity in Punjabis to understand that a new star was being born in Indian Punjab the "SIKHS". The purpose of sikhs was to encourage a roubustness by diversity ( please read the science of robustness contributed by diversity) in Punjabi and later to be in Indian society. Sikhs were suppose to be the final frontier of Indian civilization. They were never to fall and fail even if all else were to lie in ruins . They were bestowed with the power of Phoenix.

    2 ) The loyality, friendship and comradeship shown by Sikhs to Western civilization also made them think of harnessing this good genome / philosophy in there country in an integral way. What better way to get them over to Canada /UK/ Australia than give them a push in form riots in India with a imagined threat to there religion. Allow them all the things they desire for Gurdwaras, Punjabi Language , Music .Thing which are very dear to a Sikhs heart ( after all he is a Guardian of Punjabi culture ) . It was a smart way these brilliant westener work.
    I some how admire them inspite of what many people may say about them. See there discoveries like telephone, TV , Computer, aeroplane , spaceship. They know the art of converting Dreams into reality which no other civilization can boast of.

    3 ) SIKHS have a strong notion of getting every thing by hard work ie as a right and not as gift. How could they inherit a rich well industraized and educated Punjab from there fore fathers. They take a pride in being a self made man/ society/nation/civilization.They also think that SINGH is a KING born to rule. This also gets them at loggerhead with other people who are also eyeing that throne of Punjab / India.

    4 ) Immaturity and youthfulness of a young religion which is 300 years old and has to learn a lot of many subtle ways of life. Sikhs in the sense give to much imporance to violence for solving all problems to life. It is like they considereing themself as a hammer . Then evey problem looks like a nail to be just hammered in. This is still seen even today in many songs of like
    " mardeyga ys marrjvaga" .

    As sikhs grow they got to learn that life is also about subtility. Sikhs living in UK can pick up this art beautifully by the Britishers whom I Consider the samartest Europeon born. They managed to rule the world and made English a global language by subtility ( see articel in nature how english became a global langualge and is now immortalised ).

    5 ) Naive attempts by some groups in India to weaken the Sikhs. They dont realize they can fool some people of India for some time . But you cant fool all the people of Indian for all the time. If Sikhs are a assest to western country then there worth to there homeland is even more.

    All over india it is known that

    a) Sikhs saved India from mughals ( jealousy factor for those who did not fight then. they mised a golden chance.)
    b) saved India from 1947, 65 , 71 aggression
    c ) Got them out of hunger by green revolution
    d ) Got hem out of a Economic crisis.
    e ) Attempting to avert a future energy crisis.


    All of these are heart burns for other group who call them selve Indian.

    It is just that we do not know how to take our rights in India.
    We behave very egotistically due to our sucess. If we become a little humble we can alway inherit the Indian throne. ( I am not sure if this would dilute our desire for sucssed in difficult sceanarios the country may face tomorrow ) .

    This change in attitude requires decesion by SIkh think tank so the country is not put in jeoprady tomorrow which is a natural default state of our very old and aged country. We sikhs are the young sons of this country and must keep it youthful by our spirit of " Nisch kar apni Jeet karo "


    Please also read my thread on this site titled :-

    [​IMG] Indian muslim a sucess story:- lessons for Sikhs

    Modern Sikh Soldiers of the Globe - New "Enemies", "battle fields" & "Weapons"

    The very fact that we have our PM who is Sikh , a chief of army staff who is a Sikh shows 1980 may be a traumatic period .It cannot be equated with the Mughals. Where every day was a struggle to keep our faith alive.


    So cheer up > forgive and forget and move on with our own rising India .After all no kicke a dead dog. You got kicked because you area too good. So just go with your good work for the country where ever you are . History will write in feew hundred years the truth that Sikhs are the greatest civilization mankind has ever been blessed with.

    luv

    WGKWGF

    hps62
     
  4. drkhalsa

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    Dear Khalsa JI

    I dont agree with you particularly on this point It is nice and noble thought to forgive but an idiot thought to Forget it!!
     
  5. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    well said..TO FORGIVE is DIVINE..to FORGET is STUPIDITY.

    The JEWS have a Holocoust Museum to REMIND their coming generations..never to let such a calamity befall them again...

    The Jallianwallh Bagh still has the 1920 Bullet Holes clearly marked..

    But the 1984 DESTRUCTION of the AKAL TAKHAT, the smashed parkarma, the bullet ridden Darbar sahib....ALL were so HURRIEDLY WHITE WASHED OVER ?? Any reason WHY ?? a few miserable bullet holes in jallianwallh bagh are PRESERVED for the past 80 Years...BUT Not the BLOOD BATH in Darbar sahib just 20 years ago !!!

