Ashamed To Be Sikh

[Chaan Pardesi]

Chaan Pardesi Ji,
1]what have written in your post are facts.What I was talking about was myths.
2] Do you claim that no myths have creeped into Sikh religion,which in its original form was very rational.
3]Did any of our great Gurus ever claim that they possess the power to perform miracles.
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Dear Jasbirkaleka Ji,Gurfateh,

2]Nowhere I claimed anything apart from the facts of Sikhism ; and my personal view on how F.tfw responded, most inappropriately.

Yes,I say and rightfully claim that NO myths are present in the teachings of the Sikh religion.It is as pure as it was 545 years ago.The principles of the religion are steadfast and strongly entrenched.They will not change.Guru Granth sahib cannot change a single of its word for as long as the world lives on.Jugo jug attal.....the Gurus did not promote any myths and also did not support any myths.So how have they crept into the religion?They have not crept into the religion, but into people who profess sikh faith and their practices of the religion, as they think ;not necesarily rightly.
What has happened is the standard of Sikhs has fallen.The level of understanding by Sikhs about the teachings of Guru Granth sahib has fallen.Sikhs have lost the plot.Sikhs have transgressed the path of Gurbani.They have become slaves of all sorts of human exploitation, as they lost their faith in the Granth sahib.Thay have taken to matt pooja, baba pooja, derawaad, barsis, this jatha and that jatha chelas.They have adopted man mat instead of Gurmat and taken to durmat.That is hardly any part of the Sikh religion.The religion is as pure as it founded and preached by the first Guru.But the people lost it, and have adopted various activities that are not part of the religion at all.That does not mean the religion condons it.

As they developed such wayward mentality it was natural they start believing all sorts of tales, black magic and myths, practices of lighting lights at statues,wearing dhage/thread around necks and wrists , shaving off their children's hair etc..that is hardly a practice condoned by the Sikh Gurus and or is found in the teachings of SIKH religion!

3]Can you please provide the quote where I have alledgedly said "that our great Gurus ever claim that they possess the power to perform miracles"I dont think, I ever said that nor that was ever an issue in any of my write ups.


With Nimratta sahit...Gurfateh

 

[spnadmin]

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

I don't think anyone on this site is sharpening daggers, but still there is some high degree of intolerance to different views. This is a Sikh site and so most will write in interest of Sikhs. However when Sikhs claim to be almost the most tolerant of people on this planet, then they set themselve a very high standard to live of fall by. When they fall, they have a long way to fall.

Rituals are part and parcel of religion. That is what they are about, otherwise they would not be a religion.
Guru Nanak tried very hard to break free from them all, and to shift to most simple worship of God alone. This is bhakti-yoga, or krishna consciousness. This does NOT imply it is Hinduism, but simply means it is GOD worship. However Sikhs have over time shifted the goal-posts to Guru worship, history worship, past hero worship gurdwara worship, their own identity worship, their own ritual worship. In each case they will deny it is not rituals, but it is to any outsider every bit ritualism, but with another name. When they shift go back to God worship, they will be following goals of enlightened founder.

I will take a daring step now, and maybe banned for saying it: Guru ji's from 4th Guru onwards engaged in nepotism. Guru Nanak ji ensured this did not happen, but unfortunately this did not persist through lineage of Guru Sahiban. Sikhs will deny any differences between Gurus as they have to beleive in one light through all - if not the castle built on sand collapses.
However when you have people with Hindu backgrounds becoming Sikh Gurus then all is open to change and introduction of ritual. Dasam Granth is evidence of deep roots embedded back into Sikhism.

Very sad ending for very great efforts by Gurus. I am personally convinced Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is only wisdom in Sikhi. The Gurus contibuting to it did not intoduce any ritual, but unfortunately Sikhs of today follow and idolise 10th master, instead of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. With that comes all the rituals and guru worship and scripture worship, and recitals, and there is little God worship.

Sat Sri Akal

sunmukh ji

Here again is an example where you try to second-guess SPN policies and procedures.

Almost every single paragraph has been a topic of discussion more than once in more than one thread. No one was banned for it. But when you make statements as in bold, you have to expect that other members are going to be outraged and reserve for themselves the right to speak their minds. After that - if things get out of control in terms of bad karma - of course someone is going to receive an infraction, or be told to settle down, or be banned.


Now what do you mean by nepotism? How did Guru Teg Bahadur receive the gurgaddi? The story is a bit more complicated than nepotism. There were a lot of contenders. The outcome could have been worse. Or depending on how you look at it, the outcome could have been better for one branch of the family and worse for the other. It certainly worked out well for Kashmiri pandits. And is that not the test of nepotism? When people who are not related to you in any way shape or form benefit from your sacrifice, then you have shown honor and independence.

The test of nepotism is to see if the benefits from keeping power and influence are jealously kept inside the sacrosanct circle of family and friends. Who among the Gurus from Hargobind to Gobind behaved in such a nefarious manner?

I would add wtvt - here is something to be proud of. The founders of our religion taught us how to get over ourselves.

 

[sunmukh]

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

SPNAdmin ji

Nepotism is being used as commonly defined in dictionaries.

This is one definition

The practice among those with power or influence of favouring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs

- oxforddictionairies.com

There is no implication that the nepotism is destined to result in either poorer or better decision making by the favoured person.

So in a way, perhaps you are also jumping to second guessing, by asking whether any Sikh Gurus behaved in anything other than a most humble, virtuous, and self-sacrificial manner. None of this is in dispute and there is no implication that there were any "nefarious" acts of part of any Sikh Gurus.

Nevertheless I personally think, in my own opinion, which is all it is, is that nepotism existed and resulted in the transfer of gurugaddi rather than transfer based solely on merit.

Admin Update: Related Thread http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/business-and-lifestyle/33128-lineage-of-the-sikh-gurus.html

In my own humble opinion this is most probably the reason that there are no shabds from 6th, 7th, 8th or 10th Guru Sahiban in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. It is possible that their jyot was in fact a little different from the other 6 Guru Sahiban, something recognised by Sri Guru Gobind Singh.

Each one of these 4 Gurus had by now more than sufficient followers and extensive financial resources, so had means at their disposal to have shabds written, if not by themselves then at least by contracted poets/scribes/composers. Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji had over 50 poets in his court, and used them extensively, but still did not see fit to include compositions in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

So now when I wonder why that is, I unfortuntely have to second guess, and assume in my manmat that what was being written by these 50 odd poets was not in accord with Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, and Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji was also well aware of this fact.

