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Atheism Atheists attacking beliefs..

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Kookoobird, Feb 23, 2008.

  1. Kookoobird

    Kookoobird
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    It happens a lot in my days at school, people don't single me out but they perceive anyone who believes in God as dumb. Almost nobody believes in God at my school, and it is getting worse as time goes. In a class of 30 today I was the only one who believed in God, which some kids found amusing. I said some pretty nasty things to them so that they wont bother me again, it's just that this has been happening for a while and has finally gotten on my nerves. They come up with many arguments which I do not feel like arguing with them. It is just that it has gotten to the point where some teachers (and almost all the students) have began saying.

    "Why believe in God if you don't believe in Leprechauns or fairies?"

    or

    "Every religion has different beliefs in the afterlife such as reincarnation, or eternal hell so one is definitely wrong but chances are both are wrong."

    or

    "The world would be better without religion"

    One day I got annoyed and told my teacher to tell me how everything in the universe came from nothing, to which she had no response, and got angry at ME for attacking her..

    There are some Christians (very few) in my grade who I saw were offended often at school in the past month, and I am the only Sikh boy in my grade. I would just like it if someone could come up with some pro arguments to those 3 statements I have listed above. The people have not shaken my beliefs, it's just a downer to go into such a negative environment everyday after doing my Path in the morning before school.:hmm:
     
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  3. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    God is not only confusing to the Atheist, but also proves that they haven't got enough ball/gut to pursue the concept.
     
  4. flore

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    HI,I'm myself what can be called atheistic...Means that I don't believe in a God.. I might perhaps believe in some mysticism.. like the whole or the Nature... but in the same time, I deeply think that there is a lot of beauty and richness in any kind of believing..the faith is something that link you with something unknown for me..II studied philosophy and religion Histories.. and I discovered how much studying other's faith and practices are incredibly interesting and make you really rich..I think that the ones who blame you for this richness are themselves really ignorant... and are passing by knowing you and see how beautiful the knowledge of others in their differences is...that's at least, my point of view and the one of many other who feel differences as a gift nor than a threat...Take it easy cause there are a lot of people that feared the unknow... and reply by attacking instead of listening...Take care of you.. I'm sure you'll find soon some atheistic people and others than doesn't confuse religion and fear of the differences...
     
  5. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    Very nicely put Flore Ji. Makes me realize, one doesn't have to take a defensive stand but rather put the question back to the atheist group. It's hard to come up with an answer put forward by someone else because you feel vunerable when you give an answer. Instead, you can turn the question back at them like, "Why don't you beileve in God" or "What does God mean to you ?"

    If they bring all the trinity stuff like Jesus, etc then tell them that the concept of God in Sikhism differs from other religions. Give them this website and invite them to pose their questions.
     
  6. kds1980

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    Just tell them world would be much better place wothout countries.Why not join the whole world and allow free movement of humans.why to divide world in different countries
     
  7. ekmusafir_ajnabi

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    It happens a lot in my days at school, people don't single me out but they perceive anyone who believes in God as dumb. Almost nobody believes in God at my school, and it is getting worse as time goes. In a class of 30 today I was the only one who believed in God, which some kids found amusing. I said some pretty nasty things to them so that they wont bother me again, it's just that this has been happening for a while and has finally gotten on my nerves. They come up with many arguments which I do not feel like arguing with them. It is just that it has gotten to the point where some teachers (and almost all the students) have began saying.

    There was a discussion once between an Atheist and a God realised person. Everyone gathered around from all over the State to listen to the arguments between these two very intelligent individuals. The Atheist spent more than two hours with counter arguments against the existence of God. Then came the turn of the God realised person. He said “I must confess, I too had some doubts about God, but after listening to you I can now confidently say that god exists because there must be some source power behind you that has given you this vast knowledge it can only come from God himself”. And he sat down.

    It is not your job to teach others of the existence of God. Spend time on realising Him yourself and let you way of life be the beacon that reflects the qualities of God.

    "Why believe in God if you don't believe in Leprechauns or fairies?"