    The Jallianwaalh bagh bullets were shot by the FOREIGN GOVT..the BLOOD BATH in Amrtisar was doen by the OWN GOVT..Sharam aundee hai jee ?? aapnean ne kee chaand chharr ditta ??

    Sikhs MUST establish a 1984 GHALLUUGHARA MUSEUM so that such a clamity never befalls the Sikhs again... Forgive the perperators..YES...BUT FORGET...NEVER.

    jarnail singh gyani:down:
     
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  6. Mai Harinder Kaur

    Mai Harinder Kaur
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    Perhaps I should keep my mouth shut as I have for the last 22 years, but maybe the time has come to speak out, at least a little. For most of these years, I have avoided anything Sikh, including most of my own family. Much of this time only my eldest brother had any idea where I was. This was not from fear or anger. It was purely from pain.

    Although we are Canadians, we were visiting my husband's relatives in Delhi during late October, 1984. When the 'riots' broke out, what happened to everyone else happened to us. Most of the stories I've heard from others sound like the Sikhs just let everything happen. I simply can't believe that.

    All of us, including me, 6 months pregnant, fought like demons. There was no way we could win, but we tried. After it was mostly over, when I could catch my breath and look around a little, I saw. I will never forget the blood all over my husband's body or the strange angle of my son's head. Or the other bodies Or the smell. Truthfully, I don't know how I survived; I was badly injured and, to be honest, had no interest in surviving. That is the bare bones of my story from then.

    Recently, I had a stroke and was in the hospital in a coma for some days. Some of my nurses were Kaurs. They saw my kara, which I never stopped wearing, and took good care of me. We have become good friends. They are all in their 20s, and when I told them I was in Delhi at that time, they had a million questions. I told them to ask their parents. All said exactly the same thing: 'They won't talk about it.' So I have been talking about it.

    The point is that they want to know, they need to know, and they have a right to know. And no one will tell them, except for one pathetic, lone individual who has been hiding out for 22 years.

    Old wounds that have not healed need to be opened and treated and the infection cured, not ignored. Although I still want something like justice, the wish for vengeance died long ago. Now my wish is just for healing. We who went through this need to have the courage to face it, only then will healing be possible.

    I hope I don't come to regret posting this. I am not comfortable making my feelings so public, but perhaps I can encourage others to come forward, and at least talk to their children.
     
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    #5 Mai Harinder Kaur, Oct 12, 2006
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2006
  7. kaur-1

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    Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru ji Ki Fateh,

    I hope you will get better soon. Please listen to gurbani shabads or gurbani such as japji Sahib, Sukhamani padh and other Nitnem Bani's.

    Pathway to God @ SearchGurbani.Com has audio and translations if you dont already know.

    If you are strong enough, could you tell please us more of what happened. Where exactly were you. Did you give birth?. Who attacked you and your family. Was your husband wearing a turban, is that why they attacked you?
    Why did you leave the Sikh circle? Please share your experience.
     
  8. skeptik

    skeptik
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    Its better to forget, than to remember incompletely.
     
  9. kaur-1

    kaur-1
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    NEVER FORGET 84

    NeverForget84.com
     
  10. skeptik

    skeptik
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    It wasnt the first time in history. How many times did Ahmed Shah Abdali do the same thing? And ofcourse there were reasons - but i'd hazard a guess by your rhetoric to say you arent in possession of them. Lets leave these complex matters to those who want to devote their time to study the details, shall we? There is no point in ignorant people getting worked up about things they ill understand.
     
  11. skeptik

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    kaur, what good does that website serve? it gives a one sided account of a complex issue and doesnt admit that it does this. It leaves the reader with an incomplete picture, and will only serve to confuse and rile up people who arent familiar with the details but are nonetheless convincable that the Government hates Sikhs and there is a conspiracy to eliminate them. It does no one any favours to give incomplete information about such a contraversial set of events.
     
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  12. kaur-1

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    Fine, you just go ahead and forget it! There are plenty who dont and would never ever forget it!.
    This includes all the Sikh history!.


     
  13. dalsingh

    dalsingh
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    It wasnt the first time in history. How many times did Ahmed Shah Abdali do the same thing? And ofcourse there were reasons - but i'd hazard a guess by your rhetoric to say you arent in possession of them. Lets leave these complex matters to those who want to devote their time to study the details, shall we? There is no point in ignorant people getting worked up about things they ill understand.
    Aha! The legendary "bury your head in the sand approach"

    It is too much to deal with so lets forget it --- hhmmmm a good strategy!
     