What was coming out was quite possibly not in line with the very pure non-ritualistic devotion to God that Sri Guru Granth Sahib inspires one to follow. The message of Sri Guru Granth Sahib is very simple albeit repetitive at times. There is devotion to God, remembrance of God, love of God, along with good or virtuous actions and charity when possible. There is no space or time in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji for subscriptions to rigorous daily ritualistic recitals at rigorously prescribed times ( amritvela being a time to reflect deeply upon God, not necessarily to recite), to dress uniquely, to seek an identity separate from one's neighbour, to become proud of one's behaviour aboove the behaviour of others, to put down other religions, to create states, to worship Guru ji above God (Guru Nanak Dev ji bows to God) Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji advocates devotion to God alone. He alone is the sole object of why humans are in this form, with no time for worship of Gurus or idolisation of one's religion and its practices. Removal of ego and duality can lead one to visualisation of this objective, and with God's grace one may realise it.

Sat Sri Akal

 

[spnadmin]

Originally Posted by sunmukh ji

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam
SPNAdmin ji

Nepotism is being used as commonly defined in dictionaries.
This is one definition

the practice among those with power or influence of favouring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs

oxforddictionairies.com

Is guruship a job as in Guru Hargobind was on a career path? Was some other contender for the guruship blocked from a job promotion because of nepotism.

There is no implication that the nepotism is destined to result in either poorer or better decision making by the favoured person.

True! So why did you see fit to bring it up in the first place?

So in a way, perhaps you are also jumping to second guessing, by asking whether any Sikh Gurus behaved in anything other than a most humble, virtuous, and self-sacrificial manner. None of this is in dispute and there is no implication that there were any "nefarious" acts of part of any Sikh Gurus.
Nevertheless I personally think, in my own opinion, which is all it is, is that nepotism existed and resulted in the transfer of gurugaddi rather than transfer based solely on merit.

OK - So then, in your humble opinion, how should the gurgaddi have been passed? And who should have judged that it landed in the right place.


In my own humble opinion this is most probably the reason that there are no shabds from 6th,
7th, 8th or 10th Guru Sahiban in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. It is possible that their jyot was in fact a little different from the other 6 Guru Sahiban, something recognised by Sri Guru Gobind Singh.


Or maybe they were not poetically inclined. And what yardstick would we use to decide whether the jyote was a little different? And you would be the best to validate the results?


Each one of these 4 Gurus had by now more than sufficient followers and extensive financial resources, so had means at their disposal to have shabds written, if not by themselves then at least by contracted poets/scribes/composers. Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji had over 50 poets in his court, and used them extensively, but still did not see fit to include compositions in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.
So now when I wonder why that is, I unfortuntely have to second guess, and assume in my manmat

Indeed?

that what was being written by these 50 odd poets was not in accord with Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, and Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji was also well aware of this fact.
What was coming out was quite possibly not in line with the very pure non-ritualistic devotion to God that Sri Guru Granth Sahib inspires one to follow. The message of Sri Guru Granth Sahib is very simple albeit repetitive at times. There is devotion to God, remembrance of God, love of God, along with good or virtuous actions and charity when possible. There is no space or time in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji for subscriptions to rigorous daily ritualistic recitals at rigorously prescribed times ( amritvela being a time to reflect deeply upon God, not necessarily to recite), to dress uniquely,

to seek an identity separate from one's neighbour,

We are advised to seek the company of the sants. By implication a distinction is made between those who are gurmukh and those who are mannukh. This point however should not be treated in an overly simplistic fashion.

to become proud of one's behaviour aboove the behaviour of others, to put down other religions,

to create states,

I have no idea what you are referring to here.

to worship Guru ji above God (Guru Nanak Dev ji bows to God) Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji advocates devotion to God alone. He alone is the sole object of why humans are in this form, with no time for worship of Gurus or idolisation of one's religion and its practices. Removal of ego and duality can lead one to visualisation of this objective, and with God's grace one may realise it.

Yes this is why we do not accept any human guru, and gurgaddi was eventually given to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji -- which imho essentially ends the discussion of whether there was nepostism.

Sat Sri Akal

Interesting afternoon of speculation veer ji

 

[jssands]

Waheguru ji ka KHALSA Waheguru ji ki Fateh. Well All well said we all have the right to express.......... In Punjabi we often say" Doosrey di Thali wich Ladoo wadda hi dikhaayi denda hai" May we all lead ourselves to inward journey of inner illumination....... Asin dilon te dimaagon SIKH haan thats why we are PROUD SiKHS. Know yourself and the world is yours........Need of the hour is not to grab the ocean.......but to know yourself........

 

[dalbirk]

The religion is not what is written in the holly books. It is what the person lives by.
As we see there are many inconsistencies in every religion.
We Sikhs always put other religion down so that we can look good. We feel proud when we listen the stories of magic performed by our Gurus.

I don’t think any scientist test the hand mark on the stone. As Dilbirk claim that Sikhism is the only logical religion in the world. He failed to explain where is the logic in these stories. As a Sikhs I can not question any thing in our religion. Every this is said no matter how ideological the story it has to be true. As Mai Ji pointed it out.

I have asked many questions like these but always I was put down by all.
One was Nanak had great idea, what went wrong and what can be done about it.
Couple of the people reply only to say that Hindus are creaping into to Sikhism to corrupt it.
WE can not take the responsibility that we are the one who are corrupting our religion.

Nanak did not tell us in of his poetry to do any rituals. Yet we are doing more rituals then Hindus. Every day new ritual is creeping in to Sikhs thanks to the granthies and khatha watch. There is no will by SGPC. The publick are accepting what what the rigis are telling us. No one allowed to question the khatha watch to explain what he is saying.

No one here is admitting that Sikhism is full of stupid retiuals but they are very quickie to rip apaer the person who ask question.
Please read the post again (seeker9,findingmyway dilbik) and kindly reply to the question. You are killing the messenger.

MY warning to wftw is be-carefull many are sharpening their daggers.