    What is not in ones destiny, one can not have it. What is beyond ones understanding, one can never understand. When something is beyond ones comprehension one begins to live in a world of fantasy. Let them be at peace.

    or

    "Every religion has different beliefs in the afterlife such as reincarnation, or eternal hell so one is definitely wrong but chances are both are wrong."

    Denial of reality does not make disappear. The Laws of Karam and Dharm will stand whether one believes in it or not. It is only their lack of understanding that is reflecting in their attitude.

    If their make believe story has any truth then why is not each individual the carbon copy of the other. Why one person sleeps with a full belly and the other is starving. There must be some criterion behind it.

    Ignorance is bliss. Their lifestyle and thinking is not your consequence.

    or

    "The world would be better without religion"


    The word religion means Righteousness. It tells us what is right and what is wrong by the Laws of Nature. The world will be better not without religion but those that preach the Laws of Religion because they themselves do not practice what they preach. If only people spent time to understand and practice religion we would not be facing these problems. Guru Nanak Dev ji taught us 3 very important concepts.

    Naam Japo (Meditate on / recite the Naam)
    Wand Shako (Share your bounty with others)
    Dharm di Kirat Karo (Practice a Righteous Living)
    These three concepts form the core of Sikhism that even a vast majority of Sikhs themselves are unaware (failed to understand) and non-practising. Without religion one is no different to the Life Style of an animal. Religion teaches us discipline. Even an Atheist who is living a disciplined life is following a Religion but he does not realise it. So let him be in a dream world.




    One day I got annoyed and told my teacher to tell me how everything in the universe came from nothing, to which she had no response, and got angry at ME for attacking her.


    This is a typical reply when one challenges ones weakness. They are not angry at you but themselves for being lost. Do not challenge them.

    There are some Christians (very few) in my grade who I saw were offended often at school in the past month, and I am the only Sikh boy in my grade. I would just like it if someone could come up with some pro arguments to those 3 statements I have listed above. The people have not shaken my beliefs, it's just a downer to go into such a negative environment everyday after doing my Path in the morning before school.


    There will be no pro-argument that will put their minds at rest. If you want pro-arguments then do so by reflecting through your life style and not words. People are not interested to know the answers but only to ask questions. Do not give any answer the questions will cease.
     
  8. Archived_Member1

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    i used to be an atheist. it sucked. i was miserable. i thought life was pointless and spent all of my time trying to have "fun", which is nearly impossible and usually made me even more miserable. :)

    don't worry about them. you're lucky to have knowledge of God at such a young age. in 20 years those kids from school will be having mid-life crisis, getting divorced, buying sports cars, spending thousands of $$ on therapists and wondering why they're STILL not happy. :)


    that said, i find that most angry atheists assume that all religions are christianity. when you start to explain a little bit about sikhi, they usually find it's useless to argue with us. maybe they go find a christian to harass. :)

    just tell them that sikhs believe all religions are valid, you can call God anything you want, and that God can be found in nature, science, and even you and me...
    even the Big Bang and evolution are ok with sikhi... we just believe that God made it happen. :)
     
  9. flore

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    Many thanks for your reply Namjap..Indeed , i think that fruitfull discussion can only be open when everybody could explain and listen... but that requires some open minded... that's not, unfortunetaly a common human gift.. but this can be drive also.. what do you think?Apart that, I would like to ask you if I can find here in Belgium or in other european countries people who can help me to do a documentary for television (and perhaps cinema) about Sikkhism..My aim is to realize (i'm journalist and photographer) a serie of documentaries about unknown religion (when I say unknown.. i'm talking about the majority of people here in Europe but in other world place..). I would like to dedicate a documentary to Sikhism in most objective way I can.. and to , I hope, make people realise what Sikhism is exactly and perhaps created some discussions...I would really appreciate if you ( or any people part of this forum) can help me in this task..Take care and warm regards..
     
  10. Satjot Kaur

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    Ask them what they think God is. Often, people who do not believe in God have a rather ridiculous notion of what God is anyway.