  14. Mai Harinder Kaur

    Mai Harinder Kaur
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    I am not ready to tell my whole story on the internet; there are others involved and I would have to talk to them first. However, I'll try to answer a bit.

    I was badly injured and lost my babies - twins.

    Who attacked? According to our cousins, some were long-time neighbours, others just unknown thugs.

    My husband was Khalsa and always wore a turban. However, the reason they attacked us was that we were at relatives' house, who were known by neighbours to be Sikhs. I suppose now it would be called a 'home invasion.'

    Why I left the community is really hard for me to answer. To begin with, having a French Canadian Catholic mother, as I was growing up, there were some in the community that could have been more...polite...to me. I didn't feel like dealing with that. Also, and I am not proud of this, every time I would see a Sikh looking like a Sikh, I would fall to pieces. There were so many conflicting emotions and thoughts in me that I guess I went off the deep end. I believed at the time, that the 'Sikh circle' would be unwilling to help and now, seeing how it is still unwilling to face this, I think perhaps I was right.

    In this thread, there seems to be a lot of discussion about, should we forgive? Should we not forgive? Should we forget? Should we not forget? Should only experts express an opinion? Etc. I hope I put a human face on this. I am not talking in theories. WE ARE YOUR SISTERS AND BROTHERS, REAL PEOPLE. I still hope that some other survivors will come forward. I feel alone. There are thousands of members of Sikh Philosophy. Am I the only one willing to talk? If so, that really underlines the problem, no?
     
  15. kaur-1

    kaur-1
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    Of course you should not forget. 99.9% of the Sikhs with the exception of "skeptik"! will ever forget what happened.

    Operation Bluestar
    "What was one of the darkest chapters of Sikh history, reminiscent of the persecution the Sikhs faced at the hands of the Mughals has acted like a lightening rod for all Sikhs. It should not be viewed as a cause of incitement of hatred, but rather as a jolting reminder to Sikhs that they cannot take the existence of their religion for granted. As caretakers of the Sikh religion, it is up to Sikhs to actively participate and make sure that the message of the Gurus and the Sikh religion survives and grows, overcoming any and all adversities. "

    Appalling:-"All of us, including me, 6 months pregnant, fought like demons. There was no way we could win, but we tried. After it was mostly over, when I could catch my breath and look around a little, I saw. I will never forget the blood all over my husband's body or the strange angle of my son's head. Or the other bodies Or the smell. Truthfully, I don't know how I survived; I was badly injured and, to be honest, had no interest in surviving."

    I am truly sorry and saddened to hear that you lost your whole family - your husband, your young son and unborn twins.

    What can I say except to ask you to please keep on doing Waheguroo Naam simran and listen to simran. It will ease the pain.

    Do I get angry at the Hindu's and God know's who else that was involved in the slaughter of the inncocent.?

    Why is there so much evil around in this world especially evil that is commited in the name of "religion"?




    AMg 885
    ang 885
    Page 885

    rwmklI mhlw 5 ]
    raamukulee mehulaa 5
    Raamkalee, Fifth Mehl:


    pvnY mih pvnu smwieAw ]
    puvunai mehi puvun sumaaeiaa
    The wind merges into the wind.


    joqI mih joiq ril jwieAw ]

    jothee mehi joth ral jaaeiaa
    The light blends into the light.


    mwtI mwtI hoeI eyk ]
    maattee maattee hoee eaek
    The dust becomes one with the dust.


    rovnhwry kI kvn tyk ]1]
    rovunehaarae kee kuvun ttaek
    What support is there for the one who is lamenting? ||1||


    kaunu mUAw ry kaunu mUAw ]
    koun mooaa rae koun mooaa
    Who has died? O, who has died?


    bRhm igAwnI imil krhu bIcwrw iehu qau clqu BieAw ]1] rhwau ]
    brehum giaanee mil kuruhu beechaaraa eihu tho chuluth bhaeiaa
    O God-realized beings, meet together and consider this. What a wondrous thing has happened! ||1||Pause||


    AglI ikCu Kbir n pweI ]
    agulee kish khubar n paaee
    No one knows what happens after death.


    rovnhwru iB aUiT isDweI ]
    rovunehaar bh ooth sidhaaee
    The one who is lamenting will also arise and depart.