Seeker Ji ,
What I specifically protested against was that wftw did not put a single instance from Bhai Gurdass Ji Vaars which also contain Guru history , a authentic source for getting to know Sikh history . I perhaps also did not find any quotations from Sri Guru Granth Sahib which are our guiding light hence the base of Sikh philosophy & beliefs . Instead the Janamsakhis which were written long after Gurus were gone in late 18th century were taken to point out some tales which are inconsistent with the basic philosophy & beliefs of Sikhism . Add to the woes are the illiterate Granthis which quote these Saakhis out of faith or love for Gurus little knowing they are belittling the achievement & lives
of the Gurus by quoting such stories . As for SGPC the less said , the better it is . Yesterday a friend of mine who is close to Avtar Singh ( Makkar ) SGPC president told me that Makkar had made more than 50 crores ( USD 12 million ) in five years by selling his ( President's ) quota in SGPC managed collleges @ 5 seats per instituion only annually . The rest of SGPC annual budget of 550 crores ( 140 million USD ) is also having a cut @15% for office bearers of SGPC . How much goes to whose pocket is anybody's guess . In this state of loot who has time to think about the affairs of Sikh Panth , everybody is busy collecting his share , only he has to be the YESMAN in the eyes of Badal senior & junior who have anyhow no time for Panth busy collecting their own Moolah whether they have to pander to rabid RSS or Deras , Babas is not of any concern to them . Everybody is making the hay while the sun shines .

 

[Guru di beti]

Dear Friends,

Just like many of you, I was born and raised a Sikh. I have gone to Sikh Gurdwaras since an early age and sat in the sangat and absorbed the teachings of the "gurus." At an early age, I attended a large Gurdwaras California, however my family located when I was 16 to a different sate with a much smaller Gurdwara. However we still continue to attend on a regular basis, my admittance up until this day is consistence. I go every Sunday with my parents and on special occasions when there is a special Sikh holiday.

I am 23 now, and graduated last year from a very reputed university, where I Majored in Political Science and History, I also minored in Religious Studies. Currently I am in first year Law School, and these inquiried keep popping in to my head as I study Religion and Law.

I have had a profound interest in world religions nice an early age, perhaps the age of 14-15 when I started to discovered that Sikhism is not the only region. I even attend Church with a couple of my friends on several acassion and say without a doubt that the Christines were very welcoming people. I also got the opportunity of sit in several Singaguous and observer their letures. Upon entering college, I was also fortunate enough to meet several Muslim who invited me to "open mosque" days where non Muslims were welcomed and given lectured on Islamic history.

Regardless, my point for pointing out my well versed religious knowledge is to point out that, I as a Sikh, consider my self to be well versed in History and Religion. I do not want to sound condescending or an elitist, but I would consider my self more versed than 90% of the public when it comes to matters of region and history.

Now to my point.

I have a profound shame to Sikhs for the following reasons.

I wanted to type these points in greater detail, but time is limited and wanted to get something out here so dialog can begin.

1. Historical Inconsistency and Unverifiable History
From a young age, I have inquired about the stories and the lectures given in our Gurdwara. from the story of Nanak stopping a huge rock with his bare hands, to the battles fought by Gobind Singh. My first point is that despite these stories being told several hundred times, it does not make them true. I have personally visited the sight of the supposed hand print, and it does not appear to be a hand, it simply an outlined that was placed much later. Scientific evidence has confirmed this fact and there is not impact in that region of the rock. Other stories such as epic battles of Gobind Singh seem to be exaggerated by the Sikh religion, to say the least. I have researched history from this time period, and can no find any significant 3rd party evidence to confirm that such large battles did take pace. Do you not ever consider how one man can fight 5,000? With an arrow in his chest? There are several other inconsistency in stories that I hear every day in the Gurdawara, however there are too many to point out. Regardless of the fact. I would like to know, why are these stories not able to be confirmed by scientific data or other 3rd party historical account? I think this is a question that needs to be raised and discussed openly, I brought up this question to my local granthi, and his simple response was that the we know this to be true because the Gurus tell us this.

As as alluded before to my study of religion before, I know that other religions also have unverifiable history. However, I find two main difference between their region and the Sikh religion.

a. Most other religions, do not teach their religious history as "fact," but rather "this is what we believe." This is fundamental difference that must be addressed. When ever I try to question a key fact in Sikhism, it is as if i were questioning the word the god. In fact, all Gurdwara and Sikh treat their religious stories as "fact" and do not even entertain the notion that there can be misrepresentations or logical / historical inconsistency.

b. In all other major regions, there is stories that do not match with with historical account. However, to a large degree, these religions have a vast literature and intellectual inquiries in their houses or worships about these abnormality. I was takn a back the first time I went to the mosque and there were 4 Muslims discussing the supposed site of Muhammad's first house. I have also gone to Churches where there is open dialogue between the congregation where they openly question their religion and the inconsistency. However, I do not find this in the Sikh temples. Regardless of this, how is it possible that these religions still have documented evidence and open dialog about the lack of about such things from Noha's Arch, shroud of turin, to what is in the kabah.

2. Lack of Knowledge and Desired Knowledge / Religious Text

I am sure many of you are or know someone who is baptized. Many of the things that baptized individuals part take in is to pray, in the morning and evening. Both of my grandmothers and a couple of other individuals in my family are baptized. At a young age, I would question them about what they are regurgitating as they rocked back and forth reading out of their little book. However, I never got an clear cut answer. As I got older, I would question more people about what they are reading, and why? However, till this day, I have not met a single person, including a dozen granthis, who do not have any idea about what they are regurgitating every morning and night. I will admit that majority of them know have little about about several individual lines, however, I am condifent to say that none of them have even 50% knowlege about what they are reguraduating every morinig and night.

My surprise does not come from the fact that they do not know. It comes from rather the lack of desire to know. they are perfectly content that they are doing enough to fulfill their duties as a bapsitised individual that they do not even sedire to find out. I have received such ambiguous answers as

"No one knows what it says."

"We are not meant to understand."

"We can not even grasp how sweet the words are."

Again, my problem is not with the fact that they do not know but rather:

a. A Sikh is someone who is always learning, someone who is on earth for the mere reason to learn and understand. Yet these individuals have not desire to understand what is written in the spiritual text.

b. Why is it that other religion's scared text are actually readable by anyone who picks them up? I have read a significant portion of the Bible, and majority of the Koran, and actually understand what it says in there.

c. I am not saying that all Sikhs do not know what it says in this religious text. I am sure a lot of you will attempt to point out your superior knowledge on the matter, however I would like to point out that you are in the minority and a breed of your own. Otherwise you would not be on this forum.


I Have not completed all of my objections to Sikhism, I will add and edit the about information and arguments as I have time.

Please excuse my grammatical errors and spelling. I just wanted to get this up here so a dialog can ensue and maybe I can learn something.