    I personally believe that all that is, is God. You are a part of God, as are the monitors we are looking at and the keyboard I am typing on. God is also all thought, the process of cause and effect, and anything else that can or can not be conceived of. It is unusual to find anyone who denies that God exists by that definition. Often, even the Christians come to agree with me on that after I ask them "Well, where is God? Isn't He everywhere?"

    I don't know what country you are in, but in the American public school system, a teacher can get in a lot of trouble for talking about God. Sometimes when people either do not have the courage to tell the truth or are somehow being restrained from telling the truth, they just act angry as a way to try to avoid getting in trouble. It isn't the best reaction, but it has been effective for a very long time, so many people (especially most of those born before 1980) still do that.

    Thank you for bringing up your hurt at the statement that the world would be better off without religion. You have taught me something today, because after looking at all the wars that happen because of religion, all the prejudice that happens because of religion, and all of the hard feelings that religion has caused, I have also considered that the world would be better off without religion. You have reminded me that religion also provides comfort and different ways of coming to understand reality.

    God must love diversity because there is so much of it. I don't think there is anything wrong with the slightly different ways of coming to understand God, but the hatred and prejudice has to go. If God wanted us all to see Him exactly the same way, He would have made us all alike.

    One of our lessons we are corporeal to learn is indirect understanding. In our subtle bodies, we can gain direct knowledge of everything. Only in our physical bodies can we develop the compassion it takes to see through someone else's eyes. Try to remember that not only are you right based on only everything you know, but they are also right based on only everything they know. If you can see how they are right based on what they know, it becomes easier for you to show them how you are right based on what you know.

    The better person is the one who can see first how the other person is right in his own mind. Truth is self-evident when all is known, but so long as we are in bodies, we can not know it all. The best we can do is share each other's eyes to see as much of the truth as possible.

    There are many people that will never even try to see the truth as you see it. Those who only wish to see the world through their own eyes are handicapped by their limited view. We can hope they will see more one day, but we can not force them.

    Some never will be able to see through anyone else's eyes, and trying to make them see anyway is as unreasonable as trying to teach a dog to drive down a busy street. Love them for who they are, just as you might love a dog even though it can't drive.
     
  11. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    Flore Ji,

    It's a wonderful project which you've expressed with such ease. For a start you may want to look into Sikhs in Europe, Sikh articles in other languages (a thread in SPN. Here's the link to it : http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/interfaith-dialogues/17977-sikh-articles-in-other-languages.html

    Kindly keep posting more queries. It will keep our minds focused and motivated.
     
  12. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    God must love diversity because there is so much of it. I don't think there is anything wrong with the slightly different ways of coming to understand God.

    Satjot Ji,

    You said it so candidly anf its exactly what Guru Nanak did for Hindus and Muslims - gave them a new perspective about God.

    I personally believe that all that is, is God. You are a part of God, as are the monitors we are looking at and the keyboard I am typing on. God is also all thought, the process of cause and effect, and anything else that can or can not be conceived of. It is unusual to find anyone who denies that God exists by that definition. Often, even the Christians come to agree with me on that after I ask them "Well, where is God? Isn't He everywhere?"

    Satjot Ji,

    I feel connected with this thought and perceive you as having a beautiful heart that is always looking to find perfection in everything that surrounds you.

    I guess it's our perception that matters...
     
  13. flore

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    Many thanks for this first link.. I would need also to have some contact persons who would agree to drive me deeper into Sikhism roots and faith in Europe but off cause in Asia also...
    The project is still not launch (means some funds and producers to convince) but if you or any members of this forum can help me to find good contacts that will lead us among Sikhs communities, that would be really great...