    Brm moh ky bWDy bMD ]
    bhurum moh kae baadhae bundh
    Mortal beings are bound by the bonds of doubt and attachment.


    supnu BieAw BKlwey AMD ]2]
    supun bhaeiaa bhukhulaaeae andh
    When life becomes a dream, the blind man babbles and grieves in vain. ||2||


    iehu qau rcnu ricAw krqwir ]
    eihu tho ruchun rachiaa kuruthaar
    The Creator Lord created this creation.


    Awvq jwvq hukim Apwir ]
    aavuth jaavuth hukam apaar
    It comes and goes, subject to the Will of the Infinite Lord.


    nh ko mUAw n mrxY jogu ]
    neh ko mooaa n murunai jog
    No one dies; no one is capable of dying.

    nh ibnsY AibnwsI hogu ]3]
    neh binusai abinaasee hog
    The soul does not perish; it is imperishable. ||3||


    jo iehu jwxhu so iehu nwih ]
    jo eihu jaanuhu so eihu naahi
    That which is known, does not exist.

    jwnxhwry kau bil jwau ]
    jaanunehaarae ko bal jaao
    I am a sacrifice to the one who knows this.


    khu nwnk guir Brmu cukwieAw ]
    kuhu naanuk gur bhurum chukaaeiaa
    Says Nanak, the Guru has dispelled my doubt.


    nw koeI mrY n AwvY jwieAw ]4]10]
    naa koee murai n aavai jaaeiaa
    No one dies; no one comes or goes.
    ||4||10||​

    Sri Granth: Shabad/Paurhi/Salok SGGS Page 885
     
  16. Mai Harinder Kaur

    Mai Harinder Kaur
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    Personally, I don't hate Hindus or any other group. Those who murdered us have their own karma. Let them keep it! I don't want it!

    At my death, all this will be behind me.

    Kaur-1 ji, thank you for the words of comfort. Skeptik doesn't bother me. In fact, that attitude is part of what needs to be brought forward and dealt with.

    Now, where are the rest of you survivors? Please, we need you. I need you.
    Remembering out loud is easier than remembering in secret.
     
  17. skeptik

    skeptik
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    I cant be the only one disgusted with kaur-1's posts on this thread? How patronising has she been to Mai, who deserves none of that. Hard-kaur's original post was bad enough, but it didnt need the insane subsequent replies. Its clear to me that almost none of you should be discussing something you clearly arent capable of doing. If you dont know the details, please stop doing so. It's worser than spreading rumours because it gives rise to hatred and xenophobia; and it is counter to our faith. You do know that Guru Nanak discouraged spreading rumours about others, dont you? Well stop doing it. Study history by all means - remember the events, but do it honestly and comprehensively. Start reading widely from a number of sources, and stop looking at inciteful websites that show partial glimpses - without telling the full story, and thus give the impression that there is a genocide in progress, when there hasnt been.

    Also its not for me to forgive or forget, nor most of you. Unless you were personally wronged, like Mai has been, you have no right whatesover to take the moral high ground about "forgiving and forgetting", its none of your business, you werent hurt - stop pretending as though you were. Yes the sikh nation suffered, but that has been grieved and re-grieved enough - and its not in anyones interest to be in a constant state of grief. What of Chardikalaa? This is not the same as burying ones head anywhere - but burying heads is infinitely better than remembering only partial information, filling up the rest, and inciting others about an anti-sikh conspiracy. Mai, I've never come across a victim of 84, my relatives simply do not live in New Delhi or any of the other places exposed to the riots; nor where they present during the army invasion of Bluestar. I suspect this is true enough for most sikhs, so we do not have a personal reason to grief. Nevertheless there is plenty of sympathy available if you seek it, i am sure.
     
  18. skeptik2

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    Hardkaur, read this closely please.

    Simply because those past events havent retained their controversy while the ones in recent decades remain controversial. It is not that your parents are ignorant - they probably know more about the details than you will, simply because they remember the details while you'll only hear the propaganda. Further, since those events are so recent, they remain close to people's hearts, and as long as this is the case, they'll not be able to judge the facts as objectively as would be required. In such a case its better not to talk about them, than to give enpassioned, sentimental, and false accounts.

    Maybe for the very reason they've told you, that its too painful to talk about? But like i said before, the events are complicated, and it takes a lot of research before you begin to understand not just how it happened, but with even greater difficulty, why it happened. It does no one any favours to take up simplistic explanations like "Hindus wanted to exterminate Sikhs", as some foolish people have adopted.

    This is to ask the wrong question. Think about it from the victims perspective to understand why. No ones ignored it - we all know about these things, more or less. We choose not to talk about them because they're painful things, and because they bring out the worst in us - hate for the other, and this is harmful to our community.