3. Hypocrisy in Sikhism

4. Attacks on Islam / Lack of Understanding / Denial of Similarity

5. Sikh Theory vs. Reality

Please read carefully: reason why we do Paath WFTW hope God blesses you with peace of mind and strenght to have faith in Sikhism, spiritually.


An old American Sikh lived on a farm in the mountains of Eastern Kentucky with his Young Grandson.fficeffice" />
Each morning Grandpa was up early, sitting at the kitchen table,reading his Guru Granth Sahib.
His grandson wanted to be Just like him and tried to imitate him in every way he could.

One day the grandson asked, "Grandpa! I try to read The Guru Granth Sahib just like you: but I don't understand it, and what I dounderstand, I forget as soon as I close The Granth Sahib.
What good does reading the Granth Sahib do?"
The grandfather quietly turned from putting coal in the stove and replied,

"Take this coal basket down to the river and bring me back a basket of water."

The boy did as he was told, but all the water leaked out before he got back to the house.

The grandfather laughed and said, "You'll have to move a little faster next time,"
And sent him back to the river with the basket to try again

This time the boy ran faster, but again the basket was empty before he returned home.

Out of breath, he told his grandfather that it was impossible to carry water in a basket, and he went to get
a bucket instead.

The old man said, "I don't want a bucket of water; I want a basket of water.

You're just not trying hard enough," and he went out the door to watch the boy try again.

At this point, the boy knew it was impossible, but he wanted to show his grandfather that even if he ran as fast as he could, the water would leak out before he got back to the house.

The boy again dipped the basket into river and ran hard, but when he reached his grandfather, the basket was again empty.

Out of breath, he said, " See Grandpa, it's Useless!"

"So you Think it is Useless?" The old man said, "Look at the Basket."

“The boy looked at the BASKET and for the first time realized that the BASKET was different.

It had been transformed from a Dirty Old Coal Basket and was now clean, inside and out.

"Son, that's what happens when you read Guru Granth Sahib.

You Might Not Understand or Remember Everything, But When You Read it, you Will Be Changed, inside and out.

“That is the work of Waheguru in our lives"

 

[manas_ki_jaat]

I have read the whole thread and I am surprised to see the cat-fight over the issue raised by “wftw”. Even the most prominent members are included. Be calm. I have very little knowledge as compare to you people. But let me try to put some water on this hot topic.

1. 1) “wftw has given the name of this thread Ashamed to be sikh”. Let him/her be ashamed. I can bet that she/he have not read Sikhism completely. She/he has written that “Just like many of you, I was born and raised a Sikh. I have gone to Sikh Gurdwaras since an early age and sat in the sangat and absorbed the teachings of the "gurus." Now the point is if she/he would born in islam the title would have “Ashamed to be muslim” if she/he would born in Christian religion the title would have “Ashamed to be Christian”. So, according to me there should no fight on the title. Half knowledge of anything is dangerous.
2. 2) “wftw”, you raised questions on the historical events. So, let me tell you, almost every historical is having a controversy attached to it. You can pick any topic from history (Not necessarily related to any religion) and you’ll find controversies attached to it. You can never be certain about the past. Just for an example, pick up the topic of 9/11 you’ll find lots of controversies attached to it.
3. 3) Many of the members in this thread are suspicious about the old stories and some of you started giving evidence of those stories. What do you think a story is? Let me give the definition of a story. “A story may or may not be real, but story always point toward the truth. Story is just a signal toward the truth. Just like a sign board. Sign board shows you the way. But if you stand there and hold the sign board you can never reach to the destination. And sorry to say many of us are holding the sign and stood there instead of moving toward destination. In this context I am agree with “wftw” most of the people including granthi of gurudwaras are doing the same. But this is also truth that you can find these types of people in all the religions. Most of the followers are always wrong. So, don’t take decision which would based on the views of followers.
4. 4) If I say you that bring the evidence of hare and tortoise story you would certainly think me foolish. One can never bring the evidence of these stories. So, we must always be interested in morals. But some of the stories are recorded in history books with their dates of occurrence. So, you cannot deny from the fact that they really happened. You people are suspicious because these stories are told to us by lots of people over the years. Everybody told these stories according to their level of understanding. So, when one thing is told to us from lots of mouths there is always a strong chance of misinterpretation. That’s what happens to all the historical stories. So, before taking any decision in hurry its better to get the complete knowledge. And religion is such a vast subject and wftw you are just 23 and I advise you to spend some more time and don’t compare one religion with other because all are unique in their sense.
   
   
   
   

 

[sunmukh]

Interesting afternoon of speculation veer ji

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

I am pleased you found it interesting ji. It is indeed speculation. There is little that isn't speculation when it comes to debates on religion? As Guru Nanak Dev ji most pointedly points out so many find time to opinionate (including myself ).

ਕਥਨਾ ਕਥੀ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਤੋਿਟ ॥
kathnaa kathee na aavai tot.

There is no shortage of those who preach and teach.

ਕਿਥ ਕਿਥ ਕਥੀ ਕੋਟੀ ਕੋਿਟ ਕੋਿਟ ॥
kath kath kathee kotee kot kot.
Millions upon millions offer millions of sermons and stories.
​

​

Furthermore, all they do is think they know more than the next:

ਨਾਨਕ ਆਖਿਣ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਇਕ ਦੂ ਇਕੁ ਿਸਆਣਾ ॥
naanak aakhan sabh ko aakhai ik doo ik si-aanaa.

O Nanak, everyone speaks of Him, each one wiser than the rest.

​

​

Speculation is the bedrock of all religions. They are all founded upon opinion.

However once one is convinced of one's opinions then spiritual progress can be made on the spiritual ladder. One's mind state is completely changed when one firmly believes in a set of opinions:

ਮੰਨੇ ਕੀ ਗਿਤ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
mannay kee gat kahee na jaa-ay.
The state of the faithful cannot be described.
ਜੇ ਕੋ ਕਹੈ ਿਪਛੈ ਪਛੁਤਾਇ ॥
jay ko kahai pichhai pachhutaa-ay.

One who tries to describe this shall regret the attempt.

​

​

When "wftw ji" wrote of regurgitating bani, and rocking back and forth, he/she did not understand the state of mind of the one's with faith in what they do.
When he wrote of errors in history, he/she did not understand the state of mind of the one's who believed in it, whatever was told to them.