    To get back to the mean subject of atheistic reaction, I would also like to had that the word "atheistic" itself should be correctly understood.. there are the one who think that believing in any God is a stupid behaviour.. and there are the one that simply don't know...I might say I don't know what exists or not... and as being sure to know nothing, each meeting, each discussion and discovering of others who include themselves into a knowledge process is a wonderful adventure... That should be an important point to talk about...I have friends with whom I learn a lot...they are Shia Muslim, Sunni Muslims, Soufis, franc macons, Yezidis or Jews..they are living in Belgium, Irak, Afghanistan, Iran, Israël or Macedonia... but it doesn't matter.. there are first of all my friends.. and the hours who spend together discussing about our differences.. but also about all (so much) our common point (even if we leave in different side of the planet) is an everyday day delight... and I thank the existence for that...while some of them thank God the same way...
    I really think that people minds are driven by the lack of knowledge but also by other means like mainstream media or political wills that give them only a part of the information...
    Ask yourself how many times you are push to think that some people are like this or like that.. people that you don't know.. people who are living on the other side of the planet...
    But if the medias says it, that's should be true, that's what many people are thinking...
    But once you have to opportunity to go there, in Middle East or Asia, or South America... and to live with these people (not to stay as a tourist with your conviction) you realize that all you though to be right is only stupid ideas...
    And you start to ask yourself why you thought that.. why you think these people were someway like 'barbarous person"... living in an old age... Cause you were told to...
    That's why I think this could be change and people could realize how close they are.. that's at least, what I will try to do as soon as I can by directing some documentaries about the communities in the world and who they are really... I still have to convince some producer and find funds( don't like this part..)...Hope lots of other will have different project to insure a dialogue between the commmunities...
    I know I'm a dreamer but perhaps not that much...What do you think??
     
  14. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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  15. Satjot Kaur

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    Namjap Ji,

    Many thanks for your kind words. Such communication nourishes the soul.

    Many blessings be unto you.
     
  16. flore

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    Hi Namjap,
    Yes, I truely realised that we are connection with the world .. But it's sometimes not easy to apply this knowledge in my everyday life... somethimes it's like the link is cut...
    Talking about that subject, can you enlight me about how Sikhism is considering the link between the human and the universe and how you live this in your today's life...apart from the texts...
    Warm regards
     
  17. Astroboy

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    One word - perception. Of course this has to do with beliefs. One has to have a certain amount of belief in order to pursue the concept of the linkage we feel connected with the universe.

    Let me simplify this. When we see the stars, sun and moon up there, we have a perception about it which might not be a true picture. Through out senses, the existence of these heavenly bodies brings about the curiosity to learn more and compare notes.
    But seen subjectively, the universe exists because we exist.
     
  18. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    japji STANZA XXVIII
    • Let contentment be your ear-rings,
      And endeavour for the Divine and respect for the Higher Self
      be your wallet,
      And constant meditation on Him be your ashes.
      Let preparedness-for-death be your cloak,
      And let your body be like unto a chaste virgin.
      Let your Master's teachings be your supporting staff.
      The highest religion is to rise to Universal Brotherhood aye, to consider all creatures your equals.
      Conquer your mind, for victory over self is victory over the world.
      Hail Hail, to Him alone,
      The Primal, Pure, Eternal, Immortal, and Immutable in all ages .
     
  19. Archived_Member1

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    i found an interesting letter from some atheists who are trying to find flaws in Sikhism (to debunk every religion), but can't find anything wrong with it. :)



    SikhNet News Archive - Sikh Religion gets high marks from Athiest Society - 02/25/2008



    Sikh Religion gets high marks from Athiest Society. News Source: http://www.sikhsangat.org
    • Dear Ali, please help us. We were very impressed with your website and agreed that religion in general is no longer needed, we can all be humanistic and live in peace and harmony. We are in the process of making a website which will hopefully help to destroy the religious doctrines which divide humanity. We were doing great with knocking out Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Baha'i, even Buddhism but we have gotten very stuck with Sikhism. This religion is (to put it nicely) "a big pain in the ***" (Please pardon the language) We have only found one site which tries (very poorly) to argue that even this religion is not needed, but the argument is irrational and very unscientific unlike the very rational arguments you use.When we read the following from your website, we found what you said to be amazingly interesting: "Doubt Everything Find Your Own Light." "Last Words Dear friend, if you look for meaning in life, don’t look for it in religions; don’t go from one cult to another or from one guru to the next. You can expend all your life or look for eternity and will find nothing but disappointment and disillusionment. Look instead in service to humanity. You will find “meaning” in your love for other human beings. You can experience God when you help someone who needs your help. The only truth that counts is the love that we have for each other. This is absolute and real. The rest is mirage, fancies of human imagination and fallacies of our own making." By Ali Sina Why is this interesting? Because we found this religion of Sikhism to be in agreement with you! This is why we have a problem. We tried to look at their holy text (Adi Granth) but didn't find the usual absurdities we found in the other religious books. In fact its refreshingly inspiring and very good!? Maybe you can have some better luck.