    Who is tellign them not to cause any trouble? By the way, no one thinks Indira Gandhi was an angel. She obviously wasnt! No sikh thinks that. Where have you come across otherwise?

    I thought you were talking about victims of the riots, and the innocent pilgrims visiting Gurudwara. Not the militants. You cant put them in the same category as the victims, simply because their choice was to fight - while the rest simply had no choice. I have sympathy for the victims but not the militants.

    Your last paragraph said, "Why is it that Jews talk so much about there sacrifices and pains during the holocaust, while sikhs choose to keep the world in the dark", well, there were many more jews killed. That was genocide. Millions died. Our problem wasnt of the same scale. But you've noticed an important thing - the jews like to emphasise their persecusion through out history - it seems we've decided to play the 'victim' card, and pretend the world wants to exterminate us. I dont think the earlier sikhs would have acted the same way as we do today. We've become a bunch of victims, rather a group of honorable men and women.
     
  19. skeptik

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    To give you my personal story, I was born around the time of these events, so I was too young then to know what it had meant, or even know what had transpired. I remember, though, around the early 90's, hearing about the 'Athwadia' problem, which ofcourse was 'the' issue for us foreign Sikhs, and not the military or the government itself. For when visiting Panjab, we'd risk being harassed and blackmailed by the corrupt revolutionaries, who took had exploited the power vacuum left by the militancy and counter-militancy movements. It is a truism that it was the common man who suffered, everyone else either got rich from head hunting bounty (and i know of one man in particular, who rose to the ranks of the Punjab Police Force, having staged a fake encounter with militants, and then consequently leaving a dozen or so of them dead - and then claiming the rewards for his terrific work), or the militants who black mailed well to do families for money and resources. They were a scourge to my families in particular, and one was never sure about his safety or future. Such pakhandi saint soldiers also took our neighbour hindu, and shot him and his family in cold blood - their guilt? Of being born hindu. I didnt discover these facts until much later ofcourse, and i will tell you how i came to know them.

    Around the age of 14, i heard about Bluestar from a friend, and so wanting to know more, I went to my father and asked him. He bluntly did not wish to talk about it - and i couldnt understand why. A bit later he caught me reading some books, in particular a book about 84 that i had borrowed from a library, and he was so furious. He took the book off me and i never saw it again. Eventually he realised that it was better to tell me about the events than keep me in the dark, and have me stumble across incorrect information. Well i suppose this happened round the time i started looking down on hindus, calling them bahmans, and generally taking a disliking to them. My father was worried and we started to talk about the events.

    He had known Sant Bhindrawala personally and could tell me about his early days spent in Rhode. He told me how Jernail's family was very poor, and through some of our acquintances, they had secured Jernail a job in the copy room at Harimindar Sahib. My father took pains to explain the details, as best as he could, starting from the around the time of demands of Punjabi Suba. He had been part of the same movement, but luckily had snapped out of it in time, and concentrate on more important matters, and fortunately enough this turned out to be the right decision.

    Having known a little more, these further details, I considered myself a 'khalistani', and a propa sikh to boot, I found that there were members in
    my family who had been sympathetic to Jernail Singh. They call him Sant ji, and speak fondly of him. I couldnt balance some of the things I'd heard about him, though i was hesistant to go all the way, and decide against him being a saint altogether. Still, to a passionate young singh, as I was, the idealism of Bhindrawala spoke loudly: "physical death I do not fear - but death of a conscious is a sure death", and therefore i was able to sustain my reverence for him. It is only in recent times when i have been researching the facts more that i have been able to abandon my affection for him. But thats beside the point - the fact is, it wasnt clear to me until i had learnt more, and i am sure that if i hadnt done that i would have remained wrong for the rest of my life.

    Its romantic the whole lifestyle of riding motorcycles, carrying AK-47's, and fighting the good fight, and this speaks to a young mans idealism - but there is more to this, surely. What about Sikhi? The more i discover about Bhindrawale, the more i am convinced that whatever he was doing, it was not a good thing for the sikh community.
     
  20. Prabhjoyt Singh

    Prabhjoyt Singh
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    skeptic

    what did Sant ji do that was bad for the SIkhs?
     
  21. kaur-1

    kaur-1
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    Skeptic, I dont know which planet you are from but anyone who has any feelings especially a women member who reads what happened to another women would feel the hurt and would reply. "patronising"?? :confused: ????

    Reading your post is enough to give anyone a headache!.

    Why dont just go on worshipping your "BABA" chasing Cricket player!.
    Do you even know the dodgy background of the "BABA" that your hero favours?
     

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