The same will apply to those who visit the Kaaba, or worship a stone, or believe in God having a son. It does not matter. All practices, including Sikh practices, are based on opinions but they become extremely useful to the ones who hold faith in them AND PRACTISE TRUTHFULLY. It is the practising that is often at fault. This leads to people noticing evidence of hypocrisy. SGGS is full of references to hypocrisy.

However when wftw ji wrote of lack of knowledge on part of granthis he/she did not seem to note that even gyanis are human. They are not necessarily perfect. They will form opinions and they will re-express them. Yet their faith in their opinions or perceptions fulfills their own minds needs, and what they re-express satisfies the needs of much of the attending sangat. The sangat reattends the following week and this is evidence of its satisfaction.

You have referred me to advice in Gurbani to seek the company of the sants.

The most holy is the Lord. There is no sant above or equal to the Lord. The place to find the Lord is within. His shrine is within, in the inner temple of the mind. In His Darbar, the sants, the siddhas, the demi-gods, the devtas, the angels all sing kirtan night and day. The naad resounds.

One will not necessarily find the holy sants sitting on the floor in the diwan hall of a gurdwara, and the knowledge or wisdom we often seek of gyanis does not have to be sought solely of them - instead we can find the Lord within, with His grace.

P130:

ਸੰਤ ਿਪਆਰੇ ਸਚੈ ਧਾਰੇ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪਾਵਿਣਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
sant pi-aaray sachai Dhaaray vadbhaagee darsan paavni-aa. ||1|| rahaa-o.
The Beloved Saints were established by the True Lord. By great good fortune, the
Blessed Vision of their Darshan is obtained. ||1||Pause||
ਸਾਿਧਕ ਿਸਧ ਿਜਸੈ ਕਉ ਿਫਰਦੇ ॥
saaDhik siDh jisai ka-o firday.
The One who is sought by the Siddhas and the seekers,
ਬਰ੍ਹਮੇ ਇੰਦਰ੍ ਿਧਆਇਿਨ ਿਹਰਦੇ ॥
barahmay indar Dhi-aa-in hirday.
upon whom Brahma and Indra meditate within their hearts,
ਕੋਿਟ ਤੇਤੀਸਾ ਖੋਜਿਹ ਤਾ ਕਉ ਗੁਰ ਿਮਿਲ ਿਹਰਦੈ ਗਾਵਿਣਆ ॥੨॥
kot tayteesaa khojeh taa ka-o gur mil hirdai gaavani-aa. ||2||
whom the three hundred thirty million demi-gods search for-meeting the Guru, one
comes to sing His Praises within the heart. ||2||
ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਤੁਧੁ ਜਾਪੇ ਪਵਨਾ ॥
aath pahar tuDh jaapay pavnaa.

Twenty-four hours a day, the wind breathes Your Name.

​

​

When we rise above opinionating upon others opinions, then we move away from duality, and move towards single-minded focus on the Creator. We may then with His grace, see His light in all opinions, whatever the opinons are. He is the source of all paths, or opinions expressed abou Him, whether they are expressed by Sikhs or by members of other faiths or their multiple sects.

I wish you and wftw ji well on your paths, and trust he will note he/she does not need to query the paths of fellow co-disciples, which are rooted in faith of their perceptions.Instead I hope he takes time to read and also reflect very, very deeply upon Gurus' wise words all found in SGGS ji. There is deep eternal truth found in SGGS ji, but when we look outwards our minds begins to wander. If we have faith in whatever we say we believe, then notions about others failures to be realistic about history and lack of religious knowledge of others, all falls by the wayside.
The same reason is why I brought up the ideas of nepotism and rituals in Sikhi. If someone looks for defects in others they will find them. If someone simply practices truthfully in what one believes, then it becomes insignificant and immaterial what others are up to. They simply merge into the background of creation and are seen as other facets of the Lord's great creation. What will matter to the Lord, I believe, is what one does, not what others do.

ਗੁਰਾ ਇਕ ਦੇਿਹ ਬੁਝਾਈ ॥
guraa ik dayhi bujhaa-ee.
The Guru has given me this one understanding:
ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸੋ ਮੈ ਿਵਸਿਰ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੫॥
sabhnaa jee-aa kaa ik daataa so mai visar na jaa-ee. ||5||

there is only the One, the Giver of all souls. May I never forget Him! ||5||

​

​

Sat Sri Akal

 

[spnadmin]

sunmukh ji

Here is a possible itinerary for the journey we may take, gur prasaad. In short, Guru Nanak is steering us away from earlier conceptions of how to find Naam. He steers us from the mistaken path of an introverted and self absorbed sadhana and into the path where all the threads of bhagati are tied together and join as one idea. He does this so that we do not mistake the highway for the destination.

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
aasaa mehalaa 1 ||
आसा महला १ ॥
Aasaa, First Mehl:

ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੋ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਰਾਤਾ ਰਾਮ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਰਾਮ ॥
maeraa mano maeraa man raathaa raam piaarae raam ||
मेरा मनो मेरा मनु राता राम पिआरे राम ॥
My mind, my mind is attuned to the Love of my Beloved Lord.

ਸਚੁ ਸਾਹਿਬੋ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਅਪਰੰਪਰੋ ਧਾਰੇ ਰਾਮ ॥
sach saahibo aadh purakh aparanparo dhhaarae raam ||
सचु साहिबो आदि पुरखु अपर्मपरो धारे राम ॥
The True Lord Master, the Primal Being, the Infinite One, is the Support of the earth.

ਅਗਮ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਅਪਰ ਅਪਾਰਾ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪਰਧਾਨੋ ॥
agam agochar apar apaaraa paarabreham paradhhaano ||
अगम अगोचरु अपर अपारा पारब्रहमु परधानो ॥
He is unfathomable, unapproachable, infinite and incomparable. He is the Supreme Lord God, the Lord above all.


ਆਦਿ ਜੁਗਾਦੀ ਹੈ ਭੀ ਹੋਸੀ ਅਵਰੁ ਝੂਠਾ ਸਭੁ ਮਾਨੋ ॥
aadh jugaadhee hai bhee hosee avar jhoothaa sabh maano ||
आदि जुगादी है भी होसी अवरु झूठा सभु मानो ॥
He is the Lord, from the beginning, throughout the ages, now and forevermore; know that all else is false.

ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਕੀ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕਿਉ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
karam dhharam kee saar n jaanai surath mukath kio paaeeai ||
करम धरम की सार न जाणै सुरति मुकति किउ पाईऐ ॥
If one does not appreciate the value of good deeds and Dharmic faith, how can one obtain clarity of consciousness and liberation?


ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਈਐ ॥੧॥
naanak guramukh sabadh pashhaanai ahinis naam dhhiaaeeai ||1||
नानक गुरमुखि सबदि पछाणै अहिनिसि नामु धिआईऐ ॥१॥
O Nanak, the Gurmukh realizes the Word of the Shabad; night and day, he meditates on the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||1||

ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੋ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਖਾਈ ਰਾਮ ॥
maeraa mano maeraa man maaniaa naam sakhaaee raam ||
मेरा मनो मेरा मनु मानिआ नामु सखाई राम ॥
My mind, my mind has come to accept, that the Naam is our only Friend.

ਹਉਮੈ ਮਮਤਾ ਮਾਇਆ ਸੰਗਿ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਰਾਮ ॥
houmai mamathaa maaeiaa sang n jaaee raam ||
हउमै ममता माइआ संगि न जाई राम ॥
Egotism, worldly attachment, and the lures of Maya shall not go with you.

ਮਾਤਾ ਪਿਤ ਭਾਈ ਸੁਤ ਚਤੁਰਾਈ ਸੰਗਿ ਨ ਸੰਪੈ ਨਾਰੇ ॥
maathaa pith bhaaee suth chathuraaee sang n sanpai naarae ||
माता पित भाई सुत चतुराई संगि न स्मपै नारे ॥
Mother, father, famliy, children, cleverness, property and spouses - none of these shall go with you.


ਸਾਇਰ ਕੀ ਪੁਤ੍ਰੀ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਤਿਆਗੀ ਚਰਣ ਤਲੈ ਵੀਚਾਰੇ ॥
saaeir kee puthree parehar thiaagee charan thalai veechaarae ||
साइर की पुत्री परहरि तिआगी चरण तलै वीचारे ॥
I have renounced Maya, the daughter of the ocean; reflecting upon reality, I have trampled it under my feet.

ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਇਕੁ ਚਲਤੁ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਸੋਈ ॥
aadh purakh eik chalath dhikhaaeiaa jeh dhaekhaa theh soee ||
आदि पुरखि इकु चलतु दिखाइआ जह देखा तह सोई ॥
The Primal Lord has revealed this wondrous show; wherever I look, there I see Him.

ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਛੋਡਉ ਸਹਜੇ ਹੋਇ ਸੁ ਹੋਈ ॥੨॥
naanak har kee bhagath n shhoddo sehajae hoe s hoee ||2||
नानक हरि की भगति न छोडउ सहजे होइ सु होई ॥२॥
O Nanak, I shall not forsake the Lord's devotional worship; in the natural course, what shall be, shall be. ||2||

ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੋ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਸਾਚੁ ਸਮਾਲੇ ਰਾਮ ॥
maeraa mano maeraa man niramal saach samaalae raam ||
मेरा मनो मेरा मनु निरमलु साचु समाले राम ॥
My mind, my mind has become immaculately pure, contemplating the True Lord.

ਅਵਗਣ ਮੇਟਿ ਚਲੇ ਗੁਣ ਸੰਗਮ ਨਾਲੇ ਰਾਮ ॥
avagan maett chalae gun sangam naalae raam ||
अवगण मेटि चले गुण संगम नाले राम ॥
I have dispelled my vices, and now I walk in the company of the virtuous.


ਅਵਗਣ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਕਰਣੀ ਸਾਰੀ ਦਰਿ ਸਚੈ ਸਚਿਆਰੋ ॥
avagan parehar karanee saaree dhar sachai sachiaaro ||
अवगण परहरि करणी सारी दरि सचै सचिआरो ॥
Discarding my vices, I do good deeds, and in the True Court, I am judged as true.

ਆਵਣੁ ਜਾਵਣੁ ਠਾਕਿ ਰਹਾਏ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤਤੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੋ ॥
aavan jaavan thaak rehaaeae guramukh thath veechaaro ||
आवणु जावणु ठाकि रहाए गुरमुखि ततु वीचारो ॥
My coming and going has come to an end; as Gurmukh, I reflect upon the nature of reality.


ਸਾਜਨੁ ਮੀਤੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ਸਖਾ ਤੂੰ ਸਚਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
saajan meeth sujaan sakhaa thoon sach milai vaddiaaee ||
साजनु मीतु सुजाणु सखा तूं सचि मिलै वडिआई ॥
O my Dear Friend, You are my all-knowing companion; grant me the glory of Your True Name.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਤਨੁ ਪਰਗਾਸਿਆ ਐਸੀ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥੩॥
naanak naam rathan paragaasiaa aisee guramath paaee ||3||
नानक नामु रतनु परगासिआ ऐसी गुरमति पाई ॥३॥
O Nanak, the jewel of the Naam has been revealed to me; such are the Teachings I have received from the Guru. ||3||


ਸਚੁ ਅੰਜਨੋ ਅੰਜਨੁ ਸਾਰਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਰਾਤਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
sach anjano anjan saar niranjan raathaa raam ||
सचु अंजनो अंजनु सारि निरंजनि राता राम ॥
I have carefully applied the healing ointment to my eyes, and I am attuned to the Immaculate Lord.


ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਜਗਜੀਵਨੋ ਦਾਤਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
man than rav rehiaa jagajeevano dhaathaa raam ||
मनि तनि रवि रहिआ जगजीवनो दाता राम ॥
He is permeating my mind and body, the Life of the world, the Lord, the Great Giver.


ਜਗਜੀਵਨੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਰਾਤਾ ਸਹਜਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਮੇਲਾਇਆ ॥
jagajeevan dhaathaa har man raathaa sehaj milai maelaaeiaa ||
जगजीवनु दाता हरि मनि राता सहजि मिलै मेलाइआ ॥
My mind is imbued with the Lord, the Great Giver, the Life of the world; I have merged and blended with Him, with intuitive ease.


ਸਾਧ ਸਭਾ ਸੰਤਾ ਕੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਨਦਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
saadhh sabhaa santhaa kee sangath nadhar prabhoo sukh paaeiaa ||
साध सभा संता की संगति नदरि प्रभू सुखु पाइआ ॥
In the Company of the Holy, and the Saints' Society, by God's Grace, peace is obtained.

ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਰਤੇ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਚੂਕੇ ਮੋਹ ਪਿਆਸਾ ॥
har kee bhagath rathae bairaagee chookae moh piaasaa ||
हरि की भगति रते बैरागी चूके मोह पिआसा ॥
The renunciates remain absorbed in devotional worship to the Lord; they are rid of emotional attachment and desire.