      We tried to visit a couple of websites and got more of a shock. Did you know that they believed in Democracy, freedom of speech, choice, expression, freedom of religion, pluralism, human rights, equality between men and women, equality of all people regardless of race, religion, caste, creed, status etc. 300 years before the existance of the USA! Theirs is the only religion which says in their religious scriptures that women are equal in every respect to men. They even had women soldiers leading armies in to battle against "you know who" (The usual suspects - Muslims!) Their history is a proud one, they fought in both World Wars. Even Hitler praised them for their bravery and Aryan heritage! Dear Ali, this religion is hard for us to try and criticise but you are an expert and may find some faults overlooked by us. In their holy book, there is a round earth, water is made from chemical elements, there is even mention of the evoution process, big bang and life on other planets! This is pretty crazy and amazing stuff, who would have thought that these New York taxi drivers (There are lots of Sikh taxi drivers in NY) would have such an amzing faith? We read up some information of what Bertrand Russell had to say about Sikhism, this is the man who destroyed Christianity (same applies to Islam and Judaism) and exposed its absurdities, but even this great man got stuck when it came to Sikhism! In fact he gave up and said "that if some lucky men survive the onslaught of the third world war of atomic and hydrogen bombs, then the Sikh religion will be the only means of guiding them. Russell was asked that he was talking about the third world war, but isn't this religion capable of guiding mankind before the third world war? In reply, Russell said, "Yes, it has the capability, but the Sikhs have not brought out in the broad daylight, the splendid doctrines of this religion which has come into existence for the benefit of the entire mankind. This is their greatest sin and the Sikhs cannot be freed of it."

      Please bear in mind that Bertrand Russell was a great philosopher and free thinker. We have been trying for weeks now to find a way to fairly and rationally criticize and find fault with this religion but have failed. We even found out that there are many people converting to this religion in the USA and Europe as well as Russia (Mostly well educated and affluent white people). We tried to find some of their literature and see what kind of claims they make, but unfortunatley they have no missionary material as they do not have missionsaries! People become Sikh by learning usually by chance or by coming in to contact with them. They are currently the 5th biggest religion in the world and growing quite fast in the west and Russia. Please help us as we are stuck, to give you an example of they are all about we found the following websites: SIKHNET - Sikh Religion - Sikhism Information (This is a pretty good site and helpful) http://www.hope.at/sikhism (This site is very easy to follow, check it out, they have a Womans section and a Martyrs section, it looks like that you are not the only one trying to expose the falseness of Islam, Sikhs scholars did it hundreds of years ago and got killed for it!) The Sikhism Home Page (This is the site that was on CNN when Sikhs in the USA were mistaken for Arabs and Middle Easterners and were attacked by mindless morons)

      Please help us out, we cant make our website about religion being the cause of war and disharmony when we have this one and only religion which makes a hell of a lot of sense! lol (I thought Atheism had all the answers but were kind of stuck now.) We look forward to hearing from you, we respect your great views and want to promote them to everyone, thank you for your time, take care.
     
  20. Satjot Kaur

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    That's cute, but to state the obvious, that letter was a joke. Also, if you look at the link, it was supposedly written by John Smith. The joke is incomplete without the punchline.

    I apologize to all who find my statement insulting, but I have been told to always state what I find obvious because these things are not obvious to many people. I agree that if such things are not obvious to everyone, they should be stated.
     
  21. Archived_Member1

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    oops, sorry. guess they fooled me.
     

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