ਨਾਨਕ ਹਉਮੈ ਮਾਰਿ ਪਤੀਣੇ ਵਿਰਲੇ ਦਾਸ ਉਦਾਸਾ ॥੪॥੩॥
naanak houmai maar patheenae viralae dhaas oudhaasaa ||4||3||
नानक हउमै मारि पतीणे विरले दास उदासा ॥४॥३॥
O Nanak, how rare is that unattached servant, who conquers his ego, and remains pleased with the Lord. ||4||3||


I sometimes do find company of sadhsangat. If it can happen for me it can happen for almost anyone.
Good luck on your journey also.

 

[spnadmin]

Guru di beti ji

How wonderful that story is. Yet it stirs debate. The meaning is transparent. I have read it many times before, and never tire of Thanks for telling it.

 

[findingmyway]

Dear seeker3k ji,
I feel unfairly chastised and I will explain why.

The religion is not what is written in the holly books. It is what the person lives by.

I disagree here. Do you judge a university by how they teach or by how many students actully bother to pay attention to the teachings? Students being seduced by partying rather than learning is not the fault of the university! The failure to follow the Guru's teachings is human failure, not a fault in the Guru.

As we see there are many inconsistencies in every religion.
We Sikhs always put other religion down so that we can look good.

I have friends of many faiths and never put them down. I have been disowned by a Christian friend as I could not be saved by Christ but I won't judge Christianity on that episode. In my 1st post I emphasised how I do not judge other faiths by the wrongs carried out in those faiths name by the minority of people. I have my beliefs and will present them when challenged or asked-not otherwise. I respect other religions as long as they do no harm on others.

We feel proud when we listen the stories of magic performed by our Gurus.
I don’t think any scientist test the hand mark on the stone. As Dilbirk claim that Sikhism is the only logical religion in the world. He failed to explain where is the logic in these stories. As a Sikhs I can not question any thing in our religion. Every this is said no matter how ideological the story it has to be true. As Mai Ji pointed it out.

I most definitely DO NOT feel proud to see stories of miracles as they are unbelievable and against gurmat teaching. If you look at my list of links on page 9, I included at least 1 where the popular janamsakhis are challenged. I have battled with the Gurdwara committe as I refuse to teach those stories to kids. I encourage the kids in the Gurdwara to question as otherwise they will not understand adn learn. I am a scientist so am forever questioning as you will see from many of my posts. I focus on the Guru Granth Sahib Ji's teachings which cannot be refuted or belittled as they are watertight rather than the history as history's authenticaation is not watertight. I think Mai Ji was being sarcastic in her post!

I have asked many questions like these but always I was put down by all.
One was Nanak had great idea, what went wrong and what can be done about it.

Not by me. I'm sorry if you have been out down. Guru Nanak Dev Ji's teachings are amazing. The problem lies in the fact that the majority of Sikhs aren't following them anymore. That is the panth's fault, not Guru Nanak Dev Ji's. Sikhi is a mess at the moment-I admit that but the teachings are so amazing that I am trying very hard to do my bit to raise awareness at Gurdwara and here so people take note and change. Please continue to question. The obejction to the original post was not the questions but the way they were phrased-with intent to insult rather than learn. Also using incorrect examples from other religions, eg saying other religions do no teach their history as fact is wrong. Some states in America have had legal cases about whether evolution should be taught in schools as it goes against the creation story in the Bible. I can give loads of other examples but if raising a point then it should at least be well thought out.

Couple of the people reply only to say that Hindus are creaping into to Sikhism to corrupt it.
WE can not take the responsibility that we are the one who are corrupting our religion.

Correct partly. Brahmanical influences have crept in over the past 100 years that go against the teachings in the SGGSJ. This is the fault of the infiltrators and of Sikhs who fail to understand and follow the teachings so have allowed adulteration of the teachings. We should also take responsibility to correct the damage. Just criticising achieves nothing. Be proactive and polite. Insults are not going to achieve anything except alienation. If criticising, you should also be teaching the correct interpretation otherwise again you achieve nothing exept ill feeling. If you look at my post on page 9, I spent hours collecting links to address the points raised as they are issues.

Nanak did not tell us in of his poetry to do any rituals. Yet we are doing more rituals then Hindus. Every day new ritual is creeping in to Sikhs thanks to the granthies and khatha watch. There is no will by SGPC. The publick are accepting what what the rigis are telling us. No one allowed to question the khatha watch to explain what he is saying.

I question constantly! Questioning takes guts. Yes I sometimes get told i'm out of line but I also get people thinking. I refuse to do anything ritualistic and will happily explain why if someone asks me. The things I follow are the ones I understand. Rituals are against the Guru's teaching and it is upto those who have understood this to educate others around them. Again just criticising achieves nothing and is very negative way to behave. Change can occur in a positive way with a positive attitude depending on how things are approached. Th rituals have crept in over 100 years and may take 100 years to eradicate completely! In my post on page 9 I have included some links relating to issues raised and will happily provide more if required.

No one here is admitting that Sikhism is full of stupid retiuals but they are very quickie to rip apaer the person who ask question.
Please read the post again (seeker9,findingmyway dilbik) and kindly reply to the question. You are killing the messenger.

Incorrect. I have always admitted there are issues in many of my posts across this site. Reread my posts, especially the 1st one on this thread as I sympathised with the writer. I have always been very civil and tried to be considerate. I even spent hours collecting a list of threads relelvant to all the issues raised by ***tw but he has never returned to comment! I said in my posts that these issues are important and I was not rude. However, his language could have been kinder initially but I am still keen to hear his views further. In absence of body language we have to make do with phrasing and choice of words to relay intent.

MY warning to wftw is be-carefull many are sharpening their daggers.

Please read my posts again and let me know where it appears this is so, so that I can make sure I don't come across like that again. Guru Nanak Dev Ji taught me to respect all and I am trying very hard to do this but it should be mutual! If I have come across as rude or unwelcoming, or have declined to acknowledge his/her concerns I would be grateful if you could let me know as only then can I change myself for the better.

Jasleen.

 

[findingmyway]

In my own humble opinion this is most probably the reason that there are no shabds from 6th,
7th, 8th or 10th Guru Sahiban in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

The 6th and 7th Guru's did not write any bani as lots of fake bani was published under their name of mahalla 6 or mahalla 7 during their lifetime. By not writing any bani, Sikhs then did not have to fear reading the wrong thing and the Guru's were smart enough to foil the plans of these imposters.

The 8th Guru was very young when he became Guru. He died after 3 years so did not have time to write any bani as he was so busy in caring for people affected by the smallpox epidemic.

As for Guru Gobind Singh Ji-who knows! Maybe he felt the Guru Granth Sahib was complete or maybe he was too busy with the war. My personal opinion is the former but only he knows!!

 

[a.mother]

The 6th and 7th Guru's did not write any bani as lots of fake bani was published under their name of mahalla 6 or mahalla 7 during their lifetime. By not writing any bani, Sikhs then did not have to fear reading the wrong thing and the Guru's were smart enough to foil the plans of these imposters.

The 8th Guru was very young when he became Guru. He died after 3 years so did not have time to write any bani as he was so busy in caring for people affected by the smallpox epidemic.

As for Guru Gobind Singh Ji-who knows! Maybe he felt the Guru Granth Sahib was complete or maybe he was too busy with the war. My personal opinion is the former but only he knows!!

Dear findingmyway ji ,
I admire your knowledge, and I just want to say thanks to you.,

 

[Seeker9]

No one here is admitting that Sikhism is full of stupid retiuals but they are very quickie to rip apaer the person who ask question. Please read the post again (seeker9,findingmyway dilbik) and kindly reply to the question. You are killing the messenger.

Always nice to get a mention!

Dear Seeker3k Ji

I didn't think I shot the messenger and I thought I did reply to the questions but happy to discuss further if you want to copy to me what I have said

The religion is not what is written in the holly books. It is what the person lives by.

I believe Findingmyway Ji has already commented on this...but I would say it is not unknown for a religion to be judged by the actions of some of its followers, like Islam for example....but I also think the religion needs to be discussed on its teachings and not how those teachings are interpreted, molded and frequently distorted by its "followers"

MY warning to wftw is be-carefull many are sharpening their daggers.

Hmmnn...so everyone should agree without debate and expressing alternative viewpoints??? Looking back on this thread, it is clear to me that the majority of posters disagree with the original poster of this thread....those people have as much right to do so as WTWF has to raise concerns...and it has been a very interesting thread so I would thank (again as I did in my first reply) WTWF for starting this discussion

 

[Seeker9]

OK - So then, in your humble opinion, how should the gurgaddi have been passed? And who should have judged that it landed in the right place.

I do not wish to stir controversy or go off at a tangent on this thread
I cannot answer the above question
But I think the point Sunmukh Ji raises is an interesting one

At a surface level, could it be said there appears to be an element of "keeping it in the family"?

Could it also be said that the 8th Guru stands out from the other Gurus by virtue of his young age?

I have two sons aged 6 and 10 respectively and wonder how one so young could shoulder such a great responsibility


Again I don't know the answers....just wondering what others think...and it is tangenital to this thread so apologies for that .... if it merits more detailed discussion, perhaps it could be moved to a new thread?

 

[findingmyway]

Could it also be said that the 8th Guru stands out from the other Gurus by virtue of his young age?

I have two sons aged 6 and 10 respectively and wonder how one so young could shoulder such a great responsibility

I think the actions of Guru Har Krishan Ji answers this questions without any explanation. Despite his young age, Guru Ji looked after the smallpox victims with utmost devotion-not normal behaviour for a boy. He was also very intelligent and understood Gurbani well.

As for staying within the family, the gurgaddi was not always passed to the eldest son as expected but jumped around the family tree and across generations. I think this proves that it was based on who was most appropriate for the task.

This thread may be of interest, especially Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji's reply
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-gurus/27443-gurgaddi-questions.html

Any further questions based on gurgaddi, please start a new thread so we can stay to topic here. Thanks, Jasleen

 

[Seeker9]

Thank you
I have opened a new thread to explore this further
rangesingh:

 

[spnadmin]

Guru Gobind Singh liberated the panth when he vested ethical leadership in granth and panth. This means Guru Gobind Singh concluded that principles would take the place of personalities, and governing by consensus would take the place of individual will. That was a very modern decision existing in few other places in his world. In light of this, IMHO, nepotism fails as an issue, and to continue discussiong it is like beating a dead horse.

Future comments should be on the topic of the thread.

 

[iaminpunjab]

Doojay di thali vich laddoo vadda dikhda hai

the same thing applies to wftw. instead of appreciating sikhism, which has been appreciated by several great scholars (www.sikhquotes.org) as the greatest, modern and practical religion. wftw feels ashamed to be a sikh. then what about all other religions like christianity and islam and hinduism? all are based on lies. even their scriptures contain lot of lies. but sikh scripture guru granth sahib has been appreciated by all scholars, specially by english (christian) scholars. sikhism means guru granth sahib, and not sakhis told by granthis.

wftw should feel ashamed that he has not read guru granth sahib. and by just by a small reading of granthi sakhis, he has made conclusions.

wftw is surely a anari, nausikhia, amature and neem hakeem. little knowledge is dangerous. he knows very less and his conclusions are really baseless. instead of believing in sakhis, he should start reading guru granth sahib, which is real sikhi.

in christianity, christ was born without a father. is it not a lie?

in islam, koran is full of lies and full of hatred, where they call kafirs to everybody except muslims. they are told that they will enter into heaven once they die or commit suicide by killing others in the name of islam. they will get hoors (beautiful women) in heaven. but do they say that woman suicide bombers will get several men for sex in heaven?

hinduism scriptures like ramayan and mahabharat are full of lies, where sons are born to queens by just eating fruits, or by just gazed upon by rishis. there are countless lies.

there is an audio by vir bhupinde singh (sanjha pita - common father), where he says that instead of going to other religions, we should understand our own religion (sikhism), because by going to other religions, we will be more confused as they have more lies than sikhism. then the person going to other religions will be like a "dhobi da kutta na ghar da, na ghat da).

it is well said that all sakhis were written by muslim and hindus, who believe in lies, miracles, chamatkars as their own religions are full of these. so they wrote all these sakhis in their own style.

JUST READ AND UNDERSTAND GURU GRANTH SAHIB AND NOT SAKHIS. YOU WILL REALLY KNOW SIKHISM, TO WHICH ALL THE WORLD IS APPRECIATING.

If anyone wants the mp3 of sanjha pita, pl mail me personal email has been removed. This is not a safe Internet practice. Members may contact through SPN private messages.

THANKS AND GOD BLESS